Are Trinitarians Christians?

Originally posted by Gerry
LOL I am grateful for this thread. When I get a little discouraged or maybe just need a little "pick-me-up" I love to pop in here and read a few threads. I usually go away with a smile good for at least a week before it begins to wear off. Some of the thoughts of the non-Christians!!! lololol

Click to expand...

Well gerry, if all you could come up with in your posts is your little "LOL's and cute little remarks we would appreciate it if you wouldn't post at all.  Unless you have something to contribute in the form of serious discussion! The last I checked trolling isn't allowed in these forums or maybe you haven't read the rules yet?  I suppose that laughing at non believers is your way of leading them to salvation too? Do you laugh at them (LOL) when they ask you questions about the bible?  Is that what you do when you take your group out on a witnessing mission?  I personally would appreciate it if you would refrain from coming into a thread for the only purpose of "poping in" for a laugh or whatever.  If you want to engage in serious discussion, we welcome your thoughts.

Cheers

FR

Hey, how are you doing the Hebrew?

Franklin I have not read the entire post just the last couple of pages. Before I enter into this discussion I want you to bring me up to speed. Do you claim that Jesus was created? If so when? Are you saying that Jesus is not deity? From what I have read so far the discussion seems to be concetrated on Jesus but I would also like to know what you think the HS is. Do you think its just a active force of God? This will help me greatly to know what I need to post about if you will answer these questions.

Thanks

Oh Dear Me Franklin. I am so sorry I have done you wrong. You must forgive my ineptness. I will go and leave you to teach Bible and set a Christian example to the non-believers in this forum. I am sure if you need my help you will let me know, eh?

Originally posted by franklin
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17) Taken from previous post

* snip*
Get the picture OS?  Any questions? Or if you can show me where Jesus teaches the trinity, by all means, be my guest. As you can see, I barely touched the surface! 
 [/color] 
  

Click to expand...

You did not answer my question. "If it were true then Jesus himself would have taught it!" Where does Jesus or anyone else in the Bible state or imply that if Jesus did not mention a specific, thought, idea, on concept it is not true? Hoo boy looks like we are going to have a fun time, "silver bullet" "Get the picture."

It is often said that the Trinity is a pagan concept. The only place an actual Trinity, i.e. Triunity, one God manifest in three persons can be found is pre-Christian Judaism. And my source is the Jewish Encyclopedia.

The Cabala, on the other hand, especially the Zohar, its fundamental work, was far less hostile to the dogma of the Trinity, since by its speculations regarding the father, the son, and the spirit it evolved a new trinity, and thus became dangerous to Judaism. Such terms as ‘matronita,’ ‘body’, ‘spirit’ occur frequently (e.g. ‘Tazria,’ ed. Polna iii, 43b); so that Christians and converts like Knorr von Rosenroth, Reuchlin, and Rittangel found in the Zohar a confirmation of Christianity and especially the dogma of the Trinity (Jellinck, ‘Die Kabbalah’ p. 250, Leipsic, 1844 {transl. of Franck’s ‘La Kabbale,’ Paris 1843}) Reuchlin sought on the basis of the Cabala the words ‘Father, Son, and Holy Ghost’ in the second word in the Pentateuch, as well as in Ps. cxviii, 22 (ib. p. 10) while Johann Kemper, a convert , left in manuscript a work en[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]led ‘Matteh Mosheh,’ which treats in its third section of the harmony of the Zohar with its doctrine of the Trinity (Zettersteen, ‘Verzeichniss der Hebraeischen und Armamaeischen Handschriften zu Upsala.’ P. 16, Lund, 1900). The study of the Cabala led the Frankists to adopt Christianity, but the Jews have always regarded the doctrine of the Trinity as one irreconcilable with the spirit of the Jewish religion and its monotheism.

Isadore Singer ed., The Jewish Encyclopedia , KTAV Publishing, 1901, vol. 12, p. 261.

Click to expand...

