Are Trinitarians Christians?
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Originally posted by wblastyn
Justin Martyr's belief was WRONG. From whom did he learn that Jesus was the logos, the word made flesh who was God? Did Justin talk to God? Did Jesus teach Justin this? Show me where in the Bible doies it say that "Jesus was the logos."
Tertullian like Justin were WRONG. Their belief that Jesus was God was based on their own personal opinion.
Show me the verse where Jesus TRULY claimed equality with God or made himself God. The Jews wanted to kill Jesus so they FALSELY accused him of BLASPHEMY, that is, being a MAN, he MADE himself God.
When Jesus said he was the Son of God, he was NOT saying he is God the Son. When he said God is his Father, he was NOT making himself equal to God. In FACT, he said that the Father is GREATER than he.
The allegation that Jesus CLAIMED he was God is what the Jews WANTED people to believe to justify their killing him.
On the contrary, Jesus will say to you, "But why call me 'Lord, Lord' but do NOT do the things which I say" (Luke 6:46). Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER alone is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).
Yet, you INSIST that he (the SON), is God. Jesus says "you are CONDEMNED already because you have NOT believed the only begotten SON of God (John 3:18).
Ed
Justin Martyr's belief was WRONG. From whom did he learn that Jesus was the logos, the word made flesh who was God? Did Justin talk to God? Did Jesus teach Justin this? Show me where in the Bible doies it say that "Jesus was the logos."
Tertullian like Justin were WRONG. Their belief that Jesus was God was based on their own personal opinion.
Show me the verse where Jesus TRULY claimed equality with God or made himself God. The Jews wanted to kill Jesus so they FALSELY accused him of BLASPHEMY, that is, being a MAN, he MADE himself God.
When Jesus said he was the Son of God, he was NOT saying he is God the Son. When he said God is his Father, he was NOT making himself equal to God. In FACT, he said that the Father is GREATER than he.
The allegation that Jesus CLAIMED he was God is what the Jews WANTED people to believe to justify their killing him.
On the contrary, Jesus will say to you, "But why call me 'Lord, Lord' but do NOT do the things which I say" (Luke 6:46). Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER alone is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).
Yet, you INSIST that he (the SON), is God. Jesus says "you are CONDEMNED already because you have NOT believed the only begotten SON of God (John 3:18).
Ed
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Philp 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be
equal with God:
Phil. 2:6 -- The "Who" that begins the verse describes Christ Jesus, of Phil. 2:5, Whose mind we are to have. This verse explains the perfect example of the One we are to emulate in this respect -- a perfect example of humility. Of course, we cannot go to the depths of humility He did, leaving Heaven to fulfill the scheme of redemption. Before this humility, Christ was in the "form of God." "Form" is from [@morfe] which "denotes the special or characteristic form or feature of a person or thing."<3> It is used only of Christ (Phil. 2:6-7). "The `form' of anything is the manner in which it reveals itself; and this, of course, is determined by the nature which it has. Christ was in the form of God -- deity -- therefore, he possessed the nature of deity."<4> Thayer says He bore the form "in which he appeared to the inhabitants of heaven."<5> Being (existing -- ASV) (from [@huparchon]) is said to describe the continual nature of Christ -- first referring to His pre-incarnate state, and in no way suggesting loss of His Deity by incarnation. The word being has "a backward look into an antecedent condition, which has been protracted into the present."<6> The meaning is that He continued to exist in that form. Robbery (a thing to be grasped -- ASV) indicates that Christ in the form of God did not consider it something to hold on to or maintain. Equal points out that He was the same in quality as God the Father. He was equal with the Father, and maintained that form of God. "Jesus did not resign, or in any way give up His deity in the incarnation. Throughout the entire course of His life in the flesh here upon earth He retained fully and completely the divine nature, the complex of attributes essential to His being the Second Person of the eternal Trinity."<7> That Divine nature of Christ involved His "form," as discussed above. The Word was God and was with God, and was One with Him (John 1:1-3; 10:30).
While in the form of God, He was "on an equality with God" (ASV) (i.e., equal to God -- of the same quality, John 5:18). At that point, He did not exist as the Son of God, or even as Christ Jesus, but these words are the way we identify Him since the incarnation. He was in the form of God and left that form to take on another form. He became the Son of God through the virgin birth, and was called Jesus (meaning "Savior," Matt. 1:21), and Christ (anointed one).
Phil. 2:7 -- First, Jesus "made himself of no reputation" or "emptied himself" (ASV) of His glorious state to redeem man. He was willing to give up His state of glory, where He was visible as God, and leave it to form another appearance. He did not lose the very nature He had, but his immediate presence on earth took on another visible form to a different group of observers. He surely did not empty Himself of Deity, or of His Godhood, but of the glory of being with the Father (John 17:5). Second, having emptied Himself, Jesus took on another form. His appearance was now that of a bondservant. He was made in the "likeness of men." His appearance was now as a human being, which does not mean He only looked like men (but really was not a man). He was in the form of flesh (Rom. 8:3) with a body: "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9). He partook of flesh and blood, which was subject to physical death as one of the seed of Abraham, like His brethren, and was tempted as a man (Heb. 2:14-18).
John wrote, "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God" (1 John 4:2). "The word was made flesh" (John 1:14). "What Christ grasped at in His incarnation was not divine sovereignty, but service .... The totality of His being could not appear to men, for that involved the form of God. Hence the apostle views Him solely as He could appear to men."<8> Jesus said He was among the disciples as one that served (Luke 22:27). His service during His personal ministry preceded His service to the world through His ultimate sacrifice.
Phil. 2:8 -- The Lord was "found," or observed, as man's attention was drawn to Him. He was found to be a man -- a human being. He had no ordinary features or beauty that would elevate Him above others (Isa. 53:2). Fashion ([@schema]) refers to His outward appearance as a servant, in the likeness of men. He had flesh and bones just as everyone else did, and had the appetites and desires of the flesh as other human beings did. "Man" describes Jesus even after His ascension. Though Christ left the "form" of man to return to the glory of God, He is still "the man, Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5). So, He was truly God and truly man, although in physical characteristics He was known and recognized as a man. Angels often made their appearances as men, but Jesus made a unique appearance in that He was born a man.
