Are Trinitarians Christians?

Are Trinitarians Christians?

  • YES

  • NO


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OldShepherd

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Originally posted by franklin
 

OS, Interesting that you say this guy is a heretic because of his opinions about the trinity when the trinity is just that, someones heretical opinion and un-inspired writing that totally contradicts everything Jesus and the Apostles taught!  This is almost laughable my friend!  keep up the good work!   :(  

When I make a statement I usually document it. If I say something is false or contradicts something else I show how it does that. All you have done is make accusations.
So what would we do today OS, if there were no creeds to fall back on?
Please show me where I have quoted, cited, or referred to any creed. I have quoted scripture, early christians who were tortured and murdered because they would not bow to idols, and the Jewish Encyclopedia. If you are going to respond to me then read what I say and respond to that. Not a straw man you have concocted.
During the first three centuries, Christians did not believe that Jesus Christ was coequal, and coeternal with God, or that he was God the Son, they believed that Jesus Christ was subordinate to God, and that he had a beginning, that he was born.
I posted quotes from three early church leaders that proves you wrong.
Oh and BTW OS, if you want to see documentation that refutes your doctrine, just go to the scriptures!
I was hoping to have a mature adult discussion. All you have done is say "I'm right and you're wrong, go read your Bible". Well I can and do read the Bible in three languages, English, Greek, and Hebrew, and with a fair degree of understanding in one oriental language. My Bible has 31,172 verses, which verses disprove anything I have posted?

But never mind here is some more Biblical historical study.


John 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone (monoV), but I and the Father that sent me.

This is an interesting verse. Jesus said that He was not alone but He and the Father and in the next verse “the testimony of two men”

Strong’s 3441 (monoV monos mon'-os
probably from 3306;; adj
AV - only 24, alone 21, by (one's) self 2; 47
1) alone (without a companion), forsaken, destitute of help, alone, only, merely

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18
I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Here is an exegesis of this passage by A.T. Robertson, who taught post graduate Greek for 47 years.
________________________________

Quote:
Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament, John 8:16-18
{Yea and if I judge} (kai ean krin de ego). "And even if I pass judgment." Condition of third class again. {True} (althne). See #1:9 for (aleqinoV), genuine, soundly based (cf. (dikia) in #5:30), "satisfying our perfect conception" (Westcott), not merely true (alqeV) in the particular facts (verse #14). {For I am not alone} (oti monoV ouk eimi). Jesus now takes up the technical criticism in verse #13 after justifying his right to speak concerning himself. {But I and the Father that sent me} (all ego kai ho mempsaV me pater). See #16:32 for a like statement about the Father being with Christ.


{Yea and in your law} (kai en toi nomoi de toi umeteroi). Same use of |kai--de| as in verse #16. They claimed possession of the law (#7:49) and so Jesus takes this turn in answer to the charge of single witness in verse #8:13. He will use similar language (your law) in #10:34 in an _argumentum ad hominem_ as here in controversy with the Jews. In #15:24 to the apostles Jesus even says "in their law" in speaking of the hostile Jews plotting his death. He does not mean in either case to separate himself wholly from the Jews and the law, though in Matthew 5 he does show the superiority of his teaching to that of the law. For the Mosaic regulation about two witnesses see #De 17:6; 19:15. This combined witness of two is not true just because they agree, unless true in fact separately. But if they disagree, the testimony falls to the ground. In this case the Father confirms the witness of the Son as Jesus had already shown (#5:37).
________________________________


Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

Jesus has a “self” and Jesus says there is another who bears witness of Him.

32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true

33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

The Father has a self! The Father is the other who Jesus said bears witness of Him.

Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

If the teaching of the modern “Oneness”/”Jesus Only” movement is correct, Jesus and the Father cannot be “both”, Jesus and the Father cannot have distinct selves.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And of course none of the anti-Trinitarians have addressed this passage. The usual argument is, this passage was “inserted” in the Bible, during the 16th century.

