Predestined-Election

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Ben johnson

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Dear all: The other thread was closed; but I think the last post is worthy of answers. So I would like to start a new thread, based on that post, directed to "those-who-believe-in-Predestined-Election" (PE).

The applicable "forum rule", is:
1) You will not post any messages that harrass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself.

Yesterday I indulged in a little sarcasm---in asking the same questions over and over, I did not recieve real answers. And so many times the retort is something like, "Well YOU believe in WORKS". Or "I would HATE to live in fear like YOU do". I patiently explain that we do NOT believe in "salvation-by-works", and there is NO fear in "OSNAS" (once-saved-not-always-saved)---and yet the same accusations ("works" and "fear") are levied again and again and again; hence the frustration and exasperation. There is one reason, and one reason only that I personally persist in debates such as these---this cuts to the heart of the nature of our salvation---how could something dealing with our ESSENCE, not be important? The purpose is to teach, and to learn. To build and not destroy. The intent it that each participant emerge better Scripturally taught, better armed to deal with life.

Let's make this our motto: "Preach the Word; be ready in season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but ...will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside to myths. But YOU, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry." 2Tim4:2-5

I use terms like, "gum-flapping-hyperbole" with distinction---some people, in holding to preconcieved theology, seek to reject clear warnings by saying, "It's just FATHERLY ADVICE, just BUG-BEAR, negative-rhetorical-hypothetical---the writer doesn't really believe it CAN happen". Hence the term, "gum-flapping-hyperbole". "Gum-flapping", because if what they say can NOT happen, then why say it? Simply "flapping their gums for no reason". "Hyperbole", as in the Webster Dictionary definition: "exageration for effect, not to be taken literally". But I think the warnings are to be taken literally.

In the following post I ask some questions---please pretend they have never been asked before, and simply answer them. These questions cut to the heart of the difference between "Predestined-Election", and "Responsible Grace" (to which I, and all "OSNAS" believers, hold).

So, the post from the other thread, sarcasm removed...

Probably? CHOSEN? You said you didn't believe in the doctrine of election. And not that you diddn't understand it, but you were going to refute it. But now you use it as part of your answer.
Do you believe the Iraelites were "CHOSEN/ELECT"---so that you believe that every last one of them are bound for Heaven, and will not / can not / have not, been "lost"? Even those who reject Jesus, they're still Heaven-bound? Or do you understand that "chosen-people" were invited, and because they refused the invitation they became unchosen (individually). I rather think you understand that "they failed because they pursued it by works rather than by faith"---entirely, voluntary.
We write post after post on this thread and countless others showing in context how you are wrong about how we lose salvation since true believers cannot lose it.
I think you have just eloquently made my point for me. Think about what you just said---"We ...show how you are wrong ...since true believers cannot lose it". What if assertions are proven by assumption, rather than by Scripture? For instance, if I believed "true believers cannot lose salvation", and THAT became my foundation, then I would be inclined to say "the ONTOS-APOPHUEGO-TRULY-ESCAPED through the EPIGNOSIS-SAVED-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST were never ACTUALLY saved".

My question to you, is "what IS your foundation"? Is it assumption? Or is it Scripture? If Scripture, then please (no dodging or ignoring), answer just a few simple questions:

1. How are the,

"ONTOS-APOPHUEGO-TRULY-ESCAPED through the EPIGNOSIS-SAVED-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST",

...in 2Pet1, REALLY SAVED, but the,

"ONTOS-APOPHUEGO-TRULY-ESCAPED through the EPIGNOSIS-SAVED-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST"

...in chapter 2 are NOT saved? How? On what basis can the same exact words, change meaning (especially in the same letter, by the same writer)? Isn't the CHANGE, clear evidence of presumption rather than pure doctrine?

2. How do people "wander from the truth" in James 5:19-20, but-they-WERE-NEVER-saved (in the FIRST place)? Or if they WERE saved, how were they never UNSAVED if John uses "THANATOS"?

3. What did Paul mean by "the Spirit expressly says that many will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"? (Don't use 1Jn2:19---those were specific "antichrists among us"; 1Tim4:1 is followed by 4:16. Paul says first "many will be deceived and fall", then in the same chapter Paul says "pay close attention to yourself and your teachings to save yourself and your listeners". If you insist on using 1Jn2:19 in response, then you must also answer 2Jn1:6-9: "You should walk in His commandments; many deceivers are there, so watch yourselves that you do not lose what you have accomplished; for anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ has not God"---Clearly this warning was to those who might "go out from them"---were these "walking-in-truth-children" never-really-saved? Or is John simply warning that if we do not abide in Christ then we lose REWARDS but not HEAVEN? Or is this simply "gum-flapping", hyperbole, it-can't-REALLY-happen?)

If Paul says "may will fall by deceit" so "pay close attention and persevere to save yourself", if John says "walk in His commandments, beware of deceivers and antichrists, watch yourselves that you do not go too far and not abide in Christ's teachings so as to NOT HAVE GOD", why do you believe Paul and John held "OSAS"? Why is "election" Scriptural rather than presumption? (No dodging this time, actually answer the question---pretend you have never answered it before, do so for the sakes of those-who-are-reading-this-for-the-first-time)

4. Why does Peter say: "be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS" (2:3:17-18)? Did Peter REALLY believe we COULD NOT fall? If so, then why does Peter say "make certain of your calling and election, watch yourselves as to what qualities you exhibit, that you not be blind short-sighted and forgotten purification from former sins, for in THIS way the EISODOS-GATE-OF-HEAVEN will be provided to you" (1:4-11---you cannot say "they were never saved"---they are ESCAPED, they are "of the SAME FAITH as PETER")? If Peter said "make sure of your election, do not forget your purification from former sins, do not "stumble-PTAIO-BECOME-WRETCHED", how then did Peter believe "predestined-election"?

5. What did Paul mean when he said, "if we endure we shall reign, if we deny Him He will deny us; if we are faithless He remains faithful"? (2Tim2:11-13) If we deny Him will we still go to Heaven? Can the faithless be SAVED? Is this more "gum-flapping-hyperbole"? Why does Paul follow this with, "remind them, solemnly charge them not to wrangle about words which is useless and leads to ruin; be diligent to present yourselves approved ...handling accurately the word of truth, avoid worldly and empty chatter, like Hymenaeus and Philetus who have GONE ASTRAY from the truth and upset the faith of some"? If "the Lord knows who are His" (vs 19), why does this support "election" rather than "voluntary belief" (especially when followed by "let everyone who names the name of the Lord abstain from wickednes"---if we are elected, would we not AUTOMATICALLY abstain?)? No you can't say "GOD will CHANGE us so that we WILL abstain"---this is a DIRECTIVE TO ABSTAIN---if it was AUTOMATIC then why WRITE it? More gum-flapping-hyperbole?)

Objectively, does Paul consider that "not-enduring" or "upset-from-faith" is possible here?

Simple questions, to those who hold "PE". Please answer them. Pretend you have not answered them before, do not "avoid them", do not "dodge them", just answer them. If you do not, then your credibility is gone.

If you (PE believers) have similar, pointed questions for me (or other RG believers), I (we) will be happy to answer them. Ecstatic. Joyful. Outrageously pleased. Et cetera...

;)
 

Blackhawk

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We are predestined and we are the elect.  That is plain in the Bible.  There is no refuting that we are predestined and elected unless you disbelieve what the Bible says. 

 The real question is what does "predestined" and what does being in the "elect" mean?  Can we be be part of the elect and then not part of the elect?  if we lose our salvation weer we never part of the elect in the 1st place?  Are we prdestined because God foreknew that we were going to believe?  Are we predestined without a real choice by us?  These are the sort of qestions that can be raised and there are many more but " Is there predestination?" and "Are we part of the elect?" are not two of the questions we can debate on because it is clear from the Bible that we are predestined and we are part of the elect. 

