Is homosexual “love” immoral?

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chnchris

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Actually, please do not misrepresent what I said. My comment was, "Yet, my point was, since you can't control what your partner might do, you can't be absolutely safe even marrying a virgin." The fact that I mentioned the word "partner", that should imply that it is after they are married and are presumably no longer a virgin. It was even further clarified by my statement, "Two virgins might be safe, assuming neither partner ever cheats." Yes, a virgin is someone who has never had sex, and if they are virgins prior to getting married that implies that after marriage they have had sex -- thus my statement that two virgins may be safe if it is assumed that neither of them ever cheats.

:doh:
 
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crazyfingers

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He said,
[Originally Posted by Red530
All it says in the Bible is that homosexual sex out of marriage is sinful, at least that is what it says in my CATHOLIC BIBLE].

i asked for the Scripture he's referencing above;
try to stay with us here Krete.

Even if you can show that your scripture condemns homosexuality, you still need to show that scripture is true.
 
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Krete

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He said,
[Originally Posted by Red530
All it says in the Bible is that homosexual sex out of marriage is sinful, at least that is what it says in my CATHOLIC BIBLE].

i asked for the Scripture he's referencing above;
try to stay with us here Krete.
Well, that was not readily apparent, as the emphasis in the above post was not present in the original Scripture request, which made it easy to have been misunderstood.
 
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Scripture please.
I'm just guessing that Red meant fornication, which is not restricted only to homosexuals.

Anyway on fornication....
"Fornication is voluntary sexual intercourse between a man and woman who are not married to each other. Adultery is one type of fornication.
In every form, fornication was sternly condemned by the Mosaic law among God's people, the Israelites (Lev. 21:9; 19:29; Deut. 22:20-11, 23-29; 23:18; Ex. 22:16)."
http://www.layhands.com/IsPremaritalSexASin.htm
 
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crazyfingers

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Please remember this is suppose to be a "Chist"ian Forum....Hince the title Christian Forums uniting all "Christ"ians as one Body.........Since I AM a Christian I "assume" I am posting to people who AT LEAST believe in the Christian GOD [Theist] AND the man "Christ".

You will note that you are posting in the section of the forum where all can post. Since you only have 5 posts here it might be wise to familiarize yourself with the forum before assuming.

My Question to the "A"theist is "WHY ARE "YOU" HERE waisting your time posting to me?

Please observe that this is the "Ethics and Morality" sub-fora. Christianity does not have a monopoly on the subject of ethics and morality. It's also true that christians do not always agree on questions of ethics and morality and that non-Christians also have valuable contributions to the discussions.

However, if you are asking why, generally, I post here, the answer is to defend my rights and the rights of others from those who would presume to impose their religions onto others.

No, I cannot "show" TRUTH [i.e GOD EXIST] but my dear Atheist, Neither can you show me HE doesn't exist.....NOW CAN YOU?:doh:

Well that's an old one. Are you familiar with the term weak atheist. I do not believe in a god because evidence to suggest that one does exist is lacking. I do not claim that no god of any kind exists. I simply don't believe in one until such time that evidence presents itself that one does exist.


That's why they call it FAITH.

Faith = belief despite the lack of evidence.

My post therefore are NOT opinion but declarations of a reasonable, logical, and systematic FAITH.

They are the beliefs that you hold despite the lack of evidence to support them. They are your opinions.


For ALL men have faith in "something" and/or "someone"whether they admit it or not.........Mine [And supposedly all on this site] is in GOD giving me hope in this life AND beyond = GREAT PRACTICAL PSYCHOLOGICAL VALUE

They are your religious opinions. But you can't honestly call them the TRUTH as you have without the ability to support them with evidence.

What practical value is YOUR atheism?:D

Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a deity.

However if you were to ask me what my basic worldview is, I would tell you that it most closely agrees with the philosophical and ethical position of secular humanism. If you don't know what that is and what the benefits are then I suggest that you google it.
 
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quatona

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Christian Forums > Open to All Members Section > Discussion & Debate > Ethics & Morality Is homosexual “love” immoral?

