Grace, Faith and Works Are Necessary for Salvation!

epobre · Feb 3, 2002

Friends,

Apostle James wrote in James 2:17, 20 and 26 that "faith WITHOUT works is DEAD." Adherents of the "faith alone" doctrine take this to mean that apostle James was talking about works that are to be done AFTER one is saved by "faith alone."

They further assert that these are works that are expected to be done by a person who has been "saved by faith alone" in order to prove his faith.

Apostle James says in James 2:24 that "man is JUSTIFIED by works, and NOT by faith only." And apostle Paul wrote in Titus 3:7 that those who "have been JUSTIFIED by grace become HEIRS according to the hope of eternal life."

From this verses, we can understand that in order for one to BECOME an HEIR according to the hope of eternal life (salvation), one MUST be JUSTIFIED by grace and by works IN ADDITION to faith.

GRACE is the mercy and kindness of God toward men (Titus 3:4-5). This is a given and therefore moot and academic.

WORKS is the washing of regeneration and renewing of spirit (Titus 3:5). This is where BAPTISM comes into the picture. Professing Christians ABHOR this!

FAITH is the BELIEF and TRUST: 1) in Jesus as SAVIOR; and 2) that Jesus WILL SAVE those who BELIEVE in him (John 3:16, 18, 36), ABIDE in his words (John 8:31) and DO as he says (Luke 6:46). Professing Christians coveniently stop at number 1 and although they PROFESS belief in Jesus, they refuse to do as he says.

The Bible says (John 3:1

that these people are CONDEMNED already because they have NOT believed in the name of the only begotten son of God.

Assuredly, as the Bible says, they will be counted among the rest of the DEAD that will NOT rise again until the 1000 years is finished (Rev. 20:5).

Ed

WhitBit · Feb 3, 2002

Eph 2:8-10 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Pretty explicit - not any room for bargaining. Thus the defending theologians support the standpoint that works ensure our walk of faith and are not an issue when we initially are cleansed by the blood of Christ.

While I do feel that Christians cannot rely on simply the act of initial salvation to count as "finishing the race," if works were required to be saved -PERIOD- then we would be able to boast, as Paul says we mustn't. We have nothing to do with God's gift of grace, other than we must accept it to be saved. Works are required for the Christian walk, to run the race. They do no save us. People who "accept" God's provision at one point and "return to their vomit" are dead "Christians" ... and will have to answer for their actions.

as to this...
-"The Bible says (John 3:1 that these people are CONDEMNED already because they have NOT believed in the name of the only begotten son of God."-

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews

1John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

I'm assuming you meant to refer to 1John instead of John? Last time I checked...I was not of this world and not in the second category anyway, though I'm not sure how you've concluded what you have from this verse *shrug.* I know who Jesus is and for you to claim exclusivity to this knowledge over "professing Christians" is somewhat offensive. I do not know your heart, do not assume to know mine.

epobre · Feb 4, 2002

callmewhit,

Apostle Paul explains what he means by Eph. 2:8-9 when he writes in Titus 3:5 that "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy (grace), he saved us THROUGH the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit (work motivated by faith)."

Works of righteousness which are NOT in accordance with the WILL of God CANNOT save anyone just as "faith alone" CANNOT save anyone..

But washing of regeneration is WORK done in accordance with the WILL of the Father in heaven (Matt. 7:21). This means BAPTISM into the BODY of Christ where God PLANS to gather together everything in Christ (Eph. 1:9-10). And this is also what Christ was supposed to do while he was on earth (John 11:52 TEV). That's why Jesus says in John 10:9 that "I am the door. If anyone ENTERS by me, he will be saved."

Thus, anyone who has FAITH in Jesus must BELIEVE Jesus and DO as he says in order that God's GRACE may not be in vain.

John chapter three verse eighteen says "he who DOES NOT believe is CONDEMNED already." For the life of me, a smiley face ALWAYS covers the number eight whenever I post this verse using numerals! Could the DEVIL be at work here?

