once saved always saved

LouisBooth · Dec 31, 2001

Sure ben here we go...
"Col1:21-23" Ummm...no where do I see in this passage about loosing your salvation. It just talks about not falling away from doing what is right, ie fufilling what God has planned for you.

"Gal5:4" Umm..if you are justifiing yourself by the law, then you are never saved in the first place. Just read 2:26

This doesn't say anything about loosing your salvation when you read the book of galatians and take this verse in context.

"1Tim4:1"

umm...where does that say loose your salvation? If you abandon your faith, was it God given? Nope

hence not REAL faith. What is Paul talking about here? He is talking about mixing of the message with worldly things. He is talking about correcting others to keep them right with God. Read verse 7.

"Heb2:1-3, 3:12-14"

The first passage in chapter 2 talks about drifting away not loosing your salvation, in other words becoming a useless soldier in God's army. Again in the second passage it is refering to the same thing. You can be rebelous when you're a christian, that doesn't mean you loose your faith, if its true faith.

"2Pet2:20-22 " This is refering to people who hear the message but turn away from it. That is not talking about loosing salvation either

"James 5:19-20 " Umm..nothing about loosing salvation here either. It talks about turning a sinner. Now read what the passage is all about in verse 15. It talks about a sinner asking for forgivness of their sins, Christians do that, that doesn't mean they loose salvation. There is no implication of a death being death in hell.

"2Jn2:8-9 " In verse 8 it is talking about working in christ. In verse 9 he is switching topics in a way. He isn't refering to the same people. Still again no mention of loosing salvation.
On..on a side not, 2nd John only has one chapter so I asuumed you ment 1:8-9 and not 2:8-9.

"And Heb 6, "It is impossible to restore them to repentance WHILE THEY ARE FALLING AWAY"

Yes but as 1 John puts it, "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin'the one who was born of God keeps him save, and the evil one cannot harm him. We sin, but they are forgiven already, it was taken care of at the cross. We cannot loose our salvation once we have it.

Robin46 · Jan 4, 2002

There once was a man who adopted a son. He loved the boy as his own. He fed him, cared for him and granted to him everything he had as the boy's inheritance. The family was very happy, because the boy was no longer an orphan, but had a loving family.

Many years went by and one day the son left home. Not only did he leave home, he turned from his father's teachings and walked away. He thought he could make it on his own. He didn't need his father or his inheiritance.

The father watched him go. With tears in his eyes he watched his son walk away.

Is this young man still the man's son? Did his disrespect and doubt change the legality of the adoption?

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Someday the son will find his way back home. And the father will be there with open arms. Once you are adopted you're adopted and for good or bad, you are part of the family.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Robin

Robin46 · Jan 4, 2002

egads...it's everywhere...SOOOO sorry!

Robin46 · Jan 4, 2002

deleted...double post

Robin46 · Jan 4, 2002

sorry for double post

epobre · Jan 5, 2002

Robin,

How do you explain 1 Cor. 5:13?

Ed

Robin46 · Jan 5, 2002

1Cr 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Hello Ed,

I think it means everyone will be judged according to his actions. And that those brethren who refuse to turn from evil ways should be avoided. It goes with 5:5.

Now, what do you do with :

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father

And what do you do with my originial question?

Is the boy still the man's son?

Blessings,
Robin

epobre · Jan 5, 2002

Robin,

You wrote:

I think it means everyone will be judged according to his actions. And that those brethren who refuse to turn from evil ways should be avoided. It goes with 5:5.

You missed the point Robin. The point is, the belief that "once you are saved, you are always saved" is FALSE. Verse 12 talks of TWO groups of people - those who are OUTSIDE and those who are INSIDE. Apostle Paul was talking to people who are INSIDE the church or MEMBERS of the church of Christ.

Those who are INSIDE have been redeemed by the blood of Christ (Col. 1:13-14) and have been sealed with the spirit of promise (Eph. 1:13-14). Having been redeemed by Christ's blood, they have received ADOPTION as sons or children of God (Gal. 4:4-6) and as sons, are no longer slaves but sons, and if sons, HEIRS of God through Christ (Gal. 4:7).

People who are OUTSIDE are NOT members of the church of Christ and are APART from Christ, being aliens from the commonwelth of Israel and strangers from the cvenants of promise, having NO HOPE and WITHOUT GOD in the world (Eph. 2:12).

1 Cor. 5:13 PROVES that members of the church of Christ can LOSE their hope for eternal life if they persist in their evil ways and are PUT OUTSIDE the church or EXPELLED.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father

And what do you do with my originial question?

Is the boy still the man's son?

From men's point of view, the boy is still the man's son. However, from the Bible's point of view, Gal. 4:7-11 tell us that one could lose adoption as a child of God and return to the bondage of sin.

