[OPEN]Abortion crisis in the UK

glo1 · Apr 27, 2007

I came across this article in The Independent a week or two ago.

Britain is facing an abortion crisis because an unprecedented number of doctors are refusing to be involved in carrying out the procedure. The exodus of doctors prepared to perform the task is a nationwide phenomenon that threatens to plunge the abortion service into chaos, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG) has warned.
[...]
Distaste at performing terminations combined with ethical and religious convictions has led to a big increase in "conscientious objectors" who request exemption from the task, the RCOG says. A key factor is what specialists call "the dinner party test". Gynaecologists who specialise in fertility treatment creating babies for childless couples are almost universally revered - but no one boasts of being an abortionist.

As a result, after decades of campaigning, anti-abortion organisations may be on the point of achieving their objective by default. Repeated efforts to tighten the law have failed and public opinion remains firmly in support, but the growing number of doctors refusing to do the work means there may soon not be enough prepared to carry out terminations to meet demand.
[...]
He [Richard Warren] added: "There is an ethos that people go into medicine to save lives and look after people. Usually, a decision for termination is taken reluctantly even though it is recognised that it is in the best interests of the woman. It is difficult and upsetting work and it is done with obvious reticence. We are seeing more doctors who are reluctant to be involved in the process and this is happening in the context of growing demand."

Doctors have always been able to opt out of doing abortions on religious grounds. But, since the 1990s, guidance issued by the Faculty of Family Planning and the RCOG has included a conscientious objection clause.

Kate Guthrie, a spokesperson on family planning for the RCOG and a consultant in sexual and reproductive health in the North of England, said: "You get no thanks for performing abortions; you get spat on. Who admits to friends at a dinner party that they are an abortionist? It is not a sexy area; it is a bog standard area of women's care. The problem is that the more who exit the area, the more those that remain are dumped on [with extra work].
[...]

Full article http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health_medical/article2452408.ece

The way I understood the article, reasons to refuse doing abortions are not just purely religious grounds, but also ethical and moral grounds.

Any thoughts on what affect this may have?

glo

glo1 · Apr 27, 2007

Forgot to [open] this thread ... can any of the mods do this for me, please?

Thanks!

glo

non-religious · Apr 27, 2007

I'm glad to see this transformation take place. I think it's a good thing the fact that it's being discussed. More education, awareness and most importantly support for women who decide to go ahead with the pregnancy should be available. Some form of monetary incentive, benefit to help with costs etc.... The more doctors who opt of the procedure the more difficult it would become to have an abortion. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

Lyndiette · Apr 27, 2007

I work with physicians who refuse to perform abortions... it's a level of action that can make a difference.
It's not always easy to refuse 'services', and I have the highest respect for docs who do not compromise their personal ethics.

glo1 · Apr 27, 2007

I don't describe myself as anti-abortion at all - but I must admit that if I was a surgeon I would want to perform abortions either ... I guess that's pretty hypocritical of me ... :scratch:

glo

progressivegal · Apr 27, 2007

That's sad. The doctors I've known who perform abortions do not do so because it's "fun", or for the money or anything like that. They do so because they know that if they don't, someone who is less qualified, or unqualified will. I don't think nI could perform an abortion (or any type of surgery period) but though I don't really LIKE the idea of abortion, I'm glad that there are doctors who are trained and knowledgeable that can perform them in a safe and clean environment.

Monica02 · Apr 27, 2007

progressivegal said:
That's sad. The doctors I've known who perform abortions do not do so because it's "fun", or for the money or anything like that. They do so because they know that if they don't, someone who is less qualified, or unqualified will. I don't think nI could perform an abortion (or any type of surgery period) but though I don't really LIKE the idea of abortion, I'm glad that there are doctors who are trained and knowledgeable that can perform them in a safe and clean environment.

So do the abortionists you know work for free? Every abortion mill I have ever called has insisted on cash or credit card - no checks.

progressivegal · Apr 27, 2007

Monica02 said:
So do the abortionists you know work for free? Every abortion mill I have ever called has insisted on cash or credit card - no checks.

Well it's a "free clinic" so for donations if they have no insurance.

Monica02 · Apr 27, 2007

progressivegal said:
Well it's a "free clinic" so for donations if they have no insurance.

Where is this free clinic? Why are all these people coming to "you gotta pay" mills when they could be getting their abortion free?

The abortionist - does he or she work for free?

seebs · Apr 27, 2007

I feel that terms like "abortion mill" are problematic; I have known too many people whose lives were saved by doctors in reproductive health clinics. The term is derogatory and hostile in a way that creates a barrier to engagement and discussion.

HannahBanana · Apr 27, 2007

To answer the OP's question, this will likely have a bad result, since women will continue to go to any lengths possible to get an abortion. Heck, women were getting abortions back in the Biblical days (proof here), so there's no reason that they'd stop seeking them out now. It's sad, though, that people can't seem to realize that, and that people are willingly putting women's lives in jeopardy by wanting abortion clinics to be a rarity. Some (but definitely NOT all) pro-lifers seem to be more "pro-fetus" than "pro-life." If that fetus grows up to be a woman with an unwanted pregnancy of her own, those "pro-fetus" people seem to think that her life doesn't matter anymore, even though she used to be one of the fetuses that they were so valiantly wanting to be born. That viewpoint makes no sense to me. I will never understand pro-lifers, that's for sure...

progressivegal · Apr 27, 2007

Monica02 said:
Where is this free clinic? Why are all these people coming to "you gotta pay" mills when they could be getting their abortion free?