Ed

WhitBit · Feb 4, 2002

-"For the life of me, a smiley face ALWAYS covers the number eight whenever I post this verse using numerals! Could the DEVIL be at work here?"-

Or...could it be that when you type 8 with a consecutive ), the end result is

?? Disable your emoticons, hon, and it'll quit doing that. Or, better yet, preview your posts for such errors before submitting

As to your interpretation of the scripture...

"Have you lost your senses? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? You have suffered so much for the Good News. Surely it was not in vain, was it? Are you now going to just throw it all away?" - Galatians 3:3-4

Paul felt pretty strongly about this - he mentions it in almost every letter he writes. Works are the fruit of the Spirit, not some petty things we do in order to gain, attain, sustain, or ensure favor with the Lord.

Ed, I know that you began this post to pick a fight. Your views are no secret to anyone on this board - and they defy the testimony of Christ, in that while we were yet sinners, He died to set us free...not so that we could work our way into faith. Christian Workshop isn't meant to become a forum of doctrinal finger-pointing, but of open-minded debate of Christians. The Interfaith forum is wide open ...I encourage you to keep in mind where you post. I am not implying that you do not know who Jesus is...but that when you begin adding stipulations to grace, you get into sticky situations. We all continue to keep you in our prayers...God bless you!

Josephus · Feb 4, 2002

Yes ed, you really should be posting in Interfaith Discussion or the Round Table forums. The Workshop is meant for discussion between Christians who believe in the same essentials of Christianity - namely that salvation is only found in Jesus Christ and nothing else.

This forum is for the edification and building up of others in their faith, not a reoganization of their essential Christian doctrine.

The Interfaith forum was practically created for you ed to post questions your doctrine raises with others who are from other kinds of churches who believe differently in what one needs for salvation.

The Workshop is off-limits to those who don't believe Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.

The Inglesia Ni Christo, of which you are from, does not believe that. They believe their church is the only way to God. Since that is the foudation of your disagreements with other doctrines in this forum, you are hearby asked to remove your conversations to the Interfaith Discussions forum. as this thread will be moved there in due time.

epobre · Feb 5, 2002

callmewhit/josephus,

Aren't we at the Interfaith Discussion forum? Please look again!

You wrote:

As to your interpretation of the scripture...

"Have you lost your senses? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? You have suffered so much for the Good News. Surely it was not in vain, was it? Are you now going to just throw it all away?" - Galatians 3:3-4

Paul felt pretty strongly about this - he mentions it in almost every letter he writes. Works are the fruit of the Spirit, not some petty things we do in order to gain, attain, sustain, or ensure favor with the Lord.

First, you forgot that apostle Paul was talking to members of the church of Christ (Rom. 16:16). These are people who have DONE the WILL of God (Matt. 7:21; Eph. 1:9-10) and have been WASHED of the regeneration (Titus 3:5) because they had FAITH in Jesus and BELIEVED his command to ENTER the fold, got BAPTIZED (Mark 16:16) and were ADDED to the church (Acts 2:41, 47), Christ's BODY (Col. 1:verse eighteen)..

Second, apostle Paul was rebuking the Galatians for being easily deceived by those who are preaching FALSE doctrines (Gal. 1:6-

.

You wrote:

Ed, I know that you began this post to pick a fight. Your views are no secret to anyone on this board - and they defy the testimony of Christ, in that while we were yet sinners, He died to set us free...not so that we could work our way into faith.

Romans 5:8 is addressed to people who have ENTERED the BODY or church of Christ. It is the church that Christ PURCHASED with his own blood (Acts 20:verse twenty eight) , the church that Christ GAVE his life for (Eph. 5:25, and the church that Christ WILL SAVE (Eph. 5:23).

If you are NOT yet INSIDE the BODY or church of Christ, this letter is NOT for you.

You wrote:

Christian Workshop isn't meant to become a forum of doctrinal finger-pointing, but of open-minded debate of Christians. The Interfaith forum is wide open ...I encourage you to keep in mind where you post.

I believe I'm in the Interfaith Discussion forum. Aren't you?

You wrote:

I am not implying that you do not know who Jesus is...but that when you begin adding stipulations to grace, you get into sticky situations. We all continue to keep you in our prayers...God bless you!