177 AD A Plea for Christians by Athengoras the Athenian: Philosopher and Christian.
"Who, then, would not be ashamed to hear men speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their distinction in order."

the Father, what the communion of the Father with the Son, what is the Spirit, what is the unity of these three, the Spirit, the Son, the Father, and their distinction in unity;

For, as we acknowledge a God, and a Son his Logos, and a Holy Spirit, united in essence, the Father, the Son, the Spirit, because the Son is the Intelligence, Reason, Wisdom of the Father, and the Spirit an effluence, as light from fire;

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-46.htm#P2139_587041

Above, 1 John 5:7 alluded to, 177 AD. Below, 1 John 5:7 quoted directly, 200 AD and 250 AD.

Cyprian 250 AD Treatise I On The Unity of the church.
The Lord says, "I and the Father are one; " and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, "And these three are one." And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-111.htm#P6832_2190664

Tertullian, Against Praxeas; (ca. 200)

”Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are, one[8] essence, not one Person,[9] as it is said, "I and my Father are One,"[10]in respect of] unity of substance not singularity of number.”

Verses which speak of the Father’s “self” and Jesus’”self”.

Joh 7:28
Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.

Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Mt 6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.


Ps 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Ps 45:6, God addresses another as God and tells Him that your God has anointed you.
Quote:
“
Ps. Xlv. is throughout regarded as Messianic. To begin with; the Targum renders verse 2 (3 in the Hebrew): 'Thy beauty, O King Messiah, is greater than that of the sons of men.'

verse 3 (4 in the Hebrew) is applied in the Talmud (Shabb 63 a) to the Messiah, although other interpretations of that verse immediately follow.

The application of verse 6 (7 in the Hebrew), to the Messiah in a MS. copy of the Targum has already been referred to in another part of this book, while the words, 'Thy throne is for ever and ever' are brought into connection with the promise that the sceptre would not depart from Judah in Ber. R. 99, ed. Warsh. p. 178 b, line 9 from the bottom.

On verse 7 the Targum though not in the Venice edition (1568), has: 'Thou O King Messiah because Thou lovest righteousness,' &c. Comp. Levy, Targum. W��rb. vol. ii. p. 41 a.

The Midrash on the Psalm deals exclusively with the inscription (of which it has several and significant interpretations) with the opening words of the Psalm, and with the words (ver. 16), 'Instead of thy fathers shall be thy children,' but at the same time it clearly indicates that the Psalm applies to the latter, or Messianic, days.”
Albert Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah
_____________________________
 
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franklin

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cougan

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NO Franklin you did not answer my question or at least I cant see the answer there. You gave a response but it did not answer my question of wheather or not you think Jesus was created and if he was when? Would you please answer these 2 question for me so that I can understand because Im not that good a reading between the lines.
 
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franklin

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Originally posted by cougan
NO Franklin you did not answer my question or at least I cant see the answer there. You gave a response but it did not answer my question of wheather or not you think Jesus was created and if he was when? Would you please answer these 2 question for me so that I can understand because Im not that good a reading between the lines.

Well cougan, I think you need to read that post I gave you again because the answer your looking for is there. If your asking me if there is a difference between created and begotten I would have to say no. They both have basically the same meaning.  The man Christ Jesus was born in Bethlehem as plainly and clearly recorded in Scripture. The Scriptures reveal Jesus to us as a man who was divinely begotten of the seed of David by the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary and causing her to conceive. That is when His existence began. I even answered your question about God's spirit.  So that was 3 questions I answered. 

FR 
 
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cougan

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Thank you Franklin. I did'nt ask about the HS question again because I did understand you answer on it. Then after that post someone pointed out all those scriptures showing that the Holy Spirit could speak, teach, guide, be grieved, etc and yet was seperate and distinct from the father. Notice the following.

Holy Spirit
He speaks, hears, resists, wills, guides
Acts 5:3-4 HS is called God
John 16:13 Hears and guides into all truths
1 Tim 4:1; Acts 10:19-20 HS speaks
John 14:26 HS teaches
Acts 16: 6-7 HS forbids
1Cort 12:11 HS wills
Eph 4:30 HS can be grieved
Acts 15:28 It seemed good to the HS.
Acts 13:2 HS says separate to ME Barnabas and Saul
Rom 15:19 Power behind the signs
Mat 12:31 Do not blasphemy the HS

You will notice in Acts 5:3-4 that the HS spirit is refered to as God.

