What if the U.S. was controlled by Christian fundamentalists?

ashibaka

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This is a compiled list from the Evil Obscene I.I. Forums That I Am Not Allowed To Link To. How many of these things do you think would really happen?

If the religious right controlled the government...

1) Abortion would be outlawed. No exceptions.
2) Hard core inappropriate contentography in any form would be banned.
3) All public schools would replace the teaching of evolution with "creation science"
4) The death penalty would be expanded to cover crimes like rape and drug trafficking
5) Christian schools, charities and other organizations would receive taxpayer funding
...
7) The Constitution would have been amended to state that America is officially a Christian nation.
8) You could add sex between consenting adults of the same gender to the list of death penalty crimes.
...
10) Women would need to dress "appropriately" (perhaps not as bad as the Taliban, but certainly have their heads covered at all times)
11) Most (all?) forms of birth control outlawed.
12) People that are not Christian but are of "mainstream" religions would be relegated to second-class citizens (at best). Pressure to convert would be enormous.
13) People that are religious but not "mainstream" (Wiccans, Satanists, etc.) would be given three choices: Conversion, Deportation, or Execution.
14) Ditto for Atheists, only I don't think they'd get the first two choices.
15) Failure to observe worship services is a crime
16) Blasphemy is a crime
17) Sloth is a crime, so the homeless and unemployed are rounded up and given menial work
18) Married couples are required to "be fruitful and multiply"
19) Immigrants must convert before they are admitted to the country
20) Faith healers are granted license to practice medicine 21) Begin work on a legal definition of "christian" so non-christians (cultists like mormons and catholics, for example) could not falsely hide behind the label "christian".
22) Christians are exempted from traffic laws on Sundays.
23) Ban work on Sundays.
24) Failure to take an oath on the Bible in a courtroom would be grounds for a contempt citation.
 

ashibaka

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That's why I specified "fundamentalists", not "Christians". Obviously, most Christians (even some born-agains) don't want to control anyone. But what about the people like the Institute for Creation Research or the American Family Association? What would they do if they had more power?
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Hello again ashibaka,
Interesting question!
Just let me do a short bio on my political past.
I am a life republican as far back as I can remember. I recall going door to door in October of 62 stuffing "Vote for Goldwater-Humpery" pamphlets into doorways. More recently I was on the county executive committee for the Republican Party, a replublican precient captain, and was the county chairman of the Robertson for president campaign in the 88 election. My wife and I were delegates to the state republican convention that year.
I don't know if you consider Pat Robertson a fundamentalist (believe me, he is not), but that was the closest real-life time we even came close to a "Christian Government". Roberson supporters would have never supported or even considered 90% of the things you listed.
So you can see that I am not just posturing when I say that I seriously doubt the things you describe would ever happen.
Before what you describe could happen. the following institutions and offices would all have to support the fundamentalist position.
The president would have to be supportive (because he has veto power),
Two thirds of both houses of congress would have to fall in because the constitution would have to be changed and they would have to do it.
The Supreme Court would have to be majority... this could not happen for many years as the appointments are life long. The congress could get around this by simply passing a law saying the court now has 20 members, and then stacking the new positions with the flavor of their liking.
Two thirds of the state legislatures would have to support the changes because that is what is required to change the constitution. This would be the most difficult to get around because the states really do not like the federal government telling them what to do to start with, and they would never give the federal government the sort of power you describe regardless of who was in control of it. I know because our state of SC was the first state to secede during the civil war on the states rights issue. People still resent Washington around here. This "two-thirds-of-the-states-rule" is the only plug the states have to pull, and their hand is always on the cord ready to yank whenever some wonderful Washington politician has some grand plan to save us all. This is why there are so few efforts to change the constitution... it only takes 17 states saying "NO" to kill an amendment.
Beyond that, a majority of the voting public would have to vote in all these politicians. Say 100 million voters would have to vote in tens of thousands of politicians who support the items on your list. There are no-where near these numbers of voters or politicians.
If by some stretch of madness this did happen, the military would have to be ready and willing to put down the resulting revolution.


Having said all that, let me add that as a Christian I am aware that people are saved by faith. You cannot legislate faith into people. They have to choose faith on their own. Even the fundamentalist camp (which is very small to start with, and even miniscule when limited to those supporting even part your list) knows you cannot make people love, care, and behave. Not that your list is a picture of what loving, caring, and behaving people are like. I for one would not support most of what is listed, and I doubt there are a handful of fundamentalists would either.

