Least Common Denominator of being Anabaptist.

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ZiSunka

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I doubt if you will get a consensus on that Wayne.

Anabaptism is a very wide spectrum of practices. Some Anabaptist churches are very liberal and don't even practice the peace witness. Some are even Calvinistic.

Others are very conservative and even legalistic.

Some preach that salvation is open to all people, by grace through faith in Christ. Others preach that there is no salvation outside their own church and that faith is only one part of salvation, that salvation must be "completed" through rigid adherence to rules.

Some Anabaptists have all the latest technology, some don't allow even modern butter churns.

Some value education, some prohibit education beyond basic 6th grade literacy.

Some are proactive members of their communities, some close themselves off from their surroundings to "keep themselves pure."

Some feel that wearing certain clothing is essential to salvation, others feel that clothing is external and not an indication of a person's soul.

I doubt if there is even one single doctrine that every Anabaptist can agree to.

And in this forum, anyone can use the Anabaptist icon without having to ever have any contact with a single anabaptist in their entire life. Several people who use the icon read a book or website about Anabaptists and claimed the icon as their own without really knowing what it's all about. All that's needed is a desire to acquire the icon and it's handed out like candy around here.

As you are undoubtedly aware, we had this discussion a month or so ago in an attempt to determine who can use the icon to prevent non-anabaptists and pseudo-anabaptists from thwarting the forum and chasing away the people who are at the liberal end of the spectrum. All of Anabaptism should be accepted here, not just the conservatives and the ones who idolize the Amish.

In the past, this forum chased away the wider Anabaptists to make room for the bullies who adhere to conservative practices, even though those people didn't live the anabaptist life themselves. Someone who once drove by a Hutterite community and bought a book about them at a gas station should not be allowed to chase away the liberal anabaptists and Quakers who rightfully belong here. A man who dresses his daughter in a demin sack is not more anabaptist than a man with gender identity issues who has been a life-long Mennonite. But that man with the gender-identity issues was chased away by the man who thinks he's anabaptist because he makes his daughter wear a denim sack to exert control over her.

Instead of focusing on who to exclude, maybe it would be good to examine ways we can be more inclusive of the wider spectrum of anabaptist practice around here.
 
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WayneinMaine

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I would agree that in the 21st century there are many groups that have descended from Anabaptist origins, but some of these have only a historical or ethnic connection to Anabaptism. I find the minimum commonality among most Anabaptists (liberal to conservative) to at least be non-resistance (or pacifism). There are Calvinistic and ecumenical minded members of historically linked Anabaptist churches, but I don't think that necessarily makes them Anabaptists. Can a Presbyterian disagree with everything Calvin wrote and still be a Calvinist?
__________________________________

I think Anabaptism at a minimum is a belief in and commitment to discipleship, church community and selflessness.

I see the original Anabaptists as a Restorationist movement who applied a literalistic hermeneutic to the New Testament scriptures, which they held as the fullest revelation of God, with the words of Jesus at the pinnacle of their scripture hierarchy.

Out of that three distinctives developed.

Nachfolge Christi: Following after Jesus, the essence of Christianity is discipleship, Jesus taught plainly what he wants his people to do and commanded his followers to teach all men to do the same.

Gemeinde (koinonia): The church is a gathering of God's people who function as one body, exhibiting in their separated society the character of the Kingdom of God. The church community is in fact a manifestation of God's kingdom on earth which Christ established at his coming.

Gelassenheit: Selflessness, personal submission to God's will, peaceful resignation and a hopeful expectation of salvation; the renewed mind and patient character of person born of the Spirit whose values and concerns span not a mere lifetime, but eternity.
 
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ZiSunka

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Why the interest in excluding people who should be welcomed in this forum?

Isn't it empty enough?

I guess by buttoning down an tight definition of who is and isn't Anabaptist, the forum would be left to only the most conservative groups, or to the people, whether they are Anabaptist or not, that fancy themsevles to be the rightful owners of the title "Anabaptist."

It would be great if, instead of figuring out who to exclude, we would look at ways to be more inclusive of the entire Anabaptist experience and practice.

It's funny, because the original Anabaptists were considered very liberal and very inclusive. Their doors were open to everyone, sinner and saint alike. Sure there were groups that wanted to filter out the people they didn't like, but by and large, the Anabaptists made room at the foot of the cross for every believer.