John 16:13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

First I want you to notice the use of the word HE. This within itself show that the HS is a being. Notice that he will guide and speak. It says that he will not speak on his own authority which implies that he could speak on his own as one having his own will.

I'm not going to go over all the verses above. I'm just going to point out a few of them. Like 1Cor 12:11 clearly shows that the HS has a will. And Eph 4:30 shows that he can be grieved, once again showing that he is a being and not just some active force.

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

This verse shows clearly that the HS is a person. The HS is talking and says separate to ME. Notice how he refers to himself as ME. How do you get around such strong evidence as this?
 
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cougan

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Franklin I have even more of a difficult time of how you can say that Jesus was not in exsistence until he was concieved in Mary. I have never heard of anyone hold this view.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Remember how I defined God as deity or divine nature. Well here you have the word being in the beginning and the word was with God and the word was God. This shows at least 2 distinct beings but they are both deity or God. Verse 2 again points out 2 different beings that were their in the beggining. The begging here is not talking about he begging of the NT time as you try to proclaim because the next verse within the context tells us that the begining spoke of here was the begining of the creation. Notice in verse 3 it says all things were made by him refering to the word. How in the world could everything be made by Jesus if he did not exist until the conception of Mary?

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

How in the world can the bible proclaim that Jesus was before all things and you say that he did not exsist until he was conceived?

Heb 1: 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom
he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made
the worlds;

You see the Father was the planner and Jesus was the executer of his plans.

One more verse that total destorys that Jesus did not exist before he was conceived by Mary is: John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

This is the same I am that appered to Mosses in the burning bush. I AM means to be or self exisiting. Besides all this Jesus here claims that he was before Abraham. Again how on earth can you come to the conclusin that Jesus did not exist until he was conceived by Mary.
 
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OldShepherd

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Franklin,

You state that my interpretation of scriptures is wrong and contradicts Jesus and the apostles, and imply that you are more knowledgeable, than I am, translating and interpreting the Bible. Here are two passages of scripture, in the original languages. The first passage, from the O.T., is quoted in the second passage, in the N.T.. Please give us your translation and interpretation of these passages.


כ&#1499לב שב על- קאו כסיל ש ונה באולתו

kuwn epistreyaV epi to idion exerama kai uV lousamenh eiV kulisma borborou
 
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Se7en

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Hello...this is my first post around here and I found this thread to be VERY interesting.  There are good arguments going on for both sides and right now I honestly can't say what I believe as far as the Trinity is concerned.  I do have a question though... :scratch:

How does one explain the pluralness with which God describes himself in Genesis?  (I don't recall the exact verse, but I believe it's part of the creation story and God refers to himself as "we.")

 
 
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cthoma11

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Originally posted by Se7en
Hello...this is my first post around here and I found this thread to be VERY interesting.  There are good arguments going on for both sides and right now I honestly can't say what I believe as far as the Trinity is concerned.  I do have a question though... :scratch:

How does one explain the pluralness with which God describes himself in Genesis?  (I don't recall the exact verse, but I believe it's part of the creation story and God refers to himself as "we.")

 

Welcome!

Gen 1:26

It depends on who you talk to.

Those who deny the trinity explain it away using the speach of kings where the royal "We" really means the individual speaking.

Those who believe the trinity (I really want to say: those who believe the bible here :)) see this as further affirmation of what is said in John 1. Where it states that Christ created ALL things so that Gen 1:26 is the Godhead speaking.

I'm sure someone who has studied the hebrew, such as Old Sheppard, can give you a lot more details as to why one is preferred over the other.

Regards
 
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franklin

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Originally posted by Se7en
Hello...this is my first post around here and I found this thread to be VERY interesting.  There are good arguments going on for both sides and right now I honestly can't say what I believe as far as the Trinity is concerned.  I do have a question though... :scratch: How does one explain the pluralness with which God describes himself in Genesis?  (I don't recall the exact verse, but I believe it's part of the creation story and God refers to himself as "we.") 