Just a couple words on each:
1) Abortion would be outlawed. No exceptions.
Nope.

2) Hard core inappropriate contentography in any form would be banned.
Nope. Would have to define "hard core first". Teletubbies and Judy Blume are ok with me. X-rated on kid accessible cable is not.

3) All public schools would replace the teaching of evolution with "creation science"

Nope... schools should be able to present any kind of knowledge that man has discovered. Including both of what you mention. If someone says "creation science" should be banned, then perhaps we are closer to what you describe than we think: just with a different kind of "fundamentalism" in control.

4) The death penalty would be expanded to cover crimes like rape and drug trafficking.
I am personally against the death penalty for any crime.


5) Christian schools, charities and other organizations would receive taxpayer funding...
Nope, they do not need government help. Government help always come with regulatory strings attached. No thanks.

7) The Constitution would have been amended to state that America is officially a Christian nation.
That is the rub. The constitution would have to be amended before any of this could happen.


8) You could add sex between consenting adults of the same gender to the list of death penalty crimes.
Nope... like I said. I am against the death penalty in any instance.

10) Women would need to dress "appropriately" (perhaps not as bad as the Taliban, but certainly have their heads covered at all times)
That is just silly. Reminds me of an incident in New Jersey where women were upset about a law outlawing topless bathing at the public beaches. A bunch of gals were protesting at a their beach and were flagrantly breaking the law they so indignantly opposed. Do you think a counter protest was organized made up of men carrying signs "put those tops back on!"? no.....
I think can speak for most men when I say women are beautiful! They are great! Not in an obscene or perv way... but just in their overall physical appearance. Graceful, lovely... perfect! You average guy on the street would not stand for it! God knew what he was doing!
Like I said... silly.

11) Most (all?) forms of birth control outlawed.
Nope. We had four, and said no more!

12) People that are not Christian but are of "mainstream" religions would be relegated to second-class citizens (at best). Pressure to convert would be enormous.
Nope. We have already seen this happen... but in the other direction. There are definite barriers in most government and large corporations against Christians occupying places of authority and power. You do not hear about this in the media. And is not this list a reflection of that phobia? I used to call it "fundaphobia" back in my cartooning days.

13) People that are religious but not "mainstream" (Wiccans, Satanists, etc.) would be given three choices: Conversion, Deportation, or Execution .
Another silly fundaphobic statement. Atheists already did this in Russia... to the Christians. What about Waco? Koresh was a nut (not mainstream?)…. But they sent in a tank against a house with women and kids in it.

14) Ditto for Atheists, only I don't think they'd get the first two choices.
See answer to #13.

15) Failure to observe worship services is a crime
Nope. Most Christians don't go now.

16) Blasphemy is a crime
Nope. Unless you call praying at a football game blasphemy. That is already happening.

17) Sloth is a crime, so the homeless and unemployed are rounded up and given menial work
Welcome to 1998. Been there done that. Anyone applying for food stamps or AFDC is required to take steps toward gameful employment. The states carry out these functions, so there is still a little common sense.

18) Married couples are required to "be fruitful and multiply"
I doubt that would be a problem. Believe me, most (married and not) are putting up a good effort... a lot.

19) Immigrants must convert before they are admitted to the country
Nope... but they should have some means of support, or someone supporting them besides taxpayers. I am against all efforts to force us to contribute to religious charities... like, social security and welfare. I don't care what a person believes; just don't force your tenants and charities on me. Sound familiar?

20) Faith healers are granted license to practice medicine
They already practice, and do not need a license. With a license come regulations. Who would want that?

21) Begin work on a legal definition of "Christian" so non-Christians (cultists like Mormons and Catholics, for example) could not falsely hide behind the label "Christian".
We wanted to remove our kids from the public school in the mid 80s. Not for religious reasons, it was just that they were in the 3rd grade and could not read. Especially bad because we had taught them to read before they ever went to school and the school was "un-teaching" them. There were no private schools within 20 miles so we decided to home school them. State law virtually forbade the practice by instituting ridiculous requirements for home schooling. We had to get around it by first incorporating as a home church, and then forming a private religious school in that home church. A local Mormon family was experiencing the same problems with the schools, but made the mistake of trying to do it the right way and approached the school board for permission to home school. No way. They came to us for help and we let them into our home for schooling.
Who was more tolerant in this situation, the present secular state-school, or the Christians?
Beyond that, we already have what is called "wolves in sheep's clothing". If a bad guy wants to be considered a good guy what does he dress himsefl up as? Not an atheist! ;)

22) Christians are exempted from traffic laws on Sundays.
Is this so we can speed to church, or so we can be sure to make it home in time for kick-off? Go Steelers!