It's only in the 19th and 20 centuries that exclusion started to define the Anabaptists. Even among the Amish, the way they conducted business and their devotion to each other defined them as Anabaptists. Now they are so like the world inside they have to define themselves by their clothing, their mode of transportation and their language. They don't go into the world to make disciples, they share the good news only among themselves, and the good news they share comes with conditions they have attached to salvation. All others who don't follow those conditions are excluded and discounted as hopeless sinners. Not what God had in mind for his church, Biblically speaking.

So I guess I would say the lowest common denominator would be that Anabaptists are all people who are saved by grace through faith in Christ, who exhibit compassion and love for each other and to all people, and who conduct themselves in a manner reflective of Christ.

Any other conditions or provings is to add something to the good news that was never intended by Christ.

I would say that true Anabaptists don't focus on defining themselves because they are defined by the teachings of Christ.

Christ didn't filter out the drunks, the prostitutes, the fallen people, the people from foreign religions who came to him in faith. Sure, he didn't just let them sin with impunity or continue to worship their idols, but he didn't toss them away as refuse, he welcomed their faith and rewarded it in ways unknown to the self-righteous.

I would say that if you want to know the Anabaptists, you need to go out and find the people who live in love of the Lord, no matter what they wear or who they associate with.

I would also say the people who profess faith in Christ but live like Pharisees are belying their true master.
 
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WayneinMaine

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I doubt if you will get a consensus on that Wayne.

I suppose you are right, but it would be good to find out what people think.

Anabaptism is a very wide spectrum of practices. Some Anabaptist churches are very liberal and don't even practice the peace witness. Some are even Calvinistic.

Others are very conservative and even legalistic.

So you see Anabaptists as any church with a lineage to the 16th century Anabaptistsd, regardless of what they believe? If someone is not a member of one of these churches can he be Anabaptist? Can a person believe in the Dortrecht Confession or the Schleitheim confession and not be Anabaptist?

I doubt if there is even one single doctrine that every Anabaptist can agree to.
Let's discuss it then.

And in this forum, anyone can use the Anabaptist icon without having to ever have any contact with a single anabaptist in their entire life. Several people who use the icon read a book or website about Anabaptists and claimed the icon as their own without really knowing what it's all about. All that's needed is a desire to acquire the icon and it's handed out like candy around here.

As you are undoubtedly aware, we had this discussion a month or so ago in an attempt to determine who can use the icon to prevent non-anabaptists and pseudo-anabaptists from thwarting the forum and chasing away the people who are at the liberal end of the spectrum. All of Anabaptism should be accepted here, not just the conservatives and the ones who idolize the Amish.
Yes, I read that thread. You proposed eliminating the forum. Why not instead determine what is distinctively Anabaptist (the links Mr Jim provided when starting the group give some indication of what defines Anabaptist) . I know you do;'t like excliusiveness, but CF is divided into a number of exclusive forums, all with distinguishing characteristics. Anabaptist, for the sake of CF forums, certainly have some distinctions.

this forum chased away the wider Anabaptists to make room for the bullies who adhere to conservative practices, even though those people didn't live the anabaptist life themselves. Someone who once drove by a Hutterite community and bought a book about them at a gas station should not be allowed to chase away the liberal anabaptists and Quakers who rightfully belong here. A man who dresses his daughter in a demin sack is not more anabaptist than a man with gender identity issues who has been a life-long Mennonite. But that man with the gender-identity issues was chased away by the man who thinks he's anabaptist because he makes his daughter wear a denim sack to exert control over her.

Hmmm... it actually seems that the conservative minded folks, including the man who started this forum, were the ones driven away, looking at the posts since January.

And by the way, Quakers are not Anabpatists. Our commonality is as "Historic Peace Churches" -both groups refuse miliary service. Historically and doctrinally they are quite different movements and I imagine it is very confusing for people outside Anabaptist circles to see the two associated with each other.

Instead of focusing on who to exclude, maybe it would be good to examine ways we can be more inclusive of the wider spectrum of anabaptist practice around here.
That of course has to include a respect for Conservative Anabpatists and a manner of representing them fairly, or letting them represent themselves without facing ridicule and personal attacks.

