Lucifer and Satan:two differnt beings??

BethelArsonist said:

lokt,

I am sorry that I just cannot side with the idea that satan is a real 'supernatural' entity. Part of my reasons for that have to do with my understanding of other subjects of scriptural study that are far too remote from this subject to involve here.

Would you be happy to agree with me simply to disagree on this subject and leave it at that?

I have enjoyed the debate.

No offense taken, and none intended.

'kay?

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See Job 1,


Satan seems like a real supernatural entity to me!!!

GratiaCorpusChristi said:

Lucifer?

What's a Lucifer?

I'm kidding of course, but making a point in the process.

The only lucifer in the Bible is in Isaiah 14, which refers to the falling morning star. It was translated lucifer into English, but really just refers to the 'morning star'- a title of the Babylonian king that will fall before the power of almight God.

Could Satan have been an angel at one point? Sure, maybe. Could his name have been Lucifer at that time? Sure, it's vaugely possible.

But Scripture doesn't say a thing about that. It's possible, and I won't get on anybody's case who believers it... and it's not that I don't believe it.... but where Scripture is silence, I guess I should be, too.

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Why did bibles like the KJV translate it to Lucifer then..I believe most got it from the Vulgate(Jermones Version)

zeke37 said:

See Job 1,


Satan seems like a real supernatural entity to me!!!

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I love the book of Job. He uses this form of the word "God" numerous times in it and even Daniel uses it in Chapter 11.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

'elowahh (Strong's 0433) occurs 57 times in 56 verses:

Job 3:4 That day, be it darkness,--Let not God/0433 'elowahh enquire after it from above, May there shine upon it no clear beam:

Job 19:26 And, though, after my skin is struck off, this [followeth], yet, apart from my flesh, shall I see God/0433 'elowahh :

Daniel 11:37 and on God/s/'Elohiym of fathers of Him, He shall not understand, and on coveted of women and on every of god/0433 'Elowahh He shall not understand, that over all He shall Magnify Himself

If we attribute mention of satan to the actual devil in the NT, then that makes satan kind of schizophrenic. On one hand, when Jesus calls Peter Satan, it's because Peter was trying to convince Jesus not to go through with the crucifixion, which means Satan would know the implication of it, but then Judas is supposedly possessed by Satan, who then hands Jesus over the Pharisees, oblivious to the fact that crucifixion will grant Christ victory.

Wait a minute

Are you saying that schixzophenia is Satanic?
I resent that.
Some of my best friends are schizophrenic

BethelArsonist said:

Wait a minute

Are you saying that schixzophenia is Satanic?
I resent that.
Some of my best friends are schizophrenic

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No. I'm saying that the Jesus called Peter "Satan" as an insult and as for Judas, I don't know if I believe he was possessed by satan or not, or if satan was merely his greed.

I see.
I thought I was wrong
Your a good friend, Mercier.

Mt 16:23 - But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Adam Clarke's Commentary says:

Verse 23. Get thee behind me, Satan
υπαγεοπισωμουσατανα. Get behind me, thou adversary. This is the proper translation of the Hebrew word Satan, from which the Greek word is taken. Our blessed Lord certainly never designed that men should believe he called Peter, DEVIL, because he, through erring affection, had wished him to avoid that death which he predicted to himself. This translation, which is literal, takes away that harshness which before appeared in our Lord's words.
Thou art an offence unto me
σκανδαλονμουει Thou art a stumbling-block in my way, to impede me in the accomplishment of the great design.
Thou savourest not
That is, dost not relish, ουφρονεις, or, thou dost not understand or discern the things of God-thou art wholly taken up with the vain thought that my kingdom is of this world.

Perhaps this sheds some light on the passage. This is why we must study scripture in the light of those who have made it their life's work to do so. Otherwise we always are reinventing the wheel. Those who have covered this ground, those who are known and respected, are a great help. They don't take the place of scripture by any means, but help in the understanding of it, especially the less clear passages.

Libre

No, we let them replace the living quality of scripture then.

The life of God's Word is in that it speaks differently to different people at different times.