Ed

Robin46 · Jan 5, 2002

Dear Ed,

Ok, so what did Jesus mean, and to whom was He referring when He said:

Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

When Our Lord Jesus died on the Cross of Calvary.... where were the 'sheep'?

According to the Word, they denied Him. They left. They ran away. Where they not still His sheep at that very moment of their denial of Him, either by word (Peter) or deed (the others)?

How does one 'stop being' a sheep?
You either are or you are not a sheep.
Just as you are either adopted as a son or you are not.

Blessings,
Robin

Marillyn · Jan 5, 2002

Who could withold from God what He has already paid for?

We are not our own--we are bought with a price....kicking and flailing doesn't change that.

God made heaven and earth and is making all things new....everything beautiful in His time.

The only ones who will not be saved are those who Christ did not die for....those who are not included in "all" or "everything".

ZoneChaos · Jan 6, 2002

being saved can lose that hope of salvation if he remains wicked

First, "being saved" would denote a process. Salvation is a decision. It is instantaneous.

Second, think about your interpretation there. If a person is saved, then by the decision of salvation aren't they in fact turning from their wicked life, in order to follow Christ as Lord of thier life?

Marillyn · Jan 6, 2002

to the same extent that a seed decides to grow.

ZoneChaos · Jan 6, 2002

Not Rally, Marillyn. Human omprehensions is much more than a seeds.

It isn't to the extent of as eed deciding to grow.. is is much more beyond that.

There must be a desire to surrender, a willful change of heart, and a faih in the life you are choosing.

Marillyn · Jan 6, 2002

Z, you can't do any of that yourself. Man can't even come to the Truth unless the Father draws him. It is God that works in man to will and to do His good pleasure. God gives the increase after He has sent the rain (given every man a measure of faith) and shone the light. Man cannot do squat even though he tries to take the credit for it.

A physical baby has no control over when he will be conceived or born---neither does the spiritual baby.

ZoneChaos · Jan 7, 2002

Z, you can't do any of that yourself.

I understand that Marillyn but a seed has no chance of acceptoing salvation, unless oyu meant "seed" in a metphorical sense.

A physical baby has no control over when he will be conceived or born---neither does the spiritual baby.

This is true, but a person who knows right form wrong and is capable of undestanding that, is responsible for accepting or rejecting God.

A baby cannot, but a man can.

I never claimed that I could save myself. I know that only God can. But i must desire it. I must want it. I must wil to love God. Tha is the part I have to do on my own. I have to want God's Love. Gdo will work in my life to reveal who He is. God will show a man what love is, and what truth is, but the decision to accept is is ours, not God's. God making that decision fo rus, is border-line rape of the soul. Your statement I was repsonding to, suggested that man has no more control over his destiny than a seed. That's a bunch of crap(couldn't think of more fitting word there, sorry). It is our decision to accept of reject what God has given us. It is our responsibility to desire to accept or reject our destiny God has laid out for us. The rest, God will do, but we have to allow Him to do it. Thats the rules of the game. God will not force a victory over our soul.. we have to want to win first, before God will help us win.

If you truly think that God decides this for us, then I am afraid that you may never know the truth until it is too late.

Marillyn · Jan 7, 2002

I understand that Marillyn but a seed has no chance of acceptoing salvation, unless oyu meant "seed" in a metphorical sense.

Of course, I meant seed in a metaphorical sense just like Jesus did when He said the seed is the Word.

The life of the seed is within it (the embryo). It must lay dormant until the fullness of time.when it starts swelling, and bursts out of the seed body that has held it captive in darkness.

This is true, but a person who knows right form wrong and is capable of undestanding that, is responsible for accepting or rejecting God.

A person cannot know right from wrong without understanding.
And when a person does know right from wrong, he IS saved. It is knowing the truth that sets us free! Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

A baby cannot, but a man can.

True. A baby cannot, so he is not held accountable. A son learns .and a man knows.

I never claimed that I could save myself. I know that only God can. But i must desire it. I must want it. I must wil to love God. Tha is the part I have to do on my own.

Who gives you the desires of your heart?
Who brings the famine so that you will hunger and thirst for righteousness?
Who does the work in you to will and to do His good pleasure?

All that you are, all that you have, all that you ever hope to be, you owe to the good work that God has begun in you and will continue until the day of the Lord.

You cant do squat.

I have to want God's Love.

If you have to have something, that is a need---God will supply every need---even the desires of your heart..even the famine and wandering through dry land to cause you to hunger and thirst for righteousness..even bringing you low so that you call out for Him and are saved. YOU cannot supply your own needs.

Gdo will work in my life to reveal who He is.

Yes, and part of that work that He will do is to give you the desire, the hunger and thirst for righteousness so that He can fill it.

You part? 2Cr 8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, [it is] accepted according to that a man hath, [and] not according to that he hath not.