BTW, you are interested in credentials.

My wife and I joined a Lancaster Conference Mennonite church in Massachusetts in 1989 (we were old "Radical Evangelicals of the Ron Sider, John Howard Yoder "Politics of Jesus" crowd previously), which we left later when we became novice members of the Bruderhof communities until they split with the Bruderhof. We settled in Lancaster county where we fellowshipped with the River Brethren (our neighbors were OO Amish, OO River Brethren, MC Mennonites, Church of the Brethren and Horning Mennonites -quite a mix of Anabaptist groups!). We returned to New England and attend a conservative Church of the Brethren congregation (our choices are limited here in Maine). I won't detail our friendships and contacts and cooperative efforts with other groups -they are numerous.

So you see, we did not merely drive through a Hutterite community or read a few books. In fact I turned aside an effort to recruit me (by John Oyer and J. C. Wenger) to study church history at Associated Mennonite Biblical Seminary in Elkhart. I told them that I wanted to "do" Anabaptism rather than merely study it, and went off to the Bruderhof instead.
 
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ZiSunka

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Whether the conservative, German-speaking Anabaptists like it or not, there needs to be room in this forum for the totality of Anabaptists.

I don't find anything in the Bible that says German-speaking people are more holy or that German is the holy language, although the Pharisaical churches certainly seem to believe that.

It's interesting though, that German was the language of the people, and Latin was the language of the exclusionary church those people had come out of. Some Anabaptist groups now define who is and who isn't a true Christian by whether or not the speak the "holy" language of 17th century low German.

My question would be, when did Anabaptists close the doors and start to be exclusionary?
 
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ZiSunka

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So you see Anabaptists as any church with a lineage to the 16th century Anabaptistsd, regardless of what they believe? If someone is not a member of one of these churches can he be Anabaptist? Can a person believe in the Dortrecht Confession or the Schleitheim confession and not be Anabaptist?

I see anabaptist as any person who is devoted to living out the teachings of Christ.

Historic confessions don't make an anabaptist an anabaptist. Living the anabaptist life makes an anabaptist an anabaptist.

Yes, I read that thread. You proposed eliminating the forum.

No, I proposed that if the forum could not be open to the totality of true Anabaptist experience without the domination of the pharisaicals and the people pretending to be anabaptists so they could dominate and exclude, then the forum ought to be done away with. Do you understand the difference?

Hmmm... it actually seems that the conservative minded folks, including the man who started this forum, were the ones driven away, looking at the posts since January.

The man who started this forum was a baptist who wished he was catholic or orthodox. He was not anabaptist and would not have passed your test because he was a member of the military, actively carried a gun in his ordinary life for the purpose of shooting anyone who would threaten him, and supported all military actions by the government. At one time he attended a mennonite church, but that was many years ago and he openly refused to attend any other anabaptist churches (although he lives in an area lousy with all kinds of anabaptist churches) because he disagreed with anabaptist doctrine and practice. If that would be an anabaptist by your definition, then it would seem the definition is wide open and should include people who attend historically anabaptist churches that you say aren't really anabaptist. It would seem that if we can't exclude someone who reviles everything anabaptism stands for, then there is no one who can be excluded and your definition, and any discussion of a definition, becomes moot.

And by the way, Quakers are not Anabpatists. Our commonality is as "Historic Peace Churches" -both groups refuse miliary service. Historically and doctrinally they are quite different movements and I imagine it is very confusing for people outside Anabaptist circles to see the two associated with each other.

Duh. Really? :scratch:


That of course has to include a respect for Conservative Anabpatists and a manner of representing them fairly, or letting them represent themselves without facing ridicule and personal attacks.

Yes, and those conservative anabaptists need to respect that their experience with conservative groups may have been different and less harmful that some other people's experiences. They are welcome to express themselves, but not to hurt people who had toxic experiences with the Amish or other groups. Although it's nice to think that no anabaptist could do anything harmful or criminal, in reality, it ain't so. Beating the victim to give support and honor to the criminal will not be premitted.

So you see, we did not merely drive through a Hutterite community or read a few books.

