Is Our Sin Nature dead or NOT?

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Of all the doctrines of Christ, this may be one of the most misunderstood. And aside from faith for salvation and repentance it is the most important subject for the new Christian to learn. In this teaching is found the core intent of the purpose of God in salvation and creation itself. 

1 Corinthians 15:
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
 

That we have been baptized into Christ is part of the overall plan of God to be "all in all". These words are difficult for the natural mind to receive. They are just words to the natural man. But the spirit man inside receives them and there is a burning. God wants to be in us, and being baptized into Christ is the process by which this goal is accomplished.

Because Adam died spiritually,  it is logical to say that he was "born again" as a child of the devil. His spirit became one with satan in nature and ability to do righteousness. He became of a member of the "body of satan" or the "kingdom of darkness". He was not satan in his identity, but he was a child of satan. This state of being is called "spiritual death" in the scriptures.

Looking at the passage in Genesis 2 we see the following:

Genesis 2 16 
¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
 

The last phrase is very unusual in the Hebrew. It says:

"...for in the day that thou eatest thereof, in dying you will die."

There were two deaths that occurred on that day. One was the death of the spirit of Adam, and the other was the (eventual) death of his body. The spiritual death was passed onto all man. This is evidenced by the fact that all men have sinned. The physical death is just one result of the inner spiritual death.

The sin that Adam sinned was a "sin unto death"(1 John 5:16-17). That is it was a sin that resulted in spiritual death.There is "sin not unto death". This is all sin that does not result in spiritual death. A great deal of confusion is caused when people believe that they die spiritually each time they sin a "sin not unto death". Sin unto death is called sin "after the similitude of Adam" in Romans 5. 

Romans 5:14 
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
 

In other words all men who were born from then on were born with the same spiritually dead nature even though they did not sin the same "sin unto death" (after the similitude of Adam). They put forth evil fruit which comes from all spiritually dead people. 99% of all sin sinned by Christians today is this sort of sin. It is sin "not unto death". If a Christian were to sin a "sin unto death" it would result in his spiritual death like Adam, because this is a sin "after the similitude of Adam". 

When a man is born again, this old nature is done away. It is abolished and completely eliminated out of existence. It is "passed away". Unlike the death of Adam in the garden, the spirit is not just changed from it's former state into a new state. In the new birth, the old spirit passes away, and the regenerate spirit that is placed into man is completely new. 

2 Corinthians 5:17 
Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
 

In Isaiah 53, likely one of the greatest chapters in the Old Testament, there is a verse that parallels the two deaths of Genesis 2.

Isaiah 53:9 
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.


The word "death" is "deaths" in the Hebrew. Jesus died two deaths on the cross. He first became one with us, and was made sin for (and with) us, so that when He was raised from this state of death, we would be raised up together with Him. He then died physically as the lamb of God for the sins of the world. One death was for "sins", and the other was for "sinfulness". One dealt with the problem of our inner nature, the other dealt with the individual sins of every man throughout history. 

When we discuss the topic of baptism into Christ, it is first needful to understand that we were dead with Christ, and He was dead with us. We are baptized into His death with Him when we believe in the gospel. This passage in Romans is rich in spiritual truth that must enter into your logosystem if you are to totally overcome sin in your manner of life. 

Romans 6: 
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: 
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 


You were baptized into Jesus Christ. It is not symbolic or metaphorical. When Adam sinned, he was baptized into satan. That is he became one with satan in nature and identity. A child like unto his father. When we believe into Christ, we are one with Him in His death, burial, AND resurrection. This is the key. In order for us to be raised together with Him, He had to willingly become one with us in death. 

There was such rejoicing in hell on that day that Jesus descended into the pit, defeated and broken. Laden with the sin of mankind. One with man in death, being made sin for us. Jesus was one with fallen mankind on that day. But there was to be a victory that the devil could not conceive of. He did not know that because Jesus became one with us, we would be one with Him when God raised Him from the dead. When Jesus was raised up from the dead, we were raised with Him. When God quickened Jesus form the state of death and sin, we were quickened up together with Him. 

