Best type of government

I think the best form of government is a normacratic/adoptive republic with checks. That is because it allows certain politicians to make decisions based on experience without leading to corruption because of the checks instead of just doing what is "popular". That would insure that our ploticians learned more about history and less about polls.

The government would erive its authority from common norms like that of honesty, life,tolerance etc. It wouldn't be as simple as just deciding on certain norms though as some norms have an effect on others, for example if people value peace as a norm, then one could not make a religious norm because that would create too much conflict. However a nomr like "do not murder" would be acceptable.

The government would also use the epistemic norm of reason to decide on truth claims and method of examination of other norms.

Now I know someone will say "but who decides these norms" In whort nobody does, they are just a part of our nature, the only thing decided is what norms will be sanctioned/enforced.

But someone else might say "well only norms that are popular/powerful willbe followed". To which one can point to democracy as the ultimate expression of popularity made law. And the fact that someone had to decide on the contstitution. In short all governments are implicitly normacratic, the only difference is the one I'm proposing would be explicitly normancratic. Also that when one starts down the path in which all values are a matter of opinion so normacracy won't work, one has to bear in mind that democracy won't improve matters. In democracy is just a normacracy where majority opinion or decision rules. The major flaw I see in democracy though is that the majority in any given field tends to be more ignorant then specialists.

If one does admit norms are not totally arbitrary though and admits some are more core or common then others, and some are more felxible/variable/weaker/based in falsehoods. Then one can admit that value based issues can be decided by a sort of value based reasoning.

Of course there will be a constitution that is somewhat flexible, in which certain norms are estbalished as core or primary. Norms I suppose like the most basic, honesty, tolerance,freedom,happiness. Though the constitution can change though it would take a consensus between different branches, and could not be changed by lets say, one radical/quack politician. There would be necessary safeguards like "if anyone tries to end religious/philosophical freedom they will be subject to immediate recall".

So what's you take on this and what's do you believe is the best kind of government?
 

LightBearer

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When Jesus was on earth, he told his followers to pray for God’s Kingdom: “Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.” (Matthew 6:9, 10) He also spoke constantly about “the good news of the kingdom.” (Matthew 4:23) In fact, he spoke more about the Kingdom than he did about anything else. Why? Because the Kingdom is the instrument that God will use to solve the problems that make life so difficult today. By means of the Kingdom, God will soon put an end to wars, hunger, disease, crime, death and he will bring about unity and peace. What human government can achieve all that. The best government therefore is, Theocracy under the Kingdom of God in the hands of Christ Jesus.
 
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wildernesse

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LightBearer:

Do you think that Jesus was talking about an institutionalized government being the Kingdom of God? Didn't Jesus say that the Kingdom of God is within us (believers)?

I think that the kind of government that Jesus is talking about is one of government of individuals of and by themselves--through the kingdom of God within us, we make the changes that bring about peace and unity, and end wars, hunger, disease, etc. Not an institutionalized theocracy.

--tibac
 
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LightBearer

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I have heard that said before but that Idea is based on poor translations. What Jesus actually said was “But on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them and said: “The kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness, 21 neither will people be saying, ‘See here!’ or, ‘There!’ For, look! the kingdom of God is in YOUR midst.”" Luke 17:20-21

Jesus, as King designate of the Kingdom was amongst them, so he could say as the Kingdoms foremost representative that the Kingdom was there amongst them.
 
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wildernesse

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Where do you get your translation of the verse that you quoted? So you do think that God wants an institutionalized theocracy?

Where does this place "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. . ."? Does this apply only to taxes in the Roman empire or to any government that a Christian is under?


--tibac
 
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LightBearer

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Originally posted by wildernesse
Where do you get your translation of the verse that you quoted?

If as you say Jesus meant the kingdom is within you then that would not agree with the context.  He clearly said and meant "in your midst".

Lets assume you are correct and that Jesus said and meant "the kindom is within you"  Who is Jesus speaking to.  Luke 17: 20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the Kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said" (KJ)Yes, it is the Pharisees, whom Jesus called "sons of the devil and hypocrites.  Surly he wasn't telling those hypocrites that the kindom of God was in their hearts. 

Therefore "the Kingdom of God is in your Midst or amongst you" is the correct understanding.

The Emphatic Diaglott translates it very well when it reads.  "God's royal majesty is among you".
 