Jesus "humbled" Himself, or was made low. First, He humbled himself by being made man, and second, He humbled Himself to the point of dying as a man -- in a special way. The noun form of "humbled" is translated "low estate" in Luke 1:48. It is used in connection with the Lord's "humiliation" in Acts 8:33, as Philip quoted from Isa. 53. In Phil. 3:21 Paul uses this word to refer to our "vile" body (of our low estate, "humiliation" -- ASV), which shall ultimately become like the glorious body of Jesus.
Note: The humiliation of Christ involved more than merely "emptying himself" of glory with God the Father. It involved also what He did afterward while in fashion as a man -- becoming obedient unto death. Jesus learned obedience to the Father. "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered" (Heb. 5:8). He came down from Heaven to do God's will (John 6:38), which involved His death. Even in Gethsemane, He dreaded the ordeal of death, but prayed that God's will be done (Matt. 26:39,42). Jesus was obedient unto death, which is modified by the phrase, "even the death of the cross." He was obedient to the point of death at the hands of His enemies, who chose the most cruel form of death -- that of the cross. The law had said that when one died on the cross, he was cursed. Jesus became a curse for us in His death. Man was cursed because of sin, but Jesus took that curse upon Himself in His humiliation (Gal. 3:13).
"He was `found in fashion as a man.' His outward appearance was altogether human. He so appeared to men. They so regarded him. He was so `found' by them. Such was his `fashion,' his outward guise. In reality he was much more. Had the eyes of men been opened they would have realized that they who had seen him had seen the Father. Yet they saw in him only a man, and indeed a man who was `despised, and rejected, ... a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief'; for his voluntary humiliation did not consist merely in assuming actual humanity, but `he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.'
"His voluntary humiliation which made him wholly subject to the will of his Father led him even as far as death, and that, too, death in its most terrible and revolting form. The cross was the very symbol of disgrace, agony, and shame. Crucifixion could be inflicted upon no Roman citizen. It was visited only upon the worst of criminals. To one who suffered this mode of death, the law of Moses attached a curse (Deut. 21:23; Gal. 3:13.) With the mention of such ignominy the picture of Christ's stooping from glory reaches its climax. His unselfish service brought him all the way from the throne of divine majesty to the cross on Calvary."<9>
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be
equal with God:
Phil. 2:6 -- The "Who" that begins the verse describes Christ Jesus, of Phil. 2:5, Whose mind we are to have. This verse explains the perfect example of the One we are to emulate in this respect -- a perfect example of humility. Of course, we cannot go to the depths of humility He did, leaving Heaven to fulfill the scheme of redemption. Before this humility, Christ was in the "form of God." "Form" is from [@morfe] which "denotes the special or characteristic form or feature of a person or thing."<3> It is used only of Christ (Phil. 2:6-7). "The `form' of anything is the manner in which it reveals itself; and this, of course, is determined by the nature which it has. Christ was in the form of God -- deity -- therefore, he possessed the nature of deity."<4> Thayer says He bore the form "in which he appeared to the inhabitants of heaven."<5> Being (existing -- ASV) (from [@huparchon]) is said to describe the continual nature of Christ -- first referring to His pre-incarnate state, and in no way suggesting loss of His Deity by incarnation. The word being has "a backward look into an antecedent condition, which has been protracted into the present."<6> The meaning is that He continued to exist in that form. Robbery (a thing to be grasped -- ASV) indicates that Christ in the form of God did not consider it something to hold on to or maintain. Equal points out that He was the same in quality as God the Father. He was equal with the Father, and maintained that form of God. "Jesus did not resign, or in any way give up His deity in the incarnation. Throughout the entire course of His life in the flesh here upon earth He retained fully and completely the divine nature, the complex of attributes essential to His being the Second Person of the eternal Trinity."<7> That Divine nature of Christ involved His "form," as discussed above. The Word was God and was with God, and was One with Him (John 1:1-3; 10:30).
While in the form of God, He was "on an equality with God" (ASV) (i.e., equal to God -- of the same quality, John 5:18). At that point, He did not exist as the Son of God, or even as Christ Jesus, but these words are the way we identify Him since the incarnation. He was in the form of God and left that form to take on another form. He became the Son of God through the virgin birth, and was called Jesus (meaning "Savior," Matt. 1:21), and Christ (anointed one).
Phil. 2:7 -- First, Jesus "made himself of no reputation" or "emptied himself" (ASV) of His glorious state to redeem man. He was willing to give up His state of glory, where He was visible as God, and leave it to form another appearance. He did not lose the very nature He had, but his immediate presence on earth took on another visible form to a different group of observers. He surely did not empty Himself of Deity, or of His Godhood, but of the glory of being with the Father (John 17:5). Second, having emptied Himself, Jesus took on another form. His appearance was now that of a bondservant. He was made in the "likeness of men." His appearance was now as a human being, which does not mean He only looked like men (but really was not a man). He was in the form of flesh (Rom. 8:3) with a body: "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9). He partook of flesh and blood, which was subject to physical death as one of the seed of Abraham, like His brethren, and was tempted as a man (Heb. 2:14-18).
John wrote, "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God" (1 John 4:2). "The word was made flesh" (John 1:14). "What Christ grasped at in His incarnation was not divine sovereignty, but service .... The totality of His being could not appear to men, for that involved the form of God. Hence the apostle views Him solely as He could appear to men."<8> Jesus said He was among the disciples as one that served (Luke 22:27). His service during His personal ministry preceded His service to the world through His ultimate sacrifice.
Phil. 2:8 -- The Lord was "found," or observed, as man's attention was drawn to Him. He was found to be a man -- a human being. He had no ordinary features or beauty that would elevate Him above others (Isa. 53:2). Fashion ([@schema]) refers to His outward appearance as a servant, in the likeness of men. He had flesh and bones just as everyone else did, and had the appetites and desires of the flesh as other human beings did. "Man" describes Jesus even after His ascension. Though Christ left the "form" of man to return to the glory of God, He is still "the man, Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5). So, He was truly God and truly man, although in physical characteristics He was known and recognized as a man. Angels often made their appearances as men, but Jesus made a unique appearance in that He was born a man.
