[open]Struggles of the Faith

Im_A · Apr 21, 2007

thank you freespirit for sharing your thoughts as always. good to see your still around these parts.

i think i'll sum up things that have been going through my head.

all these Christian views of Jesus seem nothing more than a Christianized pagan view. like somehow Christian views because they are pertained to Jesus Christ has superceded the pagan mythological views as truth becauase it is based on real people when in comparision there is nothing that much different. it, sometimes seems more like a justification process to believe in whatever we want to believe and to disbelieve in whatever we want to disbelieve in.

yet i still find Jesus's teachings as the way to live life in the here and now as the best. makes no sense in all reality for me to say these things but facts are the facts.

i have just become tired of thinking, i have to be mythological in the way i live my life to have a great life with God. i'm a 21st century human beings. i see reasons to believe in the mythological aspects of Christ, but whether they hold ground as facts i'm starting to re-think it all.

the idea of defining God based on my needs, hopes, desires seems nothing but a selfish religious life that is only in vain of the very fact that we are alone in this world and we have this need to believe that everything has a reason, and that "God" is that reason. what i see as God is a being that cannot be defined in finite definitions to the its fullest (Christian or not). to not make an image of God which i think goes beyond just physical things we make with our hands, but also the mental projections (but i'm sure this could be seen as self-contradicting myself, because to define God as nothing in finite terms is a definition within itself.)

so the only way i have been able to deal with the struggles of my own faith is forget about them and focus on the greatest commandments of Christ and live this life out. i don't bother with preaching the theological tenants of traditional Christianity. they are easy to accept. mythological descriptions are easy to accept because we believe God is capable of ANYTHING thus it is easy with that first thought in place to accept well any kind of traditional mythological Christian view of Jesus, God or whatever else out there as being possible. just now i'm wandering if i'm starting to see the pointlessness of them all for the life lived in the here and now. only time will tell sis

freespirit2001 · Apr 22, 2007

Questions are more valueable than the answers sometimes----and sometimes, questions are the answer.

The crow....

"The Fragrance of Spiritual Intelligence" They ride on these winds, and walk with the fire in the winds...

....The fires of the winds of the Spirit--- the fresh winds of the Spirit, of gathering others of instinctive sense.

It has to be VISION--- A Hunting hungry vision---a DEEP SPIRITUAL SCENTING KIND OF VISION------

Emptying out all inside, struggling with this emptying out---is the hard part:
hungering for the Real, hungering for the energy and the second winds of the Spirit.....

I hope to hold onto "The Crown of Life" through it all....

I find people of foreign cultures, especially of the East---close to where our wars are now located ( the Pakistani and the Chinese in town) ---I like their own spiritual light and honest adept elegance that goes back not hundreds of years in time---but the light of the Spirit--- can take some back----thousands of years....their cultures are so old.....
They speak so deeply also with nature.

Light---the grand champion!

Loving the Light of the Lord's Divine Love and Reasoning for us---His Divine Grace---and asking any and all questions about Vision directly to Him.....through His Light and Living Holy Word.

Knowledge is the bridge of culture, it is the equalizer of our human essences....

I can't help but feel real pangs for the grief I feel that this realness of the Lord and His Holy Kingdom,
---like there is some deliberate destiny that is going to happen here---

and some unfinished business of the Lord's:
coming out of all of it....

"A man may die, nations may rise and fall, but an idea lives on."

JFK

[bible]Isaiah 61:4[/bible]

Christ as my Sacred Ancient Way

seebs · Apr 22, 2007

Tat, I'm pretty much with you, I think.

A friend of mine recently started going to church again after a long absence. He still considers himself a naturalist.

What fools we are to let such words divide us, when we agree on the reality! Get out there and love some neighbors; Through you, God acts; through them, God accepts these actions.

You may be having the problem, which many have, that as God-in-you grows powerful, it becomes less useful to imagine God being a separate thing. The fountain knows nothing of water.

Im_A · Apr 23, 2007

seebs said:
Tat, I'm pretty much with you, I think.

A friend of mine recently started going to church again after a long absence. He still considers himself a naturalist.

What fools we are to let such words divide us, when we agree on the reality! Get out there and love some neighbors; Through you, God acts; through them, God accepts these actions.

You may be having the problem, which many have, that as God-in-you grows powerful, it becomes less useful to imagine God being a separate thing. The fountain knows nothing of water.

always appreciate your posts Seebs.

i agree with you whole heartidly. thanks again for your words as always.

Im_A · Apr 23, 2007

seebs said:
Tat, I'm pretty much with you, I think.

A friend of mine recently started going to church again after a long absence. He still considers himself a naturalist.

What fools we are to let such words divide us, when we agree on the reality! Get out there and love some neighbors; Through you, God acts; through them, God accepts these actions.

