Can WOMEN preach in CHURCH?

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ArcticFox

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I walked out on a "woman pastor;" although to be quite honest, the most offensive thing was her preaching more than anything else.

Had she been speaking the truth of the Word, would I have walked out? I am not sure. I admire anyone who does, but understand why people would choose not to. We must make decisions like this frequently, where to take a stand, how to take a stand, and what that stand communicates.

Does it communicate the right message by "walking out," or would you simply be causing more harm than good? Certainly giving approval of a woman at the pulpit preaching over the whole of the congregation is unholy, but how best do we respond to these situations?

Fortunately, most people who are so opposed to such a thing do not attend churches that would ever have that happen (a woman at the pulpit). However, that's a good discussion for another thread (yeah, I say that now after I already gave my two cents).

I think this thread has clearly outlived its usefulness; discussion over whether or not a woman can Scripturally be a pastor has been rare. Most of the discussion is over how people feel about the subject, if a woman can be good at preaching, if women feel called to preach, etc.

Very little discussion on the theology of the subject. I'm disappointed. :sigh:
 
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DeltaOne7487

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Dear Windmill:

I personally believe that the passages that Paul wrote were in-line with the cultural context of the day. I mean, imagine what would happen if Paul came out with what would then be revolutionary teachings about equal rights for women in a predominately male-dominated culture? I believe that this would distract people from hearing and responding to the Gospel message.

It is also for this reason, I believe, Paul does not renounce slavery. Instead, in both cases he introduces Christian morality (such as those exhortations relating to how husbands and wives are to treat each other and the master and slave relationship) without going right out there with these counter-cultural radical ideals that can be a hindrance to people hearing the Gospel.

I see nothing wrong with women becoming pastors and preachers so long as, like men, they are truly called by God to follow in that path that He has laid down for them. A speaker, regardless of the sex, who is anointed by God to preach His message is powerful. My Church has husband and wife Officers (Pastors), both of whom are quite inspiring and offer great insights into the applications of the Scriptures when they preach.

A prime example of a woman preacher that almost everyone should know is Joyce Meyer. She has preached in thousands of churches and stadiums all around the world and taught both men and women. In fact, my family and I went to hear her speak when she went to Hillsong Church down at Sydney earlier on this year. She spoke with power and authority and with great insights into Scripture in front of thousands of people. You can only do that if God has anointed you to preach His Word to people, in my opinion.

In summary, it is my personal opinion that the ideal that only men can preach is outdated, and from my understanding of Scripture and the cultural context (however limited), I am lead to believe that it is not an accurate position to hold that only men are allowed to preach in Church or otherwise.

From,
DeltaOne7487.
 
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Chickapee

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I walked out on a "woman pastor;" although to be quite honest, the most offensive thing was her preaching more than anything else.

Had she been speaking the truth of the Word, would I have walked out? I am not sure. I admire anyone who does, but understand why people would choose not to. We must make decisions like this frequently, where to take a stand, how to take a stand, and what that stand communicates.

Hi artic fox
and agree with you in this totally , if it be male /female
either its the message thats declared to make known or state clearly,
I was in a simmilar situation
once a man , if it would have been a woman , i still would have left that building ,, it was the attitude and message of unjust judgment and rage and pride that made it so intolerable ....
I will share this , he come in and slamed his bible down on the podium hard and said ''Its a good thing im not god ''!!! shouting to the top of his lungs ,
'' There would be alot of people in trouble if I was god''! God help us all whom are poor in spirit and in truth ...

a poor soul was mowing his lawn sunday morning in shorts cause it was a hot summers day
and the preacher saw him on the way to church

he become the'' example and object '' of judgment for the sunday sermon ... shorts forbidden as well as not being there in the seat listening to some one preach to them .
anyways some thing STRONG and powerful and kind of strange not expecting this at all ...spoke within in my heart asking,
'' Do I believe him this preacher ??
and I said ''no '' your God you can save anyone , any where ,at any time LORD your GOD ALmighty ...


and i could not Limit what GOD CAN DO ...
Can we do that ? all things are possible with God even Jesus told us that , did i believe this much at least?


