Daniel 9:

Just The Facts · Jun 7, 2007

You have asked a very good question and one that exposes a very serious problem in the traditional understanding of this prophecy.

This prophecy was fulfilled by 47 AD.

The Prince spoken of is not Jesus, It is Joshua first priest King of the Second Temple Era.

Here is the Truth of this matter

This one will be a long one but please take the time to read it all at least twice so you can absorb all the info in it.

Why should we believe it is a continual time line from Jesus' death to present day and into the future. Doesn't Daniel describe a break in the last week of his time line in his prophecies of the seventy weeks of years. Before we look at Daniel we should understand who is giving Daniel these prophecies. It is Jesus. As we have seen above only Jesus can open the scrolls and reveal the future. Daniel says the following in chapter 10

16And behold, one in the likeness of the sons of men touched my lips; then I opened my mouth and spoke. I said to him who stood before me, "O my lord, by reason of the vision pains have come upon me, and I retain no strength. 17How can my lord's servant talk with my lord? For now no strength remains in me, and no breath is left in me." 18Again one having the appearance of a man touched me and strengthened me. 19And he said, "O man greatly beloved, fear not, peace be with you; be strong and of good courage." And when he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, "Let my lord speak, for you have strengthened me."

Did you catch it? Daniel is calling the messenger "My Lord" in verse 16,17 & 19 and in verse 19 the messenger even says Jesus' trade mark phrase "Peace be with you" This is clearly Jesus. Understanding this fact will help us understand Daniel, as Jesus tells us the future in plain language in Matthew 24. First, lets not forget that Daniel 9: deals with Jerusalem and the Jewish transgressions that has resulted in Daniel's people's deportation. It is not a prophecy for the end times. We must keep in mind that Daniel has just read the prophet Jeremiah and wished to know the future of his HOLY CITY not the future of the world. The book of Daniel makes very clear distinctions between end time prophecy and other prophecy. Here are all the references to the end days in the book of Daniel

Daniel 8:17, Daniel 8:19, Daniel11:27, Daniel 11:35, Daniel 11:40, Daniel 12:4 Daniel 12:9

Notice that the term end of times or end days or time of the end is not used once in Chapter 9. Why is that? Baptist and Pentecostal Christians, to name just a few, believe that the final week is a prophecy for end times. Why, if it is a prophecy for end times, does Daniel not say so, Daniel and Jesus repeatedly say it about other end time prophecies (ie: chapters 8 and 11,12).

It would seem that this prophecy does not deal with the end times. To say it does is to add your own meaning and understanding to Gods word. What about the abomination that causes desolation is it not in all four chapters of Daniel 8 - 9 - 11 - 12? Are they not the same Abomination? It would appear that they are the same abomination but a closer look reveals that they are not the same abominations.

To understand this we need to find a common point with Jesus' prophecy of Matthew 24: So that we are not guessing, but are believing in what Jesus tells us.

First we will look at the abomination in Daniel 8. Jesus tells Gabriel to explain the prophecy to Daniel, Daniel is told in very distinct language that this prophecy is for the end days "for it pertains to the appointed time of the end" [/b]

. This is clearly the abomination that causes desolation spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 2.4 We are even told in Daniel 8:25 that this last king will fight Jesus and be destroyed by God.

We will now look at Daniel 11 verse 40 on. Daniel is given a starting point in this Prophecy and the prophecy runs in a continual time line through almost 2400 years of history. We will join at verse 40:

"At the time of the end the king of the south shall attack him; but the king of the north shall rush upon him like a whirlwind, with chariots and horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall come into countries and shall overflow and pass through.

Well as we can see this is the Time of the End. Notice in verse 32 is an abomination of desolation this is the abomination that would be that start of many abominations. That would lead to the end of the Prince.

Now lets go back in time between verse 32 which I say is the Abomination of 168 BC. and the end times in verse 40.

Well, should we not find mention of Jesus and the saints in there some where?

[33] And those among the people who are wise shall make many understand, though they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder, for some days. (Christians where the only ones burned the Romans did it so they could not be resurrected or so they thought). [34] When they fall, they shall receive a little help (Holy Spirit the helper). And many shall join themselves to them with flattery (Jesus's first warning on the mount false teachers). [35] and some of those who are wise shall fall (The Saints). to refine and to cleanse them and to make them white(Only the saints who have died in the name of Christ get white robes)., until the time of the end, for it is yet for the time appointed

HERE IS THE TIE IN TO MATT 24:

4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6: And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet

Here Jesus talks about the fall of Judea and the Temple but he tells them that the end is not yet

Now on to Daniel 9:

The most important thing to understand in Daniel 9: is what Daniel is asking for clarification on. Daniel, like every other Jew of the time, wanted to know if God was still going to fulfil his promise to David, that Jesus would be born of the Jews. This was the Jewish share of God's covenant with Abraham. Just as the northern Kingdom of Israel had a punishment time allotted, so here do the Jews, 490 yrs.

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy One.

We are told that it will take 490 yrs. To finish the sin of the Jews "upon thy people" "to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity". And to seal up and finish this prophecy. It looks like Jesus knew that people would try and stretch this prophecy to over 2500yrs. So he clearly states this prophecy ends in 490yrs.

We must remember he is writing in regards to Jeremiah's prophecy of seventy years, the chapter starts

2: In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolation of Jerusalem.

490 years to make an end of their sins to fulfil God's covenant with Abraham, and to reconcile them to God by Jesus "and to anoint the most Holy One.

"This prophecy clearly states that the 490 years is a further punishment period of the Jews. In this prophecy at the end of 490 years Jesus arrives and this part of the covenant with Abraham is fulfilled. This abomination in these verses can not be the abomination that Jesus speaks of happening in the end times because this abomination happens during the 490 years., before Jesus arrives. Jesus comes at the end of the 490 years.