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wildernesse

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So the verse you quoted is from the Emphatic Diaglott? Is there a link for that site?

What are you doing to bring about the institutionalized theocracy that is the best form of government? Is there anything you can do? I'm assuming that is your idea because you did not answer any of my other questions.
 
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LightBearer

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I have used three traslations to highlight what Jesus meant at Luke 17: 20,21. In answer to the question you first raised about the Kingdom being Inside us.

Em-D
NW
KJ

In fact you can use any translation available to you.

What conclusion have you come to about the scriptures quoted from your translation and the context as to the meaning. Did Jesus mean Inside or in our midst.
 
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wildernesse

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The reason I asked about the translation, is because you said that my (mis)understanding was based on a poor translation. Then you quoted me a verse, which I assumed was the "good" translation--except you didn't tell me what the translation was. Now you say that it doesn't matter what translation I use after all.

Is it possible that you meant that my idea was based on a poor interpretation?

When I looked up Luke 17 on Biblegateway, in the NASB version, I see this event:

Ten Lepers Cleansed

11 While He was (11) on the way to Jerusalem, (12) He was passing between Samaria and Galilee.
12 As He entered a village, ten leprous men who (13) stood at a distance met Him;
13 and they raised their voices, saying, "Jesus, (14) Master, have mercy on us!"
14 When He saw them, He said to them, "(15) Go and show yourselves to the priests." And as they were going, they were cleansed.
15 Now one of them, when he saw that he had been healed, turned back, (16) glorifying God with a loud voice,
16 and he fell on his face at His feet, giving thanks to Him. And he was a (17) Samaritan.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, "Were there not ten cleansed? But the nine--where are they?
18 "Was no one found who returned to (18) give glory to God, except this foreigner?"
19 And He said to him, "Stand up and go; (19) your faith [1] has made you well."
20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees (20) as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with (21) signs to be observed;
21 nor will (22) they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

So, the conclusion that I draw is that Jesus cleansed some lepers, one returned to glorify him and was saved--Pharisees had been asking when the kingdom of God was coming and Jesus answered them saying that the kingdom of God was in their midst--around them in the worship and praise to God and in the healing. Not in them, but surrounding them through the events that have occurred through God's power. And that we create God's kingdom as we Christians move through life doing his will through the power he has given us through the Holy Spirit.

Jesus also says that it is difficult for the rich to enter into the kingdom of God and that it belongs to those who can become like children. That we can't enter it with out being born again and by water and the Spirit. That we should go about proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God.

What would that good news of the kingdom be? That God wants to be reunited with us and loves us--and that through submission to him, we learn how best to live and love and create what his will should be for humanity. So that His will is done on earth, like in heaven.

I think that the God's earthly kingdom will be made of individuals working in God's will--and will be a theocracy of those involved--after all, all believers are really part of a theocracy when they give God the lead in their lives. I don't believe that this kingdom is an institutionlized government like the governments we see today, but a self-government.

Lightbearer, do you think that your idea of theocracy will be an earthly government? If you knew of a country that's government was set up as a theocracy glorifying Christ, would you move there? If you wouldn't why not? What do you think that this government would be like? What kind of interaction would this government have with the rest of the world? What would happen if one of the members of that nation became a non-believer? Would this government be a worldwide government?

I tried to answer your question based on my thoughts at this time, will you attempt to answer mine? Thanks.

--tibac
 
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LightBearer

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Very well observed.

Jesus was in fact by his healing and other miracles demonstrating on a minor scale what he would do earthwide when he came into his Kingdom or Government.

Does the Bible actually speak of God’s Kingdom as being a government?
Isa. 9:6, 7, RS: “To us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government [also KJ, AT, Dy; “dominion,” JB, NE; “princely rule,” NW] will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called ‘Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.’ Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end.”

Who are the rulers in the Kingdom?
Rev. 15:3: “Great and wonderful are your works, Jehovah God, the Almighty. Righteous and true are your ways, King of eternity.”

Dan. 7:13, 14: “With the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man [Jesus Christ;][Mark 14:61, 62] happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days [God] he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him [to Jesus Christ] there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.”

Rev. 5:9, 10: “You [Jesus Christ] were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”


What effect will this Kingdom have on human governments?
Dan. 2:44: “
In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite.”

Ps. 2:8, 9: “Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance and the ends of the earth as your own possession. You will break them with an iron scepter, as though a potter’s vessel you will dash them to pieces.”