to me it was a testing of faith a particular process or method for trying or assessing of seeing where i was at
in faith and making me aware of what was coming to pass ..it sounds so silly , but to me it was profound ,
why was i there , if just for show ?
being one in the number yet not putting my confidence in this man who said'' If I was God ??''

abd so angry and judgmental ?
where is the mercy God speaks of in His Word ?
it was a turning point many seasons ago
i just wanted to say that the Lord works in mysterious ways with all of us and for us to put our trust in Him we will not be disappointed ,,
am so thankful for all the Lord Jesus is doing for whosoever He wills ,
and about ministering [serving Him ] Spirits of the Lords blessing and mighty Hand they have come in both men and women in my life and am greatful for every one the Lord has given ,, even a dog named moses was such a comfort to my soul in a great time of need , who went on and died and i still miss his loving ways and most precious and loyal companionship , never felt such a way before about a creature that was truthfully a Godsend at that most lonely and searching and hard time of my life , many many trials to overcome .. a thankful heart today full of love and admiration for the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ .. who has helped me and will confess His Holy name before all who would ask why my joy today is so great in Him .........

God bless and peace ,,,c
 
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Floatingaxe

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Dear Windmill:

I personally believe that the passages that Paul wrote were in-line with the cultural context of the day. I mean, imagine what would happen if Paul came out with what would then be revolutionary teachings about equal rights for women in a predominately male-dominated culture? I believe that this would distract people from hearing and responding to the Gospel message.

It is also for this reason, I believe, Paul does not renounce slavery. Instead, in both cases he introduces Christian morality (such as those exhortations relating to how husbands and wives are to treat each other and the master and slave relationship) without going right out there with these counter-cultural radical ideals that can be a hindrance to people hearing the Gospel.

I see nothing wrong with women becoming pastors and preachers so long as, like men, they are truly called by God to follow in that path that He has laid down for them. A speaker, regardless of the sex, who is anointed by God to preach His message is powerful. My Church has husband and wife Officers (Pastors), both of whom are quite inspiring and offer great insights into the applications of the Scriptures when they preach.

A prime example of a woman preacher that almost everyone should know is Joyce Meyer. She has preached in thousands of churches and stadiums all around the world and taught both men and women. In fact, my family and I went to hear her speak when she went to Hillsong Church down at Sydney earlier on this year. She spoke with power and authority and with great insights into Scripture in front of thousands of people. You can only do that if God has anointed you to preach His Word to people, in my opinion.

In summary, it is my personal opinion that the ideal that only men can preach is outdated, and from my understanding of Scripture and the cultural context (however limited), I am lead to believe that it is not an accurate position to hold that only men are allowed to preach in Church or otherwise.

From,
DeltaOne7487.


Excellent post! :thumbsup: Welcome to CF! :wave:
 
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UnitedInChrist

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Hi artic fox
and agree with you in this totally , if it be male /female
either its the message thats declared to make known or state clearly,
I was in a simmilar situation
once a man , if it would have been a woman , i still would have left that building ,, it was the attitude and message of unjust judgment and rage and pride that made it so intolerable ....
I will share this , he come in and slamed his bible down on the podium hard and said ''Its a good thing im not god ''!!! shouting to the top of his lungs ,
'' There would be alot of people in trouble if I was god''! God help us all whom are poor in spirit and in truth ...

a poor soul was mowing his lawn sunday morning in shorts cause it was a hot summers day
and the preacher saw him on the way to church

he become the'' example and object '' of judgment for the sunday sermon ... shorts forbidden as well as not being there in the seat listening to some one preach to them .
anyways some thing STRONG and powerful and kind of strange not expecting this at all ...spoke within in my heart asking,
'' Do I believe him this preacher ??
and I said ''no '' your God you can save anyone , any where ,at any time LORD your GOD ALmighty ...


and i could not Limit what GOD CAN DO ...
Can we do that ? all things are possible with God even Jesus told us that , did i believe this much at least?