Here is the verse from the King James.

25: Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27: And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now the Revised Standard

25 Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 After the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

It is clear these two translations are very different. While the King James Version translated from the Vulgate clearly implies this prince is Jesus by putting the first seven weeks and 62 weeks together, the Revised says it is just a Anointed One and separates the first seven weeks and the 62 weeks. More over the Revised version says the anointed one will be cut off and have nothing, that is the Septuagint translation, the Hebrew texts translate, "cut off and have no one left". this certainly was not Jesus. So which translation is correct. As I said at the start we will use the Septuagint and Hebrew versions, as they predate the Catholics who changed many verses in the Vulgate as they have admitted, "to make their meaning clearer"

First we must look at a very large discrepancy in these dates. Jeremiah tells us the Jews would be held captive 70 years. Historians say Jerusalem fell first in 597BC then in 586 BC the Temple was destroyed. Well quick math will show you that 597 or 586 minus 70 years does not leave one at or 538 BC which is the historical date of Cyrus's edict to Rebuild Jerusalem.

In 608 BC Babylon invades Judea and extracts a tribute from Jerusalem. In the first three months of Jehoiachin reign in 598BC. he stops paying tribute to Babylon. This infuriates Nebuchadnezzars and he takes the Jehoiachin his Sons and all the Nobles of Judea. Captive to Babylon and carries off all the Treasures of the temple (2Kings24:10-15). 608 - 70 years captivity leaves us at 538BC. This would seem to agree with the Biblical account.

Early in Artaxerxes reign 7yr. 5th month Ezra arrives in Jerusalem sometime about 458BC not 398BC as Catholic history teaches

So first thing that is noticed is the 490 years. Is broken up into 49 years. 434 years. And 7 years. And that the end will result in Jesus' arrival and the destruction of Jerusalem. It also says that war will continue until the end of Jerusalem. It clearly says, that there will be more than one desolation of the Temple
"Desolations are decreed"

It says an anointed one will come after 49 years. Who or what is an anointed one? All through Leviticus in at least six places by a quick count Priest are called anointed ones. In Kings, Saul is said to have been anointed by God, this is also true of other Kings including King Cyrus, Who Isaiah says is God's Anointed, and who Ezra clearly states fulfils Jeremiah's prophecy in the Bible. So it would appear that there are a few possible solutions it could be a Priest or a King or Cyrus.

End Part 1
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

Just The Facts · Jun 7, 2007

Part 2:

It is important to understand that the rebuilt Judea had Priest Kings, not separate High Priest and Separate Kings as before the deportation. Either way this is clearly the coming of a ruler 49 years after the word goes forth to rebuild and restore Jerusalem 538BC that puts us at 489BC

Then for 434 years Jerusalem will be built but in a troubled time. After 434 years of rule, this ruling line, will be cut of and have nothing (no heir to the seat of authority). The total number of years since the order to rebuild is now 483 years. If you put Jesus as the Anointed One that is cut off then he was murdered 483 years after the order to rebuild Jerusalem which we know went out in around 538BC. Ezra clearly says it is Cyrus's edict that fulfils the words of Jeremiah. To say some other rulers like Artaxerxes I edict of 458BC is the start date is to call God and Ezra liars. 538BC - 483 yrs. puts us at about 55BC. How can this possibly be Jesus he wasn't even born yet. Further more Jesus was never cut off and had nothing.

It is also important to understand that the last week is to be added in to the 62 weeks. Unlike the first seven weeks, which are clearly defined, the last week is not defined. The whole prophecy ends at the end of verse 26. "and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed" He then goes back in History to explain the first of many desolations of the Temple that will occur.

27And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

Consider the phrasing he clearly end his thought at verse 26 and then verse 27 he speaks of this Prince who starts the desolation, he then continues on to the exact same end as in verse 26 .

Now lets look at History and Scripture and see what we get. 49 years after the word 538BC would put us at about 489BC.

Most Historians can not agree on any of the dates involved. However scripture says this in Zechariah 6:

11: Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest; 12: And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: 13: Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Here Joshua is named Priest King by God. Most historians believe this took place about 516BC. I am left wondering if this date of 516BC is not off by 27 years. Scripture says Joshua is the Priest King it also says in Daniel that he comes after 49 yrs from the edict, he must have arrived in about 489BC not 516BC unless the date of Cyrus's edict is wrong. I choose to believe Scriptural account and believe God's word rather that the confused historical account of this period. 538 - 49 = 489 ; 489 - 434 = 55 BC - 7years final week = 47BC

Antipater an Arab of Jewish faith, the Father of Herod the Great, became Governor of the Judea in 55BC he was a Arab not a Jew. His son would soon be named King of the Jews by Rome. and his Ascension to the thrown was the beginning of the end to the Priest Kings of the Second Temple Era. In 47 BC the Roman entered the Temple murdered all the Priest including the High Priest and wrapped up the 490 years. No high priest from then on would dare to defy Rome.

In fact Rome installed all the High Priests from 63BC on to 70 AD when Titus destroyed the Temple.. In 67 BC Pompey sided with Hyrcanus II for High Priest against Antigonus. Antigonus revolted and deposed Hyrcanus II Pompey Attacked Jerusalem Killing all the Priests in the Temple and desecrating the Temple by and entering the Holy of Holies.

The final week, , is divided into two halves, which many Christian Churches say is Jesus' ministry on Earth and that Jesus is the Prince cut off in the middle of the week. He already was here and taught for three and a half years. So what this Prince changes identity and turns on the temple for the last 3.5 years. I guess he will also trample the saints for 3.5years.

Many other say it is the final week separated by thousands of years from the other weeks and this is the AC.

This is not Jesus or the AC, this is one of the Kings of the North of Daniel 11. This week is the seven-year Maccabean war from 167 to 160BC.

