Word Faith/Positive Confession

Once again I am amazed at the hostility from believers towards the testomony of faith from another believer.

to sad to even post anything

Looks like the unbelieving gen. are still around, and still wanna stone the faith-talking people like Caleb. Well, guess what, the unbelieving never entered the land flowing with milk and honey!

Num 14:

6 And Joshua the son of Nun, and Caleb the son of Jephunneh, which were of them that searched the land, rent their clothes:
7 And they spake unto all the company of the children of Israel, saying, The land, which we passed through to search it, is an exceeding good land.
8 If the LORD delight in us, then he will bring us into this land, and give it us; a land which floweth with milk and honey. .........
10 But all the congregation bade stone them with stones. And the glory of the LORD appeared in the tabernacle of the congregation before all the children of Israel.
11 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

Susan,

quote: "Please do not call those of us who oppose Word Faith teaching unbelievers."

I did not say you guys weren't Christians. I said "unbelieving" -- not believing in the promises of God like the 10 spies. God already told them it was a land flowing with milk and honey (prosperity) and tht they cld go possess it (Isnt God's Word enough?).

They didnt believe God. So they sent spies in to see for themselves. And even after they saw that what God told them was true, they still didnt want to believe -- and even wanted to stone those who had faith and believed (Caleb n Joshua).

It's the same today -- faith Christian vs the Christian critics who want to "stone" them. The former entered the land flowing with milk and honey. the latter died in the wilderness.

btw: Isnt it the Christian critics of the WOF who are calling the WOFers non-Christians/false prophets/heretics etc?

" BTW if you look at the stories of some of the 20th century's greatest missionaries and others whom God did great things for, not many were Word Faith devotees. "

There certainly were many! Try John G Lake n Smith Wigglesworth for a start. n so what if "many" didnt know anything abt faith? that doesnt make WOF wrong.

The faith/confession movement can be persecuted just like any other believer who professes any other faith in Christ.

The faith confession movement can persecute those who disagree with them as well.

If We think that slapping each other with scripture texts is "love of Christ" we may want to rethink our idea of spiritual fruits.

The proof of any "confession" is in the pudding lol.
You may confess anything you want, but let it be said clearly.
the proof is in the results. not the words.
Paul said the "kingdom of God is not in word but in power"
He also said he would "know the power" of those who spoke when he talked to them in the future.
Let me say this. LOOK FOR THE POWER. Is God healing those who
lay hold of God for healing, I can say many have that I have known.
Is God delivering those who lay hold of God for freedoms that they desire so that they may run the race unencumbered with beseting sins?
I have seen many here receive.
I have always found those who detract from any move of God, and Ive found those who detract from false teachers, not because they were false but because they simply "walked not with us" as the disciple once said.

When you attack the body of Christ, you are a nation dividing against itself, and therefore it cannot stand.
Are the faith/confession teachers apart of the body?
Look for the power.
Not POWER from miracles, because God will answer a believers prayer
completely IRRESPECTIVE of a false teacher who says what he says for filthy lucre. NO Look for power in thier lives. Do they themselves walk closely with Jesus Christ? Do they themselves practise what they preach?
When the chips are down do they resort to the flesh or Christ?
When they are persecuted do they revile, do they threaten? Do they
persecute in return those who disagree with them?
My friends it is NOT power that appears from the pulpit that you look for but POWER when persecuted, power when reviled, power when judged wrongly, power when hated and rejected of men. Do they love others still?
Do they seek revenge and law-suits? Are they eager to gain worldly goods? Are they looking for POWER from other men? or do they find power from God? Can you see them go DOWN IN HUMILITY to find power? or do you find them lording Gods flock when finances get low?
When you get done asking these questions of YOURSELF then ask them about those whom you hear.
False teaching is false and a lie, it is error and heresy, it should never be given even one hour to lie open to discussion. BUT if you think you can simply gather yourself and other with you own cicles to harvest the tares from amidst the wheat you are yourself in error.
The truth as a sword is ALWAYS FOUGHT WITH by way of LOVE and the POWER OF A CHRISTLIKE LIFE. It is not self appointed tare harvesters who think they have a corner or Christs Church that they must cleanes.
Josiah

Josiah,

So what's your opinion on faith and confession of the Word movt? do you think the criticisms laid on it in this forum are justified?