Few people can bare these verses. They exceed the ability of the mind to grasp. Yet we were one with Christ in death, and are raised up together with Him in new creation life. We cannot grasp or understand how these things could have transpired. But the scripture is clear. Jesus was made sin for us, died two deaths, and was one with us. When Jesus descended into hell, it was the whole body of Christ that descended with Him. The body was already destined to be there. When Jesus (who is the head of the body) descended, it appeared to the devil that the defeat was total. But when God saw that it was enough, He raised up Jesus the head, and glory to God: the body came with Him!

Ephesians 2: 
1 ¶ And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 
4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:


We could not be quickened together with him from a state of sin unless we both shared that state. He was made sin, and was one with us so that when God raised Him from the dead, we would be raised up together with Him.
 
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What a great reply! Thanks.
Your reply seems to be the way I have learned this to mean also. Not many agree with this.
In the first paragraph, your relpy stated...
Of all the doctrines of Christ, this may be one of the most misunderstood. And aside from faith for salvation and repentance it is the most important subject for the new Christian to learn. In this teaching is found the core intent of the purpose of God in salvation and creation itself.

I agree that it is one of the most misunderstood.
Thanks for your input.
 
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IB

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Agreed, this is a misunderstood concept, here is my take:

Sin Nature
First of all, we do not have a ‘Sin Nature’. It is not our nature to sin. We were created in God’s image and likeness:

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [2] and over all the creatures that move along the ground." Gen 1:26.

If we believe that this scripture is true then to say we have a sin nature is to say that God also has a sin nature. We were created in His likeness. Is it God’s nature to sin? No! Before Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, did they run around the garden sinning? No! So was it their nature to sin? No! So what happened? Let’s look at this scripture:

When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. James 1:13-16

It is our own evil desires within us that cause us to sin, not our nature. The nature of something is what something does naturally. For example, a dog barks. It is a dog’s nature to bark. So what is more natural for you, to sin or to do good? Do most people you know spend most of their day sinning or doing good? Here is a worthy scripture:

Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy." 1Peter1:13-16

Again we see that we once conformed to our evil desires, but now are called to be holy. We are not being called to change our nature, but rather to be self-controlled. Also look at 2Tim2:22, 2Tim3:6, Col 3:5, and Rom 6:12. You will start to see a pattern here where evil desires are the problem.

Many Christians believe we have a sin nature and will probably disagree with my reasoning, however keep in mind Gen 1:26 that we were created in God’s likeness.


I do agree with didaskalos that we become a new creation through baptism. However this does not change our nature. It does wash away our sins and removes the stumbling block.

See ya, Idaho Bassman
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Originally posted by IB
Agreed, this is a misunderstood concept, here is my take....


 

Thank you for sharing brother...

I take it you either are a fisherman or that you play the bass? :wave:

 
 
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franklin

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    Originally posted by Kimbirlie
I am currently studying about the sin nature. Deep subject!
Please share your views......

~What is the "Sin Nature" ? 
 

Hi Kim, First of all I don't believe that God created us with a sinful nature. The Scripture does not teach that men must have a sinful nature in order to sin; it teaches that men sin in spite of a good nature.  Did you ever wonder why Adam & Eve sinned even though they didn't have a sinful nature?  Well, if they were created perfect, then how was it possible for them to sin? The fact is they did sin as if they had a sinful nature.  Sin is not a substance that infects our physical flesh like some physical disease that can be passed on from person to person. So to answer the question why they sinned?  It was because of temptation that they commited sin.  The following verses also show that we are created in the image and likeness of God, and therefore with a good and upright nature (Genesis 1:26,27; 9:6, I Corinthians 11:7, James 3:9).