Jesus "humbled" Himself, or was made low. First, He humbled himself by being made man, and second, He humbled Himself to the point of dying as a man -- in a special way. The noun form of "humbled" is translated "low estate" in Luke 1:48. It is used in connection with the Lord's "humiliation" in Acts 8:33, as Philip quoted from Isa. 53. In Phil. 3:21 Paul uses this word to refer to our "vile" body (of our low estate, "humiliation" -- ASV), which shall ultimately become like the glorious body of Jesus.
Note: The humiliation of Christ involved more than merely "emptying himself" of glory with God the Father. It involved also what He did afterward while in fashion as a man -- becoming obedient unto death. Jesus learned obedience to the Father. "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered" (Heb. 5:8). He came down from Heaven to do God's will (John 6:38), which involved His death. Even in Gethsemane, He dreaded the ordeal of death, but prayed that God's will be done (Matt. 26:39,42). Jesus was obedient unto death, which is modified by the phrase, "even the death of the cross." He was obedient to the point of death at the hands of His enemies, who chose the most cruel form of death -- that of the cross. The law had said that when one died on the cross, he was cursed. Jesus became a curse for us in His death. Man was cursed because of sin, but Jesus took that curse upon Himself in His humiliation (Gal. 3:13).
"He was `found in fashion as a man.' His outward appearance was altogether human. He so appeared to men. They so regarded him. He was so `found' by them. Such was his `fashion,' his outward guise. In reality he was much more. Had the eyes of men been opened they would have realized that they who had seen him had seen the Father. Yet they saw in him only a man, and indeed a man who was `despised, and rejected, ... a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief'; for his voluntary humiliation did not consist merely in assuming actual humanity, but `he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.'
"His voluntary humiliation which made him wholly subject to the will of his Father led him even as far as death, and that, too, death in its most terrible and revolting form. The cross was the very symbol of disgrace, agony, and shame. Crucifixion could be inflicted upon no Roman citizen. It was visited only upon the worst of criminals. To one who suffered this mode of death, the law of Moses attached a curse (Deut. 21:23; Gal. 3:13.) With the mention of such ignominy the picture of Christ's stooping from glory reaches its climax. His unselfish service brought him all the way from the throne of divine majesty to the cross on Calvary."<9>
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Blackhawk
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I think Justin read John 1 which clearly states that Jesus is the Logos. It takes just a few minutes to read but if you do Ed with an open mind there is no way one can say that John is not saying Jesus is God.
Again I think they read the gospel of John. Especially John 1.
Again read John 1 but do it slowly and with an open mind and it is clear that John is saying Jesus is God. we just went over it in Sunday school and I did not remember how clear it was until we went over it.
[/B][/QUOTE] On the contrary, Jesus will say to you, "But why call me 'Lord, Lord' but do NOT do the things which I say" (Luke 6:46). Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER alone is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). [/B][/QUOTE]
Why would they be calling Jesus Lord at all? And why would He let them call Him that? It is clear in the first verse you quoted that He is not arguing with them because they shoudl not of called Him Lord but because they do not obey Him but then call Him Lord. Who is Lord but God?
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franklin
Sexed up atheism = Pantheism
ct, I know I haven't come close to exposing false teaching, but the scripture has done that for me. I'm just the messenger! I will continue to maintain it is false. About a year ago I believed just like you!
post #76:
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=334315#post334315
post #117
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=339507#post339507
And what problem are you having with these passages in #76 & 117 that emphatically spells out the fact that Christ is not defined as God!? Do these passages contradict any of the other passages eveyone else is quoting in this thread? Think before you answer!
I John 4:3, "Every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come."
Just thought I'd throw in 1 Jn 4:3... how about this one? who do you say that Jesus is? This is not a strawman either, as you have accused me of doing in one of your other posts! Do you know what John is saying in this passage? Is he saying that, every spirit that confesses not that Jesus is God in the flesh? Again, think before you answer!
Nowhere in scripture is the trinity present. The only time it is there is when someone tells you its there. next question.......
Well, we do agree on something, the trinity defines God as three persons and that Jesus is God the Son but the scriptures do not!
I don't refute scripture, I refute mans teaching with scripture! Of all the passages the trinity defenders have quoted thus far, not one of them supports it! If anything they all refute it!
If that is the case then what about the scriptures I showed everyone in this thread, are they contradictions? I don't think so! That is not a blanket statement and I never said all those passages are mistranslations. There may be a few, but not many.
Show me where begotten and created have different meanings? Go to your Websters! And get back to me! it's just mincing words!
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I have no problems with these points they point out that Jesus is not God the father. Reread my question. The point of the trinity is not that Jesus is not God the father. This is not in question. However, showing that Jesus is not God the father is not the crux of what you have to do to show that the Trinity is false. You have to show that Jesus is not God. You have to explain why people who interpret the verses presented in which they say affirm that Jesus is God, are wrong in their interpretation.
Actually 1Jn 4:3 is not a complete sentence. Verse 3 is a continuation of a sentence which begins in verse 2. The entire sentence is clearly saying that if a spirit denies Christ came in the flesh, then the spirit is not of God. Let's look at the whole sentence:
"Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God."
So if you look at sentence rather than taking part of it, you would see that verse 3 is constrasting the point "Jesus has come in the flesh". This is a simple rule of english, at least read the entire sentences when trying to decipher meaning. The part of the sentence that finishes in verse 3 is a dependant clause on the one in the start of the sentence which begins in verse 2.
This is a clear example of not applying basic rules of English and coming up with a nonsensical inpretation or application. This sentence is not affirming nor denying the deity of Christ, rather it is talking on how to judge the spirit of those whose affirm or deny that Christ has come.
Again just saying this does not prove your point. The concept of the trinity is the name applied to the verses in the bible that clearly state that Christ is in fact God and that the Holy Spirit is in fact God and finally that God the father is in fact God. Saying that "the trinity is not in scripture" is not proving your assertion as what you need to prove is that the bible does not teach that Jesus is God and that the Holy Spirit is God.