to me it was a testing of faith a particular process or method for trying or assessing of seeing where i was at
in faith and making me aware of what was coming to pass ..it sounds so silly , but to me it was profound ,
why was i there , if just for show ?
being one in the number yet not putting my confidence in this man who said'' If I was God ??''

abd so angry and judgmental ?
where is the mercy God speaks of in His Word ?
it was a turning point many seasons ago
i just wanted to say that the Lord works in mysterious ways with all of us and for us to put our trust in Him we will not be disappointed ,,
am so thankful for all the Lord Jesus is doing for whosoever He wills ,
and about ministering [serving Him ] Spirits of the Lords blessing and mighty Hand they have come in both men and women in my life and am greatful for every one the Lord has given ,, even a dog named moses was such a comfort to my soul in a great time of need , who went on and died and i still miss his loving ways and most precious and loyal companionship , never felt such a way before about a creature that was truthfully a Godsend at that most lonely and searching and hard time of my life , many many trials to overcome .. a thankful heart today full of love and admiration for the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ .. who has helped me and will confess His Holy name before all who would ask why my joy today is so great in Him .........

God bless and peace ,,,c
that's a shame. I have sat through many a sermon that I didn't agree with, but I do chose to say only b/c I want to hear it in it's entirety. if I had an issue with anything, I would certainly say something in private after the mass just to see what their take would be on my opinion. Male/Female doesn't matter to me, but that's me. Why people would get down to that level of "faith" I'm not sure but that's why there are literalist, and why there are some that are not. For a preacher to condemn someone for wearing shorts..I don't quite get that at all unless I missed something here. Even if he were to wear shorts inside of the church...again, that's just falling into "the spirit of religion"...read that book if you haven't already. Goes to show all these people that do things in the name of religion, but yet, they are being the most unchristianlike in the process. Anyway...this thread isn't for me. Women preachers don't make or break my day, nor rattle my faith, nor provoke me in anyway different than any other women's job in my life..so time for me to move on. Some people here don't agree with them, and I don't get it. I just find it so insignificant given the real issues of our day. My opinon of course.
 
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Chickapee

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that's a shame. I have sat through many a sermon that I didn't agree with, but I do chose to say only b/c I want to hear it in it's entirety. if I had an issue with anything, I would certainly say something in private after the mass just to see what their take would be on my opinion. Male/Female doesn't matter to me, but that's me. Why people would get down to that level of "faith" I'm not sure but that's why there are literalist, and why there are some that are not. For a preacher to condemn someone for wearing shorts..I don't quite get that at all unless I missed something here. Even if he were to wear shorts inside of the church...again, that's just falling into "the spirit of religion"...read that book if you haven't already. Goes to show all these people that do things in the name of religion, but yet, they are being the most unchristianlike in the process. Anyway...this thread isn't for me. Women preachers don't make or break my day, nor rattle my faith, nor provoke me in anyway different than any other women's job in my life..so time for me to move on. Some people here don't agree with them, and I don't get it. I just find it so insignificant given the real issues of our day. My opinon of course.

Hi rick0824 ,
you right , its a judgment call
and what we consider by ''faith '' to be truth and what we dont accept or agree with...
we are to have our faith before God and this is where eveyone is in diffent places in the WORD OF GOD ,,,eating and drinking and discerning the Lords Body [church of believers]

Rom 14:22Hast thou faith? have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.
I just love a Spirit filled christian , not really noticing if they be male /female , or of any color
just loving them cause i see, percieve the face of Christ shining in them .. be blessed
GOD BLESS and peace .c
 
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WannaWitness

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I believe a woman can pastor as a team with her husband. Read about Aquila and Priscilla (a husband/wife minister team) in Acts 18.

But as far as a woman preaching alone... I just feel better sitting underneath a man.
 
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ArcticFox

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I believe a woman can pastor as a team with her husband. Read about Aquila and Priscilla (a husband/wife minister team) in Acts 18.

But as far as a woman preaching alone... I just feel better sitting underneath a man.

I understand. You probably either received this "feeling" from tradition, or from soaking in the Word of God regularly and getting a "feel" for truth. I hope it's the latter, but either way it's a good feeling.

