Holocaust

Y

Yeznik

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:confused: No offense Bro. Yeznik, but who do you think the Russians were fighting for in 1945?

It was those average Soviet soldiers who machine gunned the priest my grandmother grew up with - and I'd rather not say what they did to what was left of the cathedral or to her and her sisters.

I just pray we learn from our past. Let's not repeat former mistakes. Take care brother, I hope I haven't caused any ruffled feathers. God bless! :crossrc:

Dear davarich Nachtjager,

I feel your pain as an Armenian who knows the evils committed by the Soviets. Please don't get me wrong. I am speaking in the context of WW2 and how the Russian were the first force that drove back the Nazi's. I am happy they did, up until the Russians got involved the Nazi's were running most of Europe not to mention parts of Africa. I have read part of an extensive list in which the Soviets sysmatically took Armenian clergy to Siberia to "work" for the "mother country", I have also heard first hand experiences from priests of how the Soviets tried forcing them to be spies, not to mention the Russian, Serbian, and other clergy that was taken to Siberia.
 
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E.C.

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Nachtjager said:
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Thank God for the Russians??!!! WHAT???!!!
Not all Russians are religion-hating Communists. Just like not all religion-hating Communists are not Russian.

The same thing can be said for KKK people and Southerners.
 
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ContentInHim

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In advance I would like to explain that my question here is in regards to a debate I am having with my atheist friend.

Why didnt God stop the holocaust from happening?

I am versed in this subject adequately but need some help formulating a much better response. Any and all help is appreciated.

Thanks.
There are many verses in the major and minor prophets where God says he's going to turn the Jews over to the nations for chastisement. There are some very powerful verses in Zechariah, I believe it is, which indicate that he's full of wrath at how far the nations took that chastisement. I'll look for them and post the tomorrow. So God's wrath will be on the nations who went too far!
 
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KTatis

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God created everything good...It's in Genesis.

Just like cold is the absence of heat, or dark is the absence of light, then evil is the absence of good. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good. In other words, God does not create evil, He only allows it.
I don't think you read the verses. You cannot say that evil is the absence of good because without evil there is no good. You cannot have only goodness or only evilness. Any rational person will tell you this. So don't interpret the bible the way you want to just so it can fit how you view the world thats brainwashing yourself which is idiotic and it's downsizing yourself. Please, please understand this. The mind is a terrible thing to waste especially when you limit yourself to the bibles standard you are beyond an object aren't you? Are do you put the Bible before your own life?
 
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DArceri

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I don't think you read the verses. You cannot say that evil is the absence of good because without evil there is no good. You cannot have only goodness or only evilness. Any rational person will tell you this. So don't interpret the bible the way you want to just so it can fit how you view the world thats brainwashing yourself which is idiotic and it's downsizing yourself. Please, please understand this. The mind is a terrible thing to waste especially when you limit yourself to the bibles standard you are beyond an object aren't you? Are do you put the Bible before your own life?

Sorry my friend, I never said evil doesn't exist. Read my thread again. Evil does exist.

I also take offense of you accusing me of "brainswashing" just because it doesn't fit your interpretation. Where did that come from. Please argue your point without name calling. I think you need to show a little maturity. Plus, I HAVE NO CLUE WHAT THE HECK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
 
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DArceri

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The mind is a terrible thing to waste especially when you limit yourself to the bibles standard you are beyond an object aren't you? Are do you put the Bible before your own life?

Can you explain yourself. I am sure I am not the only one who wants to know what you mean by this.
 
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S

SpiritDriven

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Did you notice that God Judged Israel after he scattered them amongst the Nations ?

Yet he brought them back together for his holy names sake.....

Did you notice how Russia just so happened to be Communist under Stalin at the time of the rise of Nazi Germany ?

Look what happened.....do you see how God does all things after the counsel of his own will yet ?




All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the Host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, "What hast Thou done" (Daniel 4:35).