23) Ban work on Sundays.
That actually was in place for many years. Fundamentalists did not do that. Who wants to work on Sunday anyway? I, and most people who actually work for a living would say yippee!

24) Failure to take an oath on the Bible in a courtroom would be grounds for a contempt citation.
Just words to start with. If I did not believe, I would not do it. Let 'em throw me in jail. Beyond that, as a Christian I am supposed to let the truth without a oath. If a person is gonna lie, he can lie an oath.

Overall, the folks who compiled your list are a little out of touch, and really do not know how Christians believe, much less fundamentalists. The list is improbable and preposterous. If there were such a thing as "fundaphobia" they got it big time.

Thanks again ashibaka, you are great! What do you think about some of these things?
 
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JLovesUSo

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I consider the Bible to be the Word of God and try to follow all of it, so I guess that makes me a fundie...lol. By no means I'm I speaking for all fundies here, just my opinion based on what I think the Bible teaches us.

(r=my reply)

1) Abortion would be outlawed. No exceptions.

R) I do agree we would try to stop abortion - IMO, I can never see an instance where a little innocent child (or at the very least, the beginning of 1) must recieve the "death sentence" because it happened to be an inconvienence, unplanned, or even the result of a horrible act committed upon the mother.  You still cannot make the case that the child must die for the acts of another IMO


2) Hard core inappropriate contentography in any form would be banned

R) Can you really say the this is good for our society (and not just from a Christian standpoint..) in any way?  I think we can easily prove the opposite, but I'm not sure we would "ban" it but rather make it "very difficult" on those trying to push the envelope to push child inappropriate content, inappropriate behavior with animals, and ect. on to society - but I would hope even those who are non-christians would want to stop this.  These horrible acts upon children we see on the news everynight - IMO, these horrible human beings are being "fed" the fix from inappropriate contentography, not just inappropriate contentagraphy I will agree, but it's gotta be a large percentage.  Just for example from the FBI: http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/cac/innocent.htm

"Online child inappropriate contentography/child sex exploitation is the most significant crime problem confronting the FBI that involves crimes against children. Throughout the FBI, there was a 1,280% increase in the number of IINI (Innocent Images National Initiative) cases opened between fiscal years 1996 and 2001 from 113 to 1,559."

3) All public schools would replace the teaching of evolution with "creation science"

R) Not replace - but I think most fundies would like the schools to stop teaching evolution as the "ultimate fact" and not a theory (most scientists would back us on this statement btw) and then share the creationist side of the story as well - not pushing it as a fact but, "this is what the bible says" since the relationship/revelation with/of God is all about faith and trust anyway.

5) Christian schools, charities and other organizations would receive taxpayer funding

R) I hope this would never happen - we are not to be "of this world" as Jesus and Paul taught us - so we should not rely on this world to help us to promote the Kingdom of God.  By the teachings of the Bible, we do not need government to do God's will and most of the time, it would go against the teachings of the bible anyway.

7) The Constitution would have been amended to state that America is officially a Christian nation

R) I hate to inform you of this, but it started that way.....we are just trying to keep those who are trying to change it of a Christian nation from doing so.

Here's a link with just some of that information: http://www.alliance4lifemin.org/amchristii.html

8) You could add sex between consenting adults of the same gender to the list of death penalty crimes

R) Totally disagree on this one - adultery in the OT is a sin that was punishable by death also, but Chrisitans believe we are under a law of grace now since the coming of God's Son and the New Covenant he established.  So therefore, we are ALL sinners deserving of punishment.  Does that mean we'd ignore it & let the homosexual agenda move forward in society just as they want it to?  Nope.  But, not against the individuals - just the promotion of the agenda.

On the rest of them I think you're taking big leaps there and disagree with most of them.
 
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HazyRigby

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Originally posted by JLovesUSo
Hard core inappropriate contentography in any form would be banned...
Can you really say the this is good for our society (and not just from a Christian standpoint...) I think we can easily prove the opposite, but I'm not sure we would "ban" it but rather make it "very difficult" on those trying to push the envelope to push child inappropriate content, inappropriate behavior with animals, and ect. on to society - but I would hope even those who are non-christians would want to stop this.

