For the last time.

Angelwarrioress

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Here is my struggle. My dad is mentally ill and used the bible to control my brothers and I and to to destroy my mom's life. She took it out on me by beating me and telling me I should die. It almost completely destroyed my life , did destroy my brothers as he took his life. It also is affecting my now 15 year old brother. I hated God and would rather adhere to being an atheist and have science explain everything. However, I almost died a bunch of times and my life was going no where fast. I am finally just starting to establish a true relationship with Jesus for the first time in my life and I am trying to pull my brothers out of the situation before it costs them their lives. My life is far better now that I am healing my pain through Jesus's love. I am still a sinner and still have a lot of bad qualities to rid myself of. My brother has chosen to be an atheist, he is anger ridden like I was and is destroying his life, just like I did. So I guess what I am searching for is answers, because I just want to know the truth. All I know is that since I have had Jesus my life is better than it has ever been. I guess I am just trying to understand atheists, so I can understand my brother more and learn. I do want people trying to convert me as I am very fragile and I am finally making progress for myself and my brothers. My life finally has purpose. I think what I need to do is just some books on evolution and atheism and go from there.
 

Angelwarrioress

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I'm glad to hear that your life is looking up, and that you've found something that makes you happy. But are you only looking for books on evolution? I'm sure a quick search on amazon will lead you to many.
I am trying to understand my brother's outlook in order to be able to relate to him.
 
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grimbly

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Sorry to hear about the turmoil in your life, but I think you are conflating two issues here. As others will tell you, acceptance of real science is not the same as atheism. In fact, I would dare say that a vast majority of evolutionists (I hate that term) on this board are Christians. Some may have even attended Christian schools like myself that teach evolution as a significant part of their Biology curriculum. It's not an either/or proposition. Nor does acceptance of evolution and the great antiquity of our planet and universe preclude the belief in God. Heck, probably the most religious course I ever took was Biochemistry! :o

I am afraid that studying evolution (which is a great thing to do, IMO) will not give you the answers you're looking for. Just my 2 cents.
 
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fromdownunder

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I am trying to understand my brother's outlook in order to be able to relate to him.
I know grimbly said it first, but atheism has nothing to do with evolution.

I was an atheist for a full 20 years before I started taking a serious interest in evolutionary biology. I am not trying to sound rude here, but I think that you are looking in the wrong shop, and should take this to another forum.

Norm
 
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Angelwarrioress

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I know grimbly said it first, but atheism has nothing to do with evolution.

I was an atheist for a full 20 years before I started taking a serious interest in evolutionary biology. I am not trying to sound rude here, but I think that you are looking in the wrong shop, and should take this to another forum.

Norm
You are right, just thought I would find some answers. I will look elsewhere.
 
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Nithavela

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Hm... I'm sorry to hear that, but I think you are really doing it wrong. If you really want to reach out to your brother, an emotional appeal would be far far more convincing then any try to argument your brother into believing in Jesus, especially in the fields of evolution.

I have no right to talk about your situation as I don't know much about it, but let met tell you that I am pretty sure evolution or the debunking of evolution won't help you here. Also, your faith and your conviction won't help you either if your brother decides for himself not to believe in God. You might even damage your relationship to him as he might think you are trying to "bully him into faith". If he is anger-ridden he needs love, not someone who tries to talk him into faith. If you give that to him, maybe over time he will see this issue with different eyes. But please understand that if he doesn't, it's his decision.
 
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RecentConvert

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Along the same vein as another poster who suggested you watch a short Kenneth Miller video on YouTube, I would suggest watching the longer one. I'm too new to post an actual link but here's the URL:

youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg

If nothing else, you might enjoy seeing this talk on evolution prefaced by a prayer. He also maligns the Intelligent Design movement and for good reason.


However, all this is beside the point. I'm sorry for what you have had to go through. I have had a similarly hard life. My abuse didn't last as long 'cause, on the recommendation of a state psychiatrist, I was relocated from parental care to a group home. Of course, from there, I've had a whole new set of problems to overcome but it's fair to say that my life is fine, now.

I don't know your brother at all but I'd be surprised if an "understanding" of atheism were to help your relationship with your brother. You make it sound as if he's an atheist out of sheer angst inspired nihilism rather than a reasoned position. If you want to help him then all I can suggest is that you make sure he knows how much you love him and how much you care about his life. This will hopefully keep him alive long enough to fix his life. Unfortunately, the rest has to really be done by him. He must decide, for himself, that life is worth living; that the life he wants to live is worth working towards...