It wasn't you I was refering to. It was BrotherDan who identified himself as an anabaptist after driving by a Hutterite community and buying a book at a nearby gas station. From that, he determined to be a "neo-anabaptist" (his term) who wanted start a new denomination that would return anabaptism to what he determined to be its original state--flatly exclusive to only those people who held him up as the founder and demigod of the faith and who would follow his extensive list of rules. Profession of faith in Christ was not one of his rules. All the rules were totally external and directed at gaining honor from his "disciples." The only reason he didn't follow through with his plan was that he couldn't find people who would worship him the way he expected his followers to do. He was actively travelling around the country looking for a congregation of people who would meet him, instantly make him their pastor, and abandon everything they knew about the Bible and take up his personal interpretations and doctrines.

If you took what I said personally, it's totally your decision because it was not directed at you.

In fact I turned aside an effort to recruit me (by John Oyer and J. C. Wenger) to study church history at Associated Mennonite Biblical Seminary in Elkhart. I told them that I wanted to "do" Anabaptism rather than merely study it, and went off to the Bruderhof instead.

How totally big of you. I'll send you a medal later.
 
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ZiSunka

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I suppose you are right, but it would be good to find out what people think.

Wayne, unless you are open to getting answers you don't agree with without an argument, I doubt you'll get any responses. People in this forum are sick of being argued with and dominated by people who think they know what everyone else should believe.

Most of the people who were beginning to identify with this forum since the big meltdown are lurking, watching to see if the domination is resumed or if the forum will stay open to them, too.
 
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WayneinMaine

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Whether the conservative, German-speaking Anabaptists like it or not, there needs to be room in this forum for the totality of Anabaptists.

I don't find anything in the Bible that says German-speaking people are more holy or that German is the holy language, although the Pharisaical churches certainly seem to believe that.

It's interesting though, that German was the language of the people, and Latin was the language of the exclusionary church those people had come out of. Some Anabaptist groups now define who is and who isn't a true Christian by whether or not the speak the "holy" language of 17th century low German.

My question would be, when did Anabaptists close the doors and start to be exclusionary?
You say there has to be room for the totality of Anabaptists, yet you do not seem especially welcoming of conservative/traditional Anabaptists. If people are interested in Pentecostalism or Eastern Orthodox or Fundamentalism or Baptist or Catholic or Reformed or liberal they can participate in the CF forums for those groups. Someone set up a group to include (exclusively) Anabpatists. There are people whose beliefs do not fit in with the other groups but who share a commonality identified as "Anabaptist". This forum should not exclude Anabpatists in order to be inclusive, don't you agree?

Now, does "Anabaptist" by your definition include Amish, Hutterite, Conservative Mennonites and Conservative Dunkards/Brethren?
 
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ZiSunka

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You say there has to be room for the totality of Anabaptists, yet you do not seem especially welcoming of conservative/traditional Anabaptists. If people are interested in Pentecostalism or Eastern Orthodox or Fundamentalism or Baptist or Catholic or Reformed or liberal they can participate in the CF forums for those groups. Someone set up a group to include (exclusively) Anabpatists. There are people whose beliefs do not fit in with the other groups but who share a commonality identified as "Anabaptist". This forum should not exclude Anabpatists in order to be inclusive, don't you agree?

It shouldn't include anabaptists who demand exclusivity of their own point of view as the only valid Anabaptist point of view.

I agree that the man who attends a baptist church and identifies with catholic/orthodox faith, who doesn't accept anabaptist doctrines and refuses to participate in any of the many anabaptist churches in his location should not be considered an anabaptist for purposes of this forum.

A man who is inventing his own church for the purpose of self-worship but who holds anabaptist churches up for ridicule because they disagree with his personal interpretation of the Bible should not be considered an anabaptist for the purposes of this forum.

A man who once attended an anabaptist fringe-group church consisting entirely of one man and his family, who now doesn't attend any anabaptist church even though there are many in his area because he disagrees with anabaptist doctrine and practice should not be considered an anabaptist for the purposes of this forum.

Any person who discounts and ridicules the larger practice of anabaptism in order to maintain "purity" of only those people who agree with his interpretation of what an anabaptist is, should not be allowed to post harmful, hurtful things in order to maintain an illusion that one anabaptist group is holier than all others or that people who commit and/or condone sexual crimes against women and children within an anabaptist group because they have the reputation of being spiritual and holy people should not be considered to be anabaptist for the purposes of this forum.