Umm, Ashi wasn't talking about kiddie inappropriate content. He said "inappropriate contentography in any form..." That includes inappropriate content between two consenting adults marketed FOR adults. I happen to think that this one is probably correct.


...and then share the creationist side of the story as well - not pushing it as a fact but, "this is what the bible says" since the relationship/revelation with/of God is all about faith and trust anyway.

Can you tell me why science classes should be forced to talk about things which have nothing to do with science?

The Constitution would have been amended to state that America is officially a Christian nation

I hate to inform you of this, but it started that way.....we are just trying to keep those who are trying to change it of a Christian nation from doing so.

You know, perhaps you should go and read some of the actual writing that our founding fathers did. Ever read any Thomas Paine? Where would we be if it hadn't been for Common Sense? And Thomas Paine hated Christianity with a passion--he even wrote an excellent book debunking the Bible (Age of Reason). In fact, if you'll do some research, you'll find that a large number of the founding fathers were deists, not Christians. Big difference.

You could add sex between consenting adults of the same gender to the list of death penalty crimes... does that mean we'd ignore it & let the homosexual agenda move forward in society just as they want it to? Nope. But, not against the individuals - just the promotion of the agenda.

What agenda? That silly thing about wanting equal rights and protection under the law? Oh, THAT.
 
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HazyRigby

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From the aforementioned "evil" site: :D

But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, John A. Haught

The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity. --John Adams

I know it will give great offense to the clergy, but the advocate of religious freedom is to expect neither peace no forgiveness from them.--Thomas Jefferson to Levi Lincoln, 1802, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 10:305

If only Jefferson were around today to see what's going on in the Catholic church...

Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear. -- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology.--Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, _Six_Historic_Americans_ by John E. Remsberg

I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible). -- Thomas Paine

Read The Age of Reason. Enough said.

Here's James Madison (this is from Here):

What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.

Still convinced? :)
 
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Rae

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If the Christian Reconstructionists got into power, things would be even worse than Ashibaka mentioned. Witches like me would be killed, because the Reconstructionists would use all the Old Testament laws. All of them. Women would be forbidden to work, too.

Glad to see some fellow death penalty opponents here, though. At least if y'all took over I wouldn't be dead. I might be very unhappy, but I wouldn't die. :)
 
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ashibaka

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Originally posted by hobart schmedly
Thanks again ashibaka, you are great! What do you think about some of these things?

It's good to know that you disagree with nearly all of those items. I, personally, think they all stand at varying degrees of silliness. I think most fundies would only agree with numbers 5 and 7; only the most insane and unreasonable of all Christians could possibly agree with all of them. (Remember, this is the result of a bunch of atheists speculating with no Christians around, so we'd be prone to exaggeration. :) )

Originally posted by JLovesUSo
7) The Constitution would have been amended to state that America is officially a Christian nation

R) I hate to inform you of this, but it started that way.....we are just trying to keep those who are trying to change it of a Christian nation from doing so.

Here's a link with just some of that information: http://www.alliance4lifemin.org/amchristii.html

O brave new world, with such ignorant people in it... too bad Hazy got to this one before me :D
 
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JLovesUSo

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Ok, I'm the "ignorant" one right?

George Washington 1732-1799 - 1st President of the US (1789-1797)... At age 16 helped survey Shenandoah lands for Thomas, Lord Fairfax... Fought in the French and Indian War... Before the American Revolution, served in the Virginia House of Burgesses... Elected Commander in Chief of the Continental Army by the Second Continental Congress in Philadelphia in May 1775... Served in that capacity for six years... Prime mover in the steps leading to the Constitutional Convention at Philadelphia in 1787... He was unanimously elected president after the new Constitution was ratified... Kept America neutral during war between France and England after the French revolution... Wearied of politics, he retired at the end of his second term and retired to Mount Vernon.

After the signing of the peace treaty between America and England, George Washington resigned as Commander in Chief and sent a circular letter to the 13 state legislatures informing them of his resignation, ending with this prayer:

"I now make it my earnest prayer that God will have you and the state over which you preside in His holy protection, that He would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate the spirit of subordination and obedience to government, to entertain a brotherly affection and a love for one another, for their fellow citizens of the United States and particularly for their brethren who have served in the field, and finally that He would be most graciously pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility and peaceful temper of mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our Blessed Religion and without an humble imitation in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation."