Do WOFers criticise and condemn more than their critics? I usu find that it is the other way round.

Dear andrew:

I would have to take each one seperately as you would, so as to be just and fair with each opinion.

I hold the faith/confession movement to have a great baby, which
is the answer to many of the ill of the world. But the bath water which surrounds that baby, (those things which prove false to the scripture)
I throw out. I will not throw away the baby (meaning the use of faith)
even though it may sit in the dirty water of mens errors, heresies, bad examples and poorly represented truth.
What constitutes faith teachers/evangelists is the adoption of teachings and doctrines of hagin/copeland/lake/capps/sevil/. Those men I cannot ask the questions I listed in my earlier post, I therefore leave them to Gods hand. I will not say one way or another. What is said from the pulpit and what is said from the kitchen table are many times two different things.
I dont have the acquaintance to do either. Therefore I dont know the power of their lives.
pulpit power, longevity, public favor, church favor, miracles, donations,
cannot be used (in my opinion) for discovering a godly minister.
Paul was run out of town, he was broke and hungered, peter was beaten and imprisoned, steven had a very short ministry.
An old chinese pastor gave a message "Jesus changes everything in your life", it lasted for about 2 minutes. A very staunch hardened atheist gave his life to Christ after hearing it, simply because he quotes" a crucified man doesnt have to say much".
The "voice of God" may at times be heard through donkeys, but the rule is
from "faithful men who live according to righteousness".
the questions need to be pointed in that direction. Not in the direction of
pulpit ministry.
(although blatant error) is and should be rejected. It is not the charge of Christ to every believer to speak, negative, harsh judgmental words about men we dont know.
Jesus himself said "ye have heard it said, but I say unto you"
let us follow his example.  Let us correct error with the godly representation of truth, not merely spouting scripture. Jesus is not afraid to remove the candlestick from those who follow error and live a life corrupted by sin.
Josiah

Originally posted by Susan
Could we begin a flame-free discussion of WordFaith teachings?  

I would like to ask some questions.

1: Where is the soverignty of God in Word Faith teaching?

2: Why does Word Faith always work around to stating in some way or another that the sick choose sickness?

3: What about the poor? What is our obligation to them according to Faith teaching?

4: Is disregarding symptoms to claim one's healing considered a sign of holiness or goodness in Word Faith?

5: Why does anyone die, if Word Faith teachings are true?

6: Do you believe that objective reality is a tool of Satan?

7: Is it common practice in Word Faith circles to do things like not wear glasses, not buy insurance for anything, and not even take crime prevention or fire safety precautions?

8: Is it deemed OK in Word Faith to "curse" percieved human enemies?

These are some things I have heard and seen talked about by Word Faith members and critics alike. Could we discuss them?

 

 

 

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Susan,

I don't think I could add much to what Hobart said.

Except, for question #4.  Personally, I don't deny the existance of symptons, but I do deny their right to be there.  Such as, if I walked into my home and found an intruder, I would not deny that he was there but I would deny his right to be there.  And I would do everything in my power to remove him from the premises.

Because "by His stripes we are healed", we have the authority to deny the right of sick symptoms to be there.    

As Hobie said, we do what we need to do, but we don't have to open the door and welcome it in.

And question #7.  I wear glasses.  I also take some regular medication.  I pray over it and believe that someday I will manifest the healing that I believe I have.  Until then I do what I need to do in order to function. 

We each must do what we believe God has told us directly, for us.  If God had told me not to take any medication, period, hopefully, I would obey.  But, He has not told me that.  I personally know some people who walk that walk, but I have never heard any of them say that everybody else has to do it too.

Question #8.  We are never to curse human enemies.  Scripture tells us to bless our enemies.  However, we do have the authority to curse sickness, poverty, etc.  Such as when I prayed for my elderly dog, who had a large cyst on his side.  It was there for approx 5 yrs or say and I would regularly curse the cyst and thank God that my dog is healthy.  On another thread I shared how just a couple of weeks ago, I was petting him and the cyst is gone, leaving just a flabby bit of skin, where it was. 

