[open] A Seeker Has Some Questions That I Think You Can Answer

Im_A

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Hi Toney
I have not long fallen out of bed, and I am just sucking on my first coffee.
Perhaps it's not the best time to try and reply meaningfully to your post ... but I will try anyway ... ;)


Somehow that's the point I was trying to make.
I am not trying to convert DarkProphet, and I don't think anybody else can either. True conversion (in my mind) depends on a deep conviction from within.

It seems to me that DarkProphet may (or may not) be considering the Christina faith on a purely rational basis.
If the doctrine can be proven to be sound and justified, it may be a religion worth exploring ...

Perhaps there are people who become Christians on those grounds. To me personally it is an alien concept. :scratch:

Choosing to follow Christ is not like choosing your political party or joining a local club - it's about entering into a relationship with God, and having an inner desire to do so and to remain so.

I would be interested to hear about others' reasons for becoming a Christian ... because this is the only one I know ... :scratch:

glo

the reason why i became a Christian was the idea of "God" being a father i could look up to. in essence i don't think at the beginning it was because of the idea of Jesus. it was the first religion proposed to me. it was then later that the ideas of Jesus and what He did according in the Gospels became relevant for me in my life. i was 12 at the time. of course the first time moment i heard about it all with Jesus and sin, but the idea of "Father" grabbed my attention more than Jesus did at the moment i descided to be in this faith. it made it more easier to accept those things about Jesus when "God" was described as "abba"/daddy that i could look up to.

the reasons why i have remained in this faith is entirely and worlds apart different with the reasons tho.
 
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glo1

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Well stated. I became a Christian in response to what God was doing in my life at the time. I came to a point where I sincerely wanted to have a relationship with my Creator and began to seek who He was. As I continued in my seeking, I came to believe (and I believe that this was the result of God revealing Himself to me) that God is knowable in the person of Jesus Christ. It was only after I came to the point that I started to become aware of all of the reasons that faith in Christ is completely reasonable and rational.

But, without the relationship and the life change that occurred as a result of that relationship, I don't know if anyone could have convinced using only arguments based on reason.
You said it better than me, Dies3l! :thumbsup:

glo
 
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DarkProphet

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But, if I may, I would like to pick up on the above comments.
I am speaking from my own experience only, and other may disagree or have different experiences - but my beliefs in Jesus are almost entirely outside the 'rational realm'.

There is much (but not everything) in Christian teaching that I find rewarding, beneficial and inspiring. So if you are looking for consistent and justified doctrine, you will probably find it - but on it's own it is likely not to be enough to 'make you a Christian'.
If you look, you will find helpful teaching and doctrine in all manner of other religions/faiths/worldviews too ...

There is much (although sometimes not much at all!) in the behaviour and attitude of Christians around me, which I find helpful, uplifting and inspiring. You will find those kind of people - but again, you will find them outside Christianity too ...

So you admit that all that is not unique to Christianity... not all Christians will admit that.

What I am trying to say is that it cannot just be doctrine and believers' behaviours alone, which make you seek Christ.
God himself does that! Through his Spirit, through situations, through stirring things up inside you ...
Perhaps that is the reason why many people seem to come to Christ in times of crisis, heartache and trouble ... that's when they are more receptive to the idea and influence of God.

People are receptive to a lot of things when they are emotionally weak so this not something I would point out when trying to make Christianity look good.

Many people do believe this, and I, too, think it's silly. I think that, whatever "salvation" is on a spiritual level, (even in the Bible, there is really no explanation of what, exactly, Jesus accomplished in the ressurection or the mechanics of how it affects the world), it is Christ who saves people, and not themselves. I do not believe that a person can save himself by believing the right things. That's why I focus on the social side of salvation--trying to restore the world by following Christ's teachings, rather than the spiritual side.

If more people did that then I would have no problem with Christianity (although I still wouldn't believe).