Actually I have not seen you refute anything. Rather you seem to play word games and ignore clear scripture. I guess we will have to walk through each one, here is the first, :
John 20:28 -Thomas called Jesus God.
"And Thomas answered, and said unto him,My Lord and my God ."
Earlier in the gospels, when Satan tempted Christ by telling Christ to worship Satan, what did Jesus say?
Luke 4:8 Jesus answered, "It is written: Worship the Lord your God and serve him only."
What would it mean if Jesus accepted Thomas' worship of him if he was not in fact God? What does this verse say to you, in that if Christ thought Thomas was wrong to worship, why did he not do as Paul did when people tried to worship Paul? He seemed to have no trouble telling Satan that only God should be worshipped. Why wouldn't he say this to Thomas? If someone who accepted worship meant for God would that be a sin?
Again, you need to do more than parrot this statement repeatedly, you need to show how the verses which state that Christ is God have been mis-interpreted. Again, showing different verses which demonstrate that Christ was not God the falther do not do this. The Trinity affirms this same point. I've repeated this statement multiple times here, but hopefully you will get the point.
You are correct here. I was pressuming that you would cop out using this excuse and you haven't. This was wrong of me to make this assumption and I retract it with apologies.
Hmm, strongs makes a distinction between begoten in the parential sense versus the sense that it is used in John 3:16. Why is this. Is webster more authorative than strongs here. I don't think so. From the translators notes of John 3:16 of the NET bible:
"Although this word is often translated only begotten, such a translation is misleading, since in English it appears to express a metaphysical relationship. The word in Greek was used of an only child (a son [Luke 7:12, 9:38] or a daughter [Luke 8:42]). It was also used of something unique (only one of its kind) such as the mythological Phoenix (1 Clement 25:2). From here it passes easily to a description of Isaac (Heb 11:17 and Josephus, <I>Ant.</I> 1.13.1 [1.222]) who was not Abrahams <I>only</I> son, but was one-of-a-kind because he was the child of the promise. Thus the word means one-of-a-kind and is reserved for Jesus in the Johannine literature of the NT. While all Christians are children of God (tevkna qeou', tekna qeou), Jesus is Gods Son in a unique, one-of-a-kind sense. The word is used in this way in all its uses in the Gospel of John (1:14, 1:18, 3:16, and 3:18)."
So it seems that the scholars who translated the Greek to English believe that begot here should be interpreted unique and have nothing do do with procreation. Why should we take websters definition of the English translation over Greek scholars who understanding of the intent of the use of the word throughout scripture?
Now that its almost Monday, have a good week. I look forward to your response.
Regards,
Clinton
(Note edited to remove a cut and paste error in the last paragraph)
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Originally posted by Blackhawk
If your mind is truly open Blackhawk, tell me, where did apostle John learn that Jesus is God? Did God talk to him directly and told him that Jesus is God? Did Jesus teach his apostles that he is God?
Jesus TAUGHT that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).
If apostle John knew that Jesus was God, why did he write John 1:18 where he said "NO ONE has EVER seen God at ANY time? Didn't apostle John SAW Jesus? And why would apostle John say that Jesus DECLARED who God is if you say that apostle John has already DECLARED Jesus as God in John 1:1?
John 1:1 does NOT say that Jesus is the WORD of God that was WITH God and WAS God. It was the WORD that BECAME flesh (John 1:14). This FLESH that the WORD turned into is described from verse 2-13.
Why would they be calling Jesus Lord at all? And why would He let them call Him that? It is clear in the first verse you quoted that He is not arguing with them because they shoudl not of called Him Lord but because they do not obey Him but then call Him Lord. Who is Lord but God?
Isn't that what Catholics and Protestants do? They call Jesus 'Lord" but do NOT believe his words.
FYI, God MADE Jesus both LORD and Christ (Acts 2:36). And for Christians, there is only ONE God, the Father and only ONE Lord, Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 8:6).
Ed
If your mind is truly open Blackhawk, tell me, where did apostle John learn that Jesus is God? Did God talk to him directly and told him that Jesus is God? Did Jesus teach his apostles that he is God?
Jesus TAUGHT that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).
If apostle John knew that Jesus was God, why did he write John 1:18 where he said "NO ONE has EVER seen God at ANY time? Didn't apostle John SAW Jesus? And why would apostle John say that Jesus DECLARED who God is if you say that apostle John has already DECLARED Jesus as God in John 1:1?
John 1:1 does NOT say that Jesus is the WORD of God that was WITH God and WAS God. It was the WORD that BECAME flesh (John 1:14). This FLESH that the WORD turned into is described from verse 2-13.
Why would they be calling Jesus Lord at all? And why would He let them call Him that? It is clear in the first verse you quoted that He is not arguing with them because they shoudl not of called Him Lord but because they do not obey Him but then call Him Lord. Who is Lord but God?
Isn't that what Catholics and Protestants do? They call Jesus 'Lord" but do NOT believe his words.
FYI, God MADE Jesus both LORD and Christ (Acts 2:36). And for Christians, there is only ONE God, the Father and only ONE Lord, Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 8:6).
Ed
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OldShepherd
Zaqunraah
This is the big lie of all unitarians. They just keep parroting over and over again "Three gods. Three gods. Three gods." I have never encountered any "Onenesss" believer who could correctly and truthfully describe the Trinity, and the absolute worst are those who claim to have been Trinitarians. Every time you misrepresent the Trinity that is an out and out lie. When you take off your cult glasses and learn what the Trinity actually is I will be glad to discuss it with you.Originally posted by franklin
OS, this one is almost laughable! It's you guys who telling God that He is not one God but 3 ! When the scripture is emphatic that God is ONE!
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Blackhawk
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Are you debating whether the gospel of John is correct now or not Ed? But to answer your question Jesus taught that He was fully God and fully man. That He had a dal nature.
He also taught that He was God. We hav gone over these passages before so I will not bore both of us by putting back up there again. But in a nutshell Jesus accepted worship and declared that He had properties only God would have such as being eternal.