However, a lot of people judge this issue merely by their feelings. I am not addressing you, WannaWitness, but others; we must address these "feelings" people have with solid Scripture, so as to get beyond this level of "my opinion is..."

We all have opinions. We all have feelings. Those opinions radically differ, and the feelings are even more erratic and crazy, and create all sorts of different practices and beliefs. What we need is something solid. I propose that if we continue this tired discussion, we do so always with an eye to the Word of God. We need to be expounding on verses, and expositing large sections of Scripture.

The link to N.T. Wright was an excellent step to "arguing well;" although I felt that Wright's treatment of the subject was extremely poor (whatever conclusion he reached), I respect people who discuss this using biblical hermeneutics; that is, we discuss this issue based on the truth of God's Word and what it says to us, not based on the fallacy of our own understanding and feelings.

A word of encouragement, and maybe even rebuke to some:

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.

I have seen a horribly unbalanced amount of "in my opinion" and "I feel" statements. "I feel God has called me," "In my opinion that men-only as preachers is just out-dated," "If God calls women, who am I to get all hung up on verses?"

The arguments used to support women preaching, in general, have centered around the experiences of a few women who posted here (or of whose experience we received second-hand from someone else). No offense meant, but such experiences are shared by numerous faiths (experiences of good leadership and feelings of empowerment by a higher being). They are not, however, a foundation for us as Christians. Feelings must be measured against the Word, and feelings must give way if the Word says otherwise.

Therefore, if it "feels natural" for me to divorce my wife and marry this new girl I met over the internet, is it OK? Of course not! The Word is clear that such a divorce merely to achieve a sense of "greater enjoyment" with a new woman is unacceptable. No matter how strong I feel called to do it, that feeling of a calling is nothing short of the nature of Satan and his dominion of darkness that exalts itself against the knowledge of God.

And honestly, I have known men who wanted so much to do such things that they justified in their mind while still regularly reading Scripture and praying and attending church; these are not always people who fall out of fellowship, but often stay inside because they are able to sear their consciences (if they are aware). Now, some may not be aware, and so they are not guilty of defiling conscience, but of ignorance of the Word of God; let us go and teach them for their sake and everyone else's, but most important, for the glory of God.

This is primarily and most importantly a discussion for the glory of God; what glorifies God most here? It is not about what glorifies woman, gives women a sense of fulfillment, or what makes men feel confident in their manliness; it's about God and his glory. When we make that the main goal, we are willing to see whatever God has written in his Word for what it is.
 
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Murdock

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Everything I've read in the scripture says no. There are people like Joyce Meyers, and such, that truly have a gift and an understanding beyond a lot of men I know.

The question I keep fighting inside is this:

Why would God give them gift such as that, and then contradict it by mandating them to be quiet?

Thats what I'm having a hard time with. Should they just stick to teaching other women? Then in turn, the women can go back and discuss that with their husbands. However, Joyce Meyers isn't a pastor (as in the head of a church body).

I hope you get an answer to this question...

As paul explains it, it is a punishment for Eve eating of the tree. Women can teach other women. But my question is if men ask women to teach in church, should we women not obey the men?:confused:
 
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Shalico2007

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No disrespect for women pastors because if they feel that's their calling then that's what they should do. But going by the Scriptures, Paul plainly says that a woman should not teach a man.

I do agree with WannaWitness, that if it's a husband and wife working together, like Priscilla and Aquila, then that's okay.
 
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ArcticFox

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Why would God give them gift such as that, and then contradict it by mandating them to be quiet?


Actually God is not contradicting the gift, nor is the gift a trick or something to resist. The gift is a gift, and that woman should use it. Whether she uses it to speak to groups of women at women's conferences, whether she uses it to teach classes to women at church, to teach children, to be a better witness to her friends everywhere she goes, or any other outlet, she should use it.

God does not gift you so that you can use it however you please; he gifts us so that we may use it to glorify him. And one thing that definitely does NOT glorify God is to disobey his Word in order to accomplish your own ideas of how to use his giftings.
 