You may be having the problem, which many have, that as God-in-you grows powerful, it becomes less useful to imagine God being a separate thing. The fountain knows nothing of water.

btw seebs, you brought up something interesting for me to think about.

i'm in the process still of making a big church switch. thing is, like your friend, sitting in church doesn't give me the hope that all these "struggles" will be fixed. i do agree that when two or more gather that Jesus is there "spiritually" of course, but these new struggles are too big now to have likeminded believers around to just pass away. the struggles have created a better life lived, so to fix them up for my own mind seems destructive to me.

the main goal for my spiritual life is to serve God as if i have no need for God.

seebs · Apr 23, 2007

Some will fall in love with life
and drink it from a fountain
that is pouring like an avalanche
coming down the mountain.

freespirit2001 · Apr 24, 2007

seebs said:
Some will fall in love with life
and drink it from a fountain
that is pouring like an avalanche
coming down the mountain.

xoxlolxox!

freespirit2001 · Apr 28, 2007

Lightening crashes...the angel opens her eyes...

freespirit2001 · May 3, 2007

Seebs....

I really appreciate those lyrics you shared again...

I recorded these Rock songs, the year I lost a very close professional friend, my girlfriend, a legal social worker---to a violent car crash....in 1995...and the lyrics you shared was one of them...It really was a powerful memory awakener...

My family has really been split up from long term drug problems, the politics and connections that never let go...this occult bigotry...I'm glad I record and save the songs at the times I do....

I have some old gospel music from "Family Radio" back in 1981-83, another time when this occult bigotry ( occult warfare ) hit community politics and civil rights "issues" really hard on the Shore towns where we lived...

I wish I could find this violin and piano piece I recorded around the same decade, one night----I have no-name for the piece of the music I have saved from that time...
I also saved an unknown rendering of:---"He Walked That Lonesome Road" old gospel piece: it is orchestrated with Disney-like fantasia theater dimensions....Faith and survival is so creative and powerful to me!!!

These are my hardest struggles of true faith:
I have had to empty out ALL within, to listen and focus deep within---and I miss this power of my emptying out all at times, its not all the time with me....this power to empty out all....

I have had such hidden strength from the Lord, when I do empty out all---at these times of the most cruelest of profound evils:
"falling out of the stupid tree and hitting every branch going down"

"If I had all faith to move mountains...but have not love...I am nothing...."

The crow ( or Fish Crow or Raven) , is signicant to my life, as all of nature is of significant intelligence with the Lord, as with the winds it flies upon....(This bird of Elijah's) would always perch outside on the tree next to my second floor window, the exact moment I would wake up from deep dreams...
I am so attracted to this primitive and pagan-like nature (of the knowledge) of the fish crow, the ravens, the owls and nighthawks ( coffinbirds) (in spiritual studies) the winds they travel on, migration----wings of the spirit in our dreams--- where we come from...
I wonder about the wings, and flying like the eagle in our dreams----with all the feathers on our spiritual wings---not human arms or hands...

There is also a " King's Ransom " of knowledge in the foreign (market?) pics ( www.orientalbirdimages.org) of nightjars and owls...of their nation of scientists....

The nightjar nesting sites appear to be places were serious occult practices have taken place around our Old Shore towns...perhaps occult warfare---- backfiring?

Multi-Elis · May 6, 2007

I'm not going through a church change, no. But I am having to go through a radical change in attitude inorder to continue going to church. When church used to feed me and really interest me I regreted not having 10 $ to give for every helpfull session, just as I would for a dance class. Now, I think I should start paying back my debt by finding other ways of serving the people. That's the only way I will continue to want to go to church.

FLANDIDLYANDERS · May 6, 2007

So the real question is where is Happiness?

I sure didnt find it in "Church".

The "World" don't seem any more sensible to me, but there is a sort of reality that I found missing in Church.

The only times I'm close to happiness is in following what I think is right, with my freinds in conversation and Jesus out in the lead somewhere.

All the rest is up for grabs, IMO.

x

Izdaari Eristikon · May 6, 2007

tattedsaint said:
i'm just curious, alot of us here at WWMC are liberal, moderate, post-modern, gay, straight, or whatever that isn't along the majority here at CF. so what are all your struggles in the faith?

my main struggle is the faith itself anymore. i'll try to list this out to keep this OP short.

1. Christ's death. it's an ancient mentality that one can sacrifice themselves and take away the sins of their people, whether it be all the sins of all the people, or just the sins asked forgiveness for by those who choose or the specific elect. how many of us would accept an innocent man to die unjustly but yet we are so thankful one did? it just doesn't make sense anymore. i'm not saying that i don't see redemption in Christ's death on the cross, but i definetely don't have the the love for the ideas of redemption because an innocent man died. there just has to be more to it than that if it is of any use for our modern day.

2. the ancient practices. specifically communion/eucharist. it never occured to me till recently how odd a practice it really is. we eat our god. it's an ancient pagan practice and supposedly we supercede pagans when we slap on the God of Abraham/Jesus on it?