I feel like we are going in circles, Wayne.

Now, does "Anabaptist" by your definition include Amish, Hutterite, Conservative Mennonites and Conservative Dunkards/Brethren?

It could. But it would not include members of Amish meetings where open sexual sin and battery against women is allowed. Nor would it include men who consider women and children to be property of men who can then assault and abuse them as they please without fear of censure and punishment from the church community.

It would not include people who, confronted with the reality that this is a widespread occurance in Amish community, victimize the victims by saying that the Amish can do no wrong because they are living out the purist form of Christian faith.

Just because a person attended an anabaptist meeting at one time and holds to the historic confessions of faith doesn't make that person a Christian or an Anabaptist.
 
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MrJim

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The man who started this forum was a baptist who wished he was catholic or orthodox. He was not anabaptist and would not have passed your test because he was a member of the military, actively carried a gun in his ordinary life for the purpose of shooting anyone who would threaten him, and supported all military actions by the government. At one time he attended a mennonite church, but that was many years ago and he openly refused to attend any other anabaptist churches (although he lives in an area lousy with all kinds of anabaptist churches) because he disagreed with anabaptist doctrine and practice.

:D :wave:

Thanks everyone for giving me credit-actually while I did solicit some mods about this, it just appeared one day.

Yeah, still got a soft spot for Catholicism & Orthodoxy:blush:

To clarify-I've not carried concealed in public for a couple of years now. I do keep my license current. And I've said a few times that I deal with the hypocrisy of keeping a loaded gun for defense of my family but would refuse to serve military service again. We've even talked about this over at MD.

Nope, never ever said I supported all military actions-what I have said is that the gov't is given right by God to use the sword.

Yeah, guilty on the anabaptist church not attending thing. I was a member for about 3 years I guess in the Franklin Conference. Disagreed with all the strife I found in the ones I looked and the one I was a member-it was a lot like the "conversation" going on in this thread.

The anabaptist thing is a slippery critter. But I changed my username and icon and I guess the baptist thing is a better fit. Meeting with the pastor Sunday.

Y'all have fun now, hear? Remember, you can't choose your relatives--brother and sister ;)
 
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WayneinMaine

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I asked this question in a number of different forums, and have received responses from, Mennonites, Beachy Amish, even a Hutterite man as well as people outside of but interested in Anabaptism. The following are the clear "winners", being mentioned most often:
  1. Non-conformity to (separation from) the world
  2. Non-resistance
  3. Separation of Church and State (non-participation in government)
  4. New Testament primacy / literal understanding of NT teachings
  5. Believer's (mature individual) baptism
How these are understood or worked out in the details varies among those who responded, but these seem to be the consensus doctrines that distinguish Anabpatism.

Some other interesting ones mentioned were:

  • Understanding of church as community/family
  • Corporate discernment and interpretation of scripture
  • Submissive spirit
  • Simple living
  • Hope, rather than assurance of salvation
 
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Joykins

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Well, I just stop by because I grew up in a church that was historically Anabaptist although now I guess it's more like regular evangelical, and because I like some of the posters here. If I still went there, I would consider myself Anabaptist by virtue of not being anything else nor having another CF home forum (as it is, I wonder as I wander :) )

One of the historical weak points of Anabaptist movements is that there seems to be a dearth of constructive ways of responding to differences that don't involve splits. I think one historic split was over buttons vs. hook-and-eyes on men's garb (ironic moment--my maiden name actually MEANS hook-and-eye in a dialect of the holy language of German ^_^ )

It would be lovely if this little forum could be large enough to hold people who disagree.
 
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Notrash

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I asked this question in a number of different forums, and have received responses from, Mennonites, Beachy Amish, even a Hutterite man as well as people outside of but interested in Anabaptism. The following are the clear "winners", being mentioned most often:
  1. Non-conformity to (separation from) the world
  2. Non-resistance
  3. Separation of Church and State (non-participation in government)
  4. New Testament primacy / literal understanding of NT teachings
  5. Believer's (mature individual) baptism
How these are understood or worked out in the details varies among those who responded, but these seem to be the consensus doctrines that distinguish Anabpatism.