What will God’s Kingdom accomplish?
Sanctify Jehovah’s name and uphold his sovereignty
Matt. 6:9, 10:
“You must pray, then, this way: ‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come.’” (Here the sanctifying of God’s name is closely associated with the coming of his Kingdom.)

Ezek. 38:23: “I shall certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah.” (God’s name will be cleansed of all reproach; it will be treated as holy and deserving of respect, and all who live will be persons who willingly uphold Jehovah’s sovereignty, delighting to do his will. Upon such sanctification of Jehovah’s name the peace and well-being of all the universe depend.)

Put an end to Satan’s tolerated rulership over the world
Rev. 20:2, 3:
“He [the heavenly King, Jesus Christ] seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After these things he must be let loose for a little while.” (Thus mankind will be freed from the satanic influence that has made life very difficult for people who want to do what is right. Gone will be the diabolic influence that has caused acts of extreme inhumanity and the demonic influence that has filled the lives of many with fear.)

Unify all creation in worship of the one true God
Rev. 5:13; 15:3, 4:
“And every creature that is in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, I heard saying: ‘To the One sitting on the throne [God] and to the Lamb [Jesus Christ] be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.’” “Great and wonderful are your works, Jehovah God, the Almighty. Righteous and true are your ways, King of eternity. Who will not really fear you, Jehovah, and glorify your name, because you alone are loyal? For all the nations will come and worship before you, because your righteous decrees have been made manifest.”

Bring mankind back into harmonious relationship with God
Rom. 8:19-21: “The eager expectation of the creation [humankind] is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God [the evidence that those raised to heavenly life with Jesus Christ have gone into action as rulers]. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself [mankind in general] also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.”

Free mankind from all threat of war
Ps. 46:8, 9: “Come, you people, behold the activities of Jehovah, how he has set astonishing events on the earth. He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth.”

Isa. 2:4: “They will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.”

Rid the earth of corrupt rulers and oppression
Ps. 110:5: “Jehovah himself at your right hand will certainly break kings to pieces on the day of his anger.”

Ps. 72:12-14: “He [Jehovah’s Messianic King] will deliver the poor one crying for help, also the afflicted one and whoever has no helper. He will feel sorry for the lowly one and the poor one, and the souls of the poor ones he will save. From oppression and from violence he will redeem their soul, and their blood will be precious in his eyes.”

Provide an abundance of food for all mankind
Ps. 72:16: “There will come to be plenty of grain on the earth; on the top of the mountains there will be an overflow.”

Remove sickness and disabilities of all kinds
Luke 7:22; 9:11: “Go your way, report to John what you saw and heard: the blind are receiving sight, the lame are walking, the lepers are being cleansed and the deaf are hearing, the dead are being raised up, the poor are being told the good news.” “He [Jesus Christ] received them kindly and began to speak to them about the kingdom of God, and he healed those needing a cure.” (Thus Jesus demonstrated what he as heavenly King will do for mankind.)

Provide suitable homes for everyone
Isa. 65:21, 22: “They will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat their fruitage. They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating.”

Assure satisfying employment for all
Isa. 65:23: “They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance; because they are the offspring made up of the blessed ones of Jehovah, and their descendants with them.”

Guarantee security, freedom from danger to one’s person or property
Mic. 4:4: “They will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making them tremble; for the very mouth of Jehovah of armies has spoken it.”

Ps. 37:10, 11: “Just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; and you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.”

Cause righteousness and justice to prevail
2 Pet. 3:13:
“There are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.”

Isa. 11:3-5: “He [the Messianic King] will not judge by any mere appearance to his eyes, nor reprove simply according to the thing heard by his ears. And with righteousness he must judge the lowly ones, and with uprightness he must give reproof in behalf of the meek ones of the earth. . . . And righteousness must prove to be the belt of his hips, and faithfulness the belt of his loins.”

Safeguard mankind from any injury due to natural forces
Mark 4:37-41: “Now a great violent windstorm broke out, and the waves kept dashing into the boat, so that the boat was close to being swamped. . . . With that he [Jesus] roused himself and rebuked the wind and said to the sea: ‘Hush! Be quiet!’ And the wind abated, and a great calm set in. . . . But they felt an unusual fear, and they would say to one another: ‘Who really is this, because even the wind and the sea obey him?’” (Thus Christ demonstrated the power that he as heavenly King will exercise over such natural elements.)