 Here are some verses to show that we are the predestined and are part of the elect.

WE are part of the elect.

Matt 24:22
22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
(NAU)

Rom 8:33
33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
(NAU)

Luke 18:7
7 now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
(NAU)

Matt 24:31
31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
(NAU)

We are predestined

Rom 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
(NAU)

1 Cor 2:7
7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden {wisdom} which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
(NAU)

Eph 1:2-11
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed {be} the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly {places} in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, {that is}  the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
(NAU)

 
 
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Ben johnson

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Blackhawk, thank you for your excellent post. I agree, we are "predestined" and we are "elect". Yet, Peter warns us to "make certain of our calling and election". The following questions pose themselves:

Does God call ONLY THOSE HE HAS CHOSEN? Or does He call EVERYONE? If He calls EVERYONE, but only whom He has CHOSEN can be SAVED, are the rest called insincerely?

What is the meaning of "predestination"? Does Scripture say, "predestined to SALVATION"? Or does Scripture say, "those who ARE SAVED, are predestined to become CHRISTLIKE"?

Romans 8: "Those whom He FOREKNEW, He predestined to become COFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF CHRIST".

1Cor2:7 Were WE predestined? Or was JESUS predestined?

(the "hidden mystery", the wisdom, is "Christ in you"---Col1:26-27)

Eph1:4 We were "chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world". Is this "CHOSEN", unilaterally by God? Or are we chosen-from-the-beginning-for-salvation-through-belief?

Eph1:5 "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the kind intention of His will"...
Are we predestined-to-salvation by DECREE? Or is "the kind intention of the will of God", JESUS, that "whosoever believes/receives/abides/is-born-again", shall live? Which verses use "boulema" (decree) and which verses use "thelema"(desire) ?

The constant question(s) in "predestination", is:

CAN everyone be saved? Is our salvation decreed by God, or desired? Do we believe by ourselves, or is our belief/faith-unto-salvation sculpted, determined, machinated by God?

Does Scripture answer this?

Last question---if specific passages are pointedly questioned, and "PE" proponents who enthusiastically previously-participated in discussions, now decline to answer, what should we believe this silence means?

Even if things have been answered in the past, some of us have bad memories, and besides there are plenty of "lurkers" here who have NOT read our previous discussions.

Does the Bible actually answer the question of "Predestined-Election or Responsible Grace"?

:)
 
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Reformationist

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Hi Ben.  You have, as usual, started a very controverserial, though thorough, thread on a topic in which proponants on both sides never seem to even consider, much less be swayed by the opposition's point of view.  I applaud your efforts.  I am, however, a little confused as to what you are asking.  This is probably due to your superior intellect.

I'll try to address the questions you state in the first post.

1. There are numerous different places in the Bible where words like "the world," and "all" are relayed to the reader by using the exact same words however, the meaning is clearly different in different instances.  Additionally, we must take into account that Scripture, while divinely inspired, was man's effort to relay the things of God.  When we read accounts of God seemingly repenting of His actions, or weeping as if not understanding the process of events He, Himself, has put in to action, are we to assume that God is caught in a tidal wave of His own making without the ability to control the events of His own Providence?  There is a straight literal approach to Scripture, that you seem to take, that flies in the face of context and obvious reality that, in my opinion, creates doubt about the omnipotence and sovereignty of the Creator.

2. To imply that "wandering from the Truth" succinctly means that one must first be living "by the Truth" is, in my opinion, a gross misinterpretation riddled with preconceived notions as to the immutability of God.

3. You assume that "falling away" refers to those who are saved or that it means the loss of salvation.  I do not see those points made in the passages you note.

4. Again, you make the implication that "to fall" implies a loss of salvation rather than a "falling into sin."  I don't agree.

5. Many questions here.  I'll address "Can the faithless be SAVED?"  My answer to this is very simple.  ALL who are saved were "faithless" when they were saved.  It is that very changing of their nature that instilled in them the faith to live according to God's Word and the admonishment to continue in that faith relates to obedience, not salvation.

Last answer, directed to this question, "if specific passages are pointedly questioned, and "PE" proponents who enthusiastically <I>previously-participated in discussions,</I> now decline to answer, what should we believe this silence means?"

I would suggest that you refer to these previous discussions and take note of the result.&nbsp; The truth is, no knowledge or discernment of God's Word is possible without God's Divine providence.&nbsp; Therefore, those who are Christians should share the Gospel and leave the enlightenment up to God.&nbsp; It is not our power to reason, nor our desire to learn that is the definitive mark in gaining a greater insight to God's Will.&nbsp; Only God can give us that understanding.

God bless.
 
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Received

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God's view of time and ours are completely paradoxial when we attempt to indoctrinate them.&nbsp; The one who finds predestination scriptural is one who should be quite trusting to who God is.&nbsp; If this is not the case, then you find a good amount of confusion.&nbsp; Let this be the first statement: God is fair.&nbsp; One calvinist put it this way: "The elect are the whosoever wills, the lost are the whosoever won'ts".&nbsp; C.S. Lewis said that it is impossible to know eternal reality by definition, as we are not in eternity.&nbsp; God created man upright, but they sought out many schemes (Ecclesiastes 7:29), that is, they rebelled.&nbsp; Because of this, not everyone will be saved, as our nature is sinful.&nbsp; However, God does not predestine all of us with this in mind.&nbsp; Romans 8:29,30 would make little sense if this were the case.&nbsp;

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son...Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified"

Using this formula, if God called everyone then everyone would be saved.&nbsp; This is clearly not scriptural.&nbsp; Revelation 20 and the lake of fire would be contradiction.&nbsp; Did God plan this all along, that some would be saved and others wouldn't?&nbsp; According to His perspective, certainly!&nbsp; But to ours, it is a mystery.&nbsp; Everything He does beyond our grasp of time He does fairly, showing no partiality to anyone.&nbsp;

Predestined election and responsible grace are hand in hand.&nbsp; From our perspective it&nbsp;seems like a choice, but to God it is anything but. He knows who are His, and He will find them out.&nbsp; This entire question is simply beyond our grasp.&nbsp; He does not predestine according to random decree, but He does so sovereignly, which is beyond our knowledge.&nbsp; He also is omniscient, which means He knows every man from beginning to end before he takes action on earth.&nbsp; We are predestined not because He wants us to be lacking of choice, far from it.&nbsp; But we are predestined that everything will be in order, that Joe Shmo will not save me, but the power of God through Him.&nbsp; If one is too lazy to preach, is it fair that one is&nbsp;lost because of this?&nbsp;

Overall, the aspect of time and how it flows is beyond us when we have one who is Lord over us who knows this better than us.&nbsp; Unconditional/conditional election is a paradox.&nbsp; We must trust.&nbsp;

blessings,

John
 
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Miss Shelby

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Sorry miss, yes I have, why don't you check threads of the past

I've read every word you've posted Louis, and (big surprise)-- I don't agree with you. :)

But I do kind of like you. In spite of myself.&nbsp; And only because you participated in my resurrection thread when no one else did. :)

Michelle
 
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Ben johnson

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John, as your "handle" here proclaims, salvation is received. I copied your post to a word-processor so that I could read it---on this laptop, the small font makes it nearly illegible.
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son...Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified"...

Using this formula, if God called everyone then everyone would be saved. This is clearly not scriptural.
He certainly calls those who are saved, those whom He foreknew; but does this passage say the call is EXCLUSIVE? No. If God ALSO calls those who WILL not be saved, then there is no contradction.