It seems to me that DarkProphet may (or may not) be considering the Christina faith on a purely rational basis.
If the doctrine can be proven to be sound and justified, it may be a religion worth exploring ...

Perhaps there are people who become Christians on those grounds. To me personally it is an alien concept. :scratch:

Choosing to follow Christ is not like choosing your political party or joining a local club - it's about entering into a relationship with God, and having an inner desire to do so and to remain so.

I would be interested to hear about others' reasons for becoming a Christian ... because this is the only one I know ... :scratch:

It would seem that it is true that no one comes to Christianity on any sort of rational bases. To me this is abhorrent because reason is one of the few things that separates us from the animals and if you don't use it in such a life altering decision...
In any case so far the doctrine has not proven to be sound or justified so it is not a religion worth exploring but I must anyway because of the negative impact Christians have the ability to make in my life.

Well stated. I became a Christian in response to what God was doing in my life at the time. I came to a point where I sincerely wanted to have a relationship with my Creator and began to seek who He was. As I continued in my seeking, I came to believe (and I believe that this was the result of God revealing Himself to me) that God is knowable in the person of Jesus Christ. It was only after I came to the point that I started to become aware of all of the reasons that faith in Christ is completely reasonable and rational.

But, without the relationship and the life change that occurred as a result of that relationship, I don't know if anyone could have convinced using only arguments based on reason.

How did God reveal himself to you? Christians say that but they are always so vague about it.
 
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dies-l

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How did God reveal himself to you? Christians say that but they are always so vague about it.

I suppose that the reason so many Christians are vague about it is because so often God's revelation is a deeply personal experience and often something that is difficult to describe in terms that are easy to understand by someone who has not experienced it. Perhaps the best way for me to explain is to share a bit of my own story:

I rejected Christianity in my late teen years, largely a result of choices that I had made that I couldn't justify in light of my Christian upbringing, but also because I found Christianity to be intellectually empty and unsatisfying. I continued to make some really crappy choices, got involved in a bad marriage, and found myself even more miserable than before. I began to look to religion and philosophy (mainly Buddhism and other forms of eastern philosophy) to try find what I felt missing in my life. Also, during this period, I used alcohol, drugs, and inappropriate contentography to try to fill the void. Eventually, I reached a point where suicide began to seem like such a real possibility that I was constantly trying to figure out the most painless and foolproof way to go about it (and I had figured it out, but lacked the "courage" to follow through, but I am sure that, in time alcohol would have supplied the "courage."). So, I ended up in counseling, which led me into rehab, which left me trying to get sober. About eight months later, I relapsed and hit another emotional low.

Having reached a point in my life of genuine agnosticism, I decided to try something I hadn't tried before, something that, at the time, struck me as somewhat insane: I tried to talk to this Godthing that so many people seemed to have faith in. I admitted to "it" that I didn't really believe in "it", but if "it" would help me to get my life in order, I would be willing to have faith. Within days, I felt a change: What had, up to that point, had seemed like such a burden (to be happy and sober) suddenly seemed like a possibility for me. Even more, I felt like I was not alone in all of this. So, I began to accept, with the faintest flicker of faith, that God cared and would help me with this. At the same time, I was struck with a desire to know more deeply who this God was. Eventually, I became aware of this quiet voice inside me, encouraging me to try new things and to talk to people who seemed to have things together and who seemed to know who God was.

At an AA retreat, I was encouraged to seek out a church of my choice, and I ended up in a Methodist Church that I had been dragged to as a teenager. As I was attending that Church, through the message and through the Scriptures, I began to hear God identifying Himself. In learning about Jesus, I, for the first time, began to understand that God was identifying Himself through the life, teachings, death, and resurrection of Christ.