This was the start of War and Many Desolations of the Temple, which Daniel is told, will continue until the end of Jerusalem. Here are the dates of the desolation’s 167BC, 162 BC, 63BC, 47BC, 27BC down to 17 AD is the longest as pictures or plaques of Augustus where set up in every wall of the wing of the Temple and upon the wing of abominations. Tiberius pictures or busts replaced Augustus and were there when Jesus taught in the temple about 26AD.

Jerusalem's end coming with a Flood in Daniel 9:

26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined..

Which also matches with Jesus words in Rev 12:

15: And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

THIS IS THE TRUTH OF DANIEL 9:

If you combine the 62 weeks and the 7 weeks and say Jesus is the anointed on that is cut off you are saying that Jesus was cut off in 55BC which is 483 years after Cyrus's Decree. It makes no sense at all, no matter which translation you use. While I admit it is tempting to move this last week to be the final week of tribulation, the prophecy, the question being asked, and its answer, make it clear that this is not the case. In fact the Great tribulation the time of Jacobs trouble only last for 1335 days not seven years.

gwynedd1 · Jun 7, 2007

Try the concept that the end times of Daniel is the end of an age. If it is considered a Jewish end time then suddenly we have a coherent story. We have "holy people" , your people, and nation all pointing to Jews in Chapter 12. We have the end of the 70 weeks in 9. This means that there are 70 weeks determined and that will end.
Is it not bothersome to anyone that chapter 9 and 12 describes either Rome or modern times but not both? If Daniel 12 and the last week describes our time, or another, this means that Christ, Rome and 70 AD was complety left out and ignored and yet those events are the most critical of all of them. So are we to expect that Daniel had details up to Greece and then skipped Rome?

gwynedd1 · Jun 7, 2007

Just The Facts said:
Part 2:

It is important to understand that the rebuilt Judea had Priest Kings, not separate High Priest and Separate Kings as before the deportation. Either way this is clearly the coming of a ruler 49 years after the word goes forth to rebuild and restore Jerusalem 538BC that puts us at 489BC

Then for 434 years Jerusalem will be built but in a troubled time. After 434 years of rule, this ruling line, will be cut of and have nothing (no heir to the seat of authority). The total number of years since the order to rebuild is now 483 years. If you put Jesus as the Anointed One that is cut off then he was murdered 483 years after the order to rebuild Jerusalem which we know went out in around 538BC. Ezra clearly says it is Cyrus's edict that fulfils the words of Jeremiah. To say some other rulers like Artaxerxes I edict of 458BC is the start date is to call God and Ezra liars.

It would make the Persians liars. Cyrus was not in charge of the Jewish proclamation to rebuild. Cyrus was a Gentile king.

Nehemiah 2/3

1: In the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of King Ar-ta-xerx'es, when wine was before him, I took up the wine and gave it to the king. Now I had not been sad in his presence.

4: Then the king said to me, "For what do you make request?" So I prayed to the God of heaven.
5: And I said to the king, "If it pleases the king, and if your servant has found favor in your sight, that you send me to Judah, to the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may rebuild it."

2: Then I arose in the night, I and a few men with me; and I told no one what my God had put into my heart to do for Jerusalem

Cyrus or God? You pick? If the true command had gone out then why this one from God? I think God gave the command, not Cyrus. There is controversy of the exact date but this would come to 39 AD assuming 465 Artaxerxes accended the throne or 445 BC in the 20th year. Since Jewish years are shorter by 5 days then the Gregorian calander we are at low 30 AD or so. That is why everybody thought the Christ was coming such as the wise men from the east and the Essens at Qumran.

This was the start of War and Many Desolations of the Temple, which Daniel is told, will continue until the end of Jerusalem. Here are the dates of the desolations 167BC, 162 BC, 63BC, 47BC, 27BC down to 17 AD is the longest as pictures or plaques of Augustus where set up in every wall of the wing of the Temple and upon the wing of abominations. Tiberius pictures or busts replaced Augustus and were there when Jesus taught in the temple about 26AD.

Forget the Busts. Josephus tells us about the Roman ensign placed in the temple. I sure looks like wings to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Roman_aquila.jpg

The desolation happens AFTER the last week.In otherwords it is not directly related to what must happen in the 70 weeks.

24: "Seventy weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

Rafael · Jun 7, 2007

I thought the house of Judah's punishment was 40 days (years), but the house of Israel's wound up being seven times 390 days (years) for unrepentance.... I wonder it the house of Israel's judgment plays into your ideas on Daniel nine? 390yr. X 7= 2730yrs....

Ezekiel 4:4 Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity. 5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. 6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Le 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

Just The Facts · Jun 7, 2007

Hi gwyn

Sorry you lost me

Quote
It would make the Persians liars. Cyrus was not in charge of the Jewish proclamation to rebuild. Cyrus was a Gentile king.

Nehemiah 2/3
End Quote

No It is God who was in Charge

1: Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, 2: Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

Please find where God says it is some other decree we should use and say thisis the decree that starts the 490 years.

The People had been waiting for the Messiah for 70 years by the Time Jesus came.

Not only that the whole date of nemimiah is just out to lunch. It was Jerome who fist thought up that false doctrine and he set the date of the Decree ..................However as time passed we learned that was not the right date. And then in the last 15 years or so we have figured out that Jesus was born in the Fall of 6BC So nememiah's Decree date is wrong yet again..........................I am sure some scholar bent on making this fit will change the date again.

gwynedd1 · Jun 7, 2007

Just The Facts said:
Hi gwyn

Sorry you lost me

Quote
It would make the Persians liars. Cyrus was not in charge of the Jewish proclamation to rebuild. Cyrus was a Gentile king.

Nehemiah 2/3
End Quote

No It is God who was in Charge

1: Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, 2: Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

Please find where God says it is some other decree we should use and say thisis the decree that starts the 490 years.