This is what the life of the living Word is. People who are hired (hirelings) to do this for us is exactly what Jesus condemned, because they replace this life and they lead men to destruction when the chips are down.

I don't accept that. Men of God are given to the church. Teachers are in the five-fold offices of helps for our instruction and guidance. They don't replace the Holy Spirit but are inspired and instructed by the HS to teach and guide us, as under shepherds to the Good Shepherd. It would take a lifetime to gain the knowledge that a few men of God can impart.

If it were up to each of us to learn everything, why did Jesus give us pastors and teachers and apostles and so forth? All anyone would have to do is believe and the HS would take it from there. But no. He sent men like Peter and Paul and the others. And He has given us others down to our own day. Not hirelings, but men of God.

Libre

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

THEN ARE THESE UNTRUE??????


Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

There are not many pauls or peters walking in the power of the HOLY GHOST AROUND TODAY!

And we all ,if BORN OF GOD????have the HOLY GHOST
Can we hear HIm or NOT?

1Co 12:28 - And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Okay, Libre, I recant because you said "study scriture in light of those..."

I guess if we did that "those" would be different

Spirit, the difference is between being a disciple following christ, and being a Gentile following the disciples. Neither is wrong.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

LISTEN we follow our LORD JESUS CHRIST and HIM alone!
Yes we can share truth.But ,we do not accept it as TRUTH . Unless the SPIRIT of TRUTH comfims in our hearts it is truth.
Many are following other men or teachers or leaders.
That is why ? The church is so divided!
The church was never met to be devided ,Nor was one person ever to rule over it!
We lift up JESUS CHRIST and HIM only.GOD is no repecter of persons.
He does not give truth to me and keep you in darkness ,unless I bless you with truth.Each person in the body has some to share and bless with spiritually.
GOD gave each of us a part of HIM to teach us and guide us and for us to lift up our LORD!
We are one in the body!
He loves us all the same.The difference being ?How much we are will to yeild to HIM..
He will use Any willing!

The ultimate model of church is indeed full participation. It has just never been feasible in the past.

Consider that in the "church" Jesus attended everyone took turns at the pulpit.

GOD only got upset with me once/
Many years ago.HE said ?I was following a pastor .
HE asked me?
WAs I going to follow that man or HIM.
I said?LORD HE is your shepherd,HE said?I am the shepherd .
I said?I will follow YOU LORD!
HE said?DO IT THEN!
I was very fearful and have never followed any person since!
But it has blessed me,I have experianced everything in the NEW TESTAMENT.except walking on water!
He is NO respecter of person.
Good to be humble
good to wash others feet.
Bad to follow anyone but OUR LORD!

MANKIND does not want to share the power .They want to decide everyone elses life and rule therec little kingdoms!

1Co 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

WHAT local church would dare obey this scripture?
It would take FAITH though LOVE!
Not many churches want to live in FAITH?
Faith does away with tithing,And trusta the HOLY GHOST to make people give?
The first did,And there reward was people gave ALL they had.
The first church was 12 men.!They almost conquerored the world for our LORD!
Now we say?There are many millions in the church yet we cannot conqueror our cities!Most cannot conqueror there own homes!Very sad!

It's great how people get these "revelations" from Jesus where Jesus tells them that the Church has strayed and shouldn't be followed. Reminds me of Joseph Smith and all other false prophets.

I have little faith in that revelation idea too, but sometimes people can "wake up" to new understanding.

Concerning the leadership of the church, there are appointed times when things need to change. Pharoah was very religious. But then Moses brought a new faith. Jesus then brought a new faith when Moses law had run it's course. And actually, it has only been in the New World, America, that the chief leader of Christianity has become Paul instead of even Jesus. But these things were appointed long ago. It is represented in scripture as the law that the showbread of the high priest must be thrown out and replaced with new bread each day. These days represent the times Daniel detailed, which has become the history of the Western world.
I have detailed all this in my blog on this site.

At each such juncture, the previous religious leadership does give resistance to the change. It effectively becomes the satan of that time for a moment, like Peter did when he resisted how Jesus planned to bring in Christianity. It was way out of his league to understand the next order, which is also always the case.