Some other interesting ones mentioned were:
  • Understanding of church as community/family
  • Corporate discernment and interpretation of scripture
  • Submissive spirit
  • Simple living
  • Hope, rather than assurance of salvation

Pretty good analysis I think. I work among them as a driver/hauler/trucker. Originally the name implied baptized again with believers baptism (after infant baptism from the catholic church) But now they would be more of a sect of the Baptist's theology with works of conservativism thrown in.

The idea of their interpretation of understanding the 'church' as family/community is rather puzzling. They will I think recognize other plain groups as fellow churchmembers, but do not recognize others saved by grace as easily. At least the group that I work among. It's difficult for them to reach out to help individuals in need unless it is organized, approved and done through their church as a "Work" of helps.

The other one that concerns me is the hope rather than assurance of Salvation and I think/feel this is a result of their feeling of Salvation by keeping not only the words of Christ as guidance and instruction but also turn the words of the apostles into a new letter of the law. In a sense some of them (and other denominational churches) have turned christianity into a judaic type of works religion.


Overall, a good summary.

TG
 
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WayneinMaine

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The idea of their interpretation of understanding the 'church' as family/community is rather puzzling. They will I think recognize other plain groups as fellow churchmembers, but do not recognize others saved by grace as easily. At least the group that I work among. It's difficult for them to reach out to help individuals in need unless it is organized, approved and done through their church as a "Work" of helps.
Church as family/community expresses the depth of the meaning of being a church, not the breadth. A member of an Anabaptist church is not likely to experience want, and there is always help at hand. There is no such thing as an Amish nursing home -the church bends over backwards to care for its own. In the extreme are the Hutterites who practice full community of goods as a tangible expression of the kingdom of God among us.
The other one that concerns me is the hope rather than assurance of Salvation and I think/feel this is a result of their feeling of Salvation by keeping not only the words of Christ as guidance and instruction but also turn the words of the apostles into a new letter of the law. In a sense some of them (and other denominational churches) have turned christianity into a judaic type of works religion.
This is a counter to the modern Evangelical Protestant doctrine of "assurance of salvation". Old Order groups see in this doctrine the sort of cheap grace Bonhoffer addressed. They plainly believe that one can stop following Jesus and can therefore lose one's salvation.
 
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WayneinMaine

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One of the historical weak points of Anabaptist movements is that there seems to be a dearth of constructive ways of responding to differences that don't involve splits. I think one historic split was over buttons vs. hook-and-eyes on men's garb (ironic moment--my maiden name actually MEANS hook-and-eye in a dialect of the holy language of German ^_^ )
There was never such a split over hooks and eyes.
It would be lovely if this little forum could be large enough to hold people who disagree.
I don't think it is a matter of disagreement that has created tension in this forum. I suspect there's plenty of room for civility in disagreement within the parameters of historic Anabaptism. The real difficulty is in the understanding of what Anabaptism is and is not. A definition of Anabaptism that excludes Old Order and Conservative Mennonites, Amish, Hutterites and Brethren can't be very accurate. I don't think it's fair to these groups (about whom people come to the forum to find information) to represent Anabaptism as something it never has been, as some would like it to be. I don't think its valuable to CF or to have an Anabaptist forum that is just an inclusive place for anyone who does not fit into another forum.

Maybe the moderators will consider refining the description of the group.

There is an inclusive forum on CF: http://www.christianforums.com/f401-whosoever-will-may-come-liberal.html
 
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WayneinMaine

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But by your definition above you're excluding the Brethren church I grew up in! :confused:
First off, I haven't given my definition, I posted the tabulated results of a query I made of a number of Anabaptist church members. Secondly, in what area would a Brethren church not accept these common Anabaptist distinctives? I attend a Brethren church and our congregations would certainly agree to the 5 points on which I have found consensus among a diversity of Anabaptist church members (liberal and conservative, BTW).
 
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tulc

loves "SO'S YER MOM!! posts!
May 18, 2002
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Hmmm... it actually seems that the conservative minded folks, including the man who started this forum, were the ones driven away, looking at the posts since January.

Actually this forum was started when the Baptists threw us out of the forum we shared with them. To my knowlege? We never were consulted, just woke up one day in our little ghetto. :(
tulc(that's when most of us got the hint) :cool:
 
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