I did post it. But if you believe that the answer to a prayer directly speaking to God is not enough then look closely at the command from Cyrus(that is a weaker argument but time is limited at work). Also do you know what Ezra was about? It was about the rebuiding of the temple NOT Jerusalem. Daniel says this

25: Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem

Nehemiah 2

7: And I said to the king, "If it pleases the king, let letters be given me to the governors of the province Beyond the River, that they may let me pass through until I come to Judah;
8: and a letter to Asaph, the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the fortress of the temple, and for the wall of the city, and for the house which I shall occupy." And the king granted me what I asked, for the good hand of my God was upon me.
9: Then I came to the governors of the province Beyond the River, and gave them the king's letters. Now the king had sent with me officers of the army and horsemen.
10: But when Sanbal'lat the Hor'onite and Tobi'ah the servant, the Ammonite, heard this, it displeased them greatly that some one had come to seek the welfare of the children of Israel.
11: So I came to Jerusalem and was there three days.
12: Then I arose in the night, I and a few men with me; and I told no one what my God had put into my heart to do for Jerusalem. There was no beast with me but the beast on which I rode.
13: I went out by night by the Valley Gate to the Jackal's Well and to the Dung Gate, and I inspected the walls of Jerusalem which were broken down and its gates which had been destroyed by fire.
14: Then I went on to the Fountain Gate and to the King's Pool; but there was no place for the beast that was under me to pass.
15: Then I went up in the night by the valley and inspected the wall; and I turned back and entered by the Valley Gate, and so returned.
16: And the officials did not know where I had gone or what I was doing; and I had not yet told the Jews, the priests, the nobles, the officials, and the rest that were to do the work.
17: Then I said to them, "You see the trouble we are in, how Jerusalem lies in ruins with its gates burned. Come, let us build the wall of Jerusalem, that we may no longer suffer disgrace."

The People had been waiting for the Messiah for 70 years by the Time Jesus came.

Not only that the whole date of nemimiah is just out to lunch. It was Jerome who fist thought up that false doctrine and he set the date of the Decree

If Cyrus had sent a decree to rebuild Jerusalem it would not have been lying in ruins for 2 generations. Nehemiah was told to rebuild Jerusalem.

Compare Ezra 9.

9: For we are bondmen; yet our God has not forsaken us in our bondage, but has extended to us his steadfast love before the kings of Persia, to grant us some reviving to set up the house of our God, to repair its ruins, and to give us protection in Judea and Jerusalem.

Its all about the temple anywhere you read it.

..................However as time passed we learned that was not the right date. And then in the last 15 years or so we have figured out that Jesus was born in the Fall of 6BC So nememiah's Decree date is wrong yet again..........................I am sure some scholar bent on making this fit will change the date again.

We will never get the exact date. It is clealy close enough to Jesus given our margine for error. But it does create big problems to mix up the decree it is prefectly clear that Cyrus was to rebuild the temple and the one to rebuild the temple was Atraxerces. Forgive me for presenting the weaker argument.
The final argument however is the prophesy was about Jesus and the Cyrus decree would be way off.

winslow · Jun 8, 2007

Just The Facts said:
Daniel 8:17, Daniel 8:19, Daniel11:27, Daniel 11:35, Daniel 11:40, Daniel 12:4 Daniel 12:9

Notice that the term end of times or end days or time of the end is not used once in Chapter 9. Why is that?

The lack of the terms end of times or end days does not mean chapter 9 can't be dealing with end time events. Remember that the scriptures didn't originally have chapter and verse numbers. The angel speaking to Daniel connects the events of Chapter 9 with those of chapter 8:

Dan 9:23 At the beginning of your prayers the word came forth, and I have come to explain it. For you are greatly beloved. Then consider the matter and understand the vision:

Which vision is the angel telling Daniel to consider? the vision of chapter 8. The angel Gabriel could not explain the vision because Daniel was sick and destraught:

Dan 8:27 And I, Daniel, was faint. And I was sick for days. Afterwards, I got up and did the king's business. And I was amazed at the vision. But there was no understanding.

Daniel was destraught because he knew the time of Israel's captivity was coming to a close (according to the prophet jeremiah) but he was disturbed by the 2300 day(year) part of the prophecy. He was afraid the Lord was extending the time of Israels captivity. That is why the beginning of chapter 9 starts with Daniels eloquent prayer for the nation.

Dan 9:1 In the first year of Darius, the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans,
Dan 9:2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood the number of the years by books, which had been a Word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
Dan 9:3 And I set my face toward the Lord God, to seek by prayer and holy desires, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.
Dan 9:4 And I prayed to Jehovah my God, and made my confession, saying, O Lord, the great and awesome God, keeping the covenant and mercy of those who love Him, and to those who keep His commandments,
Dan 9:5 we have sinned and have committed iniquity and have done evilly, and we have rebelled, even by departing from Your commandments and from Your judgments.
Dan 9:6 And we have not listened to Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings, our rulers, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.
Dan 9:7 O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us the shame of our faces, as it is this day to the men of Judah, and to those living in Jerusalem, and to all Israel, who are near and who are afar through all the lands where You have driven them for their unfaithfulness which they have done against You.
Dan 9:8 O Lord, shame of face belongs to us, to our kings, to our rulers and to our fathers, because we have sinned against You.
Dan 9:9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and pardons, for we have rebelled against Him.
Dan 9:10 We have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His laws which he set before us by His servants the prophets.
Dan 9:11 Yea, all Israel has transgressed Your Law and turned aside that they might not obey Your voice. For this reason the curse has poured out on us, and the oath that is written in the Law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against Him.
Dan 9:12 And He has confirmed His Words which He spoke against us, and against our judges who judge us, by bringing on us a great evil. For under the whole heavens it has not been done as it has been done to Jerusalem.
Dan 9:13 As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this evil has come on us. Yet we did not make our prayer before Jehovah our God that we might turn from our perversities and understand Your truth.
Dan 9:14 And Jehovah has looked on the evil and has made it come on us. For Jehovah our God is righteous in all His works which He does. For we did not obey His voice.
Dan 9:15 And now, O Lord our God, who brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand and made for Yourself a name, as it is this day; we have sinned; we have done evilly.
Dan 9:16 O Lord, I pray to You, according to all Your righteousness, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain. For because of our sins and of our fathers' iniquities, Jerusalem and Your people have become a reproach to all those around us.
Dan 9:17 And now, hear, O our God, the prayer of Your servant and his holy desires, and cause Your face to shine on Your sanctuary that is desolate, for the sake of the Lord.
Dan 9:18 O my God, bow down Your ear and hear; open Your eyes and see our ruins and the city which is called by Your name. For we do not make our prayers fall before You on account of our righteousnesses, but because of Your great mercies.
Dan 9:19 O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, attend to us and work! Do not delay, for Your own sake, O my God. For Your name is called on Your city and on Your people.
Dan 9:20 And while I was speaking and praying and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and making my cry fall before Jehovah my God for the holy mountain of my God,
Dan 9:21 and while I was setting my prayer in order, then the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, touched me in my severe exhaustion about the time of the evening sacrifice.
Dan 9:22 And he enlightened me and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I have now come out to give you skill in understanding.
Dan 9:23 At the beginning of your prayers the word came forth, and I have come to explain it. For you are greatly beloved. Then consider the matter and understand the vision:

Just The Facts · Jun 8, 2007

Hi Winslow

Qouote
The lack of the terms end of times or end days does not mean chapter 9 can't be dealing with end time events. Remember that the scriptures didn't originally have chapter and verse numbers. The angel speaking to Daniel connects the events of Chapter 9 with those of chapter 8:
End Quote

This is true let me rephrase that Notice that the term end of times end days is not used once in reference to Daniels question in chapter 9: or the response.

Well he had every reason to be destraught cause the curse of leviticus had not yet been applied.

Winslow do you know whay Jeremiah was told 70 years?

And why Daniel was told 490 years

Just The Facts · Jun 8, 2007

Hi Gwyn

Sorry Gwyn but the whole argument that that decree was for the Temple and not the city is nonsense. Ezra list all the people going what they did not build homes for themselves and open shops and build the city ......................of course they did.

That whole argument is grabbing at straws. We even have proof they were building the city.

Ezra:4:12: Be it known unto the king, that the Jews which came up from thee to us are come unto Jerusalem, building the rebellious and the bad city, and have set up the walls thereof, and joined the foundations.

So as we can plainly see they were in fact building the city too. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to send make a decree to build the temple without including the city.

Re read Ezra 9:9 it is about the Temple and the City.

9: For we were bondmen; yet our God hath not forsaken us in our bondage, but hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us a reviving, to set up the house of our God, and to repair the desolations thereof, and to give us a wall in Judah and in Jerusalem.

As we can clearly see they are very happy that they will be allowed TO BUILD A WALL.

Now look at Daniel 9:

[25] Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with street and walls, but in a troubled time.

Nememiah is not a command TO START building it is a command to allow the building to continue

As I have shown in Ezra the local Governor had stopped the building they were harassing the Jews that had returned. Nememiah gets a letter from the king............. not a decree.................. and the letter says let the Jews continue to build the city.

The prophecy is not about Jesus ............Jerome altered the text of this prophecy to make it appear it was about the Messiah cause that was his theory it was never about Jesus.

Jerome did three things

1. he changed the text to Messiah instead of anointed one.

2. He changed the phrasing to make it look like you add the first 7 with the 62 sevens YOU DO NOT in the Hebrew original it is very clear these are two distinct time frames.

3.He changed the Text to say is cut off but not for himself ..............It does not say that either it says
shall be cut off AND HAVE NOTHING...........

Jesus never had nothing. Jerome made these changes to make the text fit his new theory that this was about Jesus it is not never was about messiah.

God anointed Joshua first Priest King of the new Judea that line of Priest kings lasted EXACTLY the amount of time specified by the prophecy. When it was done the line of priest Kings had nothing they were cut off.

You have to understand why Jeremiah was 70 years and why Daniel is 490 years to understand this.

So I ask you the same Question as Winslow do you know why it was 70 years and why it was 490 years.

gwynedd1 · Jun 8, 2007

Just The Facts said:
Hi Gwyn

Sorry Gwyn but the whole argument that that decree was for the Temple and not the city is nonsense. Ezra list all the people going what they did not build homes for themselves and open shops and build the city ......................of course they did.

Then why can't I find any reference to building the city in Ezra until Artaxerxes? You are telling me to use your reasoning over scripture.

You posted the verse

2: "Thus says Cyrus king of Persia: The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has charged me to build him a house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

...

Ezra 4
1: Now when the adversaries of Judah and Benjamin heard that the returned exiles were building a temple to the LORD, the God of Israel,
2: they approached Zerub'babel and the heads of fathers' houses and said to them, "Let us build with you; for we worship your God as you do, and we have been sacrificing to him ever since the days of E'sar-had'don king of Assyria who brought us here."
3: But Zerub'babel, Jeshua, and the rest of the heads of fathers' houses in Israel said to them, "You have nothing to do with us in building a house to our God; but we alone will build to the LORD, the God of Israel, as King Cyrus the king of Persia has commanded us."
4: Then the people of the land discouraged the people of Judah, and made them afraid to build,
5: and hired counselors against them to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia.
6: And in the reign of Ahasu-e'rus, in the beginning of his reign, they wrote an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem.
7: And in the days of Ar-ta-xerx'es, Bishlam and Mith'redath and Tab'eel and the rest of their associates wrote to Ar-ta-xerx'es king of Persia; the letter was written in Aramaic and translated.
8: Rehum the commander and Shim'shai the scribe wrote a letter against Jerusalem to Ar-ta-xerx'es the king as follows --
9: then wrote Rehum the commander, Shim'shai the scribe, and the rest of their associates, the judges, the governors, the officials, the Persians, the men of Erech, the Babylonians, the men of Susa, that is, the Elamites,
10: and the rest of the nations whom the great and noble Osnap'par deported and settled in the cities of Sama'ria and in the rest of the province Beyond the River, and now
11: this is a copy of the letter that they sent -- "To Ar-ta-xerx'es the king: Your servants, the men of the province Beyond the River, send greeting. And now
12: be it known to the king that the Jews who came up from you to us have gone to Jerusalem. They are rebuilding that rebellious and wicked city; they are finishing the walls and repairing the foundations.
13: Now be it known to the king that, if this city is rebuilt and the walls finished, they will not pay tribute, custom, or toll, and the royal revenue will be impaired.