Consider John 6:44: "No one comes to the Father unless the Father who sent Me HELKUO-DRAGS-DRAWS him, and I will raise him up on the last day." Now consider John12:32, "If I be lifted up, I will HELKUO-DRAG-DRAW all men to Myself".

There is no verse in Scripture that presents God's calling as selective. What do you think was the point of the parable of Matt22? The closing verse says, "for MANY are CALLED but FEW are CHOSEN". Is it not clear that there are CALLED who are not CHOSEN? We were "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" (Eph1:4), but "we were chosen from the beginning for salvation through OUR OWN FAITH" (2Thess2:13). In the parable of Matt22, only those who ANSWERED the call (they CAME), AND clothed themselves with righteousness, only THESE became the CHOSEN.
1. There are numerous different places in the Bible where words like "the world," and "all" are relayed to the reader by using the exact same words however, the meaning is clearly different in different instances. Additionally, we must take into account that Scripture, while divinely inspired, was man's effort to relay the things of God. When we read accounts of God seemingly repenting of His actions, or weeping as if not understanding the process of events He, Himself, has put in to action, are we to assume that God is caught in a tidal wave of His own making without the ability to control the events of His own Providence? There is a straight literal approach to Scripture, that you seem to take, that flies in the face of context and obvious reality that, in my opinion, creates doubt about the omnipotence and sovereignty of the Creator.
I think the whole thing is covered nicely in Romans 5:17-18: "For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more to those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to PAS ANTHROPOS all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to PAS ANTHROPOS all men." Do you see? Those who receive the grace and the gift of righteousness will reign through Christ. Just as Adam's sin imparted condemnation to every-Human, so too Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross resulted justification to every-Human. You might contend "WORLD doesn't really mean EVERYONE" elsewhere, but not here. He equates condemnation to everyone, he likewise equates justification to everyone. (Of COURSE Paul understood that the justification was validated by BELIEF, not EVERYONE will be justified---as I said, the passage sums it up nicely: "...to those who RECEIVE the gift of righteousness and the grace...")

The answer to those who accuse me of "limiting God's sovereignty, can mere man THWART GOD'S WILL (decree)?"---is "What if God WILLS that salvation is granted to "all who WILL BELIEVE"? What of Rev22:17: "Let O THELOS WHOSOEVER WILL take of the water of life FREELY..." ?
2. To imply that "wandering from the Truth" succinctly means that one must first be living "by the Truth" is, in my opinion, a gross misinterpretation riddled with preconceived notions as to the immutability of God.
Then please help me to understand why James writes it as: "Brethren, if any of you..." Do you really believe James was writing to squatters, those were were never saved in the FIRST place? BRETHREN if any of YOU? And I can't imagine how "planao-err" from the "aletheia-truth", and another "epistrepho-turns-him-back" can be understood to be referring to "one-who-was-never-saved"...
3. You assume that "falling away" refers to those who are saved or that it means the loss of salvation. I do not see those points made in the passages you note.
In 1Tim4:1, who was Paul referring to? Do you really think the MANY who FALL AWAY, were only SQATTERS-WHO-WERE-NEVER-SAVED? Or can they "pay attention to decieving spirits and doctrines of demons, and fall-but-STILL-BE-SAVED? What about those in 2Pet2:20-22? Were they NEVER REALLY SAVED (in spite of the usage of "apopheugo-escaped through the epignosis-saved-knowledge-of-JESUS")? Or do they never-really-FALL (in spite of the words "epistrepho-ek-turned-FROM-the-Holy-commandment", and their "last state being WORSE than BEFORE they were saved")?

Which?
5. Many questions here. I'll address "Can the faithless be SAVED?" My answer to this is very simple. ALL who are saved were "faithless" when they were saved. It is that very changing of their nature that instilled in them the faith to live according to God's Word and the admonishment to continue in that faith relates to obedience, not salvation.
Allow me to clarify: "Can one be saved WHILE HE IS FAITHLESS?" Specifically, do you believe 2Tim2:11-13 speaks of "one-who-denies-Christ, he is faithless, but he will still go to Heaven?" Or do you believe this was addressed only to "those-who-were-never-saved"?
I would suggest that you refer to these previous discussions and take note of the result. The truth is, no knowledge or discernment of God's Word is possible without God's Divine providence. Therefore, those who are Christians should share the Gospel and leave the enlightenment up to God. It is not our power to reason, nor our desire to learn that is the definitive mark in gaining a greater insight to God's Will. Only God can give us that understanding.
Touche'.

God bless you too!

:)
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by Ben johnson
Consider John 6:44: "No one comes to the Father unless the Father who sent Me HELKUO-DRAGS-DRAWS him, and I will raise him up on the last day." Now consider John12:32, "If I be lifted up, I will HELKUO-DRAG-DRAW all men to Myself".

See Ben, this is exactly what I was referring to.&nbsp; First you&nbsp;point out that&nbsp;no man&nbsp;can come to the Father except if the Father calls him.&nbsp; Not just calls him, but drags him.&nbsp; Does this imply a willingness to "turn to the Father" of our own accord?&nbsp; Of course not.&nbsp; The reason for this lack of willingness is simple.&nbsp; It goes against our very nature to persue righteousness.&nbsp; Additionally, it is made clear in Rom 3:10-18 the very nature of all men prior to God's regenerative call:

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "There is none righteous, no, not one;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>There is none who understands;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There is NONE WHO SEEKS after God.&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>They have all turned aside;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; They have together become unprofitable;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There is none who does good, no, not one."&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"Their throat is an open tomb;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; With their tongues they have practiced deceit";&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "The poison of asps is under their lips";&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>"Their feet are swift to shed blood;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>Destruction and misery are in their ways;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> </SUP>And the way of peace they have not known."&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP>&nbsp; </SUP>"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Then you go on to point out that Christ says, "If I be lifted up, I will draw (drag) all men to Myself."&nbsp; So the first statement is in direct correlation, and harmony,&nbsp;to Romans 9:16 which says, "So then&nbsp;IT IS NOT OF HIM WHO WILLS, nor of him who runs,&nbsp;BUT OF GOD&nbsp;who shows mercy.&nbsp; Additionally, in v. 11 it is made clear as to the reasoning of God's choosing, "for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God ACCORDING TO ELECTION might stand, not of works but OF HIM WHO CALLS."

So in John 12:32 do you think Christ was referring to the off-chance that "if He be lifted up?"&nbsp; Or was that a certainty?&nbsp; As far as I know, you don't dispute the predestination of Jesus' being the Savior and&nbsp;that event&nbsp;happening exactly as the Father had foreordained.&nbsp; I could be wrong.&nbsp; If I am, please forgive me.&nbsp; Regardless, the point is, He knew He would be lifted up.&nbsp; So let's look at the rest of the sentence, "I will draw all men to Myself."&nbsp; Now, are all men drawn to Christ?&nbsp; Of course not.&nbsp; So, either you think Christ could not accomplish that which He stated, "I will draw all men to Myself," or, He didn't mean all men.&nbsp; Complicate it if you will, but it can only be one of those.

There is no verse in Scripture that presents God's calling as selective.

On the contrary.&nbsp; You point out one very poignant&nbsp;example in your own post:

<SPAN class=NavigationLinks>Matthew 22:14</SPAN>
"For&nbsp;<B>MANY</B> are called, but few are chosen."

Please explain why Christ would say "many" if, in reality He meant "everyone without exception?"&nbsp; For that matter,&nbsp;even if "many"&nbsp;meant everyone what use is that&nbsp;knowledge if being called isn't the deciding factor in whether you are "chosen."&nbsp; It doesn't say, "For many are called, but few accept the call."&nbsp; It says they "are chosen."&nbsp; It seems as you make the inference that they are chosen for a reason.&nbsp; Then you get into territory which makes the claim that, though the Bible says differently, we have earned our salvation and thus it is credited to us based on the merit of that decision.