Washington was for many years a vestryman at Truro Parish, his local Episcopal Church.
The entry of June 5, 1772, shows Washington and his neighbor, George Mason, the author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights, engaged in parish business, including making arrangements for replacing the front steps of the church, painting its roof and selling church pews to the members as a means of obtaining revenue. The minutes of the meeting also reveal that Washington and George William Fairfax presented the parish with gold leaf to be used to gild letters on "Carved Ornaments" on the altar.14

"To the distinguished character of a Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of a Christian."

"You do well to learn . . . above all the religion of Jesus Christ."

It is factual that President Washington knelt and prayed and read the Bible for one hour every day. His personal prayer book, written in his own handwriting, declares:
"O most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ my merciful loving Father, I acknowledge and confess my guilt, in the week and imperfect performance of the duties of this day."

John Marshall, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court described Washington:
"Without making ostentatious professions of religion, he was a sincere believer in the Christian faith, and a truly devout man."

Nellie Custis, their adopted daughter, who lived with the Washingtons 20 years from childhood to marriage, wrote to Jerod Sparks, a Chaplain of Congress:
"George Washington attended church in Virginia at Alexandria when the weather and roads permitted a ride of ten miles. While serving as president in New York and Philadelphia, he never omitted attendance of church in the morning unless detained by sickness. No one in church attended to the services with more reverential respect. I should have thought it the greatest heresy to doubt his firm belief in Christianity. His life, his writings prove that he was a Christian. ... Is it necessary that anyone should prove that General Washington claimed to be a believer in Christianity? As well may we question his patriotism and his devotion to his country."

John Adams 1735-1826 - 2nd President of US (1797-1801)... First Vice President under Washington... As a delegate to the First and Second Continental Congresses, he led in the movement for independence... During the Revolutionary War he served in France and Holland in diplomatic roles, and helped negotiate the treaty of peace... Minister to the Court of St. James's (1785-1788).

In November 1800, in his second evening in the White House, he wrote his wife:
"Before I end my letter, I pray Heaven to bestow the best of Blessings on this House and all that shall hereafter inhabit it. May none but honest and wise Men ever rule under this roof."

"If we make religion our business, God will make it our blessedness."

"If 'Thou shalt not covet,' and 'Thou shalt not steal,'were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free."

Fast and thanksgiving day proclamation, issued at a time when the nation appeared to be on the brink of a war with France:
Adams urged the citizens to
"acknowledge before God the manifold sins and transgressions with which we are justly chargeable as individuals and as a nation; beseeching Him at the same time, of His infinite grace, through the Redeemer of the World, freely to remit all our offenses, and to incline us, by His Holy Spirit, to that sincere repentance and reformation which may afford us reason to hope for His inestimable favor and heavenly benediction."

On April 19, 1817, Adams wrote a letter to Thomas Jefferson in which he recounted a conversation between Joseph Cleverly and Lemuel Bryant; a schoolmaster and a minister he had known. Disgusted by the petty religious bickering displayed by those two, Adams declared: (The italicized portion is often quoted out of context by revisionist historians.)

"Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!' But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell."

Thomas Jefferson 1743-1826 - 3rd President of the US (1801-1809)... Delegate to second continental congress(1775-76)... Served on committee to draft Declaration of Independence, except for minor revisions by Adams, Franklin and others on the floor, the document was wholly his work... Pushed for a bill (1796) for establishing religious freedom, grounded in the belief that the opinions of man cannot be coerced.

Jefferson was a member of the vestry of his local Anglican church.

From his "Second Inaugural Address" in 1805:
"[We are in the hands of] the God who ... led our fathers, as Israel of old, from their native land and planted them in a country flowing with all the necessaries and comforts of life; who has covered our infancy with His providence and our riper years with His wisdom and power, and to whose goodness I ask you to join in supplications with me that He will so enlighten the minds of your servants, guide their councils, and prosper their measures that whatsoever they do shall result in your good, and shall secure to you the peace, friendship and approbation of all nations."


Addressed to William Canby in 1813:
"Of all systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to be so pure as that of Jesus."

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."

"The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time."

"I hold the precepts of Jesus as delivered by Himself, to be the most pure, benevolent and sublime which have ever been preached to man..."

"To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in the preference to all others."

