True Religion (tm)

Uphill Battle · Jun 7, 2007

Scripture states:

James 1:27
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

now, with forgiveness asked of RC and EO, as they will likely have the finger pointed at them most often for this, but most other protestant denominations are quite guilty of it too,

If what God our Father accepts as pure and faultless religion is to take care of orphans and widows, and to not be polluted, are we not getting it wrong with the current level of religiousity(word?) that we are portraying?

kneel, here, take three steps and genuflect, repeat after the priest/pastor... offer penance, etc... etc... ad nauseum.

It doesn't really matter what denomination or practice it is, are we not participating in Religious rituals that God does not consider pure and faultless?

If one did nothing more than take care of widows and orphans, and keep from being polluted (as best he or sh can) does ANY of the other stuff even remotely matter?

what do you think?

Rowan · Jun 7, 2007

Are you assuming that the two are mutually exclusive

Uphill Battle · Jun 7, 2007

Rowan said:
Are you assuming that the two are mutually exclusive

I'm asking what, if any, benifit a flurry of religious ritual serve, when we have from scripture what God considers "True Religion"

Rowan · Jun 7, 2007

Oh, ok. Sure, it means nothing if we do not take care of our brothers. Jesus said to resolve our differences before going to the Temple. In the Divine Liturgy, the priest calls us to love one another so that we may confess "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," as if implying that if we didn't, we could not confess our God in spirit and in truth.

You have complaints* with me as far as that is concerned But you seem to imply that the prostrations and everything were empty in of themselves, regardless of the states of hearts and the reason we're doing it. I'd disagree with that.

*edit -- that was supposed to say "no complaints"...sorry.

Uphill Battle · Jun 7, 2007

Rowan said:
Oh, ok. Sure, it means nothing if we do not take care of our brothers. Jesus said to resolve our differences before going to the Temple. In the Divine Liturgy, the priest calls us to love one another so that we may confess "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," as if implying that if we didn't, we could not confess our God in spirit and in truth.

You have complaints with me as far as that is concerned But you seem to imply that the prostrations and everything were empty in of themselves, regardless of the states of hearts and the reason we're doing it. I'd disagree with that.

nah, it isn't that any practice is empty, I am sure many many of them are heatfelt. However, there is much ballyhoo about those who do NOT do one thing or another. If I chose to do nothing more than what this verse in James says, and ignored form, and ritual, etc... never once genuflected, or crossed self, or knelt at an altar, or lit a candle, etc...

Is my righteousness (or lack therof) any less or more than that as one who has performed EVERY ritual according to their denomination, heartfelt or no?

Rafael · Jun 8, 2007

Don't let tradition distract or be a point where you become guilty of condemning tradition. Let it have its place in the hearts of others as only they and God can know - "belieiving all things" or giving the benefit of the doubt through love. If we have the conviction to serve by going to the widows and orphans, then that is a conviction special to ourselves, revealed to us in His word. Other portions of scripture imply we are to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick with fellowship, give shelter to the stranger, and to be rich in our lives with good deeds. I agree that we should all obey His Word, but each person has a special gift and calling to do these things, some greater than others, remembering the Widow's mite in giving (Mr 12:42-44).
Tradition for an hour a week may mean a lot to someone else, as does a special song to another. I look at it like Paul instructs in 1 Corinthians. We are not to insult others with our freedom from law, tradition or anything else we consider ourselves to be free from. We let God and the Holy spirit do work through our love and kindness. If we do not take into our lives (eat) the things others think they must, we cannot hurt others with our freedom. We do better by encouraging others to obey God's word in a positive manner, especially by going ahead and showing them instead of telling them only with words. Actions are forceful and convincing. I know my life was changed by one man that did the things He talked about and invited me along to help. I went with Him. Thanks to Jesus, Norm, and Debbie

1 Cor 8:8 It’s true that we can’t win God’s approval by what we eat. We don’t lose anything if we don’t eat it, and we don’t gain anything if we do.
9 But you must be careful so that your freedom does not cause others with a weaker conscience to stumble.
10 For if others see you––with your “superior knowledge”––eating in the temple of an idol, won’t they be encouraged to violate their conscience by eating food that has been offered to an idol?
11 So because of your superior knowledge, a weak believer for whom Christ died will be destroyed.
12 And when you sin against other believers by encouraging them to do something they believe is wrong, you are sinning against Christ.

1Pe 2:16 For you are free, yet you are God’s slaves, so don’t use your freedom as an excuse to do evil.