“But orthodox Judaism rejected the Trinity!” They certainly did! And those same orthodox Jews were main players in the murder of Jesus and rejected Jesus, as the Messiah, even to the point of calling him a b#stard, in the Talmud. So if we are going to use orthodox Judaism as a criteria then we also have to reject Jesus, as well.

In the begining, was who? And, who was God? Through whom were all things created? And who became flesh and dwelt among us?

Originally posted by franklin
Well gerry, if all you could come up with in your posts is your little "LOL's and cute little remarks we would appreciate it if you wouldn't post at all.  Unless you have something to contribute in the form of serious discussion! The last I checked trolling isn't allowed in these forums or maybe you haven't read the rules yet?  I suppose that laughing at non believers is your way of leading them to salvation too? Do you laugh at them (LOL) when they ask you questions about the bible?  Is that what you do when you take your group out on a witnessing mission?  I personally would appreciate it if you would refrain from coming into a thread for the only purpose of "poping in" for a laugh or whatever.  If you want to engage in serious discussion, we welcome your thoughts.

Cheers

FR

Click to expand...

Actually, Gerry is not in any violation of forum rules with that post.

Rule #2: No Trolling

You will not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of this forum. This will include any new user with less than 50 posts starting a "discretionable" topic - i.e. a topic not suitable for children. This will also include posts that put down Christianity in general or any posts considered as blasphemy by staff (this is a CHRISTIAN FORUMS site), or posts that put down another Christian group or denomination. This includes links to websites in profiles and signatures.


John

Originally posted by SCJ
Hey, how are you doing the Hebrew?

Click to expand...

”Are you talking to me?” Robert De Niro , Taxi Driver There are two ways, One, using the ISO numbers. Hebrew is 1488 aleph א to 1514 Tau ת. Preface each number with &# and ; at the end of each number. Enter number from left to right, e.g. for Yeshua yod-shin-waw-ayin, 1497-1513-1493-1506, the system will reverse them and print ayin-waw-shin-yod ישוע. I recommend using (size=3), notice how small the letters are compared to ישוע.

The other way is use (font=bwhebl), most windows PCs have this font, type the appropriate character from the keyboard. End the font with (/font), replace ( with square brackets. If I do that everything between the Vb codes “font=” and “/font” will be Hebrew.

Greek ISO numbers are in the 900 range. The Vb code for Greek is (font=symbol) most PCs have that font. E.g. IesouV. Place font codes closest to the text, and size and other codes outside the font codes.

Comments on the Trinity foreshadowed in the Old Testament.

Isa 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

In this passage the (1) LORD who laid the foundation of the earth, who was from the time of the beginning, speaks, “and now (2) the Lord GOD, and (3) his Spirit, hath sent me.” One LORD GOD sent a second LORD and his Spirit!

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

The (1) LORD rained down fire from the (2) LORD, out of heaven.

I can already see the argument. “Well, that only means the LORD sent himself or the LORD sent down fire from himself, etc., etc.” The Trinity interpretation, and my belief, is that these verses, as do all scriptures, mean exactly what they say. Unless God or one of the Biblical writers specifically states elsewhere that it has another, figurative, spiritual, etc. meaning. And I know that there is no other verse of scripture, which addresses these two passages specifically.

Did Moses and Isaiah make a mistake when they wrote these verses? Did they mean something else? As can be seen from the passages, below, both Moses and Isaiah, and other Bible writers, wrote the “LORD/God himself/myself”, many times. So unless we have clear and convincing proof we must accept that these verses, inspired by God, mean exactly what they say. Had Moses or Isaiah intended to say “God himself” they would have done so, as they did in many other places.

1 Sa 3:21 And the LORD appeared again in Shiloh: for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD

It does not say, “the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by “his word!” As can be seen by the several verses I have quoted, below, and there are many others, Moses, Isaiah, and the other writers, often speak of the LORD and his word. Therefore, unless there is a mistake in God’s word, we must accept this as stating that the LORD, of “the word of the LORD” is somehow distinct from the LORD who is revealed. Do I need to point out that the Trinity interpretation, and mine, is it means exactly what it says.