Daniel 9
25: Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem

The rebuilding of Jerusalem had begun during the reign of Artaxerxes.

That whole argument is grabbing at straws. We even have proof they were building the city.

Ezra:4:12: Be it known unto the king, that the Jews which came up from thee to us are come unto Jerusalem, building the rebellious and the bad city, and have set up the walls thereof, and joined the foundations.

Proof texting out of context verses is grabbing at straws. I have posted Ezra 4 in context.

So as we can plainly see they were in fact building the city too. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to send make a decree to build the temple without including the city.

Then why all the worry about the royal tribute. And you are changing the argument. It is from the commmand to rebuild the city.

Re read Ezra 9:9 it is about the Temple and the City.

9: For we were bondmen; yet our God hath not forsaken us in our bondage, but hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us a reviving, to set up the house of our God, and to repair the desolations thereof, and to give us a wall in Judah and in Jerusalem.

As you can see Ezra covers the reign of Artaxerxes as well.

Now look at Daniel 9:

[25] Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with street and walls, but in a troubled time.

Nememiah is not a command TO START building it is a command to allow the building to continue

Show me the quote or context of continue. You are ADDING words to the scripture. That is NOT what Nememiah says AT ALL. Please show me that.

As I have shown in Ezra the local Governor had stopped the building they were harassing the Jews that had returned. Nememiah gets a letter from the king............. not a decree.................. and the letter says let the Jews continue to build the city.

Now the letter carrying the authority of the king is just a request?

The prophecy is not about Jesus ............Jerome altered the text of this prophecy to make it appear it was about the Messiah cause that was his theory it was never about Jesus.

Jerome altered the Bible?

Jerome did three things
1. he changed the text to Messiah instead of anointed one.

2. He changed the phrasing to make it look like you add the first 7 with the 62 sevens YOU DO NOT in the Hebrew original it is very clear these are two distinct time frames.

3.He changed the Text to say is cut off but not for himself ..............It does not say that either it says
shall be cut off AND HAVE NOTHING...........

Jesus never had nothing. Jerome made these changes to make the text fit his new theory that this was about Jesus it is not never was about messiah.

I use several translations. And unfortunately even accurate ones have the problem different meanings. Its like being gay in the 19th century which had I lived then I may have been gay from time to time ...or sad. But Jerome is a strawman argument anyway.

God anointed Joshua first Priest King of the new Judea that line of Priest kings lasted EXACTLY the amount of time specified by the prophecy. When it was done the line of priest Kings had nothing they were cut off.

You have to understand why Jeremiah was 70 years and why Daniel is 490 years to understand this.

So I ask you the same Question as Winslow do you know why it was 70 years and why it was 490 years.

And what did Joshua do to bring in everlasting righteousness?

I am sorry I do not follow at all. Daniel 9 could only fit Jesus.

24: "Seventy weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

The argument cannot work unless you casually consider the temple and Jerusalem one and the same. Since I will not do that the argument falls apart even there. I always rule in favor of most recent as well since what follows establishes context hence Artaxerxes and Nehemiah carrys more weight.
Even though I do not need to use reason to prove that the temple is not Jerusalem it is not reasonable to have the scripture in Nehemiah with your intrepretation. If you order a dinner and assume it comes with bread then the assumption is you ordered bread( and in this case you have the advantage that dinner includes bread where it is Jerusalem that contains the temple). When dinner arrives and there is no bread the context establishes that you did not. So not only do I have the explicit scripture but also the implied context. You are reasoning out what Cyrus meant without hindsight whereas I reason with the hindsight of Artaxerxes and Nehemiah.

gwynedd1 · Jun 8, 2007

Using the revised standard.

Daniel 9

24: "Seventy weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.
25: Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.
26: And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed.
27: And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

Who is "an anointed one"?

"26: And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off".

Hebrews 1

8:But of the Son he says, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom.
9: Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness beyond thy comrades."

"to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place."

Who does this?

to bring in everlasting righteousness,

Matthew 3
15: But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness." Then he consented.

and this? to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin.

Hebrews 9

15: Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.

And the winner for the most misunderstood verse of all is 9:27.

27: And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease;

When concerning the Bible who makes covenants? God does. This is Jesus who confirms a covenant.

Hebrews 13

20: Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant,

It is still astounding that people believe that Daniel 9 is to culminate in a "strong covenant with the anti-Christ". At the climax of the most important event ever when Christ comes and saves the world an "anti-Christ peace treaty" is inserted in . Mind you there are references to the covenant of Christ EVERYWHERE and not one place about a peace treaty but for the one made out of the blue here.

As to who put an end to sacrifice? Christ did.

Hebrew 9

12: he entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
13: For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh,
14: how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Also recored in the Talmud.
http://www.biblehistory.net/newsletter/scapegoat.htm

When was Christ crucified? 3 and 1/2 years in his ministry. That is when the sacrifice ceased as God no longer accepted it because of the New covenant. Did Jesus disappear after being crucified? No he was quite busy.