 

 

"No... sometimes things just happen. No rhyme nor reason. No script or grand plan. Just nature."

Hmm..Hobs, that statement gave me pause, so you think somethings happen outside of God's plan?

"Do WOFers criticise and condemn more than their critics? I usu find that it is the other way round."

From my experiences, cults are the same way, they get critized more then they critize others, so what's your point? And no I'm not implying the WOF movement is a cult, I just believe the teachers I have seen and read thus far are wrong and unbiblical in their teachings.

"They didnt believe God. "

Andrew, I fully believe God, I just know him not to be a meal ticket ONLY concerded with me having a cushy physical life

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"They didnt believe God. "

Andrew, I fully believe God, I just know him not to be a meal ticket ONLY concerded with me having a cushy physical life

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WOF people don't necisarily believe that God wants us to have a cushy life.  Rather He wants us to have a fulfilled life.  You cannot be sick and be fulfilled.  You cannot be hungry and be fulfilled.  You cannot be lonly and be fulfilled.

I personally believe that God gives us more then what we need so that we have an oppertunity to sow in to the kingdom.  To be a blessing.  You can not be a blessing is you are filled with wanting.  We must remember the parable of the talent.  If we expect for God to act on our behalf then we must be willing to invest into the kingdom.  He will also reward us for our selflessness. 

quote:"As Hobie said, we do what we need to do, but we don't have to open the door and welcome it in. "

amen! You can't stop birds from flying over your head, but you can certainly stop them from building a nest on yourhead! *LOL

quote:"We each must do what we believe God has told us directly, for us.Ê If God had told me not to take any medication, period, hopefully, I would obey.Ê But, He has not told me that.Ê"

Yes agreed! I used to take antibiotics everyday for a certain condition. I knew it wasnt good for my kidneys but in order to keep the condition under control, i had too. I had been taking it on and off for many years.

after I got turned on to Jesus, and found out abt healing that belongs to me, one day, i just took the whole chunk of medicine and thru it in the bin. that was the end of it. there will come a time Quaffie, when you have the faith to believe that you really dont need it anymore, then you can stop taking the med. but until then if u dont have the confidence/faith yet, continue taking it and believing.

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quote:"If we expectÊfor God to act on our behalf then we must be willing to invest into the kingdom."

agreed Snup. God cant fill a cup that is full. the cup ought to have holes, where the water/money is flowing out all the time to bless others, then God can top it up constantly. Stagnant water/money left in the cup/bank wont do any good. the more you give the more you receive. that's prosperity, so that you are in a position/capacity to bless others.

that's what i like abt KCM. in a recent article, when a certain mission/church in P New Guinea lost their plane and pilot (they needed to fly in deep into jubgle areas to preach), KCM was able to just bless them with new planes. now how many of us got that kind of money!

Originally posted by Quaffer
We each must do what we believe God has told us directly, for us.  If God had told me not to take any medication, period, hopefully, I would obey.  But, He has not told me that.  I personally know some people who walk that walk, but I have never heard any of them say that everybody else has to do it too.

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Simply believing something because you read it in the Bible is not good enough.  You can use the promises in the bible to believe God for anything that you want.  But that is selfish and it is not faith.  Faith is believing God to do what He wants.  Faith comes by hearing.  So if you conjure up something to believe God for.  You have missed the boat.  You have left God out for the benifit of your self.  If you need something go to God and ask Him for it and then begin to wait for His responce.  When He says yes there is never any room left for doubt.  Wait for Him to say yes.  Don't say a quick prayer and say yes to your self.  Wait for God.  Listen for Him.  In this you will learn humility and patience and faith.  You will learn that God is a rewarded of them who diligently seek Him.  And that He is faithful to those who are faithful.

Faith comes by hearing the voice of God.  Faith comes by hearing God say yes.  Faith comes by revelation.

God Bless

SnuP

"WOF people don't necisarily believe that God wants us to have a cushy life. "

yes, they do. The most popular statement was "name it claim it".