Celticflower · Jun 8, 2007

Uphill Battle said:
nah, it isn't that any practice is empty, I am sure many many of them are heatfelt. However, there is much ballyhoo about those who do NOT do one thing or another. If I chose to do nothing more than what this verse in James says, and ignored form, and ritual, etc... never once genuflected, or crossed self, or knelt at an altar, or lit a candle, etc...

Is my righteousness (or lack therof) any less or more than that as one who has performed EVERY ritual according to their denomination, heartfelt or no?

Some people seem to need the traditions and rituals to "keep them on track". Other people don't. Rituals in and of themselves do not make you righteous -- Christ does. But if the rituals help to keep you focused on Christ are they a bad thing? It is only when the ritual becomes the only thing you focus on that there is a problem.

Oblio · Jun 8, 2007

Orthopraxis begets Orthodoxy

:amen:

icxn · Jun 8, 2007

Uphill Battle said:
Scripture states:

James 1:27
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

now, with forgiveness asked of RC and EO, as they will likely have the finger pointed at them most often for this, but most other protestant denominations are quite guilty of it too,

If what God our Father accepts as pure and faultless religion is to take care of orphans and widows, and to not be polluted, are we not getting it wrong with the current level of religiousity(word?) that we are portraying?

kneel, here, take three steps and genuflect, repeat after the priest/pastor... offer penance, etc... etc... ad nauseum.

It doesn't really matter what denomination or practice it is, are we not participating in Religious rituals that God does not consider pure and faultless?

If one did nothing more than take care of widows and orphans, and keep from being polluted (as best he or sh can) does ANY of the other stuff even remotely matter?

what do you think?

I think you have no idea of spiritual direction. When a person for example is proud and self-opinionated the Priest gives him the silly exercise of kneeling/repetitive tasks to humble their will. Especially if someone is proud of his good of helping the orphans and the widows. On the other hand, if someone is rich and greedy the helping of orphans and widows is his penenance. Each person according to his sickness receives the proper medication. The spiritually healthy, who practice true religion, do not need such instructions.

prodromos · Jun 8, 2007

God gave the Israelites many religious rituals to follow. You don't think it might have been for their benefit?

music4two · Jun 8, 2007

prodromos said:
God gave the Israelites many religious rituals to follow. You don't think it might have been for their benefit?

Actually the rituals God instructed the Isralites were types of the things to come ie: The spotless lamb = Christ.
At this time the rituals have been fullfilled and need not be repeated.

OrthodoxyUSA · Jun 8, 2007

Uphill Battle said:
I'm asking what, if any, benifit a flurry of religious ritual serve, when we have from scripture what God considers "True Religion"

The "ritual" that you speak of is what Christ taught to the Apostles.

You would have us throw it out as non-usefull, because you don't understand it?

To be quite honest, we see that belief, repentance and baptism are of no effect without it (The rite of The Holy Eucharist) , if we are to continue among the living.

It is mearly that you do not see The Holy Eucharist and the Liturgy that has developed around it as being correct.

In fact, most people confuse The Holy Eucharist with The Lord's Supper (the agape meal aka the love feast).

Also I wonder if you believe that we do not take care of the widows and orphans?

Forgive me... :liturgy:

Uphill Battle · Jun 8, 2007

Celticflower said:
Some people seem to need the traditions and rituals to "keep them on track". Other people don't. Rituals in and of themselves do not make you righteous -- Christ does. But if the rituals help to keep you focused on Christ are they a bad thing? It is only when the ritual becomes the only thing you focus on that there is a problem.

I don't call them a bad thing. However, many state that if certain rituals are NOT followed, you are not doing it right.

Oblio said:
Orthopraxis begets Orthodoxy

in other words, your belief is that you can't worship correctly, if you don't follow the right steps, correct?

icxn said:
I think you have no idea of spiritual direction. When a person for example is proud and self-opinionated the Priest gives him the silly exercise of kneeling/repetitive tasks to humble their will. Especially if someone is proud of his good of helping the orphans and the widows. On the other hand, if someone is rich and greedy the helping of orphans and widows is his penenance. Each person according to his sickness receives the proper medication. The spiritually healthy, who practice true religion, do not need such instructions.

a reasonable thought. remember, I'm not saying ritual in itself is bad. I know that I do some things that could be considered a "ritual." I just wonder at the "if you aren't doing ritual a, followed by ritual b, etc... then you have it wrong.

OrthodoxyUSA said:
The "ritual" that you speak of is what Christ taught to the Apostles.

yet to see strong evidence that the vast majority of rituals we see today have anything to do with what Christ taught the apostles!