Well had anyone seen the incarnation of God before Jesus? Because Jesus showed us who God really is when He came and walked and talked with us. What I mean is that He showed us God more fully. WE have a hard time understanding God in te Spirit but through the incarnation things are easier. WE still can't explain Him but it is easier for us. Also Jesus was God's ltimate expression of Himself to us. He was the most important person and His life was the most important event in history. All of history was culminated in Jesus Christ.
The Word that became flesh is Jesus.
look at this.
John said that John the Baptist testified about the Word this.
John 1:15
15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, "He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me."'
(NAU)
Then John the Baptist says:
John 1:29-30
29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
30 "This is He on behalf of whom I said, "After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'
(NAU)
See the prophetic word about the Word is the same as the prophetic word about Jesus. The Word is Jesus.
Hmm that is interesting when one reads.
John 20:28-29
28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed {are} they who did not see, and {yet} believed."
(NAU)
It would seem that Jesus thought who was Lord was also God since Thomas declares Him as such above and Jesus says that He believed. Also He says the ones who are blessed are the ones who believe that He is "Lord and God" but did not physically see Jesus.
So then we have Ephesians.
Eph 4:4-6
4 {There is} one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
(NAU)
So Ed I think the Bible is clear that God is a triune God. John the Baptist believes Jesus is God and so did Paul and John. Thomas had to put his hands in Jesus' side to believe what will it take for you to believe in the Truth?
blackhawk
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Se7en
hasta la victoria siempre
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Upon further reading the past couple of days and a discussion with my father (my dad, not God...just to clarify), I have come to the conclusion...at least for now...that the trinity is a man made doctrine. There is only one member of the "Godhead"- Yahweh, the master and creator of ALL. However, His only begotten son, Yeshua, was annointed and exalted to be King of the Jews and Savior of all and now sits at the right hand of the Father, and is worthy of our praise. The Holy Spirit is nothing more than Yahweh's spirit, moving among men. There is but one God, Yahweh, and His annointed Son, Yeshua.
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<B>Originally posted by Blackhawk
I wrote:
You wrote:
Is that how you undertand my question Blackhawk? The gospel of John is without any doubt correct. What I am questioning is your belief that apostle John referred to Jesus as the WORD of God that WAS God. Where did apostle John LEARN that Jesus was the WORD of God that WAS God? Where in the Bible is your PROOF that Jesus TAUGHT his apostles that he is God? Where in the Bible is your PROOF that Jesus TAUGHT his apostles that he has a DUAL nature - fully MAN and fully GOD?
I wrote:
You wrote:
What I am asking is the specific verse that shows Jesus TEACHING his apostles that he is God. Jesus specifically TAUGHT that he is a MAN and the FATHER alone is the ONLY true God. The least you could do is show me where he specifically TAUGHT that he is ALSO God IN ADDITION to being a MAN.
What you have presented so far is your OPINION that he is God because he had properties only God would have such as being eternal (which is FALSE because Jesus DIED!) and he accepted worship. FACTS confirm, OPINIONS confuse!
I wrote:
You wrote:
Who are you referring to as fully God and fully man? Are we talking about the so-called "pre-incarnated Jesus " or the Jesus who walked on this earth? Instead of trying to confuse, why don't you admit that you CANNOT make any sense of the Trinity yourself?
If the Jesus who walked on this earth were God and apostle John SAW this Jesus, ate with him and even slept with him, why would he write that "NO ONE has ever SEEN God (Jesus for ONE) at ANY time? Tell me, my friend.
I wrote:
You wrote:
You are saying that "Jesus, the WORD" BECAME "Jesus, the FLESH." Do you UNDERSTAND what the word "BECAME" means? What do you call an EGG that has hatched and BECAME a chick? Do you call it true egg/true chick? Granted without admitting that Jesus was the WORD that WAS God and BECAME Jesus the MAN, are you saying that "Jesus, the WORD" did NOT really BECOME "Jesus, the MAN?" Are you saying that John 1:14 is FALSE?
You wrrote:
JIf you "emptied" your head of your Trinity BIAS, you would SEE that John the Baptist was referring to the FLESH that the WORD turned into. Why would John refer to the WORD as a "HE?"
You wrote:
The WORD is the PROPHECY regarding the redemption of the world THROUGH a child that will be born, a SON that will be given (Isaiah 7:14; Isaiah 9:6). The WORD is NOT Jesus.
I wrote:
You wrote:
Again, you are ASSUMING that Jesus THOUGHT Thomas was addressing him "my lord and my God." And worse, you are putting words in Jesus' mouth. You ADDED "he is Lord and God" to the verse which is a VIOLATION of God's command NOT to ADD anything to His word.
You wrote:
Apostle Paul wrote that for them, there is only ONE God, the Father... and only ONE Lord, Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 8:6). Show me where apostle Paul SPECIFICALLY says that Jesus is God.
Ed</B>
I wrote:
You wrote:
Is that how you undertand my question Blackhawk? The gospel of John is without any doubt correct. What I am questioning is your belief that apostle John referred to Jesus as the WORD of God that WAS God. Where did apostle John LEARN that Jesus was the WORD of God that WAS God? Where in the Bible is your PROOF that Jesus TAUGHT his apostles that he is God? Where in the Bible is your PROOF that Jesus TAUGHT his apostles that he has a DUAL nature - fully MAN and fully GOD?
I wrote:
You wrote:
What I am asking is the specific verse that shows Jesus TEACHING his apostles that he is God. Jesus specifically TAUGHT that he is a MAN and the FATHER alone is the ONLY true God. The least you could do is show me where he specifically TAUGHT that he is ALSO God IN ADDITION to being a MAN.
What you have presented so far is your OPINION that he is God because he had properties only God would have such as being eternal (which is FALSE because Jesus DIED!) and he accepted worship. FACTS confirm, OPINIONS confuse!
I wrote:
You wrote:
Who are you referring to as fully God and fully man? Are we talking about the so-called "pre-incarnated Jesus " or the Jesus who walked on this earth? Instead of trying to confuse, why don't you admit that you CANNOT make any sense of the Trinity yourself?