Se7, it's nice to have you aboard in the forum here.  I used to believe in the trinity and I to believe in the bible and what the scripture says and I usually subordinate mans interpretations to second place. The passage you are referring to is Gen 1:26 and I have always been led to believe that John 1:1 is in reference to each other but I don't believe that it is.  In the New Testament, it is very clear that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God and no where does it teach that He is "God the Son." This was an invention of men some time after the third century. Jesus is the image of God, just like Adam was before he fell into transgression:

Genesis 1:26, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

Compare Jesus with the image of God: Colossians 1:15, "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:" Notice it says that Jesus is the "image" of God and the first-born of all creation. Obviously, Jesus is not God, nor the Creator, but He has pre-eminence of all things. In the Book of Hebrews it is even clearer:

Hebrews 1:1-3, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"

Nowhere does the writer of Hebrews mention that Jesus Himself is God. He says that God spoke in his Son, unlike the way He had spoken to the Old Testament fathers or prophets.

Interestingly, Luke, when writing the genealogy of Mary, says that Adam was called "the son of God" when God created him in the beginning (Luke 3:38). Obviously Adam was just a man, taken from the ground, and he did not have a natural father. Therefore, Jesus was a man when God begat Him through the Virgin Mary, by the power of the Holy Spirit and called Him the Son of God. There is a distinction between the Father and the Son. They are not "two or three persons in one." Trinitarians believe that the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but at the same time Jesus is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit. This is full of contradictions. It is not a mystery: it is an error.
 
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cougan

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I just wanted to post this from my JW thread since it goes along with this topic.

The astute reader will observe that Christ is not termed the first-created but rather the [@prototokos], "first-born," of all creation. He is not herein compared to the "other" creatures. He Himself was not created. The Jehovah's Witnesses contends erroneously that Christ is but a created being -- "a god." The same Greek phrase which is here translated "all creation" is translated in Rom. 8:22 "the whole creation." But notice the reason that Christ is described as "the first-born of all creation." The reason is that He created all things (Col. 1:16). Did Christ create Himself?

The word translated "first-born" has reference to Christ's supremacy, His rank. Notice the idea of rank in Ps. 89:27 -- "I also will make him my firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth." Christ is infinite, superlatively superior to the whole creation, for He is our Creator and our High Priest, the God-man, the author of our salvation (Heb. 12:1-2). To the Jew, the words lord, heir, first-born had the same meaning (See Gen. 27:37; 2 Chr. 21:3; Gal. 4:1). With the Hebrews, the first-born had a special place of rule and a double portion in the inheritance, assuming the father's title in some countries. Though not in every respect paralleling the firstborn in a Hebrew family (since He was not created but rather Creator),this term does refer to the Lordship of Christ. He is preeminent, supreme Ruler, "the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29). "He is Lord of all" (Acts 10:36). He sits "in the heavenly places, far above all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also that which is to come" (Eph. 1:20-21). Before Him all shall bow, if not in this world, then in the world to come (Phil. 2:9-11).

Again I point you to Is 43:10 where God says that there was not a God formed before him or after him. If Jesus was a created God as you state I dont see how you can get around this verse. Then going back to John 1:1 you see that Jesus was in the begining. ( the word "was" here is an impefect tense form which asserts the "continuous timeless existence" of Jesus) Just look at Isa 44:6 and you will see both the father and the word both agreeing and saying I am the first and I am the last Besides me there is no God. Both Jesus and the Father are deity. In rev 3:14 the word beginning sometimes carries the meaning of "orginiator" conveying the idea of that by which something begins to be, rather than implying chronological commencement. I believe that Rev 3:14 refers to Christ role as creator and not to an alledged orgin. Now watch this. Rev 21:6 says that God is the beginning (same greek word in Rev 3:14) and the end. Does this mean that Jehovah was created? I think you can see clearly see the problem with your view. One last point. If the word beginning denotes the Lords commencement in time would the word end suggest an ultimate termaination for God? The Bible makes it abundantly clear that there never was a time when the Second Person in the Godhead did not exist (cf. Mic. 5:2; Isa. 9:6; Jn. 1:1; 8:58).
 