(This applies to the previous question also.)

It's ancient and pagan because all religions have at least bits and pieces of the truth. These are truths that God foreshadowed many times and places, mythopoeic archetypes, and Christ is the fulfillment of them.

3. being cleansed from sin. we believe that God is all around us and working in our lives. yet we still sin. the supposed power of the Gospel to create a new creation, well how can one become a new creation if they battle with the old man? don't get me wrong, i'm not making exscuses for my mistakes. i fail, it's my fault. it's just we are told we are set free from sin through the Gospel. it seems more like a mental projection of what we want to justify ourselves, or condemn ourselves so we are along some social standard, or to worship what we believe "God" is.

Don't feel alone, Paul struggled with it too. Being set free from sin doesn't mean we no longer are subject to temptation, because of course we are. But it does mean that if we have faith in Christ, we are no longer subject to condemnation for our sins. I find that very liberating. No guilt trips, I've been immunized. I still sin, but I have no need to worry, no need to feel guilty about it. I just pick myself up, tell God "Oops, sorry Lord. I screwed up. Forgive me (which I know He does anyway, but I feel better saying it) and help me to do better". Thus, any guilt I might be feeling, I cast it onto God, and just keep on keeping on, with not a worry in the world.

4. God's involvement in humanity's life. we here the statements that we give all our troubles to God, because God can take care of it. we go to God with things because scripture says so, yet critically looking at it, who's to say it is God? especially when those who don't believe in our God, acquires the same thing, or the same happiness? the story in Genesis has created this struggle in an odd way. i tend to see humanity as Adam. there to tend his garden. God is there, but we have a job to do on our own and without the interaction of some Divine being, until all our abilities are spent.

I'm not sure I understand this one. That is, your words are clear enough, but the thought pattern is alien to me. God offers us His help, but like a proud kid who refuses help from his parents because he's "big" now, we should reject it? I don't think so. We're not that "big" yet, and we really do need the help. Being able to cast all your cares on God is, like knowing that we're free from condemnation for sin, enormously liberating. And being able to ask God for help with anything, and actually expecting to get it, is enormously empowering. I'm certainly going to take advantage of it and so should you!

5. admitting to these things in any shape or form that God will turn His swift anger and ruin my life because i'm a doubting believer or questioning this faith. it's one of them things i call, "childish instincts" instilled me when i first became a Christian. you must believe the right things, never question the big things only the small things and you'll life will be fine, unless look out for the anger of a god dealing having anger management problems. obviously it's going away because here i am making a post about it but it's still there like a thorn in my side. i sometimes wonder if it stems from my past relationship with my father who knoows, but it's something i struggle with in my faith.

Yeah, could be father/authority figure issues. God isn't really like that ya know. You can talk to Him in prayer (which might even mean just talking out loud to Him, like Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof) and tell Him how you really feel about anything at all, including this stuff, and He'll be glad to hear you express it. Doesn't necessarily mean He'll agree... and He might even tell you you're full of crap... but He'll listen and He won't condemn you for it.

what are everyone else's? just think of this as a ventalation thread, or at least a consoling thread we can come to say, i feel ya, and i can relate. sometimes that helps in some weird way, even though it doesn't touch any of our issues by any means. just knowing we aren't alone is sometimes therapeutic (ok enough of the sappiness ).

Izdaari Eristikon · May 6, 2007

rowena said:
I struggle alot with Paul. I think he's a goober and that Christians rely on him far more then they should, but at the same time because I was raised in a Southern Baptist church that was considered to be legalistic even by the other Southern Baptists churches I still have this deep seated feeling that if I don't follow him to the letter then I'm dooming myself to hell.

Paul is so not a goober and so not a legalist! There's a few passages where he seems that way, but in the ones I know, that's because he's been badly translated or taken out of context (either textual or cultural), or because you need to realize that Paul's letters are half of a conversation, and most of them are directed to the problems of the church in a particular town. Personally, I find Paul very inspiring and liberating! It's Paul who makes it clear that salvation is purely by grace and not by works, especially in Romans and Galatians. That's what inspired Martin Luther to start the Reformation.

I also don't know where I belong exactly. My greatest wish is to be a nun, but I'm not Catholic and have serious enough issues with doctrine that I would be lying if I was to join the Catholic Church. But my Cathoic leanings make me highly uncomfortable in most other churches. I've found shelter in a Restoration Movement church, but its not where I truely feel like I belong. It doesn't sound like it, but its enough to make me think that maybe I don't really belong anywhere.

If you're attracted to Catholicism but have doctrinal issues with it, perhaps you should look into Lutheranism, Anglicanism or Orthodoxy. Btw, that also describes me; I'm checking out all three.

Kaonashi · Jul 11, 2007

[open]Struggles of the Faith

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