If the Jesus who walked on this earth were God and apostle John SAW this Jesus, ate with him and even slept with him, why would he write that "NO ONE has ever SEEN God (Jesus for ONE) at ANY time? Tell me, my friend.
I wrote:
You wrote:
You are saying that "Jesus, the WORD" BECAME "Jesus, the FLESH." Do you UNDERSTAND what the word "BECAME" means? What do you call an EGG that has hatched and BECAME a chick? Do you call it true egg/true chick? Granted without admitting that Jesus was the WORD that WAS God and BECAME Jesus the MAN, are you saying that "Jesus, the WORD" did NOT really BECOME "Jesus, the MAN?" Are you saying that John 1:14 is FALSE?
You wrrote:
JIf you "emptied" your head of your Trinity BIAS, you would SEE that John the Baptist was referring to the FLESH that the WORD turned into. Why would John refer to the WORD as a "HE?"
You wrote:
The WORD is the PROPHECY regarding the redemption of the world THROUGH a child that will be born, a SON that will be given (Isaiah 7:14; Isaiah 9:6). The WORD is NOT Jesus.
I wrote:
You wrote:
Again, you are ASSUMING that Jesus THOUGHT Thomas was addressing him "my lord and my God." And worse, you are putting words in Jesus' mouth. You ADDED "he is Lord and God" to the verse which is a VIOLATION of God's command NOT to ADD anything to His word.
You wrote:
Apostle Paul wrote that for them, there is only ONE God, the Father... and only ONE Lord, Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 8:6). Show me where apostle Paul SPECIFICALLY says that Jesus is God.
Ed</B>
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Se7en,
I'm glad your eyes have finally been opened to the TRUTH about the Trinity doctrine. The next LOGICAL step that you could take is to "come out of your church, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues" (Rev. 18:4).
Ed
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Job_38,
John 1:1 does NOT specifically say that Jesus is the WORD that was WITH God and WAS God. John 1:1 is about God's WORD or "logos" which means God's WISDOM manifest in the creation, government and redemption of the world. This WISDOM is manifest in God's PLAN for the Redemption and salvation of the world.
John 1:14 is apostle John's figurative description of the FULFILLMENT of God's PLAN with the birth of Jesus.
Ed
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It doesn't but let us see it in a logical view(not being demeaning at all ). He is saying this and then tells about Christ coming. I don't think he would jump from one topic to another in dealing with this.
). He is saying this and then tells about Christ coming. I don't think he would jump from one topic to another in dealing with this.
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Originally posted by Job_38
It doesn't but let us see it in a logical view(not being demeaning at all
The Bible is NOT written in a manner that a book or a magazine is written. Sometimes a verse does NOT refer to a preceeding verse.
John 1:1-15 can be more easily understood if read in the following logical order: John 1:1; John 1:14; John 1:2-3; John 1:10-13; John 1:4-9; John 1:15.
Try it . You'll understand John 1 better.
Ed
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How in the name of logic can you deny that the word spoken of here is Jesus?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 He was in the beginning with God.
Whatever this word mentioned here is we can clearly see that it was in the BEGINNING. We can also see that it was with God. Which shows clearly that there were 2 here the WORD and GOD. Then we are told that the word was God. This clearly shows that the word itself was also God but distinct from another called God. Then it rempsized in verse 2. HE (WORD) was in the begining with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Here we find out a clue how this word is. We can note that All things were made through him. Who could that possible be.
HEb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by <I>His </I>Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
Eph 3:9 and to make all see what <I>is </I>the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Even a child could understand that the word is refereing to Jesus. These verses clearly show that Jesus was in the beginning with the father and the father created everything through Jesus/word. If your still not convinced try out these verses.
John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
1cort 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
Notice the following comparison using the 1chapter of John and 1John.
"In the beginning ([@en] [@arche]) was the Word." (John 1:1)
"That which was from the beginning" ([@ap'] [@arches]). (1 John 1:1)
"And the Word was with God ... ([@pros] [@ton] [@Theon]) (John 1:1)
The Life ... which was with the Father" ([@pros] [@ton] [@patera]) (1 John 1:2)
"In him was life" ([@zoe]).(John 1:4)
The Life ... which was with the Father" ([@pros] [@ton] [@patera]) (1 John 1:2)
"The light shineth" (John 1:5)
"The life was manifested."(1John 1:2)
"We beheld ([@etheasametha]) his glory." (John 1:14)
"That which we beheld" ([@etheasametha]). (1 John 1:1)
I could go on with the rest of the verses there in John but you can tell easily from the context that it is talking about Jesus here. You can try and deny Christ deity if you want but the bible makes it clear that he is deity/God. How many times does Jesus have to be called God by the bible for him to be consisdered Deity?
Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
Isa 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
John 10:30 "I and <I>My </I>Father are one."
Heb 1:8 But to the Son <I>He says: </I>"Your throne, O God, <I>is </I>forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness <I>is </I>the scepter of Your Kingdom.9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."
Mat 22:42 saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "<I>The Son </I>of David."43 He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying: 44 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool" '?45 "If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his Son?"
Here Paul refers to Jesus as God.
Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Rom 9:5 of whom <I>are </I>the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ <I>came, </I>who is over all, <I>the </I>eternally blessed God. Amen.
Here Peter refers to Jesus as God.
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2Peter 1:11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
I will not go back over all the previous passages I have presented on how Jesus was worshiped showing him to be deity. You will just have to read my previous posts. I do want to comment on the following verse.John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared <I>Him.</I>
"No mere man was ever close enough to the Divine Presence to see it and thus to come to know in fullness God; but Jesus, being "the only begotten of the Father," and so close to Him and figuratively to be said to be "in the bosom of the Father," has "declared," literally, interpreted Him, from His vast knowledge of God, and so enabled man to come to know the Father and to become acquainted with His purpose and plans."<5>
We know that Christ is the fullness of the Godhead. Paul penned, "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9). Paul writes again of Jesus Christ: "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" (Phil. 2:6-7). Christ had to give up the "form" of God and then take upon Himself the "form" of a man, that is, be made in the likeness of man. Yet, He remained the fullness of the Godhead "bodily."