Ousa said:
You would have us throw it out as non-usefull, because you don't understand it?

I wouldn't have YOU do anything, other than not condemn others who don't follow a checklist of rituals for worship/religion.

Ousa said:
To be quite honest, we see that belief, repentance and baptism are of no effect without it (The rite of The Holy Eucharist) , if we are to continue among the living.

It is mearly that you do not see The Holy Eucharist and the Liturgy that has developed around it as being correct.

that kind of sounds like a "there is no salvation without the :liturgy:

kind of statement... is that what you assert?

Ousa said:
In fact, most people confuse The Holy Eucharist with The Lord's Supper (the agape meal aka the love feast).

care to explain the difference? what are you meaning? the liturgy as well as the love feast as the Eucharist? Sorry, I'm not following.

Ousa said:
Also I wonder if you believe that we do not take care of the widows and orphans?

Forgive me...

never crossed my mind. I KNOW you do.

dimwhitt · Jun 8, 2007

James is telling us that such deeds are the visible sign of the true church

church takes many forms
but all are church

kneeling, standing, etc. etc
there is always a good reason for each gesture in a church service and some are interesting
kneel - prayer
stand - to reverence the reading scripture
sit - to be taught
sometimes learning about that breaks up the repetition and give each gesture meaning

Rowan · Jun 8, 2007

Uphill Battle said:
nah, it isn't that any practice is empty, I am sure many many of them are heatfelt. However, there is much ballyhoo about those who do NOT do one thing or another. If I chose to do nothing more than what this verse in James says, and ignored form, and ritual, etc... never once genuflected, or crossed self, or knelt at an altar, or lit a candle, etc...

Is my righteousness (or lack therof) any less or more than that as one who has performed EVERY ritual according to their denomination, heartfelt or no?

Of course not. We're not here to judge another's righteousness. I wasn't aware that people actually judged anyone else as far as their participation, and they shouldn't.

Hasn't happened to me. I didn't start off venerating icons and prostrating right away at my first Divine Liturgies, and I didn't feel like there was any "ballyhoo" about it

Have you experienced this before? A shame if you have.

Oblio · Jun 8, 2007

in other words, your belief is that you can't worship correctly, if you don't follow the right steps, correct?

No it is not.

Uphill Battle · Jun 8, 2007

Rowan said:
Of course not. We're not here to judge another's righteousness. I wasn't aware that people actually judged anyone else as far as their participation, and they shouldn't.

Hasn't happened to me. I didn't start off venerating icons and prostrating right away at my first Divine Liturgies, and I didn't feel like there was any "ballyhoo" about it

Have you experienced this before? A shame if you have.

yes, in different ways, at different times.

Being told that the church I go to is sinful because it doesn't do X any Y but does Z etc.. etc...

looked down the nose at because I walk in to a church without form or ritual....

(I was once visiting a church, and I was chastized and frowned at for not crossing myself with holy water and genuflecting before sitting down...)

Oblio · Jun 8, 2007

Uphill Battle said:
yes, in different ways, at different times.

Being told that the church I go to is sinful because it doesn't do X any Y but does Z etc.. etc...

looked down the nose at because I walk in to a church without form or ritual....

(I was once visiting a church, and I was chastized and frowned at for not crossing myself with holy water and genuflecting before sitting down...)

That is sad.

Individuals of any assembly are capable of acting improperly. This does not necessarily mean that the confession that that person belongs to hold those views.

While I believe Liturgical worship is that which has been from the beginning, and anything less in a corporate setting is a departure from the ideal set forth by the Holy Spirit, I do not think it is proper to look down upon those who with their heart believe they are worshiping the Holy Trinity in spirit and truth.

Rowan · Jun 8, 2007

Uphill Battle said:
yes, in different ways, at different times.

Being told that the church I go to is sinful because it doesn't do X any Y but does Z etc.. etc...

looked down the nose at because I walk in to a church without form or ritual....

(I was once visiting a church, and I was chastized and frowned at for not crossing myself with holy water and genuflecting before sitting down...)

What Oblio said. We have no right to turn our noses up. I don't know what happened in that parish, but last year I was probably much like you -- visiting a church where the parishioners expressed their faith outwardly and not joining in them in it...but no one said I had to nor did anyone look down on me for it. That could have been a bit discouraging, for sure.

Adoniram · Jun 8, 2007

Uphill Battle said:
James 1:27
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

I think this is merely the application of the words of Jesus:

Love the Lord with all your body, mind, and soul. And love your neighbor as yourself.

This is where you find "true religion."

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