Have you considered having your brother live with you or is that not possible?

Well, I hope things work out for you and your family. I also hope you learn to critically analyse arguments. At least we can help you with that, here. Judging from your posts, I would say that you are badly misguided but that's another, less important, topic...
 
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Oncedeceived

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Here is my struggle. My dad is mentally ill and used the bible to control my brothers and I and to to destroy my mom's life. She took it out on me by beating me and telling me I should die. It almost completely destroyed my life , did destroy my brothers as he took his life. It also is affecting my now 15 year old brother. I hated God and would rather adhere to being an atheist and have science explain everything. However, I almost died a bunch of times and my life was going no where fast. I am finally just starting to establish a true relationship with Jesus for the first time in my life and I am trying to pull my brothers out of the situation before it costs them their lives. My life is far better now that I am healing my pain through Jesus's love. I am still a sinner and still have a lot of bad qualities to rid myself of. My brother has chosen to be an atheist, he is anger ridden like I was and is destroying his life, just like I did. So I guess what I am searching for is answers, because I just want to know the truth. All I know is that since I have had Jesus my life is better than it has ever been. I guess I am just trying to understand atheists, so I can understand my brother more and learn. I do want people trying to convert me as I am very fragile and I am finally making progress for myself and my brothers. My life finally has purpose. I think what I need to do is just some books on evolution and atheism and go from there.

I am sorry for your pain. Mental illness is a very complex issue. The fact that your father used the Bible and God as a tool against his family would cause anyone serious issues with both. I am not in the mental heath profession so I can't claim any expertise on your problem but I can perhaps give you my opinions about the issues you have provided here.

First of all, I see some very important undertones to your post. On one hand you are saying that Jesus is making your life better yet on the other you say that you are very fragile in your faith. Coming to a forum that has a high percentage of atheists for answers seems like a subtle desire to be "persuaded" that your newly founded faith is lacking in reason. That you want to "know the truth" is telling as well. I get the feeling that you are in some way not certain that what you are experiencing is truly Jesus/God and you are still reaching out to the world rather than taking Him on His word. Which is not surprising considering your back round. Truth is real, so is Jesus but until you give Him yourself fully you will probably have a hard road yet. My advice to you is this: Take time with Jesus, read the Bible everyday for yourself and ask God to bring you understanding of what you have been through and understanding of His love and comfort. You must heal yourself and be certain yourself before you could in anyway help your brother. IF you truly search and find that Jesus is the answer you will find that your life will be a testament to his and for your brother.
 
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I do want people trying to convert me as I am very fragile and I am finally making progress for myself and my brothers. My life finally has purpose. I think what I need to do is just some books on evolution and atheism and go from there.


If you are really interested in atheism, read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins.

If you are interested in seeing how accepting evolution can be consistent with Christianity, read "Finding Darwin's God" by Kenneth Miller. He's a biologist at Brown University and a Catholic.
 
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Dannager

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Angelwarrioress gets my vote for creationist of the month, because in every one of her threads, despite starting out with some incorrect assumptions was actually open to correction. You have no idea how wonderful it is to get someone in here who isn't simply on a rampage against evolution, and who is willing to learn!

I had some very wrong first impressions of you, Angelwarrioress, and you deserve my sincerest apologies for imagining you to be anything but honest and sincere.
 
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MrGoodBytes

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Angelwarrioress gets my vote for creationist of the month, because in every one of her threads, despite starting out with some incorrect assumptions was actually open to correction. You have no idea how wonderful it is to get someone in here who isn't simply on a rampage against evolution, and who is willing to learn!

I had some very wrong first impressions of you, Angelwarrioress, and you deserve my sincerest apologies for imagining you to be anything but honest and sincere.
Seconded. Despite her initial confusion of Christian Forums and IRC ;), her willingness to be corrected and her desire to learn really makes her someone special.
 
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CACTUSJACKmankin

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I am trying to understand my brother's outlook in order to be able to relate to him.
If you want to go to a forum with atheists, go to a skeptics forum. A MUCH higher proportion of skeptics are non-believers than evolutionists. The best one is probably the JREF forums at http://forums.randi.org/.
 
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FishFace

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If you are really interested in atheism, read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins.