(He does that, too, by breaking your will.)

God will show a man what love is, and what truth is, but the decision to accept is is ours, not God's. God making that decision fo rus, is border-line rape of the soul.

Gods will is that none should perish. He does not surrender His will to man, but vice versa.
Was it borderline rape when He appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus?

Your statement I was repsonding to, suggested that man has no more control over his destiny than a seed. That's a bunch of crap(couldn't think of more fitting word there, sorry).

Call it what you will. Man only thinks he has some control when man is deceived, believing he is God. God is in control. Thats part of the God job description.

If He is not in control, then we should find the one who is and trust that one.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him WHO WORKETH ALL THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL: Unless your will comes into line with His will, yours will not be done.

It is our decision to accept of reject what God has given us.

Do you honestly believe your word will prevail against Gods will?
Do you honestly believe you can oppose God successfully?

It is our responsibility to desire to accept or reject our destiny God has laid out for us. The rest, God will do, but we have to allow Him to do it.

We have to allow God? Do you honestly think God needs permission to do what He wants to with His creation? Do you think you are your own that you can make your own decisions? Were you not bought with a price?

Thats the rules of the game. God will not force a victory over our soul.. we have to want to win first, before God will help us win.

Thats the game of the carnal mind (which is enmity against God) that sits in Gods temple 1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? claiming the power and authority to govern his own life.

If you truly think that God decides this for us, then I am afraid that you may never know the truth until it is too late.

When you know the perfect love of God, you will no longer be afraidfor me or for anyone else. 1Jo 4:18 - There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

You will understand that we are in the process of being conformed into His image. He does all things well..it just doesnt seem that way to the carnal mind.

What seems to be evil is merely the carnal perception of Gods good work in process. Isa 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

When you stop eating from the tree of knowledge of good AND evil, you will see that the evil was only your vain imagination. God really is in control. He knows what He is doing. He is making all things beautiful---but Hes doing it in His time, not yours. Until you see the whole picture, you cannot render righteous judgment. Until then, its best to withhold judgment.

The gospel is not just good tidings of great joy to a few people but to all people.
{I] Lu 2:10 - And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I BRING YOU GOOD TIDINGS OF GREAT JOY, WHICH SHALL BE TO ALL PEOPLE.

Ps 72:17 - His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: ALL NATIONS SHALL CALL HIM BLESSED.

Isa 52:10 - The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH SHALL SEE THE SALVATION OF OUR GOD.

Jer 3:17 - At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; AND ALL THE NATIONS SHALL BE GATHERED UNTO IT, TO THE NAME OF THE LORD, TO JERUSALEM: NEITHER SHALL THEY WALK ANY MORE AFTER THE IMAGINATION OF THEIR EVIL HEART.

Joe 2:28 - And it shall come to pass afterward, THAT I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT UPON ALL FLESH; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Ac 2:17 - And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I WILL POUR OUT OF MY SPIRIT UPON ALL FLESH: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
[/i]

ZoneChaos · Jan 7, 2002

And when a person does know right from wrong, he IS saved.

No no no no no! Not at all. That is saying that any non-chrsitian murderer doe snot know right form wrong. That anyone who rejects God is not wring in thier sin. Don;t beleive that lie you just said in the previous post.

Knowing right from Wroing will not save you. Knowing who Chrsit is and why He came to eareth will not save you.

If it did, Satan would be a born again Christian. Satan knows right from wrong. Satan knows Jesus Christ.

Knowing right from wrong does not save a person.

True. A baby cannot, so he is not held accountable. A son learns .and a man knows.

But in your analogy, you equated a man to a seed...

"Man decides his salvation...to the same extent that a seed decides to grow." A seed does not decide to grow.. and thus you seem to think that a man doe snot decide to accept salvation. I wholeheartily disagree with that statement. A man does know, unlike this "see" of yours, and a man must decide.

Who gives you the desires of your heart?

Knowing the truth that God loves me. (This knowledge will not save me.)

Who brings the famine so that you will hunger and thirst for righteousness?

God presents Himself to me, that I might know Him. (This does not save me.)

Who does the work in you to will and to do His good pleasure?

God does, so that I might choose to follow him. And in choosing to follow Him, I accept the Gift of salvation. (That is what saves me.

You cant do squat.

To save myself? No I can't. To accept the salvation? I must believe and have faith.

If you have to have something, that is a need---God will supply every need---even the desires of your heart..even the famine and wandering through dry land to cause you to hunger and thirst for righteousness..even bringing you low so that you call out for Him and are saved. YOU cannot supply your own needs.

Ture, and I agree. BUt if I do not want salvation, God will not give it to me.

Gods will is that none should perish. He does not surrender His will to man, but vice versa.