“2. God Is At Least Two Elohim and YHVH Applied to Two Personalities.
As if to even make the case for plurality stronger, there are situations in the Hebrew Scriptures where the term Elohim is applied to two personalities in the same verse. One example is:

Psalm 45:7-8 "Thy throne, which is of God, shall stand for ever and ever: The sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

It should be noted that the first Elohim is being addressed and the second Elohim is the God of the first Elohim. And so God's God has anointed Him with the oil of gladness.
A second example is:

Hosea 1:7 "But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by Jehovah their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses nor by horsemen."

So the Targum (Aramaic translation), “and I will save them by the Word of the Lord their God;''

The speaker is Elohim who says He will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by the instrumentality of Jehovah, their Elohim. So Elohim number one will save Israel by means of Elohim number two.

Not only is Elohim applied to two personalities in the same verse, but so is the very name of God. One example is:

Genesis 19:24 "Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven."

Clearly we have Jehovah number one raining fire and brimstone from a second Jehovah who is in heaven, the first one being on earth. A second example is:

Zechariah 1:17 Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.

“the LORD of hosts” refers to the cities of Israel as “My cities”, in the first person, but speaking in the third person says “the LORD” somehow distinct from Himself, shall comfort Zion. He does not say “I will yet comfort Zion.”

Zech 2:8-9 "For thus saith Jehovah of Hosts; for your glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you; for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. For, behold, I will shake my hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that Jehovah of hosts hath sent me."

Again we have one Jehovah sending another Jehovah to perform a specific task. The author of the Zohar sensed plurality in the Tetragrammaton ("Personal Name of God of Israel," written in Hebrew Bible with the four consonants י ה ו ה/YHWH. Pronunciation of name has been avoided since at least 3rd c. B.C.E.; initial substitute was 'Adonai' ('the Lord'), itself later replaced by 'ha-Shem' ('the Name'). The name Jehovah is a hybrid misreading of the original Hebrew letters with the vowels of 'Adonai.' Encyclopedia Dictionary of Judaica Page 593) and wrote:

"Come and see the mystery of the word YHVH: there are three steps, each existing by itself: nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three heads, which are united into one, and that head is three exalted. The Ancient One is described as being three: because the other lights emanating from him are included in the three. But how can three names be one? Are they really one because we call them one? How three can be one can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit." (Zohar, Vol. III, pg 288, Vol. II, pg. 43)”

http://www.familybiblestudy.net/b2_s10_c2.htm

Am 6:8 The Lord GOD hath sworn by himself, saith the LORD the God of hosts, I abhor the excellency of Jacob, and hate his palaces: therefore will I deliver up the city with all that is therein.

One, “The LORD the God of hosts” is speaking about a second, “The Lord GOD” in the third person, somehow distinct from Himself.

De 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself , above all the nations that are upon the earth.

De 28:9 The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself , as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways.

De 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

Jos 22:23 That we have built us an altar to turn from following the LORD, or if to offer thereon burnt offering or meat offering, or if to offer peace offerings thereon, let the LORD himself require it;

1 Sa 3:21 And the LORD appeared again in Shiloh: for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.

1 Sa 10:19 And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands.

2 Ch 13:12 And, behold, God himself is with us for our captain, and his priests with sounding trumpets to cry alarm against you. O children of Israel, fight ye not against the LORD God of your fathers; for ye shall not prosper.

Ps 93:1 The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself : the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.

Ps 113:5 Who is like unto the LORD our God, who dwelleth on high, {dwelleth...: Heb. exalteth himself to dwell}

Ps 135:4 For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself , and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

Ps 135:14 For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent himself concerning his servants.

Pr 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself : yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself ; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.

Isa 44:23 Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Ho 5:6 They shall go with their flocks and with their herds to seek the LORD; but they shall not find him; he hath withdrawn himself from them.