Can you see logically that it ALL FORUMS begin as "their root" with the word "Christian"? It's not rocket science. It is a "SUB" forum to discuss Ethics and Morality "WITHIN" ALL the frameworks that proceed it in the tree: 1st. you need to be "Christian" [or at least think you are] ---> then onto being a CHRISTIAN "[CF] member" --->then onto being a CHRISTIAN [CF] MEMBER who wishes to "discuss and debate"--->then onto being a Christian [CF] MEMBER who wants to DISCUSS and DEBATE morality and ethics--->then onto a CHRISTIAN [CF] MEMBER who wishes to DISCUSS and DEBATE the MORALITY and ETHICS of the question posted : Is homosexual "love" immoral. ..........

Do you see how that chain of qualifications for posting here should work? :D
It´s not intended to work that way. There are two sorts of fora on CF: Christian Only an Open To All Members. Since in the Christians Only fora only Christians are allowed to post, and in the Open To All Members everybody is allowed and invited to post, your point is moot. If anything, you could criticize the owners for a (by your way of looking at it) misleading tree.

Plus, "Christian Forums" does not necessarily imply that it´s only for Christians. It is made by Christians in the Christian Spirit, and it is for everybody. That´s the intention of the owners. Get over it.

Now a side note: My best childhood friend was atheist so I am NOT judging your "right" as a human citizen to BE an atheist...just your agenda for being a "MEMBER" of a WEBSITE forum that CLEARLY requires you be either a REAL Christian or a self so-called Chris(?)ian Biblean.....but in BOTH cases they at least have the common thread of believing in GOD [being THEIST].
Why, do you think, icons for atheists, agnostics and all sorts of religions are available on a website if it is intended to be only for Christians? Doesn´t make sense, eh?

I would suggest you conduct a web search for a Forum that BEGINS as an ETHICS and MORALITY forum and is open to ALL Theist AND Atheist AND Agnostics. On that Forum you can fulfill your "agenda" to defend your "right" to not have a Christian "opinion" imposed upon you and other atheist.
And I would suggest you abstain from making the rules on a website that isn´t yours.


As All can see I asked the million dollar question:

of WHAT "PRACTICAL" value does being an atheist have over being a theist or even agnostic?

It prevents me from cognitive dissonance.

And State your "constructive" purpose
toward OTHERS for being in CF...that goes beyond "contrariness and contention" and labeling every declaration of faith "opinion"
I am working from the assumption that people on a discussion board are here for discussion, and I expect people in an "open to all members" forum to be interested in my opinion just as I am in theirs. Conversation, communication, mutual understanding.

If you don´t want to be exposed to non-Christian opinions, stay in the Christians Only section. That´s why there is a Christians Only section. It´s as simple as that.
 
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Mrreal4two

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It´s not intended to work that way. There are two sorts of fora on CF: Christian Only an Open To All Members. Since in the Christians Only fora only Christians are allowed to post, and in the Open To All Members everybody is allowed and invited to post, your point is moot. If anything, you could criticize the owners for a (by your way of looking at it) misleading tree.

No what I am criticizing the owner/creators for is placing in the MAIN banner of the website the words: "Christian Forum "S" implying more than one Christian Forum for the purpose of : "Uniting all "HELLO" "CHRIST"IANS {NOT PEOPLE, HUMANS] into ONE BODY.

This is the Promotional Banner on the HOME page. It's then is FULL of Jesus and Religious links

Therefore, I question "WHY" the owners created "atheist" icons or even any SUB forum accommodating them.

Plus, "Christian Forums" does not necessarily imply that it´s only for Christians.

It is made by Christians in the Christian Spirit, and it is for everybody. That´s the intention of the owners. Get over it.
Now see if you can follow OK? The very word "Christ"ian means "of the man JESUS CHRIST" CF FORUM"S* should NOT bare the name of a forum as you put it if it does not as you put it "imply" that it's "only" for "Christ"IANS.

Moreover, Created in the "Christ"ian spirit implies : the "Spirit" that was in the man CHRIST....which Spirit Atheist don't even believe EXIST.

Now if you are a declared "seeking" atheist or "questioning" atheist then that would make sense.