 
   
~Is the sin nature dead in believers? [/B]
 

Again, It is still in every believer to give into temptation and sin and it's not because of the belief that we have a sin nature and weather it is dead or not.  Sin is universal, not because of an inherited sin nature, but because temptation is universal, and, because when men are tempted, they choose to indulge their own desires, rather than obey the law of God written in their hearts.

   
~What does the bible mean by "flesh" ? [/B]


Paul spoke of "sin that dwelleth in me" (Romans 7:17). He said, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing" (Romans 7:18). And he spoke of "sin which is in my members" (Romans 7:23).  It is true that Paul uses language in these texts that appears to teach the doctrine of a sinful, physical constitution or sinful nature. But the language that Paul uses is not literal; it is figurative. When the Apostle speaks of the flesh in the sense of being sinful, he is never speaking of the flesh in its literal or physical sense. This is evident from the following verses in Romans (Romans 7:5; 8:8-9). 

Thank you for your post, it is a very interesting thread you have started.

FR
 
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LouisBooth

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Sin nature is not something we have "orginally". It is the result of adam's sin, thus upon birth we have a sin nature and can do no good whatso ever. When you become a christian you are seperated from that sin nautre and it "dies" never to return again.
 
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suzie

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I believe we have a sin nature. We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. Sin is an inherent part of who we are. Sinning comes naturally to us. "The human heart is most deceitful and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is? (jeremiah 17:9) King David wrote "I was born a sinner-yes, from the moment my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5)
God did create man and woman in His image. We cannot be physically like God for God is Spirit.We are reflections of His glory--we have the ability to reflect his character with love, patience, forgiveness, kindness and faithfulness.We can never be totally like God for we are his creations. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, that set in motion the world's tendancy toward disobeying God. There is not one of us that is without sin. We cant help but sin-any sin breaks fellowship with God. Jesus took on all the sin of the world and became the atonement for sin. Through Him and only through Him, we can have forgiveness and be restored to eternal life. We are no longer bound to sin as believers.
 
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IB

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LouisBooth,

I read Rom 3 and you are right in verse 12 it does say "there is no one who does good." So if you want to take that scripture out of context, set it aside and apply it to the world today, then there is no one who does good. However you must also do the same with verse 11 which says "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God." Apply this verse to the world today and you are telling me that you and I are not seeking God. Not true. I seek God with all my heart. So obviously there must be a deeper meaning to these verses. The writer of Romans in this section was quoting passages from Psalms to make a point, not to set a precedent. The point he was trying to make is found in verses 19 -20

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

No one will be declared righteous by observing the law. Under the Law there is no one good, or that seeks God. This is not saying that people don't do good or don't do good deeds. Nor is this saying that people can only do evil by nature which is the topic of this discussion.

We do not have a 'sin nature'. We were created in the likeness of God. To say we have a 'sin nature' is like passing the buck or making excusses for our sin rather than taking responsibility and confessing and repenting. You can say to God, "it is not my fault I sinned, I have a 'sin nature' which You gave me." THAT IS CRAZY!!! We sin when our own evil desires whithin us take over. Again:

When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. James 1:13-16

Understanding that we don't have a 'sin nature' is important on our road to humility before God. That we take responsibility for our actions.

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1John2:1-2

Romans chapter 5 is actually a good reference in defense of not having a 'sin nature'. I will just make one point from this chapter, look at this verse:

Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. Rom5:14


Notice it says "even over those who did not sin..." so between the time of Adam and Moses there were those who did not sin. How is this possible if they have a 'sin nature'? This is possible because there were no commands given, no law to break, but this is a deep subject that should be discussed later

See ya, Idaho Bassman
 
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LouisBooth

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"However you must also do the same with verse 11 which says "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God." "

YOu're right, It totally describes the world today, just like it described the day in which Paul lived AFTER christ was murdered. That's what it says IN context.