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cougan

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Well I did some searching in history and found where your view spawned from Franklin. It wasnt until about AD 318 Arius an elder of Alexandria, had problems accepting the teaching about the nature of Christ. So he began to teach that Jesus was different in essence from the father. I cant find anything before this time period teaching your view. Then this view was debated over for about 400 years after that but the majorty of Christians hold the triune nature of God view.

I would like to add my comments to the following verse.

John 14:28 "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and
coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice
because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is
greater than I.

Jesus is speaking about his willing submission to the Father. Note the writting of Paul.

Philp 2: 5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery
to be equal with God,
 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a
bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled
Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the
death of the cross.

Jesus was equal to the father in nature, but voluntarily took upon himself the form of a servant. Again the word God or theos, denotes deity.(Thayer) There is but 1 divine nature. Hence, there is but 1 God. There are, however, 3 persons who possess this divine nature, the father, the son, and the HS which make up the GodHead.

What about these verses Franklin.

Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son,
and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated,
"God with us."

John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself,
with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Mic 5:2 " But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little
among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come
forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth
are from of old, From everlasting."

Now lets look at Gen 1:26-27. You try and say that because Jesus was in the image of God that that some how proves that he was a created being. I ask what other image could Jesus be in if not human? Of course he was the image of God in his human form we already learned from Gen that we to being human was made in the image of God. I don't see any strength to your arguement at all. However it is important for us to look at the plurality used there showing that there are more than one in the GodHead. Even in the very first verse of The bible the plural Heb word is used for God elohim. This occurs over 2000 times in reference to the plurity or triune nature of God.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" --

Gen 11:7 "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here <I>am </I>I! Send me."

These types of verses could be multiplied but this should be sufficeint enough to show that there is a plurality of persons in the GodHead.

The bible also teaches that Christ is God in Isa 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father,<B></B> Prince of Peace.

Obiviously these verses are talking about Jesus. This verse demands a recognition of the fact that the child born of Mary was/is deity. He is as much God as God the father.

Now consider Zech 13:7 " Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, Against the Man who is My Companion," Says the LORD of hosts. "Strike the Shepherd, And the sheep will be scattered; Then I will turn My hand against the little ones. This should be compared to Mat 26:31 Then Jesus said to them, "All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: 'I will strike the Shepherd, And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.' Also in Mark 14:27 Then Jesus said to them, "All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: 'I will strike the Shepherd, And the sheep will be scattered.' The Shepherd is God Psalm 23 and Jesus is the the Shepherd: therefore Jesus is God.

Finally, concerning Christ being God (deity) Notice Acts 20:28 "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. The vese calls the flock (members of the church) the church of God. It also points out that God shed his blood for the church. This means that the one who shed his blood for the church is God. Who shed his blood for the church? Jesus did Mat 26:28. Therfore Jesus is God.

I still have not seen you refute the Holy Spirit not being a person. There has been tons of verses and info presented showing that he indeed is a person seperate and distinct from the Father and son but possessing the characteristics of deity. Look forward to your response.

Cougan

&nbsp;
 
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OldShepherd

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Originally posted by franklin
This was an invention of men some time after the third century. Jesus is the image of God, just like Adam was before he fell into transgression:

This has already been proven to be false. Why are you ignoring it?

Nowhere does the writer of Hebrews mention that Jesus Himself is God. He says that God spoke in his Son, unlike the way He had spoken to the Old Testament fathers or prophets.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. {righteousness: Gr. rightness, or, straightness}
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

In both these two verses, quoted from Psalm 45, God addresses the Son as God!

There is a distinction between the Father and the Son. They are not "two or three persons in one." Trinitarians believe that the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but at the same time Jesus is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit. This is full of contradictions. It is not a mystery: it is an error.
There is a distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Contradictions? No! Whenever anyone starts trying to tell God what He can and cannot, do or be, they need to read their Bible Isaiah for example.

Isaiah 5:8 For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by websitejack
Ed,

It is because the Father commanded that Jesus be worshipped that reveals his deity!!