Since mere, mortal man could not look upon the full glory of God's presence and live, man was enabled to look upon the "express image" (Heb. 1:3) of the Father. Hence, Christ was able to declare, "I and My Father are one" (John 10:30). Again, "If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him" (John 14:7). In this very limited sense, one that beheld Christ in the flesh had seen God. The texts remain true that none have seen God! Flesh-and-blood eyes cannot look upon His pure essence and live.
Cougan
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 He was in the beginning with God.
Whatever this word mentioned here is we can clearly see that it was in the BEGINNING. We can also see that it was with God. Which shows clearly that there were 2 here the WORD and GOD. Then we are told that the word was God. This clearly shows that the word itself was also God but distinct from another called God. Then it rempsized in verse 2. HE (WORD) was in the begining with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Here we find out a clue how this word is. We can note that All things were made through him. Who could that possible be.
HEb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by <I>His </I>Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
Eph 3:9 and to make all see what <I>is </I>the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Even a child could understand that the word is refereing to Jesus. These verses clearly show that Jesus was in the beginning with the father and the father created everything through Jesus/word. If your still not convinced try out these verses.
John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
1cort 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
Notice the following comparison using the 1chapter of John and 1John.
"In the beginning ([@en] [@arche]) was the Word." (John 1:1)
"That which was from the beginning" ([@ap'] [@arches]). (1 John 1:1)
"And the Word was with God ... ([@pros] [@ton] [@Theon]) (John 1:1)
The Life ... which was with the Father" ([@pros] [@ton] [@patera]) (1 John 1:2)
"In him was life" ([@zoe]).(John 1:4)
The Life ... which was with the Father" ([@pros] [@ton] [@patera]) (1 John 1:2)
"The light shineth" (John 1:5)
"The life was manifested."(1John 1:2)
"We beheld ([@etheasametha]) his glory." (John 1:14)
"That which we beheld" ([@etheasametha]). (1 John 1:1)
I could go on with the rest of the verses there in John but you can tell easily from the context that it is talking about Jesus here. You can try and deny Christ deity if you want but the bible makes it clear that he is deity/God. How many times does Jesus have to be called God by the bible for him to be consisdered Deity?
Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
Isa 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
John 10:30 "I and <I>My </I>Father are one."
Heb 1:8 But to the Son <I>He says: </I>"Your throne, O God, <I>is </I>forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness <I>is </I>the scepter of Your Kingdom.9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."
Mat 22:42 saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "<I>The Son </I>of David."43 He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying: 44 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool" '?45 "If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his Son?"
Here Paul refers to Jesus as God.
Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Rom 9:5 of whom <I>are </I>the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ <I>came, </I>who is over all, <I>the </I>eternally blessed God. Amen.
Here Peter refers to Jesus as God.
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2Peter 1:11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
I will not go back over all the previous passages I have presented on how Jesus was worshiped showing him to be deity. You will just have to read my previous posts. I do want to comment on the following verse.John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared <I>Him.</I>
"No mere man was ever close enough to the Divine Presence to see it and thus to come to know in fullness God; but Jesus, being "the only begotten of the Father," and so close to Him and figuratively to be said to be "in the bosom of the Father," has "declared," literally, interpreted Him, from His vast knowledge of God, and so enabled man to come to know the Father and to become acquainted with His purpose and plans."<5>
We know that Christ is the fullness of the Godhead. Paul penned, "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9). Paul writes again of Jesus Christ: "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" (Phil. 2:6-7). Christ had to give up the "form" of God and then take upon Himself the "form" of a man, that is, be made in the likeness of man. Yet, He remained the fullness of the Godhead "bodily."
Since mere, mortal man could not look upon the full glory of God's presence and live, man was enabled to look upon the "express image" (Heb. 1:3) of the Father. Hence, Christ was able to declare, "I and My Father are one" (John 10:30). Again, "If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him" (John 14:7). In this very limited sense, one that beheld Christ in the flesh had seen God. The texts remain true that none have seen God! Flesh-and-blood eyes cannot look upon His pure essence and live.
Cougan
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Originally posted by cougan
You yourself don't THINK that the WORD should be referred to as a "HE." In your post, you refer to the WORD as an "IT."
Now, why do you THINK that verse 2 refers to the WORD? Apostle John is referring to the MAN that the WORD turned into (verse 14). Jesus was in the beginning WITH God because Jesus was "FOREORDAINED" or CHOSEN in advance BEFORE the foundations of the world (1 Peter 1:20)
Thus, verse 14 should have followed verse 1 in order for us to understand more clearly what apotle John was trying to say WITHOUT making any oither verse FALSE!
This refers to the MAN that the WORD has turned into or BECAME.
If Jesus is the WORD that WAS God and BECAME flesh or MAN, then what is LEFT is Jesus, the MAN that the WORD has turned into.
As I said, God FOREORDAINED Jesus BEFORE the ceation of the world. That was the glory that God GAVE Jesus.
Jesus is NOT saying in this verse that he is God. He was simply saying that BEFORE Anraham was born, he is the ANOINTED one. In Mark 14:62, Jesus also said "I AM" when he was asked if he was the Christ, the Son of God (verse 61).
You are not saying that Christ was the ROCK that Moses struck with his rod and gave forth water, are you?
A million people may call Jesus God but that does NOT change the TRUTH that he is a MAN and the FATHER is the ONLY true God. The ONLY thing that counts is wht Jesus TAUGHT because anyone who ndoes NOT believe Jesus is CONDEMNED already (Jon 3:18).
This does NOT literally make Jesus God. God did NOT become a CHILD. The name IMMANUEL is a description of the end-result of Jeus' salvation. Those who are saved will dwell with God in the Holy City and God will be "with His people" (Rev. 21:3).
This is a prophecy that ws only partly-fulfilled. Jesus was NEVER called "mighty God and everlasting Father." In FACT, Jesus FORBADE his disciples from callimng anyone on earth Father for one is the Father who is in heaven. Jesus also identified the Father as the ONLY true God.
Jesus is NOT saying that he and the Father are ONE God. ADDING to the word of God is a violation of God's COMMAND.