What do you think was the point of the parable of Matt22?

For the record, I don't disagree that everyone is called to righteousness.&nbsp; However, there is a difference in the type of call.&nbsp; If God has elected you to salvation, the call, either due to the call sent or the&nbsp; nature of the recipient that God has transformed, is efficacious.&nbsp; I believe that there is a general call to righteousness that all men receive.&nbsp; The difference is that had God not changed the very nature of the recipient, the call is not, nor was it intended to be, effectual.&nbsp; That is the case or you imply one of two things:



  • 1. Either God doesn't really care about us individually, or

    2. God does not have the power to bring about His own Will

Either you believe all the things that God, the Creator of all things, does are effectual, or you imply they aren't all effectual.&nbsp; What kind of God is that?&nbsp; Is it a loving God that does not ensure that His children will be swaddled in His loving arms for all eternity?&nbsp; Is it a loving God that loves all of His creations so, so much that He would rather them burn in hell than ensure they be saved?&nbsp; I think not.

The closing verse says, "for MANY are CALLED but FEW are CHOSEN". Is it not clear that there are CALLED who are not CHOSEN?

Exactly as I have said.&nbsp; There is a general call to righteousness, and an effective call to those whose very nature have been changed.&nbsp; Obviously He doesn't change all men's natures else all men would heed that call.

We were "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" (Eph1:4), but "we were chosen from the beginning for salvation through OUR OWN FAITH" (2Thess2:13).

That's absolutely true Ben.&nbsp; There is, however, a HUUUUGE difference between where that saving faith comes from and where you imply that it comes from.&nbsp; That ability to believe and have faith is&nbsp;NOT something that springs up out of&nbsp;the fallen nature of fallen man.&nbsp; It is put there by God.&nbsp; It is not a gift given to all men, else all men would have the ability to credit there salvation&nbsp;to there own decision.&nbsp; Where is the "saved by grace" in that?&nbsp; Oh, let me guess.&nbsp; It was God's grace that gives us the "free-will" right?

In the parable of Matt22, only those who ANSWERED the call (they CAME), AND clothed themselves with righteousness, only THESE became the CHOSEN[.

And why was it that you think some "ANSWERED" that call Ben?&nbsp; Free-Will?&nbsp; Try and consider, though it obviously goes against everything you've ever been taught, that the reason some "answer" that call is because God gives them the ability, the grace to do so and that it isn't about our own fallen ability to put off unrighteousness apart from that grace.

I think the whole thing is covered nicely in Romans 5:17-18: "For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more to those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Receive, huh?&nbsp; So let me get this straight.&nbsp; God, the Creator of all things created, including you, is up there in Heaven hoping and praying and asking you to receive the gift that He is offering?&nbsp; God is hoping and praying and asking that you step out of your fallen nature, which, by the way, encompasses every aspect of the fallen man, and accept His freely, unconditionally offered gift?&nbsp; And He does this with every single person who ever existed?&nbsp; Do I have that right?&nbsp; Couple problems here.&nbsp; First, that vividly paints a picture of some God who sits around hoping and praying and asking a bunch of people to accept His Son as their Savior that He knows won't do so.&nbsp; Not very efficient.&nbsp; Also defeats the whole idea of God's omniscience.&nbsp; What does He do?&nbsp; Ask despite knowing they won't heed the call?&nbsp; Sounds like He's setting Himself up for a bunch of disappointment.&nbsp; Secondly, God, who created you, and supposedly loves you so much, has no way of ensuring that you accept His gift?&nbsp; Not very omnipotent.&nbsp; Lastly, you like to say His gift was "offered" to all men unconditionally right?&nbsp; Hmmm...unconditionally?&nbsp; You don't really mean unconditionally, do you?&nbsp; You mean, no conditions except that you accept His gift.&nbsp; Otherwise all of God's grace, righteousness and&nbsp;the very death of Christ didn't accomplish a single thing for you, except maybe "give you a chance" at being saved.

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to PAS ANTHROPOS all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to PAS ANTHROPOS all men." Do you see? Those who receive the grace and the gift of righteousness will reign through Christ. Just as Adam's sin imparted condemnation to every-Human, so too Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross resulted justification to every-human.

It truly amazes me that someone as intelligent as you could say this with any kind of conviction.&nbsp; Ben, are all men "justified unto life?"&nbsp; The "life" referred to here is the eternal, not&nbsp;the life we live now.&nbsp; The answer is of course not.&nbsp; So, pray tell,&nbsp;when Paul&nbsp;says that&nbsp;Christ's act of righteousness resulted in "justification of life" to "PAS ANTHROPOS all men" and then the obvious reality is that NOT ALL MEN, are "justified of life" do you take that to mean that Paul lied?&nbsp; Or that Jesus just didn't know what He was talking about?&nbsp; Or that Jesus didn't have the power to "justify" the eternal life of "PAS ANTHROPOS all men?"

You might contend "WORLD doesn't really mean EVERYONE" elsewhere, but not here. He equates condemnation to everyone, he likewise equates justification to everyone. (Of COURSE Paul understood that the justification was validated by BELIEF, not EVERYONE will be justified---as I said, the passage sums it up nicely: "...to those who RECEIVE the gift of righteousness and the grace...")

Oh...I see.&nbsp; You are justified NOT BECAUSE OF CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUS ACT,&nbsp;but rather, because you&nbsp;chose to "receive the gift of righeousness and the grace..."&nbsp; Who was it again that you credit with your salvation?&nbsp; God's&nbsp;unconditional grace or your decision to "receive" salvation?&nbsp;

The answer to those who accuse me of "limiting God's sovereignty, can mere man THWART GOD'S WILL (decree)?"---is "What if God WILLS that salvation is granted to "all who WILL BELIEVE"? What of Rev22:17: "Let O THELOS WHOSOEVER WILL take of the water of life FREELY..." ?

By all means, I agree.&nbsp; However, you credit our ability to believe to some fictional remnant of righteousness, or so it seems, that remains in us after the Fall.&nbsp; Don't you understand what the Fall did to the nature of all men, or as you would say, "PAS ANTHROPOS?" ;)
 
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Reformationist

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Then please help me to understand why James writes it as: "Brethren, if any of you..." Do you really believe James was writing to squatters, those were were never saved in the FIRST place? BRETHREN if any of YOU? And I can't imagine how "planao-err" from the "aletheia-truth", and another "epistrepho-turns-him-back" can be understood to be referring to "one-who-was-never-saved"...

Sorry, can you provide the scripture you're referring to.&nbsp; Until then, are you asking me do I think that&nbsp;James', and for that matter everyone of the&nbsp;Apostles', letters were heard by some that were never saved?&nbsp; Absolutely.&nbsp; Also, God redeems His elect as He will.&nbsp; This is obvious by the fact that some are saved young, some older.&nbsp; However, the work, these letters, of the Apostles was&nbsp;the vehicle God used at the time to bring people to a knowledge of Himself.&nbsp; Granted, He had prepared their souls to&nbsp;acknowledge that good news at the appointed time.&nbsp; But, it is, and was, at different times for different people.&nbsp; There definitely were people who heard the message that it had no effect on, nor was it intended to.

In 1Tim4:1, who was Paul referring to? Do you really think the MANY who FALL AWAY, were only SQATTERS-WHO-WERE-NEVER-SAVED? Or can they "pay attention to decieving spirits and doctrines of demons, and fall-but-STILL-BE-SAVED?

Those that "fall away" absolutely can be some people that are saved.&nbsp; I think I made that clear here.&nbsp; However, as I said, with regard to those that are saved that are drawn away by "paying attention to deceiving spirits and doctrines," it is referring to falling into sin, not falling out of salvation.