None other than God is to be worshipped, as established by scripture:

Exodus 20:3 You shall have no other gods before me

Exodus 34:14 -- for you shall not worship any other god , for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God -- (NASB)

And yet Jesus is CONSTANTLY worshipped AND accepted it.[/b

&nbsp;On the contrary, the FACT that God COMMANDED to worship Jesus PROVES that Jesus is NOT God.

God does NOT contradict His own command. Otherwise, He would be a liar which He is NOT! The Bible teaches that God is NOT a MAN that he should LIE and He always makes good what He has spoken (Numbers 23:19).

God&nbsp; does NOT allow worship of any OTHER God besides Him. Jesus is NOT another God to be worshiped. Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40).


If Jesus is a created being, then not only would this be idolaltry, but idolaltry condoned...commanded by...God.

Genesis 1:27 teaches that God CREATED man. Jesus said he is a MAN (John 8:40). Therefore, Jesus is a&nbsp;CREATED being.

Rev. 4:8 and 11 tells us that the Lord God Almighty who sat on the throne (Rev. 4:2) is the CREATOR of all things.
&nbsp;

Angels are NOT to be worshipped -

And I, John, saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. (9) Then saith he unto me, See thou do it no; for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren, the prophets, and of them who keep the words of this book. Worship God. - Revelation 22:8-9

Men are NOT to be worshipped -
Peter refused - Acts 10:25-26
Paul refused - Acts 14:11-15

Only God can receive worship.

And whoever God COMMANDS us to worship.

&nbsp;
Jesus is worshipped. Jesus is God.

websitejack

God COMMANDS us to worship Jesus. Therefore, Jesus is NOT God. Otherwise, God would be CONTRADICTING Himself.

Ed
 
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wblastyn

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it's b/c the masoretic text has no trinitarian verses, and ALL the NT verses are later additions put in by the Church to support the trinitarian doctrine arrived at at the Council of Nicaea AD 325. They are all fabrications. ALL of them!They Are all ad hoc interpolations. ALL of them!
Actually many people believed in the trinity, or atleast a "binity" in the early church.

Justin Martyr believed Jesus was the logos, the word made flesh, who was God.

Tertullian believed Jesus was God. He said God the father is like the sun, and Jesus is a ray coming from the sun, which makes Jesus God, yet seperate. Although this idea is flawed since it makes Jesus less than God the Father, which is a whole other debate.

Also, the reason Jesus was crucified was because he claimed to be the Son of God, thus equal to God, which was considered blasphemy by the Jews. If it wasn't true why didn't He deny it?

&nbsp;

Besides, when I die I would rather have Jesus say "you thought too highly of me" than "you thought I was less than I AM."
 
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franklin

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&nbsp; Originally posted by OldShepherd
This has already been proven to be false. Why are you ignoring it?

OS, the trinity has been proven to be false by the scriptures themselves!&nbsp; Was Jesus tempted?&nbsp; Can God be tempted?&nbsp; I think you know the basic common sence answers to these quesions.&nbsp; Therfore the trinity is false!&nbsp; The scripture is the ultimate proof!


There is a distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Contradictions? No! Whenever anyone starts trying to tell God what He can and cannot, do or be, they need to read their Bible Isaiah for example.


OS, this one is almost laughable!&nbsp; :D&nbsp;&nbsp; It's you guys who telling God that He is not one God but 3 !&nbsp; When the scripture is emphatic that God is ONE! Your telling God that His spirit is not really spirit but is a person!&nbsp; Your telling God that HIs Son is a God! When the scripture is extremely clear He is a man of flesh and blood who was tempted like all other men!&nbsp; Was Jesus putting on some kind of a big act when He suffered through temptation?&nbsp; Think about what you are saying before you speak! I have 2 posts in this thread for you and Cougan to read so as to save me from writers cramp!&nbsp;

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=339780#post339780

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=334315#post334315

&nbsp;
Isaiah 5:8 For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.
[/B]


OS, very good passage and I think you and Cougan should meditate on it for a few days.......&nbsp; have a blessed day.....

FR
 
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cthoma11

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Originally posted by franklin
OS, the trinity has been proven to be false by the scriptures themselves!&nbsp;

I'm not OS, but, repeatedly stating this without evidence that stands up does not make it true.