In regards to the Holocaust, who is there among you that could ward off the hand of God ?
Who amongst you is in a position to say to him.....What hast thou done !
 
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artybloke

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A world containing creatures who are significantly free (and freely perform more morally good than evil actions) is more valuable, all else being equal, than a world containing no free creatures at all.

Personally I'd agree with Plantinga here, but there's still a question as to why being a free creature is better than not being a free creature.
 
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SpiritDriven

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God works all things after the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1:11).

The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil (Proverbs 16:4).

All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the Host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, "What hast Thou done" (Daniel 4:35).

Everything God does will remain forever; there is nothing to add to it and there is nothing to take from it, for God has so worked that men should fear (be in awe) of Him (Eccl. 3:14).

The Lord of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand (Isaiah 14:24).

The Lord has both purposed and performed what He spoke concerning the inhabitants (Jeremiah 51:12).

His purpose will be established, and He will accomplish all His good pleasure (Isaiah 46:10).

There is One God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all (Ephesians 4:6

All live to Him (Luke 20:38).

God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28).

Whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified (Romans 8:30).

It does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy (Romans 9:16).

He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires (Romans 9:18).

God has shut up all men in disobedience that He may show mercy to all (Romans 11:32).

No one can resist His will (Romans 9:19).

The potter has a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor, and another for dishonor (Romans 9:21).

By His doing you are in Christ Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:30).

The Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills (1 Corinthians 12:11).

It is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:12-13).

The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up. The Lord makes poor and rich; He brings low, He also exalts (1 Samuel 2:6-7).

He is unique and who can turn Him? And what His soul desires, that He does. For He performs what is appointed for me, and many such decrees are with Him (Job 23:13-14).

The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps (Proverbs 16:9).

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord (Proverbs 16:33).

Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord will be established (Proverbs 19:21).

Man's steps are ordained by the Lord (Proverbs 20:24).

He is God, and there is no other. He has sworn by Himself, the word has gone forth from His mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Him every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance (Isaiah 45:22,23).

The time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see God’s glory. All mankind [lit., flesh] will come to bow down before Him (Isaiah 66:18,23).

A man's way is not in himself; Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps (Jeremiah 10:23).

--------------------
What free creature ? other than God himself.....there is no such thing...
 
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xristos.anesti

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So not everything is within God's power and he did not create everything?

Dear Brother, everything is within Divine power, but not everything is created by God - in a sense that results (consequences) of one's free will, the products of one's actions are not created by God. Also things created by men (houses, cars), animals (such as bird's nests) etc have not been created by God.

Evil is a product of actions on many levels of existance - evil as a product of destructive thought or destructive actions or both at the same or different time(s) etc.

The protoreason for evil is satan - God did not create satan - satan became such of his own free will and evil is the consequence of this becoming.

Many years.
 
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PaladinValer

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"I am Jehovah, and there is none else; besides me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known me; that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me: I am Jehovah, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, who does all these things." (Isa. 45:5-7)

I already countered this. Repeating it again doesn't prove anything. Challenge my reply, not repeat your opening statement.

It is important to note that the translation of verse 7 varies according to Bible version:

The NIV says, "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

The New American Standard Bible says: "The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these."

And the English Standard Version: "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things."

See? Disaster...calamity...vulcanos that destroy islands are disasters and calamities. Hurricanes are calamities and disasters. Are the forces of nature evil now? If so, then why not be a Manichean?

Thanks for doing all my work for me! :thumbsup:

So not everything is within God's power and he did not create everything?

I didn't say that or imply it; you put that illogical conclusion in my mouth.

Just because God is all-powerful doesn't mean He automatically exercises that power all the time.

Or let me put it in a way that is much easier: A person is born a savant in terms of reading and memorization and can read a thousand-page book in just two hours and remember everything. Does that mean that gifted individual uses that ability all the time? No. He or she can control it and choose to read slower and not pay as close attention.