Jesus was in more sticky situations than I am. The TRUTH is he went to the cross for his beliefs. Grace is the love, kindness and mercy of God towards men (Titus 3:4-5). It cannot save anyone WITHOUT faith and works. WITHOUT these two, the grace of God is in vain.

Ed

LouisBooth · Feb 6, 2002

Ed, if a admin tells you something to do, do it.

epobre · Feb 6, 2002

Josephus,

You wrote:

Yes ed, you really should be posting in Interfaith Discussion or the Round Table forums. The Workshop is meant for discussion between Christians who believe in the same essentials of Christianity - namely that salvation is only found in Jesus Christ and nothing else.

Have I posted anything but that salvation is through faith in Jesus - that is, BELIEVING what Jesus says and DOING what he says?

You wrote:

The Workshop is off-limits to those who don't believe Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.

Have I posted anything to the effect that Jesus is NOT the ONLY way to salvation?

You wrote:

The Inglesia Ni Christo, of which you are from, does not believe that. They believe their church is the only way to God. Since that is the foudation of your disagreements with other doctrines in this forum, you are hearby asked to remove your conversations to the Interfaith Discussions forum. as this thread will be moved there in due time.

The Iglesia Ni Cristo upholds the belief that Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation. However, we DIFFER in the manner in which we "BELIEVE in Jesus."

YOU believe in Jesus by believing that he died on the cross, was buried and was raised again on the third day. And that confessing that Jesus is Lord and ACCEPTING him as your savior, you are saved by INVITING him INTO your heart by means of PRAYER.

YOU believe that Jesus is God DESPITE his saying that he is a MAN and the FATHER is the ONLY true God.

YOU recognize ONLY the Jesus who died on the cross and REJECT the church, his BODY.

YOU refuse to submit yourselves to the authority of Christ by REJECTING the importance of being INSIDE the church, his BODY.

On the other hand, the Iglesia Ni Cristo RECOGNIZES not only the Jesus that died on the cross but ALSO the church or his BODY of which he is the HEAD. This is the ONE NEW man that Christ CREATED in himself that man may be reconciled to God in this ONE body.

Accepting Christ WITHOUT his BODY is like accepting a half-bodied man. Where I came from, you would be accepting a vampire or "asuwang" in the vernacular.

In other words, accepting Jesus MINUS his BODY is half-truth and therefore a FALSE doctrine.

Ed

JOhnPreparer · Apr 29, 2002

Eph 2:8-10 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works

First - we being pardon (grace and mercy of God through Christ)
Second - we need to be grateful (Thank Lord and accept Him as Master and Saviour)
Third - we need to be renewed (In mind and in spirit)
FOurth - Be the servant of God....

jp - Don't said you love God if you hate your bro and sis.

JohnR7 · Apr 29, 2002

"faith WITHOUT works is DEAD."

Our works are filthy rags before God.

John 14:12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

The works we are to be doing are to be greater than the works that Jesus did.

Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

The works we are to be doing is really the work of God in us and though us. Our greatest work really is to honor God and to glorify Him. We give a witness and a testimony to what God is doing in this world today.

Are you saved Ed? If you are, then the works you are to be doing are to: "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons."

Anyone who is not doing these works simply has a form of godliness, but denys the power of God. Thanks, JohnR7

2 Tim. 3:5 having a form of godliness but denying its power.

JohnR7 · Apr 29, 2002

>>the importance of being INSIDE the church, his BODY.

I believe the atonement was two fold. Jesus died to reconcil us with the Father, but also so we could be reconciled with one another. Jesus said the evidence of our love for God is the love we have, one for another. If we do not love our brother that we can see, then how can we claim to love our Heavenly Father that we can not see.

We are in the latter rain, this is greater than the early rain. IF the Early Church could abide together in one mind and one accord, then how much more will the latter church abide together in unity & agreement with the mind of Christ. Thanks, JohnR7

Philip. 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,

1 Cor. 2:16b we have the mind of Christ.

1 Cor. 1:10b that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Katya · Apr 29, 2002

Which do you follow?

To be saved all you have to do is believe in Christ. That is it. EASY

Or to be saved one must believe in Christ, but also recongize their weaknesses and then repent and change. This will require much effort and work on our part, but will gain us the most growth towards perfection.