Isa 33:10 Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself ;

Jer 22:5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself , saith the LORD, that this house shall become a desolation.

Jer 49:13 For I have sworn by myself , saith the LORD, that Bozrah shall become a desolation, a reproach, a waste, and a curse; and all the cities thereof shall be perpetual wastes.

Eze 14:7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:

Eze 14:7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:

Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself ; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

1 Sa 1:23 And Elkanah her husband said unto her, Do what seemeth thee good; tarry until thou have weaned him; only the LORD establish his word.
1 Ki 2:4

1 Ki 8:20 And the LORD hath performed his word that he spake, and I am risen up in the room of David my father, and sit on the throne of Israel, as the LORD promised, and have built an house for the name of the LORD God of Israel. 1 Ki 8:20

2 Ch 6:10 The LORD therefore hath performed his word that he hath spoken: for I am risen up in the room of David my father, and am set on the throne of Israel, as the LORD promised, and have built the house for the name of the LORD God of Israel. 2 Ch 10:15 Ps 56:4 Ps 147:18

Click to expand...

Very good OldS. I would like to add one of my favorite OT verse that goes along with you are saying.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer
the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Notice both of these are agreeing with this and saying it.

Franklin where did you go? Are you going to answer my questions?

Originally posted by edpobre
Friends,

Most Trinitarians (those who believe that there is only ONE God in THREE persons - some call it a TRIUNE God) assert that they are firm BELIEVERS of the Bible and of Jesus. Some even go to the extent of CLAIMING that Trinitarians ALONE are Christians and NON-Trinitarians are NOT!

Can Trinitarians show Biblical proof that they are Christians while NON-Trinitarians are NOT? Please vote!

Ed

Click to expand...

I personally believe in the triune nature of God. Plenty of Scripture supports this, as eloquently pointed out in this thread.

I'll be the last one to claim to have it all figured out. I can't even comprehend 'eternity', let alone the nature of God.

("For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.")

John

Originally posted by cougan
Franklin I have not read the entire post just the last couple of pages. Before I enter into this discussion I want you to bring me up to speed. Do you claim that Jesus was created? If so when? Are you saying that Jesus is not deity? From what I have read so far the discussion seems to be concetrated on Jesus but I would also like to know what you think the HS is. Do you think its just a active force of God? This will help me greatly to know what I need to post about if you will answer these questions. 

Click to expand...

Hi cougan, Well, the way I look at the deity of Christ was that he was God's only begotten Son. I don't look at it as referring to the trinity. Scripture uses both begotten and creation to describe Jesus. These are both different terms to describe Jesus. He was begotten, conceived in Marys womb as is stated in scripture. It depends on what you mean by His deity.  If what you are implying is that He was God in the womb of Mary, that is not scriptural. His humanity is equally important also in that He was fully man but not fully God as is so commonly defined by the teaching of the trinity. John taught that it is a serious error to deny the humanity of Christ:

I John 4:3, "Every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come."

God's spirit refers to His power, which reflects His "mind" in a very broad way. Since God's spirit is His mind and power, then there is no way that a mind or power can be a person. God's spirit includes His love, as part of His character, and also refers to His power, but in no way can it refer to a person who is separate from Him. I hope I answered your questions and I look forward to hearing back from you soon.  Thanks for posting.

FR

 

Originally posted by cougan
Franklin I have not read the entire post just the last couple of pages. Before I enter into this discussion I want you to bring me up to speed. Do you claim that Jesus was created? If so when? Are you saying that Jesus is not deity? From what I have read so far the discussion seems to be concetrated on Jesus but I would also like to know what you think the HS is. Do you think its just a active force of God? This will help me greatly to know what I need to post about if you will answer these questions.

Click to expand...

Franklin has given you his anti-Trinitarian response now for the Trinitarian response, which btw is supported by the early church, ca. 70 AD thru 325 AD.