These is a difference between wanting us to accept Salvation and forcing us to acept salvation. He could will the later, but out of love, He wills the former. His will for us to be saved is part of His will that we choose Him. "God wills that none should perish" is not saying that no man will perish becasue God doe snot want man to perish. What it is saying is that GOd wants us to choose to Love Him an choose salvation. God will not force us into that choice, however. The Bible and God specifically is very clear that there will be those who reject God. This doe snot mean they have overcome the will of God. This means they have rejected God, even though He still wills for them not to. The Bible is also clear that Though God wills that none shall perish.. one day he will harden the hearts of possibly billions of poeple, and they will then miss thier chance at salvation.

Was it borderline rape when He appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus?

No. God did not force Saul to choose salvation. If God said "I don;t care if you want ot be saved or not, I am going to anyway... that would be wrong. If a man rejects God, God will not save Him.

Call it what you will. Man only thinks he has some control when man is deceived, believing he is God. God is in control. Thats part of the God job description. If He is not in control, then we should find the one who is and trust that one.

Without our choice to Love God, our reason for existance does not exist.

God made us for one reason only: To love Him. After the fall, that ability waqs lost to us, and is only available through Him. Our reason for existing is still to Love God, but as you said, we can;t do that on our own. For some, they qwill never Love God as He loves Us. They won't becasue they will never accept the Love He gives us in the first place.

If God wanted to create a robot, then why didn;t he? God gave us the ability to choose. The ability to freely accept or reject Him. He did so, so that we woulf accept Him or our freewill, not His. That ois God's will: that we use our freewill over our lives to accept Him and give our lives to him.

Do you honestly believe your word will prevail against Gods will?

No. But it is not God;'s will that I be saved, if I don't want o be. It is God;'s wil that I be saved. If I do not want salvation, He will grant me my choice, even though He doe snot will it. I cannot change his will. I can change the outcome of where I will end up.

Do you honestly believe you can oppose God successfully?

Hmm.. me personally? no I do not. Also, if you mean by siccessful, as denying GOd, rejecting God's gift of salvation, and on day going to Hell, away from the presence of God for eternity, then Yes I think a man has the option in his future. BUt rejecting God is already the path man is headed. Man doe snot choose death.. death is man's nature. It is man;'s inaction of acceptin salvation, both willingly, and not, that will get him to hell, despite God's desire that Man should be would be saved. At the very last second.. God will not say "..well, I know you have rejected me gift of salvation, and i know you deserve Hell becasue of that, but.. what the heck, even though you don;t want me, I will force you to Love me."

God will alloow those who do not choose to follow Him to be damned for eternity. He has to. The damned are, by nature, evil, and sinful, and canot exist with God. If they do not accept the salvation form that Death, they have no where else to go.

We have to allow God? Do you honestly think God needs permission to do what He wants to with His creation?

Specifically mankind? And specifically to being saved form our nature? Yes.

Do you think you are your own that you can make your own decisions?

God gave me that power as a man to make my own decisions.

Were you not bought with a price?

Yes, I was... but, inthe context of this debate, specifically, my reservation to salvation was bought with a price... but I must still show up for dinner. You see.. the onse who were bought are the ones that will choose to accept Salvation. NOw, Chrsit death was for all to have that option of salvation.. but only those who acepot salvation will be / were / are bought. The rest, though the reservation for their life was made, will simply not show up to claim it. This doe not invalidate the work Jesus did for them and for thier life, but it does invalidate the fullfillment of that work for their life.

Thats the game of the carnal mind (which is enmity against God) that sits in Gods temple 1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? claiming the power and authority to govern his own life.

Does that verse refer to a Chrstian? Or to both a Christian and a non-Christian? he worls is full of temples.. but the One true GOd is not always worshipped in them. As it is with us. Only those who invite Chrsit into thier life, are temples of God. The rest are hollow shells of dirt.

LouisBooth · Jan 8, 2002

"A person cannot know right from wrong without understanding. "
Umm..mar, all people know right from wrong, that's why adam and eve got thrown out.

"Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. "

that is talking about the truth of christ being the savior and through his blood we are saved. You're taking things out of context again and using a wierd, wacky, way out in left field interpretation.

Marillyn · Jan 8, 2002

Eve didn't know right from wrong---she was seeking wisdom.
Adam knew....that's the reason he was not deceived.

If everyone already knew right and wrong, everyone would agree.

LouisBooth · Jan 8, 2002

"Eve didn't know right from wrong---she was seeking wisdom.
Adam knew....that's the reason he was not deceived."

Bull pucky. Both knew of right and wrong. They both ate of the tree.

"If everyone already knew right and wrong, everyone would agree. "

:lol: umm..not everyone agrees God is God either, but according to the word it has been made know. You're restircting something to humans that is beyond human. All people have a knowledge of good and evil. That's bibilcal.

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