What do we like to choose? The path of least resistance. :clap:

Brother_Joey_Gowdy · Apr 29, 2002

Im a Christian...
Denomination: Indepentent Baptist

Believe/Recieve the Lord Jesus Christ and Thou shalt be saved and thy house.

What can wash away my sins... nothing but the Blood of Jesus !!

(i will get flammed for that- but thats fine- atleast im preaching the Word in season and OUT of season)

Andrew · Apr 29, 2002

Is it really that hard to understand what "saved by grace" means?

Why do Christians on the one hand profess that they are saved by grace yet continue in the flesh?

quote-----------------
one MUST be JUSTIFIED by grace and by works IN ADDITION to faith.
-----------------
This above doctrine is what Paul calls witchcraft:

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Nick_Loves_Abba · Apr 29, 2002

I think the scripture "faith without works is dead" means that a Christain who doesn't produce good fruit, or maybe produces bad fruit, has dead faith. Good works are a manifestation of becoming saved, not a requirement of becoming saved. If your saved you'll want to do good, or do better than you were before.

JohnR7 · Apr 29, 2002

>>Or to be saved one must believe in Christ, but also recongize their weaknesses and then repent and change.

We must be born again. That means the old self my die, and we must yield to God to allow Him to do a work in our life. It does not have to be difficult, but at times, it can be difficult for some people to yield and to submit themselves to God. It depends on how stubborn they are.

kern · Apr 29, 2002

Originally posted by JohnR7
"faith WITHOUT works is DEAD."

Our works are filthy rags before God.

That so-commonly quoted Isaiah verse applies to apostate Jerusalem, not humanity as a whole. You must always consider the context of a passage, not just a single verse.

-Chris

JohnR7 · Apr 29, 2002

>>That so-commonly quoted Isaiah verse applies to apostate Jerusalem, not humanity as a whole.

No, "not humanity as a whole", but apostate Jerusalem is a shaddow and a type of the apostate church today. A friend of mine is Roman Catholic, and he uses the word: "modernism" instead of the word "apostate". Thanks, JohnR7

Galatians 4:25-26 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- [26] but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

cheezit · Apr 29, 2002

Let me ask you this epobre. If a person is on his death bed and he accepts Christ as his saviour as he is taking his last breath, will he go to hell because he didn't do any works?

Remember the thief on the cross next to Jesus? He didn't do any works either, yet Jesus told him "Today, you will be with me in Paradise".

All the works that a person does after they are saved are to glorify the Lord. And if your salvation is real, that is what you will want to do -- Glorify the Lord.

Ben johnson · Apr 29, 2002

Ed, you are right, and you are wrong.

It is "belief" that saves us. Jn1:12 BUt Jesus also said some very direct things:

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord! Lord!' shall inherit the kingdom, but he who DOES THE WILL of the Father." Matt7:21

"Unless you become humbled as a child, you will not enter the kingdom of Heaven." Matt18:3-5

"Unless you REPENT, you will PERISH!" Lk13:3

"I tell you, unless you are BORN AGAIN you cannot see the kingdom of God." Jn3:3

Which of these are true? ALL of them. The last one is the foundation of the rest. As Nick said, "you will produce good works if you are saved".

Salvation is "JESUS-IN-YOU". Simple. While we ARE saved by works, we are not saved by OUR works (Eph2:8). Because, salvation being FELLOWSHIP WITH/IN/THROUGH Jesus, it is JESUS who does the works THROUGH us! Philip2:12-13, Gal2:20, Eph2:10

JESUS owns our good works, 'cause it's HIM who DOES them THROUGH us. So James says that not-just-any-faith-is-saved, but the kind that DOES the good works as a CONSEQUENCE.

So faith (from ourselves, not "a gift from God" Rom10:17) is what realizes God's saving gift of grace, and that has NOTHING to do with works.

BUt---the KIND of faith that RECEIVES salvation, WILL do the good works.

Works, including water-baptism, have nothing to do with salvation; but they have everything to do with "HAVING-BEEN-SAVED".

Clear as mud???

Grace, Faith and Works Are Necessary for Salvation!

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