Now, I realize that in just hearing this story, you are likely to ask me how I knew that this was God speaking to me through all of this, or worse yet you might wonder if I had a little insanity going on in my life through all of this. And, all I can really say to answer that challenge is that, as a result of everything that happened during that period, my life is better: I have not had a drink in over 3 years, I have been free from drugs even longer, and I have been free from inappropriate content for over two years now. Even more, I am content with life (a new feeling for me), my life is far more productive (I will be finishing law school in 3 weeks), I have meaningful relationships in my life (another relatively new thing for me), and I have joy. And, with all of this, I find myself much more open-minded and willing to consider all of the evidence. With this attitude, I have not seen anything that has even suggested to me that faith in Christ is irrational or unreasonable. If anything, the evidence for me seems to point to the opposite conclusion.

Now, the one weakness in all of this, the reason I don't think I could argue you into believing as I believe (even if I wanted to) is that so much of what I have come to understand and believe was a result of feeling broken beyond repair, being willing to look beyond the temporal for the solution, and finally listening to that still, small voice that expresses itself in different ways for different people.
 
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DarkProphet

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Now, I realize that in just hearing this story, you are likely to ask me how I knew that this was God speaking to me through all of this, or worse yet you might wonder if I had a little insanity going on in my life through all of this. And, all I can really say to answer that challenge is that, as a result of everything that happened during that period, my life is better: I have not had a drink in over 3 years, I have been free from drugs even longer, and I have been free from inappropriate content for over two years now. Even more, I am content with life (a new feeling for me), my life is far more productive (I will be finishing law school in 3 weeks), I have meaningful relationships in my life (another relatively new thing for me), and I have joy.

So you attribute that to a higher power rather then to your own will?

With this attitude, I have not seen anything that has even suggested to me that faith in Christ is irrational or unreasonable. If anything, the evidence for me seems to point to the opposite conclusion.

You mean now that you have a vested interest in Christianity being correct.

Now, the one weakness in all of this, the reason I don't think I could argue you into believing as I believe (even if I wanted to) is that so much of what I have come to understand and believe was a result of feeling broken beyond repair, being willing to look beyond the temporal for the solution, and finally listening to that still, small voice that expresses itself in different ways for different people.

I suppose this is one key difference. I have not hit "rock bottom" or anything of that nature, I live a rather mundane life. I suppose this is why so many televangelists are former drunks.
 
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Toney

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To be perfectly honest my goal here is to have a better understanding of Christianity... This is why I ask why you believe in Christ because it seems counterintuitive to be a Christian-Humanist.

If one is a secular humanist, I quite agree.

On the other hand, if one is a religious humanist, one might also be a Christian-Humanist.

Emotional experience, as well as reason, separates us from the animals. You could posit that Christianity was an attempt by First Century Jews to explain powerful emotional and spiritual experiences reasonably. That's tough.

For my soul, secular humanism is a little too logical, a little too chilly.
 
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dies-l

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So you attribute that to a higher power rather then to your own will?

All I can say is that I spent much of my life trying to accomplish such things according to my own will, and it never worked. When I asked for help, things changed. So, I suppose I would be a bit hesitant to attribute it all to my own will.



You mean now that you have a vested interest in Christianity being correct.

I suppose that is one way to say it. Of course, if it turns out I am wrong, my sincere belief in Christianity isn't going to mean much. Another way to look at it is this: We all all make certain assumptions about the world, based on faith. Reason comes in to play, not in terms of what assumptions we start with, but in helping us to determine whether these assumptions are reasonable. If we accept an assumption on faith that runs contrary to reason, we should abandon that assumption. But, it is impossible to really come to know anything if we are unwilling to accept an assumption on faith, with the understanding that we should abandon that assumption if it turns out to be unreasonable. Christian belief is one set of assumptions that one cannot completely accept on reason alone, but once one has accepted those assumptions, one should not be afraid to subject those assumptions to reason and rationality.


I suppose this is one key difference. I have not hit "rock bottom" or anything of that nature, I live a rather mundane life. I suppose this is why so many televangelists are former drunks.