From his will:
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

James Madison 1751-1836 - 4th President of the US (1801-1809)... Served in Continental Congress (1780-83 & 1787)... In 1776 helped draft a new constitution for Virginia... Served in the Virginia Legislature (1784-86)... Delegate to the Constitutional Convention... Known for his political skills and persuasive logic... Called the "master builder of the constitution" Contributed to the Federalist Papers... Strong advocate for first 10 amendments to the Constitution (Bill of Rights).

"The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded. We've staked the whole future of American civilization not on the power of government -- far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the commandments of God."

"The belief in a God All Powerful, wise and good, is essential to the moral order of the world and to the happiness of man."

"Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. And to the same Divine Author of every good and perfect gift [James 1:17] we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land."
 
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JLovesUSo

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continued......

John Q. Adams - 1767-1848 - 6th President of US (1825-1829)... Massachusetts State Legislative (1802)... Senator from Massachusetts (1803-1808)... US Secretary of State (1817-1825)... House of Representatives: Massachusetts (1831-1848), during which, he was an opponent of slavery... Other Offices: Minister to the Netherlands; Minister to Prussia; Minister to Russia; Minister to Great Britain... By the time he died, he was known as a champion of freedom of speech.

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were ... the general principles of Christianity."

"My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to] ... the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God."

"It is no slight testimonial, both to the merit and worth of Christianity, that in all ages since its promulgation the great mass of those who have risen to eminence by their profound wisdom and integrity have recognized and reverenced Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God."

"... So great is my veneration for the Bible, and so strong my belief, that when duly read and meditated on, it is of all books in the world, that which contributes most to make men good, wise, and happy -- that the earlier my children begin to read it, the more steadily they pursue the practice of reading it throughout their lives, the more lively and confident will be my hopes that they will prove useful citizens to their country, respectable members of society, and a real blessing to their parents."


"Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and venerated festival returns on this day? Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?"

The last Verse of "The Star Spangled Banner"

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the Heaven-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, for our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

An 1853 House Judiciary Committee conducted a one-year long inquiry when a group petitioned the government to remove Christianity from our government institutions. On March 27, 1854, that Committee brought the following conclusion:

"Had the people, during the revolution, a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that revolution would have been strangled in its cradle... At the time of the adoption of the Constitution and its amendments, the universal sentiment was that Christianity should be encouraged, but not any one sect... In this age, there is no substitute for Christianity... That was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants."

Two months later, The House Committee added these words to their previous ones:

"The great, vital and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and the divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

Alexander Hamilton 1755-1804
"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

 
 
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JLovesUSo

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yet but continued.....

The Honorable John Jay was the original Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, appointed by George Washington. He was one of three men most responsible for drafting the Constitution. The Honorable John Jay was therefore perhaps more familiar with our Constitution than any U.S. Supreme Court Justice since, and yet he saw nothing "unconstitutional" in making a statement such as this:

Actual Words of John Jay:
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty-- as well as the privilege and interest-- of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

John Hancock - 1737-1793 - Opposed British stamp act... Signer of Declaration of Independence... His signature appears first and is the largest... He lost most of his fortune during the war, having given over $100,000 to the cause of freedom... Member of Continental Congress (1775-1780)... Served as its president (1775-1777).

A portion of his proclamation calling the state to prayer and thanksgiving issued on 10/15/1791 while serving as governor of Massachusetts:
"And pray especially that universal happiness can be established in the world and that all may bow to the scepter of our Lord Jesus Christ and that the whole Earth may be filled with his glory."

Said while president of the Continental Congress:
"Let us humbly commit our righteous cause to the great Lord of the Universe.

Noah Webster 1758-1843 - Served in the American revolution... His grammatical Institute of the English Language in 3 parts-speller, grammar, and reader-was the first of many publications that made him for many years the chief American Authority on English... Wrote in 1785 Sketches of American Policy proposing the adoption of a constitution... His work, The American Dictionary of the English Language (1820) helped standardize American pronunciation.

"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His Apostles.... This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government."

"All the miseries and evils which men suffer from - vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible...."

"It is the sincere desire of the writer [Noah Webster] that our citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament or the Christian religion."

"It is extremely important to our nation, in a political as well as religious view, that all possible authority and influence should be given to the scriptures, for these furnish the best principles of civil liberty, and the most effectual support of republican government. The principles of all genuine liberty, and of wise laws and administrations are to be drawn from the Bible and sustained by it's authority. The man therefore who weakens or destroys the divine authority of that book may be accessory to all the public disorders which society is doomed to suffer...."
 