Resurrect the dead
John 5:28, 29: “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice [the voice of Christ the King] and come out.”

Rev. 20:12: “I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds [those done following their resurrection; compare Romans 6:7].”

Remove all death due to inheritance of Adamic sin
Isa. 25:8:
“He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces.”

Rev. 21:4: “He will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

Provide a world in which people genuinely love one another
John 13:35: “By this all will know that you are my disciples [hence, in line to be Jesus’ associates in the heavenly Kingdom or earthly subjects of that Kingdom], if you have love among yourselves.”

Bring animals and humans into harmonious relationship with one another
Isa. 11:6-9: “The wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain.” (Also Isaiah 65:25)

Hos. 2:18: “For them I shall certainly conclude a covenant in that day in connection with the wild beast of the field and with the flying creature of the heavens and the creeping thing of the ground, . . . and I will make them lie down in security.”

Make the earth a paradise
Luke 23:43: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”

Ps. 98:7-9: “Let the sea thunder and that which fills it, the productive land and those dwelling in it. Let the rivers themselves clap their hands; all together let the very mountains cry out joyfully before Jehovah, for he has come to judge the earth. He will judge the productive land with righteousness and the peoples with uprightness.”  Compare Genesis 1:28; 2:15; Isaiah 55:11.

Only a real government could accomplish all this.
 
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wildernesse

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Lightbearer;

I think that we will have to end up agreeing to disagree on this--because I think we can use the same verses and come to a different interpretation/conclusion. I appreciate all the work you put into your last post.

I think the difference between our views is that you believe that the perfect government will be the one that God establishes in the creation of the new heaven and earth. I agree that the government God establishes is perfect, but I think that it is at work today in the life of every believer. I doubt that either of us will change our minds/convictions about our ideas regarding the kingdom of God and all of the implications of it, especially not in conversation on a message board! But I have enjoyed learning about your ideas in regards to this topic.

To get back to the first topic of this thread (although I can't say that I minded our little detour), what kind of earthly government do you think is best? Do you have an opinion on that, or do you think that earthly government is something that believers shouldn't bother with a whole lot?

What is your opinion about the OP's "normative republic" or what not? I think that it's kind of confusing to tell what DM is talking about--maybe you (DM) should tell us what you think is wrong with governments of today and then work around to how your best government would deal with it. That way we could see your thoughts a little more clearly--or at least that would help me some.

I think that the best type of government is one that is representative of the people it governs and is governed by the people. One that allows freedom and respects all of its constituents. I think you could have several kinds of governments with different institutions based on my idea, and all would be valid.

--tibac
 
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LightBearer

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I think all human attempts at Government have failed miserably. As King Solomon said at Ecclesiastes 8:9 9 “All this I have seen, and there was an applying of my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, [during] the time that man has dominated man to his injury.

Man was never designed to rule over man. God was and is our rightfull ruler and knows what's best for us. Human governments have been a very very poor substitute.

Man has tried every form of government I can think of and yet not one has been able to satisfy all the needs of all the poeple.  Only true Theocracy will be able to do this.

Since Jesus said we should be no part of the world I have very little interest in politics. I await what Jesus taught his followers to pray for for the last 2000 years, Let your (God's) Kingdom come. It clearly hadn't come therefore in his day but from Bible prophecy it is clear that the rulership of this world is about to change for the better, much much better.

Regards,

LightBearer.
 
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wildernesse

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You don't think that Christians should work for just laws? Isn't that an extension of doing good for all?

Do you think that civil rights leaders should have been content to serve God without working toward being considered equally? I noticed that the Emphatic Diaglott is supported by Jehovah's Witnesses--they have quite a record of working towards religious freedom through the courts--is this too much interaction with the world?   Are you saying that because man cannot have a perfect government, we shouldn't even strive for a perfect government?

I think that as Christians, we should show God's love for others through a championing of what is fair and right in the world--this neccessitates an active role in the politics of today.

--tibac
 
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LightBearer

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I appreciate your comments and i can see where your coming from.

Jesus set the example for christians today 1 Peter 2:21 “In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely”. Jehovah's Witnesses follow Jesus example. He was primarily known as "teacher" even though he was known as a miracle worker. His first concern was for the spiritual needs of the people although he cared for the physical needs too. He didn't get sidetracked by politics or campaigns but was single minded in accomplishing the purpose for which he was sent, which included teaching about the kindom of God.