That's how it worked for me. Different Christians have different stories, but for people that are as stubborn as I am, I suppose sometimes it is necessary to hit some sort of bottom (though it's not always the same for everyone). In reality, the bottom that one needs to hit is only the realization that there is something more to life than what he or she is currently experiencing and a sincere desire to live life more fully.

And, I don't know about televangelists, but, there are many great pastors who came from some rough places in life (e.g., drugs, alcohol, other addictions), but there are also many great teachers in the faith who have had rather mundane lives.
 
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seebs

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It would seem that it is true that no one comes to Christianity on any sort of rational bases.

I don't think that's quite accurate.

There is, of necessity, an irrational component to any choice of paradigm.

You can make a rational decision about your strategies for evaluating paradigms. In my case, I have argumentation that leads me to conclude that Christianity is the most reasonable option on the table.
 
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Im_A

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I don't think that's quite accurate.

There is, of necessity, an irrational component to any choice of paradigm.

You can make a rational decision about your strategies for evaluating paradigms. In my case, I have argumentation that leads me to conclude that Christianity is the most reasonable option on the table.
great stuff Seebs.
 
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Toney

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Well, the OP was an invitation to present an argument for conversion (yours) to Christianity.

It suggested that old ideas should be reexamined.

I was just wondering if, after all was said, you gleaned anything from the thread that helped toward that end.

A number of Scholars: Crossan, Spong, Fox, Friedman, Armstrong, et al believe that Biblical literalism and much of Christian tradition are bankrupt. Fox and Spong argue for a new reformation.

The Sunday School version of Christianity that holds sway at CF is just plain silly to a number of WWMC members. I think Seebs is on the right track -- Christian icons and WWMC are intellectually incompatible given the broader context of CF and its Medieval definition of "Christian."
 
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seebs

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CF's vision of "Christianity" is not medieval. It's modern. It's absolutely unthinkable in terms of the theology of anyone before the Industrial Revolution.

In the medieval period, it was absolutely obvious that Christians should provide housing and food to the unwanted. Advocating such a thought, today, is grounds for a careful scrutiny of your theology, on the off chance that you've got an extra i in homoousia, and are therefore due to have your badge removed.
 
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DarkProphet

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Well, the OP was an invitation to present an argument for conversion (yours) to Christianity.

I don't think anyone actually did but to be fair it's no ones obligation to do so.

It suggested that old ideas should be reexamined.

I was just wondering if, after all was said, you gleaned anything from the thread that helped toward that end.

Actually, if anything, this time at CF has left me feeling that I am a better person in general by not being a Christian. There are many reasons for this but it boils down to two main points. Mling's post (#9) is a touching story but he correctly points out a conflict of interest in Christian morality. If you do something moral as Christian then you have Christian forces driving you to that thing but are you truly are moral person if the reasons behind your actions are things like getting into heaven? The other point is that mainstream Christianity breeds ignorance. While this might not be true with liberal Christianity the core tenets of all Christianity hold that faith is a virtue. That is something that I just cannot accept. Let me put it this way, if it came down to a choice between salvation and enlightenment I would choose the latter.

A number of Scholars: Crossan, Spong, Fox, Friedman, Armstrong, et al believe that Biblical literalism and much of Christian tradition are bankrupt. Fox and Spong argue for a new reformation.

The Sunday School version of Christianity that holds sway at CF is just plain silly to a number of WWMC members. I think Seebs is on the right track -- Christian icons and WWMC are intellectually incompatible given the broader context of CF and its Medieval definition of "Christian."

Liberal Christianity is essentially a watering down of Christian tradition. This removes many of the less desirable elements of Christianity but carries it's own problems. For one thing you must reconcile your liberal viewpoint with what the Bible actually says, and those two things are very different. In any case no matter how much you water it down it will still carry the core problems of being Christianity.
 
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seebs

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DP, I think you are gravely mistaken.

Liberal Christians are not watering down the Christian tradition; they are living it seriously.