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UnitedInChrist

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I understand. You probably either received this "feeling" from tradition, or from soaking in the Word of God regularly and getting a "feel" for truth. I hope it's the latter, but either way it's a good feeling.

However, a lot of people judge this issue merely by their feelings. I am not addressing you, WannaWitness, but others; we must address these "feelings" people have with solid Scripture, so as to get beyond this level of "my opinion is..."

We all have opinions. We all have feelings. Those opinions radically differ, and the feelings are even more erratic and crazy, and create all sorts of different practices and beliefs. What we need is something solid. I propose that if we continue this tired discussion, we do so always with an eye to the Word of God. We need to be expounding on verses, and expositing large sections of Scripture.

The link to N.T. Wright was an excellent step to "arguing well;" although I felt that Wright's treatment of the subject was extremely poor (whatever conclusion he reached), I respect people who discuss this using biblical hermeneutics; that is, we discuss this issue based on the truth of God's Word and what it says to us, not based on the fallacy of our own understanding and feelings.

A word of encouragement, and maybe even rebuke to some:

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.

I have seen a horribly unbalanced amount of "in my opinion" and "I feel" statements. "I feel God has called me," "In my opinion that men-only as preachers is just out-dated," "If God calls women, who am I to get all hung up on verses?"

The arguments used to support women preaching, in general, have centered around the experiences of a few women who posted here (or of whose experience we received second-hand from someone else). No offense meant, but such experiences are shared by numerous faiths (experiences of good leadership and feelings of empowerment by a higher being). They are not, however, a foundation for us as Christians. Feelings must be measured against the Word, and feelings must give way if the Word says otherwise.

Therefore, if it "feels natural" for me to divorce my wife and marry this new girl I met over the internet, is it OK? Of course not! The Word is clear that such a divorce merely to achieve a sense of "greater enjoyment" with a new woman is unacceptable. No matter how strong I feel called to do it, that feeling of a calling is nothing short of the nature of Satan and his dominion of darkness that exalts itself against the knowledge of God.

And honestly, I have known men who wanted so much to do such things that they justified in their mind while still regularly reading Scripture and praying and attending church; these are not always people who fall out of fellowship, but often stay inside because they are able to sear their consciences (if they are aware). Now, some may not be aware, and so they are not guilty of defiling conscience, but of ignorance of the Word of God; let us go and teach them for their sake and everyone else's, but most important, for the glory of God.

This is primarily and most importantly a discussion for the glory of God; what glorifies God most here? It is not about what glorifies woman, gives women a sense of fulfillment, or what makes men feel confident in their manliness; it's about God and his glory. When we make that the main goal, we are willing to see whatever God has written in his Word for what it is.
Speaking as a fundamentalist..you would have a point. Not everyone is though, so what you say here works for you...but not for all. And as always, there is that reference to "satan" for anything that is not in agreement with your thinking. Perhaps it is just that people don't get so obsesed as you do on the topic, and has nothing to do with them being "but ignorance of the Word of God"...for a moment...did you ever sit and ponder that perhaps others that post here read what you write and think of it as "ignorant".
 
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UnitedInChrist

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I walked out on a "woman pastor;" although to be quite honest, the most offensive thing was her preaching more than anything else.

Had she been speaking the truth of the Word, would I have walked out? I am not sure. I admire anyone who does, but understand why people would choose not to. We must make decisions like this frequently, where to take a stand, how to take a stand, and what that stand communicates.

Does it communicate the right message by "walking out," or would you simply be causing more harm than good? Certainly giving approval of a woman at the pulpit preaching over the whole of the congregation is unholy, but how best do we respond to these situations?

Fortunately, most people who are so opposed to such a thing do not attend churches that would ever have that happen (a woman at the pulpit). However, that's a good discussion for another thread (yeah, I say that now after I already gave my two cents).

I think this thread has clearly outlived its usefulness; discussion over whether or not a woman can Scripturally be a pastor has been rare. Most of the discussion is over how people feel about the subject, if a woman can be good at preaching, if women feel called to preach, etc.