I've not read the book, but from what I've read and heard, I would be wary of reading that if you're not ready for it. Dawkins doesn't pull his punches - he's not afraid of titling a book "The God Delusion" to start with, and his other material can be similar in tone. (Not insulting, but he is frank in his beliefs to the point of possibly offending some people)
He can also (depending on how you look at it) be, or come across as, quite arrogant. I wouldn't want anyone to read Dawkins and either be offended, or potentially make decisions about atheism based on the demeanour of one of its prominent persons.

Nonetheless, I would agree with much of what Dawkins has to say, so if you feel up to what I've described, Angelwarrioress, go for it! Do be warned that he's not one of the scientists who subscribes to the "Science and Theology cover completely different fields, therefore there can be no competition." He's more in the camp of "Theology makes truth claims about the world, therefore must adhere to certain standards of rationality (including those put out be science) if it is itself to be considered rational. It doesn't, therefore theology is in contradiction with science."
 
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Pesto

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I am trying to understand my brother's outlook in order to be able to relate to him.
I don't know that trying to understand atheism is going to help you relate to your brother. His anger and other issues are a direct result of the abuse both of you suffered as children. His atheism is probably just reactionary, because his abusers used belief in God as a weapon against him.

Definately do everything you can to help him, but don't try and steer him down the same path you took. You may have found peace through Christianity, but please don't take that to mean that you must make him a Christian if he, too, is to sort out his life. He does need your support, but that support needs to be unconditional. However he finds peace, it will have to be on his terms, so let it be on his terms.
 
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thaumaturgy

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I guess I am just trying to understand atheists, so I can understand my brother more and learn. I do want people trying to convert me as I am very fragile and I am finally making progress for myself and my brothers. My life finally has purpose. I think what I need to do is just some books on evolution and atheism and go from there.

Understandable. You've obviously suffered and found something that works for you. Good for you.

For me, while I didn't suffer like this I grew up in a stable, fairly functional family who was not overly religious. I was raised middle-of-the road Methodist in central U.S. But I suffer from OCD (have all my life) and I was pretty dang sure that while I didn't like the idea of the strict task-master God of the Evangelicals, that if God did exist he wanted specific things and wanted them his way.

To that end I lived in constant fear of hell and damnation. Not an easy thing. No amount of assurance that Jesus loved me, I knew there was something I had to do to get it right. NOT because I wanted to go to Heaven so much as I wanted to avoid hell.

And all I had to do was love Jesus with all my heart and soul. That's it!

But like an absentee landlord I never "felt" Jesus, never really felt like I could love a concept that didn't have any reality to me whatsoever. Sure I had good days and felt love for my girlfriend and thought "Hmm, maybe this is what God is. Maybe the bumperstickers are right! God is love!" But then I realized it was love for my girlfriend I was feeling.

The more I started to investigate my "faith" the more I realized it was a tiny corner in a vast universe of competing "ideas", many of which were mutually exclusive.

After about 35 years, thinking almost non-stop about religion, reading the Bible cover to cover (sans apocrypha), surviving a 6 month period in undergrad where I came very close to suicide and never once felt God's reassuring hand on my shoulder (except as a reminder that in some religions suicide means a one-way ticket to hell--and even that experience didn't destroy my faith, it was 20 years later that I looked at atheism). Finally I deconverted.

It was the most liberating feeling I've felt in a long time. It works for me. But it doesn't require that I take on any new, unsupportable ideas, but rather jettison those ideas that not only didn't do me any good, but in some cases actually made my life a living misery.

I would never want anyone to become an atheist based on what I say. I like discussing religion, but if anyone listens to me without questioning it then I'm sad. I'm a fool, just like everyone else. Personally I like atheism, it makes my life livable.

I'm still a "moral" person, I work with a campaign to get equal access to healthcare in California, I donate to charities (secular, when possible), I try to be a good husband, and I stop at all traffic lights.

Personally I believe that religion never stopped someone from committing an evil they really wanted to commit and atheism never kept someone from doing a good deed, and of course, vice-versa.

All of this being said, evolution and old-earth geology played not one WHIT in the decision. It was a non-entity in my thought process.

Science, however, helped me gain a handle on how to process the INFORMATION around me. It taught me to question and be a better skeptic. In that end it is a TOOL for living, not a hammer for destroying religion for me.

I doubt that your brother who is angry is angry because he's an atheist. He obviously suffered as you did, this is his response to a seemingly uncaring world. That's what humanism is for. We need to realize that it isn't God who reaches in to help the beaten by the side of the road, but the samaritan HUMAN who walks by.

Hope that explains just one atheist's veiwpoint.
 
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