Humanism accommodates ALL faiths including and especially atheism to bring "freedom" as they see it from religious thought.

THAT WAS NEVER IN THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST.....HE "WAS" RELIGIOUS.

Conclusion: Any "spirit" of the man CHRIST [Christian Spirit] is by NATURE........RELIGIOUS AND THEIST

Why, do you think, icons for atheists, agnostics and all sorts of religions are available on a website if it is intended to be only for Christians? Doesn´t make sense, eh?
/QUOTE]

No it doesn't...the very point I am making.

However, it makes PERFECT sense if:

1) The site creators and monitors are REALLY Humanistic (as many who think they are Christian truly are) or "gulp" even Pagan !

OR

2) Christians/Chris(?)ians who are trying to "segregate" or herd or exile those annoying anti-Christian people who come into Christian Forums with none-Christian agendas into a sub forum to keep them away from Christians/Chris(?)ians so they won't have to constantly defend what they believe---genius huh? also deceptive

And I would suggest you abstain from making the rules on a website that isn´t yours.
Mrreal4two, please remember that your faith is just your opinion. To claim it to be the TRUTH is beyond your ability to show.
You declared my life-long faith "opinion" and that I MUST remember that. then you turn right around and state:

However, if you are asking why, generally, I post here, the answer is to defend my rights and the rights of others from those who would presume to impose their religions onto others.
Was not your initial dig that initiated this dialog an "opinion" about what "I" believe "imposed" upon "ME"?..........YE atheist hypocrites!:D

It prevents me from cognitive dissonance.
Thank you for the kindness of answering my question....I accept that explaination. However: My faith does not create "cognitive dissonance" for me so if it would do so for you, then atheist may be the best way for you to live and believe.

I am working from the assumption that people on a discussion board are here for discussion, and I expect people in an "open to all members" forum to be interested in my opinion just as I am in theirs.
If this were so, you would not have posted:

Mrreal4two, please remember that your faith is just your opinion. To claim it to be the TRUTH is beyond your ability to show.
Conversation, communication, mutual understanding.
Ah! now here is the my REAL . Since "membership" in this particular CF forum web site is "open to all" without questioning whether they are believers or not, The owners intentions must be one of the 2 that I spoke of above.

If you don´t want to be exposed to non-Christian opinions, stay in the Christians Only section. That´s why there is a Christians Only section. It´s as simple as that.
Since you initiated our dialog with...

Mrreal4two, please remember that your faith is just your opinion. To claim it to be the TRUTH is beyond your ability to show.
Now in your arrogance you forget it was YOU that addressed ME first with that personal dig ....seems to me it's YOU as an atheist who don't want to be exposed to "my" opinions.....in light of "your" opinions that is LOL:D

Moreover REAL "Chist"ianity is a following of the "teachings" of a historical figure namely Yeshuah [Jesus] Christ of Nazareth Israel.

Since CHRIST [LORD of the CHRISTIANS] historically taught:

John 18:37

Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the [HELLO]" TRUTH". Every one that is of the [HELLO]"TRUTH" heareth my voice[The VERY definition of [HELLO]"CHRIST"IAN].

CHRIST of the word CHRISTIAN talked about TRUTH constantly.....
Why shouldn't HIS followers? HE is the one that declared it TRUTH in the first place

Pseudo-Christians do not promote Christ's teachings but "Humanistic an Humanitarian" views that are common to both Christ AND many other Sages down through the years and Atheist.


It´s not intended to work that way.
How do you know this....Are you one of the creators of the site?

I would not be surprised as many of these so-called Christian [Chris(?)ian] Forums are not "Christ"ian AT ALL otherwise they would promote Christ teachings and discussions about it and NONE OTHER.

They take some humanitarian verses from the ministry of Christ to mean that Christ promoted a "humanist" approach to others. They have a "socially and politically correct" gospel and not that of "the historical figure--the man Christ".

Bottom line:
1) I think you have the "right" to speak out as an atheistic person, the dialog is always healthy and needed.