Since the Bible clearly indicates that this corrupted world system we live in is passing away, and is at enmity with God, to work politicaly for it's betterment would be like bailing out on the Titanic and contrary to God's command not to be freinds with it.  God does not want it changed he wants it removed. 1 John 2:15-17. James 4:4. What christians should do is help individuals jump ship before it goes down. By educating them about the incoming Kingdom Government so that they can make an informed decision to become subjects of it. This government is the panacea for all mankinds ills and will in one term of office undo all the unjust harm that has ever been done throughout human history.

This is the government that Jehovah's Witnesses campaign for on a daily basis.

Promoting God's Kingdom, teaching and helping people to live in harmony with it requirments as good subjects is the finest way to promote good and just laws.  Jehovah's Witnesses in many lands are considered exemplary citizens because they uphold God's standards of morality as taught in the Bible.

Personel freedoms when infringed and effect a persons right to worship are good and proper causes to legally defend against.  The apostle Paul did the same thing.  Acts 16:37-40; 25:11,12.
 
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Hi,
personally, I think that you are pretty close. Rom. 13 seperates the two governments of USA. Both are to be seperate according to the Master's New Testament plan. Christs people as converted, use [all] 10 commandments, (see 2 Cor. 3:3) while Caesar is to keep his 'paws' out of the first table. (first four) This is why USA has been blessed of God. (soon we may see from Lamblike, too dragonlike?)

The Word for Covenant & Gospel, in the New Testament, to remember is that of {EVERLASTING} (Both! Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20) The ORDER of the 'church' (fold-denomination) is as given by Christ! & is MANDATORY. See Matt. 16:18-19 & Matt. 17:17-18.

As in Israels past history, so went the last Virgin Folds future. (is now past/tense) Rev. 3:16-17 & verse 9. (see Rev. 2:5 & Rev. 1:20) Yet, out of this 1 Peter 4:17's judgement comes the last UNITED DENOMINATIONAL FOLD. (notice the word UNITED-try Rom. 8:14)

After this will come the final testing of mankind. The Mark of the Beast. Try Ex. 16:4-5 &27-28 & verse 35 tells of their planned destination. (OURS too?)
OK: I am done if you will believe Eccl. 1:9-10 & the Master's Word in Eccl. 3:15 :) If it does not repeat? Then He tells us so, as: 'sin WILL NOT ARISE A SECOND TIME' (Na. 1:9) & of course we remember the rainbow, for assurence of no more world floods? P/N/B/

PS: What does it take to warn the world of 666? Try Matt. 10:23 s-l-o-w-l-y.
Remember that Christ was already there when speaking! And REMEMBER both of these held the same doctrines, yet the TRUE FOLD was [seperated]! See Matt. 25:6. 'NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN', GOD SAID!


*****
Originally posted by wildernesse
The reason I asked about the translation, is because you said that my (mis)understanding was based on a poor translation. Then you quoted me a verse, which I assumed was the "good" translation--except you didn't tell me what the translation was. Now you say that it doesn't matter what translation I use after all.

Is it possible that you meant that my idea was based on a poor interpretation?

When I looked up Luke 17 on Biblegateway, in the NASB version, I see this event:

Ten Lepers Cleansed

11 While He was (11) on the way to Jerusalem, (12) He was passing between Samaria and Galilee.
12 As He entered a village, ten leprous men who (13) stood at a distance met Him;
13 and they raised their voices, saying, "Jesus, (14) Master, have mercy on us!"
14 When He saw them, He said to them, "(15) Go and show yourselves to the priests." And as they were going, they were cleansed.
15 Now one of them, when he saw that he had been healed, turned back, (16) glorifying God with a loud voice,
16 and he fell on his face at His feet, giving thanks to Him. And he was a (17) Samaritan.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, "Were there not ten cleansed? But the nine--where are they?
18 "Was no one found who returned to (18) give glory to God, except this foreigner?"
19 And He said to him, "Stand up and go; (19) your faith [1] has made you well."
20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees (20) as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with (21) signs to be observed;
21 nor will (22) they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

So, the conclusion that I draw is that Jesus cleansed some lepers, one returned to glorify him and was saved--Pharisees had been asking when the kingdom of God was coming and Jesus answered them saying that the kingdom of God was in their midst--around them in the worship and praise to God and in the healing. Not in them, but surrounding them through the events that have occurred through God's power. And that we create God's kingdom as we Christians move through life doing his will through the power he has given us through the Holy Spirit.