"We do not have a 'sin nature'. "

Yes, we do, before you become a christian that is exactly what you have. It is destroyed when you become a christian, that is why you are dead without christ, dead in your sins and you do not seek God, you are not good at all. This is you in your sin nature.

"You can say to God, "it is not my fault I sinned, I have a 'sin nature' which You gave me"

This is where you are misunderstanding. We choose to be sinful, thus God didn't give us our sinful nature, we choose it. See romans 5. Death came to all men.

"This is possible because there were no commands given, no law to break, but this is a deep subject that should be discussed later"

No, it means they didn't break a commandment at all, for there was no WRITTEN law. See Romans 7 :)
 
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Hank

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
Sin nature is not something we have "orginally". It is the result of adam's sin, thus upon birth we have a sin nature and can do no good whatso ever. When you become a christian you are seperated from that sin nautre and it "dies" never to return again.

Prolly risking getting banned again, but you do not have to become a Christian to neutralize 'Sin Nature'. There might be no such thing.

Here is an in depth analysis about this concept.

http://www.mediamonitors.net/clararisingbook2.html#_Toc799786a
 
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Okay, to add to the complexity of this thread...

Especially to those who claim there is no such thing as original sin...


Why is it that babies die? What "sin" have they committed? What have these innocents done either good or bad to deserve death? It is a complex question. (Hint: it answers the question of original sin). The Apostle Paul answers this...
 
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I believe in original sin for all men, except Adam, (and Christ, the second Adam) who did not have sin within him when he was created. He was created innocent. However, sin enter the world of mankind the moment Adam disobeyed God in the garden of Eden. Mankind has had a sinful nature ever since and that is my concept of original sin or as some call it the sinful nature. They are the same to me. Adam, thank you very much!
 
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Originally posted by Kimbirlie
I am currently studying about the sin nature. Deep subject!
Please share your views......

~What is the "Sin Nature" ?
~Is the sin nature dead in believers?
~What does the bible mean by "flesh" ?

Thanks for sharing your views!! :wave:

 

Sin nature or original sin - the action of the conscious personality ~ mind, will and emotion ~apart from God.

 

Sin nature dead in believers?  Nope.  I wish. :sigh:

Paul describes this war within that the believer goes thru in Romans 7:15-24.

What does the bible mean by "flesh"?

It is also called the "old self" refer to the operation of the conscious personality apart from the controlling influence of the Holy Spirit thru a dominate spirit.  Therefore, to live according to the soul ~ accoridng to the dictate of one's own mind, will, and emotions ~ is to live accord to the flesh, the old self.  Not something a Christian should be doing, unless he wants to be disciplined by the Lord.  It would not be fun and it smarts!  (rubbing back side.) :sorry:

 

 
 
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Hank

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Originally posted by ladylove
Okay, to add to the complexity of this thread...

Especially to those who claim there is no such thing as original sin...


Why is it that babies die? What "sin" have they committed? What have these innocents done either good or bad to deserve death? It is a complex question. (Hint: it answers the question of original sin). The Apostle Paul answers this...

Well I claim (firmly believe) that there is no Original Sin. Babies die for the same reason people in a car accident die. Death does no signal or show proof of wrong doing. Have you read the link?

One point it makes, Adam and Eve were created, but to receive life everlasting they would have needed to eat the "other" fruit. Genesis 3:22 (NIV) -And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." - What does that indicate on the status of Adam and Eve? If death indicates inherent sin, God created them as such. Yes, as you said it's complex. 
 
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LouisBooth

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"Paul describes this war within that the believer goes thru in Romans 7:15-24. "

I would disagree that this passage is about believers in the current sence. it cannot be because on believe is sold as a slave to sin. Paul's main trust in pretty much every letter he wrote was that you are NO longer a slave to sin if you are saved. This passage is a christian in the current time looking back on his life before he became a christian.
 
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Jephunneh

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God deals with His children who sin.

Hebrews 12
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]s, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
 
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