2) Maybe this sub forum should not be a part of the collection of "Christ"ian Forums, but a part of a stand-alone independent Ethics and Morality Open Forum. But I realize that will not happen nor was ever intended if one of the two previous conditions exist here at CF"S"

3) It is NOT my intention to "show" my statements to atheist to be TRUTH. It is a personal experience NONE - TRANSFERABLE like imperical knowledge (science) is by definition.

4) My beef is NOT particularly with you [if you are not the owner/controller] but the creators/owners of the web-site creating place for those who are of the spirit of anti-Christ under an entire Web-Site baring CHRIST's name.

1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father[GOD-THEISM-A DIETY]and the Son.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

AND YES, I AM aware that this Biblical Quote is "OPINION" to an atheist but IS NOT to a "CHRIST"ian or even the claim of a "CHRIS(?)ian and especially not "BIBLE"ans. IF AND ONLY IF one of these OWNS, CREATED, or MODERATES this website: C(?)F then THEY would know that giving place to icons/people/and opinions of non-theist is UNLAWFUL allowing place for CHRIST to be persecuted in this cyber-community by anti-christ/anti-"christ"ian. :amen:


FINALLY a REQUEST:

So that we can allow this thread to get back to the issue of the morality of homosexual "love". Please respond to me if you need in PM and I will do likewise for you.....I will no longer post to you here except with the letters SEE PM if in defiance ( a typical expected atheist behavior)...you are not sensitive to this request. :thumbsup:
 
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quatona

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No what I am criticizing the owner/creators for is placing in the MAIN banner of the website the words: "Christian Forum "S" implying more than one Christian Forum for the purpose of : "Uniting all "HELLO" "CHRIST"IANS {NOT PEOPLE, HUMANS] into ONE BODY.

This is the Promotional Banner on the HOME page. It's then is FULL of Jesus and Religious links

Therefore, I question "WHY" the owners created "atheist" icons or even any SUB forum accommodating them.

Now see if you can follow OK? The very word "Christ"ian means "of the man JESUS CHRIST" CF FORUM"S* should NOT bare the name of a forum as you put it if it does not as you put it "imply" that it's "only" for "Christ"IANS.

Moreover, Created in the "Christ"ian spirit implies : the "Spirit" that was in the man CHRIST....which Spirit Atheist don't even believe EXIST.

Now if you are a declared "seeking" atheist or "questioning" atheist then that would make sense.

Humanism accommodates ALL faiths including and especially atheism to bring "freedom" as they see it from religious thought.

THAT WAS NEVER IN THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST.....HE "WAS" RELIGIOUS.

Conclusion: Any "spirit" of the man CHRIST [Christian Spirit] is by NATURE........RELIGIOUS AND THEIST

Why, do you think, icons for atheists, agnostics and all sorts of religions are available on a website if it is intended to be only for Christians? Doesn´t make sense, eh?
/QUOTE]

No it doesn't...the very point I am making.

However, it makes PERFECT sense if:

1) The site creators and monitors are REALLY Humanistic (as many who think they are Christian truly are) or "gulp" even Pagan !

OR

2) Christians/Chris(?)ians who are trying to "segregate" or herd or exile those annoying anti-Christian people who come into Christian Forums with none-Christian agendas into a sub forum to keep them away from Christians/Chris(?)ians so they won't have to constantly defend what they believe---genius huh? also deceptive
As far as I can see, these are issues you have with the owners of this site. I can´t help you with that.

You declared my life-long faith "opinion" and that I MUST remember that. then you turn right around and state:

Was not your initial dig that initiated this dialog an "opinion" about what "I" believe "imposed" upon "ME"?..........YE atheist hypocrites!:D
Except that I didn´t say that. You must confuse me with someone else.

Thank you for the kindness of answering my question....I accept that explaination. However: My faith does not create "cognitive dissonance" for me so if it would do so for you, then atheist may be the best way for you to live and believe.
Sure mine is the best way to live for me, and yours is the best to live for you - but what is your complaint then, actually?

If this were so, you would not have posted:
Again: I haven´t posted this.
On another note, I do not really see the problem with the poster reminding you that what you call "truth" is, for purposes of these discussions, not more than your personal opinion.