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Annabel Lee

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"The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood, presents a fictionalized account of what would happen if a portion of the U.S. was taken over by Fundamentalists.
It was a truly frightening book. About on the same level as Orwells"1984".
It's a story of a totalitarian theocracy as told from the viewpoint of one woman. It's an excellent book and I highly recommend it.
 
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HazyRigby

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This is a small point, JLovesUSO, but I note that neither you nor the site you provided the link to gave us any idea of where we could find these quotes you mentioned. The quotes I referenced--with the exception of the one Adams quote--at least said which letter or book the quotes came from. I'm not saying that they DIDN'T say those things--I'm merely saying that if you're gonna provide us with a bunch of quotes, perhaps you should point out where they came from, yes?

Anyway, even if ALL of the quotes, both religious and non-, that we've provided here are true, at best one can say that the founding fathers were lukewarm on the matter of religion, no? (With, of course, the exception of Paine, who disliked organized religion altogther.) To say that they were "all Christians" is a ridiculous misstatement. In fact, if they were as religious as you seem to imply they are, then wouldn't our country's founding documents be littered with references to the word of God? (If I remember correctly, "endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights" is the most flagrant mention of God out of only a few. Anyone who knows the documents better than I, feel free to enlighten me.) Wouldn't we have ALL of the Ten Commandments as law? When was the last time you were arrested for not honoring your parents or for coveting your sexy neighbor? Indeed, if Christianity were as important to the original lawmakers as you imply, wouldn't they have felt compelled to include all of God's law and not choose which they deemed appropriate? Would ANY orthodox Christian be able to say, "All right. Killing is wrong, but making a law about honoring your parents--that's silly." Doesn't that imply that they valued REASON more than the Bible?
 
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HazyRigby

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Originally posted by Annabel Lee
"The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood, presents a fictionalized account of what would happen if a portion of the U.S. was taken over by Fundamentalists.

That's one of my favorite books! I love Atwood. :) I also enjoyed The Robber Bride.

I agree--a truly frightening book.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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"The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood, presents a fictionalized account of what would happen if a portion of the U.S. was taken over by Fundamentalists.
It was a truly frightening book. About on the same level as Orwells"1984".
It's a story of a totalitarian theocracy as told from the viewpoint of one woman. It's an excellent book and I highly recommend it.
No need for fiction. Read the history books about the fundamentalist take-over of Russia. Lasted about 70 years... killed a bunch of people. Made life unbearable for millions.
Unless you are only talking about theistic fundamentalism… and not including non-theistic fundamentalism like atheism.

He he he

Hobie
 
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I' ud be hittin' the road all the way back from wence I came.

My dear: O Canada.

(should've stayed there in the first place -grumble-)

But hey, I am high tailing it back up there soon anyhow. If THIS happened I would be there near to immediately (soon as I got got canadian citezenship)
 
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ashibaka

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Originally posted by hobart schmedly
No need for fiction. Read the history books about the fundamentalist take-over of Russia. Lasted about 70 years... killed a bunch of people. Made life unbearable for millions.
Unless you are only talking about theistic fundamentalism… and not including non-theistic fundamentalism like atheism.

He he he


I don't know if you could call Communism atheism or theism... if my memory of "Animal Farm" serves me right, they relied on both. :sorry: The idea of a supreme authority (be it God, Hitler, or Stalin), in general, shouldn't be applied to government.

By the way, JLovesUSo , I think the best evidence that the United States is not a Christian nation is in the Constitution. The only time God is mentioned at all is the somewhat obligatory "In the Year of our Lord 1776". It was a relatively new idea when the country was founded that a nation could be ruled by its own citizens instead of a king selected by God.

If you really are obsessed with Founding Fathers quotes, I will provide you with links if you so desire. But anyone can just go out and Google founding fathers religious. Don't want to force you. :)
 
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coastie

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I don't know if you could call Communism atheism or theism... if my memory of "Animal Farm" serves me right, they relied on both. The idea of a supreme authority (be it God, Hitler, or Stalin), in general, shouldn't be applied to government.

In the CCCP it was atheistic... according to Marx, it was atheistic...

The ideals of the communist party were atheistic. Religion was outlawed.
Supreme autority was Marx's book.
 
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