People with disabilities are not forever bound to the quirks that come with them. Through help of medication and a lot of will and practice, a person with Asperger's Syndrome might be able to become very sociable with a great number of friends without the need of medication. Again, having the disability doesn't mean that the person is bound to suffer its consequences.

God created the Devil, but He is not responsible for the Devil's choices. The Devil had the choice, not God.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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So not everything is within God's power and he did not create everything?
Dear Catholic friend, learn your St. Augustine...

Evil is not a positive entity, like a rock or a squirrel. Evil is not 'being.' Evil is non-being. It is the lack of the good creation. All evil consists is the breaking down of the good creation. It is a vacuum of created goodness.

The evil in premarital sex is the lack of marriage.
The evil in lying is the lack of truth.
And so on.

God created all things and declared them all 'good,' but when Satan and humanity began destroying bits of that creation, it detracted from the fullness of creation. Hence, the origin of evil- our own destructive capacities, not God.
 
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DArceri

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Personally I'd agree with Plantinga here, but there's still a question as to why being a free creature is better than not being a free creature.

Well, Godly character is both developed and revealed by tests and all of life is a test. We are tested by not only personal tragedies but also senseless acts of terrorism in the world like 9/11 and the Holocaust. God is ONLY Glorified when man is given the free choice to believe or not to believe in Him during our "short" stay on this "broken" earth. Those who truly believe and trust Him will also Glorify Him and are thus His chosen ones, His children.... In other words, the question that can be asked is, how is God Glorified in any way if He doesn't give us free will to choose Him? So evil does serve a purpose and God allows it to exist for a reason.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Personally I'd agree with Plantinga here, but there's still a question as to why being a free creature is better than not being a free creature.
Honestly, and I know this sounds like a bit of a cop-out, but I take it as axiomatic that freedom is better than tyranny- even the good tyranny of God. It is better that creatures would freely obey the laws of God than be forced to obey.
 
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SpiritDriven

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The Doctrines of Demons that the apostle Paul warns us about.....

The Doctrine of Free Will is the worst.....it has people boasting before God that they are saved by an act of their own alledged Free Will.......

It does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy (Romans 9:16).

By His doing you are in Christ Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:30).

No one can resist His will (Romans 9:19).

As you can see the word of God exposes the Doctrine of the Demon every time.........

Some people might say I try to use Scripture out of context.... I say to you, the word of God is irrefutable in every instance in regards to God and every man.


Peace
 
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DArceri

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The Doctrines of Demons that the apostle Paul warns us about.....

The Doctrine of Free Will is the worst.....it has people boasting before God that they are saved by an act of their own alledged Free Will.......

It does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy (Romans 9:16).

By His doing you are in Christ Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:30).

No one can resist His will (Romans 9:19).

As you can see the word of God exposes the Doctrine of the Demon every time.........

Some people might say I try to use Scripture out of context.... I say to you, the word of God is irrefutable in every instance in regards to God and every man.


Peace
The discussion has digressed here a bit. We are not discussing Calvanism vs Arminianism. We are discussing why evil exists. My point is that God allows evil to exist for various reasons I'ved explained above.
 
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SpiritDriven

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The discussion has digressed here a bit. We are not discussing Calvanism vs Arminianism. We are discussing why evil exists. My point is that God allows evil to exist for various reasons I'ved explained above.

I whole heartly agree with you.....so does the word of God as well....

No one speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it. It is from the mouth of the Most High that both good and evil go forth. No living mortal, or any man, should offer complaint in view of his sins (Lam. 3:37-39).

So who has free will to choose between good and evil ?

Only God.....so the discussion did not digress at all really


Peace
 
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DArceri

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I whole heartly agree with you.....so does the word of God as well....

No one speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it. It is from the mouth of the Most High that both good and evil go forth. No living mortal, or any man, should offer complaint in view of his sins (Lam. 3:37-39).

So who has free will to choose between good and evil ?

Only God.....so the discussion did not digress at all really


Peace

Do you believe in rewards in heaven?
 
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