John 21

1: When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, "Lord, what about this man?"
22: Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? Follow me!"
23: The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?"
24: This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true.
25: But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

The last we heard was in appearing to Paul. When did Pauls ministry appear? 3 and 1/2 years after the crucifiction or one week.

I challenge anyone to find a verse that supports the prospect that the Anti-Christ confirmed a strong covenant. From Jesus ministry to Pauls was 1 week or 7 years.
Reading it this way there are no time gaps, no mixing and matching or single verses with no supporting context. It is consistent and Christ centric.

Codger · Jun 8, 2007

gwynedd1 said:
Using the revised standard.

Daniel 9

Who is "an anointed one"?

"26: And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off".

"to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place."

Who does this?

to bring in everlasting righteousness,

and this? to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin.

Hebrews 9
And the winner for the most misunderstood verse of all is 9:27.

27: And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease;

When concerning the Bible who makes covenants? God does. This is Jesus who confirms a covenant.

Hebrews 13
It is still astounding that people believe that Daniel 9 is to culminate in a "strong covenant with the anti-Christ". At the climax of the most important event ever when Christ comes and saves the world an "anti-Christ peace treaty" is inserted in . Mind you there are references to the covenant of Christ EVERYWHERE and not one place about a peace treaty but for the one made out of the blue here.

As to who put an end to sacrifice? Christ did.

Hebrew 9

Also recored in the Talmud.
http://www.biblehistory.net/newsletter/scapegoat.htm

When was Christ crucified? 3 and 1/2 years in his ministry. That is when the sacrifice ceased as God no longer accepted it because of the New covenant. Did Jesus disappear after being crucified? No he was quite busy.

John 21
The last we heard was in appearing to Paul. When did Pauls ministry appear? 3 and 1/2 years after the crucifiction or one week.

I challenge anyone to find a verse that supports the prospect that the Anti-Christ confirmed a strong covenant. From Jesus ministry to Pauls was 1 week or 7 years.
Reading it this way there are no time gaps, no mixing and matching or single verses with no supporting context. It is consistent and Christ centric.

Jesus CONFIRMED the Abrahamic covenant - confirm means to make stronger or to give new assurance of the validity of something already in existance - in this case the Abrahamic Covenant.

The Dispensationalists have exported so much material to the future that it is logically impossible to connect all of the dots. And so they fall into absurdity.

trumpeter · Jun 8, 2007

I challenge anyone to find a verse that supports the prospect that the Anti-Christ confirmed a strong covenant.

The Antichrist and other nations ("many," Dan 9:27) will confirm a covenant with Israel for seven years. Isaiah calls it a "covenant with death" (28:15), an agreement that gives Israel a false sense of security, a "hiding place" away from their arch rival Syria and the nations that surround them. Instead of relying on the "cornerstone for a sure foundation" (Jesus, v.16; Zec 10:4; Eph 2:20; 1 Pet 2:6), they trust in the covenant for their protection.

In the middle of the seven year covenant the Antichrist ( the "mighty and strong one;" KJB) will break the covenant and "put an end to sacrifice and offering." Israel will be invaded and "trodden down" by the Antichrist and his allies, this "overflowing scourge" will overtake them like a flood (Isa. 28:2; 17-18). At the Second Coming the "covenant with death shall be disannulled" (v.18; KJB) and "the LORD Almighty will be a glorious crown, a beautiful wreath for the remnant of his people" during the Millennium (v.5; NIV).

ikester · Jun 8, 2007

Codger said:
Jesus CONFIRMED the Abrahamic covenant - confirm means to make stronger or to give new assurance of the validity of something already in existance - in this case the Abrahamic Covenant.

The Dispensationalists have exported so much material to the future that it is logically impossible to connect all of the dots. And so they fall into absurdity.

this confirmed covenant you speak of......why only a week???

gwynedd1 · Jun 8, 2007

Thanks for the reply.

trumpeter said:
The Antichrist and other nations ("many," Dan 9:27) will confirm a covenant with Israel for seven years.

This is the verse itself so that is really not a verse in support of it.

Isaiah calls it a "covenant with death" (28:15), an agreement that gives Israel a false sense of security, a "hiding place" away from their arch rival Syria and the nations that surround them.

Lets post some context leading up to that verse.

1: Woe to the proud crown of the drunkards of E'phraim, and to the fading flower of its glorious beauty, which is on the head of the rich valley of those overcome with wine!
2: Behold, the Lord has one who is mighty and strong; like a storm of hail, a destroying tempest, like a storm of mighty, overflowing waters, he will cast down to the earth with violence.
3: The proud crown of the drunkards of E'phraim will be trodden under foot;
4: and the fading flower of its glorious beauty, which is on the head of the rich valley, will be like a first-ripe fig before the summer: when a man sees it, he eats it up as soon as it is in his hand.
5: In that day the LORD of hosts will be a crown of glory, and a diadem of beauty, to the remnant of his people;
6: and a spirit of justice to him who sits in judgment, and strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate.
7: These also reel with wine and stagger with strong drink; the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink, they are confused with wine, they stagger with strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in giving judgment.
8: For all tables are full of vomit, no place is without filthiness.
9: "Whom will he teach knowledge, and to whom will he explain the message? Those who are weaned from the milk, those taken from the breast?
10: For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little."
11: Nay, but by men of strange lips and with an alien tongue the LORD will speak to this people,
12: to whom he has said, "This is rest; give rest to the weary; and this is repose"; yet they would not hear.
13: Therefore the word of the LORD will be to them precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little; that they may go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14: Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scoffers, who rule this people in Jerusalem!
15: Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, and with Sheol we have an agreement; when the overwhelming scourge passes through it will not come to us; for we have made lies our refuge, and in falsehood we have taken shelter";
16: therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am laying in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone, of a sure foundation: `He who believes will not be in haste.'