Heb. 1:8 was LIFTED from a MISTRANSLATED version of Psalm 45:6. If Heb. 1:8 were accurately trnslated, how MANY Gods would there be? Read verse 7 again and again until you find out how many Gods do people who believe Heb. 1:8 have.
David did NOT address Jesus as God. David addressed God as Lord because God is inherently Lordto the Jews. Jesus is also LORD because God MADE Jesus LORD (Acts 2:36).[color]
You yourself don't THINK that the WORD should be referred to as a "HE." In your post, you refer to the WORD as an "IT."
Now, why do you THINK that verse 2 refers to the WORD? Apostle John is referring to the MAN that the WORD turned into (verse 14). Jesus was in the beginning WITH God because Jesus was "FOREORDAINED" or CHOSEN in advance BEFORE the foundations of the world (1 Peter 1:20)
Thus, verse 14 should have followed verse 1 in order for us to understand more clearly what apotle John was trying to say WITHOUT making any oither verse FALSE!
This refers to the MAN that the WORD has turned into or BECAME.
If Jesus is the WORD that WAS God and BECAME flesh or MAN, then what is LEFT is Jesus, the MAN that the WORD has turned into.
As I said, God FOREORDAINED Jesus BEFORE the ceation of the world. That was the glory that God GAVE Jesus.
Jesus is NOT saying in this verse that he is God. He was simply saying that BEFORE Anraham was born, he is the ANOINTED one. In Mark 14:62, Jesus also said "I AM" when he was asked if he was the Christ, the Son of God (verse 61).
You are not saying that Christ was the ROCK that Moses struck with his rod and gave forth water, are you?
A million people may call Jesus God but that does NOT change the TRUTH that he is a MAN and the FATHER is the ONLY true God. The ONLY thing that counts is wht Jesus TAUGHT because anyone who ndoes NOT believe Jesus is CONDEMNED already (Jon 3:18).
This does NOT literally make Jesus God. God did NOT become a CHILD. The name IMMANUEL is a description of the end-result of Jeus' salvation. Those who are saved will dwell with God in the Holy City and God will be "with His people" (Rev. 21:3).
This is a prophecy that ws only partly-fulfilled. Jesus was NEVER called "mighty God and everlasting Father." In FACT, Jesus FORBADE his disciples from callimng anyone on earth Father for one is the Father who is in heaven. Jesus also identified the Father as the ONLY true God.
Jesus is NOT saying that he and the Father are ONE God. ADDING to the word of God is a violation of God's COMMAND.
Heb. 1:8 was LIFTED from a MISTRANSLATED version of Psalm 45:6. If Heb. 1:8 were accurately trnslated, how MANY Gods would there be? Read verse 7 again and again until you find out how many Gods do people who believe Heb. 1:8 have.
David did NOT address Jesus as God. David addressed God as Lord because God is inherently Lordto the Jews. Jesus is also LORD because God MADE Jesus LORD (Acts 2:36).[color]
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WOW! You found an gramatical error I guess that disproves my whole view.
Your reordering doesnt change any thing. The word was the preincarnate Jesus. I do not think that Jesus in the flesh was with God in the begginging because he did not become flesh until the 1st century. He was with the father in his preicarnate state and he created the worlds and did many other things in the OT time upto the time he became flesh. Now foreordained in better translated forknown and does not carry the idea of being chosen but simply being known.
Surely you can do better than that. The verse if very clear showing that Jesus in his preicarnate state was with the Father in the beginning.
Have you ever really looked at this term I AM. It means to be which also carries the meaning of self existence. You can clearly see that Jesus the I AM in here is the I AM in Exodus 3:14. In fact I believe there is strong evidence that would show that the word/preicarnate Jesus was the Angel of the Lord in the OT. Don't let the word Angel mess you up because it simply means messenger. This of course is an entirly different topic and you can see what I have posted on it at http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16359&highlight=angel+of+the+lord.
I could'nt agree with you more. I am not interested in what a million of people say either, just what the word of God says. In fact look what Jesus says in that same book. John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am (he), ye shall die in your sins.
The word he is added by the translator. So Jesus says if you don not belive that he is the I AM you shall die in your sins.
I of course will have to disagree with that. Who was the Father of Jesus? It was God. How in the name of logic can you say that Jesus was only man. How could he be only man when his father was GOD? Jesus was both man and God. Jesus gave up his glory that he had in the GodHead came down to earth made a little lower than the angels to be a servent a great example of how we are to live our lifes. We know have a God that is not without sympathy because he was tempted as we are but was without sin. Don't you remember how Jesus could of called 10000 angels to come to his rescue if he wanted. The GodHead is a perfect unity they all agree with oneanother and they have different funtions but they are 1 God. Just like the Church is 1 body but has many members with differing funtions. You just dont seem to get the concept.
Um I don't belive that this is mistranslated. What an easy way out of a diffcult situation. You forgot about verse 9 or are you going to say its mistranslated to?
These scriptures were quoted from NKJV. I will have to rexamine these 2 verses from the greek. On the Titus verse about half put the words and our the other half did not. The Romans verse is only translated that way in the NKJV from what I can see from a quick glance so more than likely this is a poor wording on the Greek here. I will have to investigate these 2 verses. I usually look at the different translations just did'nt do this time. This by no means harms my view because I really and truely don't even need these 2 verse to prove my point. But, like I said I will examine them closer to see if I should use them in the future or not.
This is incorrect on this verse. Every version that I looked at rendered these verse the same useing the words of our except for the KJV. The NKJ, AMS, RSV, DBY, NRS, BBE, YLT are the other versions I looked at. So your argument does not apply here.
I ask you ed can you please explain to me your interpetation of Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.
How many are mentioned here?
Can you explain this verse for me? Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Here we it says that God purchased the church with his own blood. We know that Jesus is the one who purchased the church with his own blood so why would it not be logical that Jesus is being called God here?
I hope I have covered everthing I can just barely keep my eyes open. I don't usually make responses when I am so tired but I could'nt resist. I want to discuss next how in the world you come about with the idea that the HS is just the active force of God.
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