Ah! now here is the my REAL . Since "membership" in this particular CF forum web site is "open to all" without questioning whether they are believers or not, The owners intentions must be one of the 2 that I spoke of above.
Then write a complaint to the owners. I am invited here, I am told that I am welcome. That you don´t like this fact is nothing I can do anything about.

Since you initiated our dialog with...
For the third time: You ascribe a statement to me that I haven´t made.

Now in your arrogance you forget it was YOU that addressed ME first with that personal dig ....seems to me it's YOU as an atheist who don't want to be exposed to "my" opinions.....in light of "your" opinions that is LOL:D
Before you get even more insulting, for the fourth time: I didn´t say that.
Sure we are talking our opinions here. Calling one´s opinion the "truth" doesn´t change anything about that.

Moreover REAL "Chist"ianity is a following of the "teachings" of a historical figure namely Yeshuah [Jesus] Christ of Nazareth Israel.

Since CHRIST [LORD of the CHRISTIANS] historically taught:

John 18:37

Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the [HELLO]" TRUTH". Every one that is of the [HELLO]"TRUTH" heareth my voice[The VERY definition of [HELLO]"CHRIST"IAN].

CHRIST of the word CHRISTIAN talked about TRUTH constantly.....
Why shouldn't HIS followers? HE is the one that declared it TRUTH in the first place

Pseudo-Christians do not promote Christ's teachings but "Humanistic an Humanitarian" views that are common to both Christ AND many other Sages down through the years and Atheist.




I would not be surprised as many of these so-called Christian [Chris(?)ian] Forums are not "Christ"ian AT ALL otherwise they would promote Christ teachings and discussions about it and NONE OTHER.

They take some humanitarian verses from the ministry of Christ to mean that Christ promoted a "humanist" approach to others. They have a "socially and politically correct" gospel and not that of "the historical figure--the man Christ".
This entire TrueScotsman stuff is not my issue, but one that you would have to discuss with your fellow True/NonTrue/REAL/UNREAL fellow Christians.
How do you know this....Are you one of the creators of the site?
No, but I have read the terms and conditions and rules.

Bottom line:
1) I think you have the "right" to speak out as an atheistic person, the dialog is always healthy and needed.
Good. I also think you have the right to speak.

2) Maybe this sub forum should not be a part of the collection of "Christ"ian Forums, but a part of a stand-alone independent Ethics and Morality Open Forum. But I realize that will not happen nor was ever intended if one of the two previous conditions exist here at CF"S
I can´t help you with this problem.

3) It is NOT my intention to "show" my statements to atheist to be TRUTH. It is a personal experience NONE - TRANSFERABLE like imperical knowledge (science) is by definition.
That´s fine with me.

4) My beef is NOT particularly with you [if you are not the owner/controller] but the creators/owners of the web-site creating place for those who are of the spirit of anti-Christ under an entire Web-Site baring CHRIST's name.
Then why do you derail threads for the purpose of discussing this issue with persons who have no say in this, anyways?

1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father[GOD-THEISM-A DIETY]and the Son.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

AND YES, I AM aware that this Biblical Quote is "OPINION" to an atheist but IS NOT to a "CHRIST"ian or even the claim of a "CHRIS(?)ian and especially not "BIBLE"ans. IF AND ONLY IF one of these OWNS, CREATED, or MODERATES this website: C(?)F then THEY would know that giving place to icons/people/and opinions of non-theist is UNLAWFUL allowing place for CHRIST to be persecuted in this cyber-community by anti-christ/anti-"christ"ian.
Persecuted, eh? :doh:

FINALLY a REQUEST:

So that we can allow this thread to get back to the issue of the morality of homosexual "love". Please respond to me if you need in PM and I will do likewise for you.....I will no longer post to you here except with the letters SEE PM if in defiance ( a typical expected atheist behavior)...you are not sensitive to this request. :thumbsup:
Listen Mreal, your insults are not called for. Just cut it and try to be civil.
Next: You are the one who insensitively started discussing things where they don´t belong.
If you would be interested in carrying this discussion to PMs you wouldn´t have answered here but would have written me a PM yourself.
Lastly: You have publicly ascribed statements to me that are not mine. So I think you have to tolerate that I correct that publicly.
 
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