What about those in 2Pet2:20-22? Were they NEVER REALLY SAVED (in spite of the usage of "apopheugo-escaped through the epignosis-saved-knowledge-of-JESUS")? Or do they never-really-FALL (in spite of the words "epistrepho-ek-turned-FROM-the-Holy-commandment", and their "last state being WORSE than BEFORE they were saved")?

They're not worse with regard to salvation.&nbsp;&nbsp;Their sinfulness is worse because they have that "knowledge of Jesus."&nbsp; They cannot claim ignorance.&nbsp; They&nbsp;know the truth and, despite that knowledge, choose to be disobedient.&nbsp;

Allow me to clarify: "Can one be saved WHILE HE IS FAITHLESS?" Specifically, do you believe 2Tim2:11-13 speaks of "one-who-denies-Christ, he is faithless, but he will still go to Heaven?" Or do you believe this was addressed only to "those-who-were-never-saved"?

As I said, "ALL who are saved were "faithless"&nbsp;WHEN they were saved."&nbsp; Of course I'm talking about regeneration, not sanctification.&nbsp; As far as remaining "faithless" it's a non-issue.&nbsp; I don't believe God regenerates us and then just leaves the "working out of our salvation" to us any more than I believe "our believing" is the basis by which God chose His elect.&nbsp; On the contrary, "IT IS&nbsp;GOD who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13).

Sorry about the length of this post.&nbsp; Your threads always require much thought and study, and therefore, feedback.

As always, it has been a pleasure reading your insightful posts Ben.

God bless.
</DIV>
 
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LouisBooth

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"Are you going to tell me that you've said anything different prior to what you've been saying in the last eight months? "

Yup, I used to go on for pages and pages at a time. Like I said, go check the old posts. Just because you get here doesn't mean the world is just starting ;)
 
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Ben johnson

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Reformationist, you are taking Romans 3, as "theological dictate"---and it is NOT. Paul is referencing Psalms, for EFFECT. Specifically, Psalms 14, and 53. it is a lamentation, David is exagerating. Or do you think Jeremiah 29:13, is a lie? "And you will seek Me, and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart."

It's too late in the night (morning?) to go into depth (again) on Romans 9, but it clearly speaks of salvation not being of works but of grace. "It does not depend on the man who wills or runs but on God who has mercy". When it says God "hardened Pharaoh's heart", you must understand this in context---please read Exodus 9:34-35; do you see? Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart; yet in the very NEXT verse, 10:1, GOD DID IT!!! Which was it, Pharaoh, or God? There is a truism under the "Semetic view", that a person's own actions are often ascribed to God. In reality, Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart, and God HONORED that hardening. I also believe Jacob & Esau were "archetypes", representing a people. This is another discussion...
"I will draw all men to Myself." Now, are all men drawn to Christ?
YES---they absolutely ARE---and this is the whole point of my participation in these discussions. Romans 1 teaches that ALL men have Christ revealed to them, and ALL MEN are without excuse; if God called only SOME, then there most certainly WOULD be an excuse. Why then are some saved, and some are not? Jesus answers that---"You CANNOT hear, because you ...WANT to do the evil desires of your devil-father" (Jn8:43-44).
So, either you think Christ could not accomplish that which He stated, "I will draw all men to Myself," or, He didn't mean all men.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...
It says they "are chosen." It seems as you make the inference that they are chosen for a reason.
Yes they are chosen for a reason---because they BELIEVED ( /received-Christ, /were-born-again, etc). Scripture says that "faith-unto-salvation" comes not from GOD, but from our HEARTS (Rm10:17, 10:10). So then in 2Thess2:13, "God has chosen you from the beginning ...through your faith"
I believe that there is a general call to righteousness that all men receive. The difference is that had God not changed the very nature of the recipient, the call is not, nor was it intended to be, effectual.
Do you really really believe that God can be insincere???
1. Either God doesn't really care about us individually, or

2. God does not have the power to bring about His own Will
3. God's WILL, meaning His DECREE (Greek: "Boulema"), is that He predestined Jesus, that "whosoever BELIEVES will be saved". Do you know which verses use "boulema" (decree), and which ones use "thelema" (desire)? I'll give you a couple of examples:

"The Lord is not slow... but is patient, not willing ("boulomai") that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance". Do you understand? God has not decreed ANY to perish. If we were predestined, then it is GOD who elects, and it is GOD who reprobates, either directly or by indifference. Yet this verse flat contradicts this---if they go to Hell, it is not GOD'S WILL-DECREE!

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1Tim2:3-4 "desires", is "thelo"---to will, desire, wish"...

"For this is the WILL of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life, and I will raise him up the last day." WILL---"thelema", desire. Jn6:40
Either you believe all the things that God, the Creator of all things, does are effectual, or you imply they aren't all effectual. What kind of God is that? Is it a loving God that does not ensure that His children will be swaddled in His loving arms for all eternity? Is it a loving God that loves all of His creations so, so much that He would rather them burn in hell than ensure they be saved? I think not.
But, you just said He calls SOME people INEFFECTUALLY...

;)
Exactly as I have said. There is a general call to righteousness, and an effective call to those whose very nature have been changed. Obviously He doesn't change all men's natures else all men would heed that call.
Actually, He doesn't change ANYONE'S nature, UNTIL that person believes. But in that parable, who do you think did not get invited? First were the PREFERRED people, then everyone off of the streets---the "many called", according to the parable, were EVERYONE!!!

Do you think there were people left out of the invitation?
That ability to believe and have faith is NOT something that springs up out of the fallen nature of fallen man. It is put there by God. It is not a gift given to all men, else all men would have the ability to credit their salvation to their own decision. Where is the "saved by grace" in that? Oh, let me guess. It was God's grace that gives us the "free-will" right?
Please show me where "ability-to-believe" is NOT provided for all men? Faith-to-salvation comes from HEARING---not unilaterally from God.
And why was it that you think some "ANSWERED" that call Ben? Free-Will? Try and consider, though it obviously goes against everything you've ever been taught, that the reason some "answer" that call is because God gives them the ability, the grace to do so and that it isn't about our own fallen ability to put off unrighteousness apart from that grace.
Free will? Yup. I just cited above a quote from Jesus, that "those who don't understand, who cannot hear My voice, that's because they don't WANNA..." If God calls/draws/drags ALL MEN, then each of us has sufficient faith that we MAY believe...
God, the Creator of all things created, including you, is up there in Heaven hoping and praying and asking you to receive the gift that He is offering?
Praying? To whom? Reminds me of a line from the movie, "Oh God"---"...I swear to tell the truth and the whole truth, so help Me, ME." :D But I just gave you Scriptures that DO say "He is patiently waiting, desiring all men to be saved..."
First, that vividly paints a picture of some God who sits around hoping and praying and asking a bunch of people to accept His Son as their Savior that He knows won't do so. Not very efficient. Also defeats the whole idea of God's omniscience. What does He do? Ask despite knowing they won't heed the call? Sounds like He's setting Himself up for a bunch of disappointment. Secondly, God, who created you, and supposedly loves you so much, has no way of ensuring that you accept His gift? Not very omnipotent. Lastly, you like to say His gift was "offered" to all men unconditionally right? Hmmm...unconditionally? You don't really mean unconditionally, do you? You mean, no conditions except that you accept His gift. Otherwise all of God's grace, righteousness and the very death of Christ didn't accomplish a single thing for you, except maybe "give you a chance" at being saved.
Foreknowing, is not fore-DECIDING. For there to be "no excuse", for "justness to exist", men must enter Hell on their own blame. If it is GOD who saves or reprobates, even if it is only by His indifference (ignoring them so that they are condemned by their own sin, while saving the ELECT who would ALSO have been condemned by their own sin but were NOT because God forcefully ACTED), then there is EXCUSE. He foreKNOWS, He does not foreDECIDE.