Very little discussion on the theology of the subject. I'm disappointed. :sigh:
Probably as disappointed as the people on here that were told they were going against God's word being preachers. I never really quite got the obsessions people have. Something can be so beautiful, so right, and be so rewarding...but yet there is someone to tear it right down because it clashes with a literal read of a 2000+ year old book. That is by no means to disgrace the bible...but it is 2007. Sometimes I read some of these posts and believe that ther person writing believes to be in sandals walking the land of 2000+ years ago. No one knows what God would want for sure. But what I would like to think that is if someone is called to preach his word...they preach that word. It isn't a "feeling" nor should a person give "approval" of something they should not be judging. Of course it's a choice the individual needs to make, but i find so much of this thread so utterly offensive...I can't believe that it's lasted this long. Again, I'm thankful I'm a northener as this sort of thing seems to be once again, a bible belt issue. Everything seems to be so obsessive down there, no wonder why so many issues come out of there. Of course, this comment will now be slammed because it rubs people the wrong way it it rattles there world a bit...that is to be expected. At the same time, it doesn't mean I'll stop myself from saying it. This is not directed at one person, but just the many on here that are just way over the top with their religious extremes.
 
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UnitedInChrist

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Dear Windmill:

I personally believe that the passages that Paul wrote were in-line with the cultural context of the day. I mean, imagine what would happen if Paul came out with what would then be revolutionary teachings about equal rights for women in a predominately male-dominated culture? I believe that this would distract people from hearing and responding to the Gospel message.

It is also for this reason, I believe, Paul does not renounce slavery. Instead, in both cases he introduces Christian morality (such as those exhortations relating to how husbands and wives are to treat each other and the master and slave relationship) without going right out there with these counter-cultural radical ideals that can be a hindrance to people hearing the Gospel.

I see nothing wrong with women becoming pastors and preachers so long as, like men, they are truly called by God to follow in that path that He has laid down for them. A speaker, regardless of the sex, who is anointed by God to preach His message is powerful. My Church has husband and wife Officers (Pastors), both of whom are quite inspiring and offer great insights into the applications of the Scriptures when they preach.

A prime example of a woman preacher that almost everyone should know is Joyce Meyer. She has preached in thousands of churches and stadiums all around the world and taught both men and women. In fact, my family and I went to hear her speak when she went to Hillsong Church down at Sydney earlier on this year. She spoke with power and authority and with great insights into Scripture in front of thousands of people. You can only do that if God has anointed you to preach His Word to people, in my opinion.

In summary, it is my personal opinion that the ideal that only men can preach is outdated, and from my understanding of Scripture and the cultural context (however limited), I am lead to believe that it is not an accurate position to hold that only men are allowed to preach in Church or otherwise.

From,
DeltaOne7487.
Delta,
You have a point that I am more inclined to agree with. What you must keep in mind is that there are many a people here that are literalist and they take what the bible says at point blank. If it says it..it is. End of story. If it was good enough 2000 years ago..it's just as good now. No thought, reason, is added to the equation..it's basically the same thing when you ask someone something and you get "because i said so". It isn't a reason at all...it's just what's called "blind faith". These people are called Christians for their beliefs. Many would believe as you do, and are called Christians too....just focus on that. This thread tends to be mostly visited by fundamentalists, so perhaps it is their thread which is why the responses are what they are. Out side of that right wing fringe...you wouldn't see many of these responses. Peace
 
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ArcticFox

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Speaking as a fundamentalist..you would have a point. Not everyone is though, so what you say here works for you...but not for all. And as always, there is that reference to "satan" for anything that is not in agreement with your thinking. Perhaps it is just that people don't get so obsesed as you do on the topic, and has nothing to do with them being "but ignorance of the Word of God"...for a moment...did you ever sit and ponder that perhaps others that post here read what you write and think of it as "ignorant".

Hi Rick! :wave:

I think it'd be best to place me on ignore; you seem to have difficulty with my posts. I am not a fundamentalist, and have generally not received the response you are giving me. Although I occasionally receive it, everyone gets flamed once a while.

I'll read these last two messages you posted here, and then I'll place you on my ignore list. Reading your messages only encourages me to anger and raises my blood pressure. :sigh:
 
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