Jesus also says that it is difficult for the rich to enter into the kingdom of God and that it belongs to those who can become like children. That we can't enter it with out being born again and by water and the Spirit. That we should go about proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God.

What would that good news of the kingdom be? That God wants to be reunited with us and loves us--and that through submission to him, we learn how best to live and love and create what his will should be for humanity. So that His will is done on earth, like in heaven.

I think that the God's earthly kingdom will be made of individuals working in God's will--and will be a theocracy of those involved--after all, all believers are really part of a theocracy when they give God the lead in their lives. I don't believe that this kingdom is an institutionlized government like the governments we see today, but a self-government.

Lightbearer, do you think that your idea of theocracy will be an earthly government? If you knew of a country that's government was set up as a theocracy glorifying Christ, would you move there? If you wouldn't why not? What do you think that this government would be like? What kind of interaction would this government have with the rest of the world? What would happen if one of the members of that nation became a non-believer? Would this government be a worldwide government?

I tried to answer your question based on my thoughts at this time, will you attempt to answer mine? Thanks.

--tibac
 
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wildernesse

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Lightbearer:

I think that in the end, we would probably behave in the same manner in regards to a situation of injustice in our communities--we would just have slightly different reasons for doing so. Well, I take that back--I think our reasons would be the same but our means of reaching those reasons are different.

And I probably shouldn't have used the word politics--because I don't think that Christians should be caught up in the power-hungry control and pettiness that most of today's politics are. But I do think that we should be active in our government--by voting and holding our leaders to high standards, through active support of issues that matter (like the free practice of religion). I don't work for the "world"'s betterment--I try and think about the people (who God loves) who inhabit this world and try to show them the love that God has graciously shown me--by trying to make their lives a little better. Maybe it will make them wonder why I try, and they will learn of my faith that way.

I've enjoyed our conversation, Lightbearer, and I'm glad that we can discuss important things without getting too heated. I think talking with people who don't believe the same thing that you do helps you understand more what you do believe--and it helps you understand where other people are coming from and learn to respect their position. I don't necessarily agree with your exact reasoning, but I can respect your position--and I hope you can respect mine.

--tibac
 
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\o/

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World Ideologies (Referencing Cows)
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cow.gif


Feudalism
You have two cows. Your lord takes some of the milk.

Pure Socialism
You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows. You have to take care of all the cows. The government gives you all the milk you need.

Bureaucratic Socialism
Your cows are cared for by ex-chicken farmers. You have to take care of the chickens the government took from the chicken farmers. The government gives you as much milk and eggs the regulations say you should need.

Fascism
You have two cows. The government takes both, hires you to take care of them, and sells you the milk.

Pure Communism
You have two cows. Your neighbors help you take care of them, and you all share the milk.

Real World Communism
You share two cows with your neighbors. You and your neighbors bicker about who has the most "ability" and who has the most "need". Meanwhile, no one works, no one gets any milk, and the cows drop dead of starvation.

Russian Communism
You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the government takes all the milk. You steal back as much milk as you can and sell it on the black market.

Perestroika
You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the Mafia takes all the milk. You steal back as much milk as you can and sell it on the "free" market.

Cambodian Communism
You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you.

Militarianism
You have two cows. The government takes both and drafts you.

Totalitarianism
You have two cows. The government takes them and denies they ever existed. Milk is banned.
Pure Democracy
You have two cows. Your neighbors decide who gets the milk.

Representative Democracy
You have two cows. Your neighbors pick someone to tell you who gets the milk.

British Democracy
You have two cows. You feed them sheeps' brains and they go mad. The government doesn't do anything.
Bureaucracy
You have two cows. At first the government regulates what you can feed them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you not to milk them. Then it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the missing cows.

Pure Anarchy
You have two cows. Either you sell the milk at a fair price or your neighbors try to take the cows and kill you.

Pure Capitalism
You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.

Capitalism
You don't have any cows. The bank will not lend you money to buy cows, because you don't have any cows to put up as collateral.

Enviromentalism
You have two cows. The government bans you from milking or killing them.
Political Correctness
You are associated with (the concept of "ownership" is a symbol of the phallo centric, war mongering, intolerant past) two differently - aged (but no less valuable to society) bovines of non-specified gender.
 
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