Considering that Isaiah was a prophet during the Assyrian accention to power this would be pre-exile. During this time Israel and Judah were a unified kingdom until Assyria. It would be very stange to assume this to be a prophesy in out time when this context occured during Isaiah's lifetime.
Now lets look at a post exile prophet Zechariah which is hundreds of years later.

Zechariah 11

10: And I took my staff Grace, and I broke it, annulling the covenant which I had made with all the peoples.
11: So it was annulled on that day, and the traffickers in the sheep, who were watching me, knew that it was the word of the LORD.
12: Then I said to them, "If it seems right to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them." And they weighed out as my wages thirty shekels of silver.
13: Then the LORD said to me, "Cast it into the treasury" -- the lordly price at which I was paid off by them. So I took the thirty shekels of silver and cast them into the treasury in the house of the LORD.
14: Then I broke my second staff Union, annulling the brotherhood between Judah and Israel

Ephraim which is Israel have been separated for the most part since Assyria and the other tribes are considered lost. I suspect that they were Samaritains myself during Christ's time. There is no context of any kind to match Isaiahs time and there is no scripture indicating a reunion of Israel and Judah.
This verse provides no support of any kind about an Anti-Christ or treaty and it is well outside of the Dispensationalist concept that Jerusalem is the benefit of the treaty whereas this verse implies and internal agreemnet between Judah and Israel with Judah being the leadership.

Instead of relying on the "cornerstone for a sure foundation" (Jesus, v.16; Zec 10:4; Eph 2:20; 1 Pet 2:6), they trust in the covenant for their protection.

This appears you are trying to pad this post with verses that do not support your argument. It supports mine since I have said the covenant that is relevant to 9:27 is the one Christ confirms.

In the middle of the seven year covenant the Antichrist ( the "mighty and strong one;" KJB) will break the covenant and "put an end to sacrifice and offering." Israel will be invaded and "trodden down" by the Antichrist and his allies, this "overflowing scourge"

That is not scripture.

will overtake them like a flood (Isa. 28:2; 17-18). At the Second Coming the "covenant with death shall be disannulled" (v.18; KJB) and "the LORD Almighty will be a glorious crown, a beautiful wreath for the remnant of his people" during the Millennium (v.5; NIV).[/quote]

Sennacherib's own record of his invasion of Judah, which matches the Biblical account, has been found by archaeologists. The clay prism is now in the Oriental Institute Museum in Chicago. A translated excerpt from it:

"Because Hezekiah, king of Judah, would not submit to my yoke, I came up against him, and by force of arms and by the might of my power I took forty-six of his strong fenced cities; and of the smaller towns which were scattered about, I took and plundered a countless number. From these places I took and carried off 200,156 persons, old and young, male and female, together with horses and mules, asses and camels, oxen and sheep, a countless multitude; and Hezekiah himself I shut up in Jerusalem, his capital city, like a bird in a cage, building towers round the city to hem him in, and raising banks of earth against the gates, so as to prevent escape ... Then upon Hezekiah there fell the fear of the power of my arms, and he sent out to me the chiefs and the elders of Jerusalem with 30 talents of gold and 800 talents of silver, and divers treasures, a rich and immense booty ... All these things were brought to me at Nineveh, the seat of my government."

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2001/20010429.htm

That again is during the Assyrian conflict.

So again I see no reason to support this view.

gwynedd1 · Jun 8, 2007

ikester said:
this confirmed covenant you speak of......why only a week???

Why not? A covenant is an agreement. How long does it take to agree? When someone buys a house they, at some point, stop signing the papers and live according to the agreement.

trumpeter · Jun 8, 2007

gwynedd1
That again is during the Assyrian conflict.

So again I see no reason to support this view.

>>>All of Isiah 28 is prophecy during the day of the Lord

28:5. In that day the LORD Almighty will be a glorious crown a beautiful wreath for the remnant of his people (during the Millennium).

>>>"In that day" is the day of the Lord.

gwynedd1 · Jun 8, 2007

trumpeter said:
>>>All of Isiah 28 is prophecy during the day of the Lord

28:5. In that day the LORD Almighty will be a glorious crown a beautiful wreath for the remnant of his people (during the Millennium).

>>>"In that day" is the day of the Lord.

You have no references, coherent argument or reasonable context. You are just adding the words and making it up. Its not an argument worth considering.

winslow · Jun 9, 2007

Just The Facts said:
Here is the verse from the King James.

25: Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27: And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now the Revised Standard

25 Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 After the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

It is clear these two translations are very different. While the King James Version translated from the Vulgate clearly implies this prince is Jesus by putting the first seven weeks and 62 weeks together, the Revised says it is just a Anointed One and separates the first seven weeks and the 62 weeks. More over the Revised version says the anointed one will be cut off and have nothing, that is the Septuagint translation, the Hebrew texts translate, "cut off and have no one left". this certainly was not Jesus. So which translation is correct. End Part 1

Here is the LT (Literal Translation):

Dan 9:25 Know, then, and understand that from the going out of a word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem, to Messiah the Prince, shall be seven weeks and sixty two weeks. The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in times of affliction.
Dan 9:26 And after sixty two weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of a coming ruler shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, and war shall be until the end.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week. And in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. And on a corner of the altar will be abominations that desolate, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall pour out on the desolator.

If you want to use the revised verson in lieu of others as a better translation you must qualify it. As you can see the literal translation (version) includes the 7 weeks with the sixty two weeks, as well as the anointed as the Messiah.

The offices of priest, prophet, and king all consisted of an annointing service as they represented an earthly counterpart to Jesus, the real Priest, Prophet, and King.

"And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week" :represents the time period from Jesus' baptism to the stoning of Stephen.

"And in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease": This Jesus crucified.

Daniel 9:

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Only time enough for love

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Regular Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Regular Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Member

Senior Veteran

Regular Member

Similar threads