"You can not be a blessing is you are filled with wanting. "

You've got to be joking. I've been more blessed by people in "wanting" then any other type of people. Go on a mission trip sometime.

"after I got turned on to Jesus, and found out abt healing that belongs to me, one day, i just took the whole chunk of medicine and thru it in the bin. that was the end of it. "

Really? I thought that medicine was one type of healing??? i guess you're redefining it again??

"Faith comes by hearing the voice of God. Faith comes by hearing God say yes. Faith comes by revelation.
"

Let me add a little biblical background to your statement...Faith comes by hearing God say yes AND no and accepting it.

"Simply believing something because you read it in the Bible is not good enough."

Snup,

are you talking about the concept of "rhema" word.

There's a book called Voice of God by Leroy Thompson. basically, his pt is that there's a big diff between just quoting and confessing your relevant pet scriptures when you encounter a problem, and seeking the Lord to find out what HE HIMSELF speaks to you regarding your situation, then quoting and confessing what he has freshly spoken to you.

so for eg, if we are sick, we usu automatically start quoting and confessing our pet scripture "By his stripes I'm healed". But seeking the Lord for His word on the matter may yield something totally different. He may say:"Use a little wine". So, doing the former may bring results in 10 mths time. but doing the latter brings results very quickly.

hope u understand what I'm trying to say.

"The words that I speak to you, they are spirit and they are life" -- it's what Jesus says to your heart abt your particular situation that will bring abt the change, not so much just automatically quoting our pet scriptures.

i must admit i'm lazy and usu just do the pet scriptures method.

Originally posted by Andrew
there will come a time Quaffie, when you have the faith to believe that you really dont need it anymore, then you can stop taking the med. but until then if u dont have the confidence/faith yet, continue taking it and believing.  

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Thanks Andrew,

You are right. I believe that. And in the meantime I'll continue to build my faith as God directs. 

Barbara

Originally posted by SnuP
Simply believing something because you read it in the Bible is not good enough.  You can use the promises in the bible to believe God for anything that you want.  But that is selfish and it is not faith.  Faith is believing God to do what He wants.  Faith comes by hearing.  So if you conjure up something to believe God for.  You have missed the boat.  You have left God out for the benifit of your self.  If you need something go to God and ask Him for it and then begin to wait for His responce.  When He says yes there is never any room left for doubt.  Wait for Him to say yes.  Don't say a quick prayer and say yes to your self.  Wait for God.  Listen for Him.  In this you will learn humility and patience and faith.  You will learn that God is a rewarded of them who diligently seek Him.  And that He is faithful to those who are faithful.

Faith comes by hearing the voice of God.  Faith comes by hearing God say yes.  Faith comes by revelation.

God Bless

SnuP

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Sorry SnuP, ya lost me on this one. 

I understand what you're saying but I'm not sure what your addressing in regards to my statement. 

Barbara

Quaffie,

if i understnd correctly, what Snup's trying to say is what i said in post #35.

of cse, i assume that you do seek God and are doing what he has instructed u to do.

blessings

Originally posted by Andrew
"The words that I speak to you, they are spirit and they are life" -- it's what Jesus says to your heart abt your particular situation that will bring abt the change, not so much just automatically quoting our pet scriptures.

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Excellent scripture. 

Mark 11:

For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall caome to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Faith does not doubt.  Its hard to believe God for something that you need and not have some doubt hinding somewhere.  This is the main reason that most people do not get what they ask God for.  The best way around it is to hear God tell you that He will do it.  If God says that He will do something then He is obligated to perform His word or scripture is a lie.  If God says so then it does not matter if you doubt or not.  And it is very easy to have the God kind of faith when God has spoken into your spirit His purpose.

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To Quaffer.  You said that We each must do what we believe God has told us directly.  You demonstate that you have working knowledge of the power of God through His spoken word to us.  You said that if God told you to throw your meds away that you would, I assume that it would be because you believe that God had already healed you.  I just took your statement and ran with it.
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To Louis.  The scripture that I quoted did not have a clause in it that said that God would sometime say no.

Luke 14:

13 And whatsoeverye shall ask in my name, that will I do,...14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

again there is no clause.