Why do Trinitarians refer to the Holy Ghost/Spirit as a person distinct from the Father and the Son? Because the Holy Spirit does all these individual, personal, activities, distinct from the Father and the Son!

The Holy Spirit independently and autonomously; comforts, reveals, bears witness, helps, has a mind, loves, leads, makes intercession, speaks, anoints, gives utterance (causes to speak), can be tempted, bids (tells, instructs); approves, suffers (permits) and forbids actions; searches hearts and consciences, can be insulted, can be lied to, can be grieved, can be quenched, bears witness; can be blasphemed and spoken against, distinct from the son; teaches, thinks, witnesses, sanctifies, sends and is sent, reveals, loves, and ordains to office.

These are all characteristics of a person, not an impersonal force, energy, power, etc. Here is a list of many of the scriptures which attribute these personal characteristics to the Holy Spirit.

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities:

Ro 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit,

Ro 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit,

Mt 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit

Mt 10:20 the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Lu 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted,

Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Ac 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?

Ac 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip,

Ac 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him,

Ac 11:12 And the Spirit bade (told, instructed) me go with them

Ac 16:7 but the Spirit suffered them not.

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,

Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: the Spirit itself maketh intercession

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things,

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly

Heb 10:29 and hath done despite (insult) unto the Spirit of grace?

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness,

1 Jon 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;

Re 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit,

Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost,

Mr 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Lu 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost,

Lu 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost

Lu 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance

Ac 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Ac 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Ac 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

Ac 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,

Ac 21:11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost,

Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying,

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say,

Click to expand...

Originally posted by franklin
Well, the way I look at the deity of Christ was that he was God's only begotten Son.

Click to expand...

Excellent. Perhaps you could lend some insight to the "Sons of God" thread.

Meanwhile, is it simple coincidence that pagan trinitarian beliefs were pervasive in the society that spawned early Christiananity? For example, is it coincidence that attempts to defend some semblance of monotheism by Aruis of Antioch, were countered by was Athanasius of Alexandria, the vanguard of trinitarianism and a guy well versed in Egyptian mysticism involving the pagan Egyption trinity?

Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
Excellent. Perhaps you could lend some insight to the "Sons of God" thread.

Meanwhile, is it simple coincidence that pagan trinitarian beliefs were pervasive in the society that spawned early Christiananity? For example, is it coincidence that attempts to defend some semblance of monotheism by Aruis of Antioch, were countered by was Athanasius of Alexandria, the vanguard of trinitarianism and a guy well versed in Egyptian mysticism involving the pagan Egyption trinity?

Click to expand...

Hi RD, thanks for your insightful comments..... perhaps you can send me the link to that one, "Sons of God" ?  Is that a thread in this forum? 

PS, RD, I found your thread, sons of god..... 



fr

Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
Excellent. Perhaps you could lend some insight to the "Sons of God" thread.

Meanwhile, is it simple coincidence that pagan trinitarian beliefs were pervasive in the society that spawned early Christiananity? For example, is it coincidence that attempts to defend some semblance of monotheism by Aruis of Antioch, were countered by was Athanasius of Alexandria, the vanguard of trinitarianism and a guy well versed in Egyptian mysticism involving the pagan Egyption trinity?

Click to expand...

I'm sorry I don't believe I saw any evidence or documentation for any of those assertions. Perhaps you could give us the name of a book or two, by an acknowledged scholar in this subject area. For example, The History of Doctrines, Reinhold Seeberg, Early Christian Doctrine, J.N.D. Kelly, and A History of Christianity, Kenneth Scott Latourette, all of whom exhaustively document their histories, from ancient sources, and all of whom have never heard of your "pervasive pagan trinitarian beliefs" or "Egyptian trinity"

By trinity I do not mean some modern day arbitrary grouping of three pagan deities, I mean, as I said before, one God manifest as three. The only place a Trinity exists outside of Christianity was pre-Christian Judaism and I did document that from the Jewish Encyclopedia.