Every one of your points has been refuted in this discussion. Every time you have been presented with clear biblical evidence of Christ being God, you have ignored it. When you have presented third party support, it has been refuted. When you have asked others for early extra biblical support it has been given along with documentation. Then you ignore it. When you have been asked to show why verses should be translated one way versus another, you have ignored it. A few posts ago, I summarized the verses that you had ignored and you have ignored that post.

Surely you can do better if your position is so strong.

Originally posted by franklin
Was Jesus tempted?&nbsp; Can God be tempted?&nbsp; I think you know the basic common sence answers to these quesions.&nbsp; Therfore the trinity is false!&nbsp; The scripture is the ultimate proof!
FR

This arguement is a strawman. Show us where Christ was internally&nbsp;tempted to give into sin. If you read Mark 1:12-13 &nbsp;"At once the Spirit sent him out into the desert,&nbsp;and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan." Luke 4:13 says "When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.". This&nbsp;says that Satan tempted Christ. It does not say that Christ was tempted to give in. Being tempted by forces external to oneself is not sin. Its your actions that cause sin.

Look at the parable of the Good Samaritin. Was the pharasee's sin seeing that they could walk awy from the man on the road who had been beaten&nbsp;or was it actually doing it and leaving him there? (To help you out, the answer was that they walked away, or in other words it was their response to the situation.)

When Satan came to God and got God's permission to test Job, was the fact that Job's children and possesions were taken away sin on Job's part? Was the fact that Job's wife told him to curse God and die sin on Jobs part. No! Having trials presented you a person has nothing to do with the nature of that person. If you give into the trials and sin then there is an issue but up to that time, the trial is not a reflection of the person being tested.

Originally posted by franklin
OS, this one is almost laughable!&nbsp; <IMG alt="" src="http://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif" border=0>&nbsp;&nbsp; It's you guys who telling God that He is not one God but 3 !&nbsp; When the scripture is emphatic that God is ONE!

The trinitarian position is that God is one. This is yet another strawman arguement.

Originally posted by franklin
Your telling God that His spirit is not really spirit but is a person!&nbsp;

Yet another Strawman. In corporate law, incorporated businesses are persons. It would&nbsp;appear that you&nbsp;therefore think that businesses therefore have arms and legs. What this means is that it is a distinct entity. Similarly stating that the Holy Spirit is a person is not taking the childish position that therefore the Holy Spirit is not a spirit.


Originally posted by franklin
Your telling God that HIs Son is a God!

Actually, there have been hundreds of verses presented in this thread that are from scripture,&nbsp;each&nbsp;of which shows that Christ is indeed God. Thus it is God telling us that Christ is God. The fact that you ignore the verses does not make your assertion true, any more than repeating it over and over.

Originally posted by franklin
When the scripture is extremely clear He is a man of flesh and blood who was tempted like all other men!&nbsp; Was Jesus putting on some kind of a big act when He suffered through temptation?&nbsp;[/B]

As stated above, this is a strawman argument.&nbsp;Looked through the gospels where he was in the desert and it says Christ also fasted during this period&nbsp;and afterwards angels attended to him.&nbsp;&nbsp;It doesn't say he suffered due to temptation and in fact in Matthew, he hungered after fasting then was tempted. If you read that account, Jesus quickly put Satan in his place without much difficulty.
 
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edpobre

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Originally posted by cougan
NO Franklin you did not answer my question or at least I cant see the answer there. You gave a response but it did not answer my question of wheather or not you think Jesus was created and if he was when? Would you please answer these 2 question for me so that I can understand because Im not that good a reading between the lines.

Of course Jesus is a CREATED being. Apostle John wrote that Jesus&nbsp;CAME in the flesh (1 John 4:2).

If you CANNOT undertand what this means, Jesus explains: "But now you seek to kill ME, a MAN who has told you rhe TRUTH that I heard from God..." (John 8:40).

Here, Jesus is saying that he is a MAN.

The Bible teaches that God CREATED man (Gen. 1:27). Jesus said he is a MAN.&nbsp; It does NOT take a rocket scientist to come to the UNDERSTANDING that Jesus is a CREATED being.

Ed
 
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