And there absolutely ARE conditions---Jesus says, "you must be humbled as children" (Matt18:3-4), "you must do the will of the Father" (Matt7:21), "you must repent" (Lk13:3), "you must be born again" (Jn3:3---this is the one on which all the others are founded). EACH of those is couched as:

"Unless _____, you will NOT inherit Heaven".

Ben, are all men "justified unto life?" YES!!!

The "life" referred to here is the eternal, not the life we live now. Right!

The answer is of course not. Oh yes they are...

So, pray tell, when Paul says that Christ's act of righteousness resulted in "justification of life" to "PAS ANTHROPOS all men" and then the obvious reality is that NOT ALL MEN, are "justified of life" do you take that to mean that Paul lied? I take it to mean as Paul wrote it: ALL MEN are justified by Christ-on-the-Cross---and EACH and EVERY MAN can receive that free gift, or REJECT IT!

If Jesus died to justify ALL MEN, but a certain man REFUSES THE GIFT, is that man JUSTIFIED? NO!

Salvation is universal---"Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not just ours but also for the HOLOS-KOSMOS (whole-entire-world)" (1Jn2:2). Is He the "propitiation for those who DENY HIM"? NO! But is He the propitiation for the WHOLE WORLD? YES! He IS the propitiation (payment, appeasment) for EVERYONE, just as He justifies all men---but it is only RATIFIED for those who BELIEVE!!! When we receive Christ, we receive the justification, we receive the propitiation for our sins, we receive the forgiveness, we receive eternal life (if indeed we endure in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from Jesus---Col1:23)...

Or that Jesus just didn't know what He was talking about? Or that Jesus didn't have the power to "justify" the eternal life of "PAS ANTHROPOS all men?" He certainly had the power---but Jesus must be RECEIVED. "I am the door of the sheep. If ANYONE enters through Me he shall be saved, and shall go in and out and find pasture."[/color] Jn10:9

Oh...I see. You are justified NOT BECAUSE OF CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUS ACT, but rather, because you chose to "receive the gift of righeousness and the grace..." Who was it again that you credit with your salvation? God's unconditional grace or your decision to "receive" salvation?

Why do you believe grace is UNCONDITIONAL? I just cited verses, words from Jesus, spelling out contitions. Why do you believe salvation is not "RECEIVING JESUS"? "For as many as RECEIVED HIM, to THEM He give the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name.

(...who were born not of blood nor of the will (thelema-desire) of the flesh, nor of the will (desire) of man, but of God---this is identical to Romans 9:16, as we discussed above) Jn1:12-13

"As you have RECEIVED CHRIST, so WALK in Him" (Col2:6)
 
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Ben johnson

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By all means, I agree. However, you credit our ability to believe to some fictional remnant of righteousness, or so it seems, that remains in us after the Fall.
No---I simply hear the words of Jesus: "I will DRAW/DRAG ALL MEN to Myself"...

If I believed that man was capable of goodness apart from God, I would be guilty of Pelagianism.
Then please help me to understand why James writes it as: "Brethren, if any of you..." Do you really believe James was writing to squatters, those were were never saved in the FIRST place? BRETHREN if any of YOU? And I can't imagine how "planao-err" from the "aletheia-truth", and another "epistrepho-turns-him-back" can be understood to be referring to "one-who-was-never-saved"...
Last two verses (5:19-20).
Those that "fall away" absolutely can be some people that are saved. I think I made that clear here. However, as I said, with regard to those that are saved that are drawn away by "paying attention to deceiving spirits and doctrines," it is referring to falling into sin, not falling out of salvation.
Falling into sin? And not falling out of salvation? "For if we continue sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of fire which consumes the adversaries". Heb10:26 Please help me to understand, how one who has "fallen into sin", is still saved?

"Each man is tempted when he is enticed by his own lust; when lust is conceived it births sin, and sin brings death." Jms1:14=15
They're not worse with regard to salvation. Their sinfulness is worse because they have that "knowledge of Jesus." They cannot claim ignorance. They know the truth and, despite that knowledge, choose to be disobedient.
So you believe they are still SAVED? They began as "dogs and sows" (by virtue of the vomit/mire in which they dwelt), they became sheep (escaped defilements through saved-knowledge-of-Lord/Savior/Jesus), but then they are dogs & sows again (because they returned to the vomit/mire). They "turned-away-from-the-Holy-Commandment". They are "entangled in the defilements of the world and are OVERCOME". But they are still saved.

Respectfully, what is salvation to you? If one can be living in vomit/mire, sinning willfully, turned away from the Holy Commandment, then what is "born-again" all about?

As I said, "ALL who are saved were "faithless" WHEN they were saved."
I don't buy that. "For by grace THROUGH FAITH have you been saved." Without faith, there is no salvation. From the start, in the middle, to the end.

Of course I'm talking about regeneration, not sanctification. As far as remaining "faithless" it's a non-issue. I don't believe God regenerates us and then just leaves the "working out of our salvation" to us any more than I believe "our believing" is the basis by which God chose His elect.John3:16. John 1:12. John 6:40. "belief" and "faith-to-salvation" are interchangeable.

On the contrary, "IT IS GOD who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13).
Only if you are SURRENDERED to Him. "I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me; and the life I live in the flesh I live by FAITH in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." Gal2:20
As always, it has been a pleasure reading your insightful posts Ben.
The pleasure is mutual, Reformationist. "Contending for the faith", discussing and learning and teaching Scripture, cannot but strengthen all participants. And it would be no fun alone....

:D

Louis, it is so difficult to go back and search through all that archive---why don't you help her out with just a couple of points?

:)

(PS: "Semitic", not "semetic"...)
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by Ben johnson
Reformationist, you are taking Romans 3, as "theological dictate"---and it is NOT.

Not sure what you are saying here.&nbsp; What do you mean by "theological dictate?"&nbsp; Are you saying that the state of man described in Romans 3 is an exaggeration as you say about Psalms 14, and 53?

Paul is referencing Psalms, for EFFECT. Specifically, Psalms 14, and 53. it is a lamentation, David is exagerating.

Oooooohhh.&nbsp; David was exaggerating.&nbsp; I guess that means Paul was exaggerating too?&nbsp; Hmmm... I never really thought about God breathed Scripture as an exaggeration.&nbsp; Thanks for the insight. :rolleyes:

Or do you think Jeremiah 29:13, is a lie? "And you will seek Me, and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart."

Come on man!&nbsp; This&nbsp;process of taking&nbsp;obscure&nbsp;Scripture waaaay out of context and applying it to all of mankind is absolutely ridiculous.&nbsp;&nbsp;Are you&nbsp;going to continue doing this?&nbsp; If so, I might as well stop participating.&nbsp; As to the referrenced verse, IT IS&nbsp;WRITTEN TO GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE.&nbsp; It is not directed towards all mankind.&nbsp; Look at the first sentence in the chapter:

Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem&nbsp;TO THE REMAINDER OF THE ELDERS WHO WERE CARRIED AWAY CAPTIVE - TO THE PRIESTS, THE PROPHETS, AND ALL THE PEOPLE WHOM&nbsp;NEBUCHADNEZZAR HAD CARRIED AWAY CAPTIVE FROM&nbsp;JERUSALEM TO BABYLON.

Try reading the entire chapter.&nbsp; Context man.&nbsp; Sheeesh.

It's too late in the night (morning?) to go into depth (again) on Romans 9, but it clearly speaks of salvation not being of works but of grace. "It does not depend on the man who wills or runs but on God who has mercy".

Uhhh...have I said differently?