The abortionist - does he or she work for free?

She's not an "Abortionist" she's an OB-GYN who happens to perform abortions. I know she does not work for free, it's her job, but working a in a free clinic she does not make as much money as a doctor who owns a private practice. Not all cities/states have free clinics, some do. Depedning on the clinic and the city, some services may or may not be offered. Though this clinic does perform abortions, they also offer many other health services as well such as pre-natal care, pap-smears, diabetes tests, STD tests,vaccinatiohns, etc. For the safty of the health care workers and the patients I would rather not disclose the location.

glo1 · Apr 28, 2007

HippieForChrist said:
To answer the OP's question, this will likely have a bad result, since women will continue to go to any lengths possible to get an abortion. Heck, women were getting abortions back in the Biblical days (proof here), so there's no reason that they'd stop seeking them out now. It's sad, though, that people can't seem to realize that, and that people are willingly putting women's lives in jeopardy by wanting abortion clinics to be a rarity. Some (but definitely NOT all) pro-lifers seem to be more "pro-fetus" than "pro-life." If that fetus grows up to be a woman with an unwanted pregnancy of her own, those "pro-fetus" people seem to think that her life doesn't matter anymore, even though she used to be one of the fetuses that they were so valiantly wanting to be born. That viewpoint makes no sense to me. I will never understand pro-lifers, that's for sure...

Hi Hippie

I suppose the question is whether doctors should have the right to refuse carrying out abortions on religious/ethical/moral grounds, or whether they shouldn't.

I guess at the other extreme of the argument you may find that doctors choose clinical areas other than surgery, if their conviction against abortions are strong enough - and we end up lacking in all kinds of surgical procedures, not just abortions.

I suppose giving people the freedom to refuse certain jobs only works as long as there are still enough people left who will do it ...

The last thing we need is a rise of back-street abortionists or bizarre home-remedies, which put women's health at risk.

glo

glo1 · Apr 28, 2007

Thanks to whoever [open]ed this thread! :wave:

fuzzymel · Apr 28, 2007

I dont there will be a crisis.

Here we have three doctors who can perform abortions and one of them decided not to because some people kept coming back for more. He did not agree with people using abortions as birth control (I gotta agree with him on that one). Things arent too bad with two though.

glo1 · Apr 28, 2007

fuzzymel said:
I dont there will be a crisis.

Here we have three doctors who can perform abortions and one of them decided not to because some people kept coming back for more. He did not agree with people using abortions as birth control (I gotta agree with him on that one). Things arent too bad with two though.

Interesting point, fuzzymel.

So can doctors refuse specific abortions on specific grounds, even if they generally agree to carry out abortions?

I always assumed it was an all-or-nothing kind of decision.

glo

progressivegal · Apr 28, 2007

fuzzymel said:
I dont there will be a crisis.

Here we have three doctors who can perform abortions and one of them decided not to because some people kept coming back for more. He did not agree with people using abortions as birth control (I gotta agree with him on that one). Things arent too bad with two though.

Just curious, is "here" a hospital? a town? a country? (Forgive my ignorance). On a side note about people coming back for more :ugh!: I almost don't blame him, EDUCATION is key to preventing pregnancy.
I'm not sure how it is other places, but in the US we have a shameful lack of sex education. I know there's some people who come back for more and more abortions because they like the attention, they like being cared for and babied by the nurses because they receive 0 love and affection in their real life. It's a phenomenon we talked about at a planned parenthood conference when I was in college. And it's not OK. Not that these girls shouldn't be given love and kindness, but they should be given hope as well, free counseling, free birth control and education on how to use it properly.

Lyndiette · Apr 28, 2007

glo1 said:
I guess at the other extreme of the argument you may find that doctors choose clinical areas other than surgery, if their conviction against abortions are strong enough - and we end up lacking in all kinds of surgical procedures, not just abortions.

I don't view this as being very likely to happen. Most surgery does not present a moral issue, the deliberate taking of human life does.

glo1 · Apr 28, 2007

Lyndiette said:
I don't view this as being very likely to happen. Most surgery does not present a moral issue, the deliberate taking of human life does.

I was just wondering if trainee doctors might choose other areas to specialise in, if carrying out abortion was an obligatory part of surgery. So, rather than going against their moral/ethical/religious convictions they would specialise elsewhere.

Incidentally, I am assuming here that surgeons are the ones who do abortions ...
Or is it gynacologists? Or both?
I have no idea ...

glo

fuzzymel · Apr 29, 2007

progressivegal said:
Just curious, is "here" a hospital? a town? a country? (Forgive my ignorance). On a side note about people coming back for more :ugh!: I almost don't blame him, EDUCATION is key to preventing pregnancy.
I'm not sure how it is other places, but in the US we have a shameful lack of sex education. I know there's some people who come back for more and more abortions because they like the attention, they like being cared for and babied by the nurses because they receive 0 love and affection in their real life. It's a phenomenon we talked about at a planned parenthood conference when I was in college. And it's not OK. Not that these girls shouldn't be given love and kindness, but they should be given hope as well, free counseling, free birth control and education on how to use it properly.

Sorry I should explain. I am from a tiny island off the coast of France (though part of the UK). The population is only 60,000.

[OPEN]Abortion crisis in the UK

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