Had God manifest Himself as a man before ? How about all the back to Genesis.

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man
with him until the breaking of the day. 
                      
                    
Gen 32:25  
And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he
touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of
Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 
                      
                     
Gen 32:26  
And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 
                      
                     
Gen 32:27  
And he said unto him, What [is] thy name? And he said, Jacob. 
                      
                     
Gen 32:28  
And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 
                      
                     
Gen 32:29  
And Jacob asked [him], and said, Tell [me], I pray
thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore [is] it [that]
thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
                      
                     
Gen 32:30  
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I
have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Originally posted by OldShepherd

By trinity I do not mean some modern day arbitrary grouping of three pagan deities, I mean, as I said before, one God manifest as three. The only place a Trinity exists outside of Christianity was pre-Christian Judaism and I did document that from the Jewish Encyclopedia.

Click to expand...

All Gods are three: Amun, Re, Ptah: they have no equal. His name is hidden as Amun, he is Re before [men], and his body is Ptah. [the Egyptian trinity from the Leiden papyrus - RD]

-- Hornung, Erik; Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt: The One and the Many

Click to expand...

... it is probable that the worship of the Egyptian triad Isis, Serapis, and the child Horus helped to familiarize the ancients with the idea of a triune God and was not without influence in the formulation of the doctrine of the trinity as set forth in the Nicene and Athanasian creeds.

-- Laing, Gordon Jennings; Survivals of Roman Religion

Click to expand...

In the unity of that One, Only God of the Babylonians there were three persons, and to symbolize that doctrine of the trinity they employed ... the equilateral triangle, just as it is well known the Romish Church does at this day.

-- Hislop, Alexander; The Two Babylons: Or, the Papal Worship

Click to expand...

The genius of Plato, informed by his own meditation or by the traditional knowledge of the priests of Egypt, had ventured to explore the mysterious nature of the Deity.

When he had elevated his mind to the sublime contemplation of the first self-existent, necessary cause of the universe, the Athenian sage was incapable of conceiving how the simple unity of his essence could admit the infinite variety of distinct and successive ideas which compose the model of the intellectual world; how a Being purely incorporeal could execute that perfect model, and mould with a plastic hand the rude and independent chaos.

The vain hope of extricating himself from these difficulties, which must ever oppress the feeble powers of the human mind, might induce Plato to consider the divine nature under the threefold modification-of the first cause, the reason or Logos, and the soul or spirit of the universe. His poetic imagination sometimes fixed and animated these metaphysical abstractions; the three archial or original principles were represented in the Platonic system as three Gods, united with each other by a mysterious and ineffable generation.

-- Gibbon; Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire

Click to expand...

Originally posted by OldShepherd
Franklin has given you his anti-Trinitarian response now for the Trinitarian response, which btw is supported by the early church, ca. 70 AD thru 325 AD.

Why do Trinitarians refer to the Holy Ghost/Spirit as a person distinct from the Father and the Son? Because the Holy Spirit does all these individual, personal, activities, distinct from the Father and the Son!

The Holy Spirit independently and autonomously; comforts, reveals, bears witness, helps, has a mind, loves, leads, makes intercession, speaks, anoints, gives utterance (causes to speak), can be tempted, bids (tells, instructs); approves, suffers (permits) and forbids actions; searches hearts and consciences, can be insulted, can be lied to, can be grieved, can be quenched, bears witness; can be blasphemed and spoken against, distinct from the son; teaches, thinks, witnesses, sanctifies, sends and is sent, reveals, loves, and ordains to office.

These are all characteristics of a person, not an impersonal force, energy, power, etc. Here is a list of many of the scriptures which attribute these personal characteristics to the Holy Spirit.

[/size]

Click to expand...

Re-read what you wrote...these are CHARACTERISTICS of a PERSON!!!. How is it that these are not characteristics of the G-d who IS a spirit.

peace and blessings
assalamu alaikum
shalom aleykom

2CO 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Paul's Trinity blessing.