When it says God "hardened Pharaoh's heart", you must understand this in context---please read Exodus 9:34-35; do you see? Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart; yet in the very NEXT verse, 10:1, GOD DID IT!!! Which was it, Pharaoh, or God? There is a truism under the "Semetic view", that a person's own actions are often ascribed to God. In reality, Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart, and God HONORED that hardening.

I must understand this in context?!!&nbsp; Do you know what the only thing that keeps everyone of us from having a heart that is hardened to God?&nbsp; It HIS grace.&nbsp; When Scripture says God hardened Pharaoh's heart all that means is that God did not give Pharaoh the grace to overcome his fallen nature and merely left him to do exactly what was in his nature to do, respond in an ungodly, fallen way.&nbsp; Do you think God can't control His own creation?&nbsp; He makes it very clear for the exact reason that He (God) put Pharaoh in the position that He did:

Romans 9:17,18
For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."&nbsp; Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Hmmm...who's Will is it that determines whom God has mercy on?&nbsp; Who is it that solely decides, according to His own Will, whom He will harden?

God wasn't responding to Pharaoh's disobedience.&nbsp; Pharaoh's disobedience was the method that God forordained to have His name "declared in all the earth."

YES---they absolutely ARE---and this is the whole point of my participation in these discussions.

Really?!!!&nbsp; All men are drawn to God?&nbsp; I don't think I'm even going to take the time to rebutt this.&nbsp; I just hope everyone who reads it is blessed with the grace to recognize this statement for what it is.

Romans 1 teaches that ALL men have Christ revealed to them, and ALL MEN are without excuse; if God called only SOME, then there most certainly WOULD be an excuse.

Seems we've been at this point in this same disscussion so many times in the past.&nbsp; As I said, there is a general revelation of Himself that God gives to all men.&nbsp; The fallenness of those that are not foreordained to salvation disregards this authority.&nbsp; There is an effectual call that God grants to His chosen by giving them the grace to believe.&nbsp; You attribute so much power to man and his ability to thwart, or hold off,&nbsp;God.&nbsp; Here you've been saying God desires the salvation of all men, yet, as far as I know, you don't dispute that not all men are, or will be, saved.&nbsp; What does this say about your opinion of God?&nbsp; Do you think God does as man and arbitrarily "desires" something knowing that it cannot come to pass?

Why then are some saved, and some are not? Jesus answers that---"You CANNOT hear, because you ...WANT to do the evil desires of your devil-father" (Jn8:43-44).

Hmmm...that's strange.&nbsp; So you're saying some are not adopted into the family of God, i.e., Christians?&nbsp; Wait.&nbsp; I thought you said God sends out the same call to all men.&nbsp; Why is it that you think some men, then, still desire not to do the things of God?&nbsp; Freewill?&nbsp; Let me ask you Ben, do you even believe the Fall happened?&nbsp; And if so, what was the result on the nature of mankind?&nbsp; Do you think it was still within man to do good, though the Bible says otherwise?&nbsp; Oh that's right.&nbsp; You think that the state of man described is just exaggeration, right?&nbsp; If man still had the capacity to do good why in the world did Jesus have to die?&nbsp; Do you believe Jesus rescued anyone?&nbsp; I said rescued.&nbsp; That implies they could not have climbed out of the quagmire of fallenness by any effort of their own.&nbsp; The truth is, those whom God has not yet redeemed can only act in accordance with their fallen nature, which is "the evil desires of their devil-father."&nbsp;

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...

First you say the correct interpretation of HELKLUO is "dragged," and now you imply it is some gentle leading, or "wooing," that God initiates to gently tug man to redemption.&nbsp; When the Bible says God "drags" those that come to Him it isn't gentle.&nbsp; It is His Divine, Sovereign authority taking out the heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh that is inclined to be obedient to God's Will.

Yes they are chosen for a reason---because they BELIEVED ( /received-Christ, /were-born-again, etc).

Your own words from this very same post:

Romans 9, but it clearly speaks of salvation not being of works but of grace.

Which you Follow&nbsp;with Scripture:

"It does not depend on the man who wills or runs but on God who has mercy."

Let me guess.&nbsp; You don't consider making the decision to believe in Christ a work, right?&nbsp; That would work out conveniently.&nbsp;

Scripture says that "faith-unto-salvation" comes not from GOD, but from our HEARTS (Rm10:17, 10:10).

WHAT??!!!&nbsp; What Bible are you reading?&nbsp; Verse 17 says, "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" and verse 10 says, "For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."&nbsp; Ben, oh Ben.&nbsp; "The heart" mentioned in this passage is NOT the muscle that pumps the blood through your body.&nbsp; In the Bible, when "the heart of man" is referred to it means "the seat of reason."&nbsp; It means, "the consciousness."&nbsp; It means "the intellect."&nbsp; Notice the distinction in light of what I've said:

"For with the heart (the inner man, the seat of reason) one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth (the outer man, the physical portion of man) confession is made unto salvation."

Do you understand? God has not decreed ANY to perish. If we were predestined, then it is GOD who elects, and it is GOD who reprobates, either directly or by indifference. Yet this verse flat contradicts this---if they go to Hell, it is not GOD'S WILL-DECREE!

So God, the&nbsp;Sovereign&nbsp;Ruler and Creator of all things&nbsp;created&nbsp;Divine decrees that none shall perish and yet it happens anyway?&nbsp;&nbsp;Well, that just sums up your view of how not powerful you believe God to&nbsp;be.&nbsp;

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1Tim2:3-4 "desires", is "thelo"---to will, desire, wish"...

So is that "Will, desire, wish" like a created being?&nbsp; God,&nbsp;who is omnipotent desires for something to come to pass but it doesn't?&nbsp; Very powerful&nbsp;god you have there. :(&nbsp;&nbsp;

Please show me where "ability-to-believe" is NOT provided for all men?

Is it really going to make a difference?&nbsp; Probably not, but here goes:

John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

Faith-to-salvation comes from HEARING---not unilaterally from God.

You, who act as if you are so learned, are so unstudied as to read the word "hear" and take that&nbsp;to mean with your physical ears.&nbsp; This is truly sad.

You know.&nbsp; I just realized that this is going nowhere good.&nbsp; These are the same points you and I have made over and over again.&nbsp; If I say that no enlightenment can come about if it is not God's Will and then proceed to argue it's the same thing as saying I don't trust that God will handle this according to His Will.&nbsp; I'm out dude.

God bless.
 
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Ben johnson

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Oooooohhh. David was exaggerating. I guess that means Paul was exaggerating too? Hmmm... I never really thought about God breathed Scripture as an exaggeration. Thanks for the insight.
Well then, the Pharasees were GODS. There are many gods. Jesus Himself said so, whilst quoting Psalm 82. Jn10:34ff. Or, is it possible, just possible that Jesus was EXAGERATING? Maybe, just a little SARCASTIC? In Rom3 Paul speaks of people tending to not-seek-God; if salvation was of works then all would perish. Yet the ability for sinful man to seek God is not in just "some obscure Scripture", but rather all through it: "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness", "seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened, ask and ye shall receive." I simply recognize that Romans3 is not "dictate" that man is too corrupt to ever recognize God and to turn to Him. Paul's theme is that salvation is by grace---if it was by law, then a man seeks God on his own, earning salvation by merrit. But if by Grace, if every person is CALLED, then there is no basis to say "it is IMPOSSIBLE for man to TURN to God"---all the rest of Scripture says that "salvation is by receiving Christ". ALL are called, ALL can be saved. Justification is for ALL. "If ANYONE enters through Me, ...he shall find pasture." "Let WHOSOEVER WILL take of the water of life freely".
I must understand this in context?!! Do you know what the only thing that keeps everyone of us from having a heart that is hardened to God? It HIS grace. When Scripture says God hardened Pharaoh's heart all that means is that God did not give Pharaoh the grace to overcome his fallen nature and merely left him to do exactly what was in his nature to do, respond in an ungodly, fallen way.
I'm sorry, the hardening was his own pursuit. Pharaoh's I mean. In Ex9, "When Pharaoh saw that the plagues ceased, he SINNED and HARDENED HIS OWN HEART!" We are charged in exactly the same way: "Today if you hear His voice, do not harden YOUR hearts as when they provoked Me. ...Take care, brethren, lest there be found in ANY of you an evil unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God". Heb3 Tell me, where is the "GOD-DID-IT" accusation here? "Do not harden YOUR OWN hearts!"