Modern Biblical literalism is a modern invention; it's not tradition, it's a fad of the last couple of centuries.

Don't mistake "different" for "the same, only not as serious". In particular, don't let people trick you into thinking that 0th-century Hebrews wrote from the same perspective as 20th-century textbook authors.

I am generally described as a "liberal", and I have no trouble at all with what the Bible actually says. However, "what it says" is not always "what the words would mean if they had been intended as literal fact claims".

Here is what the Bible says:

The Gospel According to St. Matthew, Chapter 25, Verses 31-46

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​

This is liberal Christianity in its purest form; no tests of theology, no debates about the Trinity, no arguments over whether a given kind of sex is sin. Just get out there and love some neighbors, and do it so they know they've been loved.

That's liberal Christianity, and it's not a watered-down anything.
 
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Toney

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Liberal Christianity is essentially a watering down of Christian tradition. This removes many of the less desirable elements of Christianity but carries it's own problems. For one thing you must reconcile your liberal viewpoint with what the Bible actually says, and those two things are very different. In any case no matter how much you water it down it will still carry the core problems of being Christianity.

Thanks for your reply, DP.

I had never thought of liberal Christianity as being watered down Christianity, but your point is well taken. A successful re-mythologization of the Christian epic will no doubt be antithical to the literal Bible, basis of the current mythology.
 
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Toney

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CF's vision of "Christianity" is not medieval. It's modern. It's absolutely unthinkable in terms of the theology of anyone before the Industrial Revolution.

Well, I don't know about that.

I loosely employed medieval as meaning antiquated.

I probably would not romanticize feudalism in the Middle Ages. True Christian charity existed in the Church prior to the medieval period. Feudalism required that the peasantry looked to the lords for charity. Church sponsored charity then declined. Well before the Industrial Revolution charity was mostly state sponsored, another form of enslavement.

CF defines a Christian not in terms of commitment to brotherly love but commitment to an antiquated belief system. Why, that's positively medieval.
 
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seebs

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Arguably so, but the belief system in question is post-medieval. It lacks the medieval willingness to accept metaphorical and symbolic meanings.

It does, to be fair, reflect the medieval problems with the absorption of temporal power into the church, with the corrupting effects you'd expect.
 
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FLANDIDLYANDERS

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And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


This is liberal Christianity in its purest form; no tests of theology, no debates about the Trinity, no arguments over whether a given kind of sex is sin. Just get out there and love some neighbors, and do it so they know they've been loved.

Ironically the very quote you provide contains an aspect of traditional Christian Theology that is most abhorrent to most of us "Liberals", ie. Eternal Hell.

I agree with you entirely, Seebs, and fr me the inclusion of Hel-references in this story from Jesus reflects more the attitudes of his audience at the time and the brevity of what he was trying to get them to realise. The good works do not please God, they change our hearts and get us living as we should.

But still, you brought a smile to my face referencing such a blatant pro-eternal-punishment passage!!
 
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Izdaari Eristikon

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CF's vision of "Christianity" is not medieval. It's modern. It's absolutely unthinkable in terms of the theology of anyone before the Industrial Revolution.

In the medieval period, it was absolutely obvious that Christians should provide housing and food to the unwanted. Advocating such a thought, today, is grounds for a careful scrutiny of your theology, on the off chance that you've got an extra i in homoousia, and are therefore due to have your badge removed.
You're right, as Christians we ought to "provide housing and food to the unwanted". But the idea that we ought to implore the government to do so on our behalf, so we no longer are personally responsible for it, is also a modern idea, one that is almost unheard of before the industrial revolution. Mind you, I'm not suggesting you support that idea (maybe you do and maybe you don't, I have no idea), but many people do.

P.S.: But Toney is correct about the feudal lords being expected to provide charity in the medieval period. That's something I'd forgotten about. So, modern political (not theological) liberalism is in that way a throwback to feudalism? Hmm, interesting.
 
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