If you DO harden your heart, if you DO fall into unbelief, you will fall away from the living God (hardened by the deceitfulness of sin). Where is the predestination? It doesn't exist. We are to draw near to God, who CAN sympathize with our weakness, so we draw near with confidence that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need." 4:14-15 We are to hold fast our confession and draw near to God to find grace and receive mercy. Predestined? Not in THIS passage. Free will. Choice. To receive Him, to cling to Him, that He may rescue us. Consequently, not apart from our first believing.
Really?!!! All men are drawn to God? I don't think I'm even going to take the time to rebutt this. I just hope everyone who reads it is blessed with the grace to recognize this statement for what it is.
I wonder how you would rebut it if you could? "Judgment is upon the world, now the ruler of this would shall be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men to Myself. For a little while longer the light is among you. Walk while you have the light, that darkness may not overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he goes. While you have light, believe in the light, in order that you may become sons of light." Is there any predestination is any of this? BELIEVE, in order that you may become SONS of LIGHT. Same words as in Jn1:12. Believe, that you may be saved. Not saved-which-causes-belief.

I would like you to explain what is meant, by "a general call that is ineffectual"? What is God doing, if He "calls-generally, but not intending that those-who-are-called be saved. Why is it named a "CALL"? Where is the Scripture that differentiates "general but ineffectual call" from "selected-and-effectual-call of the elect"? What is the difference? Scripturally?
You attribute so much power to man and his ability to thwart, or hold off, God. Here you've been saying God desires the salvation of all men, yet, as far as I know, you don't dispute that not all men are, or will be, saved. What does this say about your opinion of God? Do you think God does as man and arbitrarily "desires" something knowing that it cannot come to pass?
We have two possibilities---one, that God has bestowed each man with enough information and enough of His presence to overcome depravity, to receive Him---that HE may do the work of salvation IN the man. Thus, each man is "dragged-drawn" to God, and actually GIVEN the choice. The man can recognize God and turn to Him, or the man can walk away. Is this just? If the man walks away, who is to blame for his eternal demise?

The second possibility is that only SOME are chosen for eternity. THe others are NOT brought to a place where they can choose---thus they perish in their own sinfulness and rebellion. Yet, it was God who decided they would, every person who ever lived would also perish if not for God's intervention. It remains entirely, God's choice. Is this just? If the man walks away, who is to blame for his demise?

If the first prospect is true, then he-who-walks-away does not thwart God's will. For it is God's will that Jesus died, offering salvation to all who believe. His will, is the CHOICE. So he-who-is-saved, operates within God's will. And he-who-rejects-God-and-perishes, operates within His will also.
Hmmm...that's strange. So you're saying some are not adopted into the family of God, i.e., Christians? Wait. I thought you said God sends out the same call to all men. Why is it that you think some men, then, still desire not to do the things of God? Freewill? Let me ask you Ben, do you even believe the Fall happened? And if so, what was the result on the nature of mankind? Do you think it was still within man to do good, though the Bible says otherwise? Oh that's right. You think that the state of man described is just exaggeration, right? If man still had the capacity to do good why in the world did Jesus have to die? Do you believe Jesus rescued anyone? I said rescued. That implies they could not have climbed out of the quagmire of fallenness by any effort of their own. The truth is, those whom God has not yet redeemed can only act in accordance with their fallen nature, which is "the evil desires of their devil-father."
And yet, if Jesus "helkuo-drags ALL MEN to Himself", is not "total depravity", overcome? "For MANY are CALLED but FEW are CHOSEN"---the parable ends with ALL having-been-called; but only those who CAME, and who clothed themselves with righteousness, became the chosen.

Only they who believed.
Do you think God does as man and arbitrarily "desires" something knowing that it cannot come to pass?
All I can discuss, is what I read in Scripture. And the Bible clearly says "God desires all men to be saved". If God's nature is just, then each man must be responsible for his own demise, if perishing is the result. For this responsibility to exist, for "no excuse" to exist, that man must have had the very real opportunity to be saved. God may well know the future, He may well know which person will accept and which will reject---but He is bound by His own nature, that each person must make their own choice. "I have set before you life and death---so choose life." No one goes to Hell on God's own responsibility.
WHAT??!!! What Bible are you reading? Verse 17 says, "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" and verse 10 says, "For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Ben, oh Ben. "The heart" mentioned in this passage is NOT the muscle that pumps the blood through your body. In the Bible, when "the heart of man" is referred to it means "the seat of reason." It means, "the consciousness." It means "the intellect." Notice the distinction in light of what I've said:

"For with the heart (the inner man, the seat of reason) one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth (the outer man, the physical portion of man) confession is made unto salvation."
How shall they hear without a preacher? They hear with their physical ears. The word convicts their hearts, some of them, and they believe. Their "heart" is their "consciousness". What is your question?
So God, the Sovereign Ruler and Creator of all things created Divine decrees that none shall perish and yet it happens anyway? Well, that just sums up your view of how not powerful you believe God to be.
He does NOT decree that "none shall perish". What God decrees, happens. He decreed that salvation be CHOICE. Thus, He did not decree ANYONE to perish. Do you see the contradiction with "PE"?

Predestined Election believes that God decrees most people for Hell, and only those He CHOOSES will be saved.

But we have this unavoidable Scripture, that says "God does not decree ANYONE for Hell". If they end up there, it is by their own choice.

No predestination. Period.
So is that "Will, desire, wish" like a created being? God, who is omnipotent desires for something to come to pass but it doesn't? Very powerful god you have there.
All I have, is Scripture. Scripture tells me that salvation is for everyone. That is God's DECREE. His DESIRE is that everyone BE SAVED. But it is not His DECREE. If God has set in place voluntarism, then those-who-reject-Him do not thwart His will. His will (decree) is that salvation be available for all, that ALL are justified through Jesus---if they believe.
Please show me where "ability-to-believe" is NOT provided for all men?

Is it really going to make a difference? Probably not, but here goes:

John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
You have lost me---this verse seems to be saying "those who voluntarily receive/believe Jesus, are saved". How does this verse support "exclusivity"? Please show me a verse that says "the ability to believe is NOT PROVIDED to some"
You, who act as if you are so learned, are so unstudied as to read the word "hear" and take that to mean with your physical ears. This is truly sad.
The verse DOES mean "physical ears". "For how shall they hear without a preacher"? Physical ears hear the Word, which convicts their intellectual and spiritual heart.
You know. I just realized that this is going nowhere good. These are the same points you and I have made over and over again. If I say that no enlightenment can come about if it is not God's Will and then proceed to argue it's the same thing as saying I don't trust that God will handle this according to His Will. I'm out dude.
If you wish. But I have asked many questions, more in this post---I hope you will answer them. And help me to understand how 2Pet2:20-22 supports "pe". And you have not dealt with the last two verses of James.

I hope you will take the time to show me in Scripture where there is a "general-but-ineffectual-call", ineffectual because of God's intent rather than man's wilfull rejection...

Again, thanx for the discussion. God bless you too...

:)
 
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