Psalms 7 and the crusifixion?

Hello my good friend Anatolian!

I'm a Baha'i but I think you should consider Psalm 22 where it says:


1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother’s breasts. 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother’s belly.

11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the lion’s mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. 31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

....................................

It seems to me that this Psalm has been more cited as referring to a prophecy of the crucifixion than others and you could say that the reference of Christ on the cross may be a short hand way of announcing how it was fulfilled by the Lord Jesus.

- Art

[SIZE=+1]The Crucifixion of Jesus foretold in Psalm 22[/SIZE]


One of the most remarkable, indeed overwhelming, evidences of the truth of the Christian faith is the many predictions of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ in passages of the Old Testament dating up to a thousand years before the event. There are two psalms which we will look at in this chapter where both are foretold. We will begin with those that foretell the crucifixion. Psalm 22, one of the greatest Messianic psalms, will be the first example. It begins:The psalm is a unique one. It is one of the psalms of David, yet it touches distress, even to death, in a way the great Shepherd-King of Israel could never have personally known. The first words have an echo in the only outcry of Jesus from the cross mentioned in the Gospels of Matthew and Mark. In the midst of the crucifixion, at the depth of his despair, he cried out, "Eli, Eli, lama sabach-thani," meaning the same as the first words of the psalm, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34) Jesus would have known the words of the Old Testament text, but it is hardly likely that he was merely repeating them from memory. He cried out from the depth of his eternal soul, and the cry was one which has been described as the strangest which ever went from earth to heaven.
This was the only time Jesus ever prayed, "My God, my God." On all other occasions he called out, "My Father" (Matthew 26:42), or just "Father" (John 12:28), or spoke of him as the "heavenly Father" (Matthew 5:48, Luke 11:13). At this one moment, one of the holiest and most sacred in all human history, he could only cry, "My God." At no point in all history did the Son of God look less like the image of his Father in his eternal glory. More importantly, there was never a time when he felt so cut off and forcibly separated from Him, yet at no other time was the wondrous love of the Father for his followers more splendidly revealed than at this point when both Father and Son endured the anguish and intense pain of separation from each other.

This first verse of Psalm 22 is holy ground and Muslims need to be brought reverently to see its implications. It sets the tone for the rest of the psalm. We will look at particular verses in it that have New Testament parallels. The next text is this one:
The chief priests who stood at the foot of the cross thought they had finally gained their victory over Jesus. As he hung there, helpless, they unwittingly fulfilled the words of this very text when they mocked Jesus and declared:
This is just one instance where you can show Muslims that predictions about the crucifixion of Jesus were fulfilled to the letter a thousand years later. David continues with these words:
This is a perfect description of the anguish of a man being crucified, yet crucifixion was unknown during the time of David. He goes on "They have pierced my hands and feet" (v.16), another specific anticipation of the crucifixion. This psalm is not merely an expression of David’s anguish in a time of trouble, it is a remarkable anticipation of the crucifixion of the Messiah, the eternal Son of David, to follow. One verse particularly stands out in the psalm:It is not immediately obvious that this is a striking riddle, an exception to the usual style of Hebrew poetry. For the sake of emphasis the same point is often made in Hebrew poetical texts in different words which basically have the same meaning. For example: "Your name, O Lord, endures for ever, your renown, O Lord, throughout all ages" (Psalm 35:13). "Name" and "renown" are synonyms, as are "for ever" and "throughout all ages." The Psalms are saturated with this form of expression. Psalm 22:18, however, is a strange exception. Garments and raiment are synonyms, they are both descriptions for general clothing. Yet "divide" and "cast lots" are antonyms, opposite terms with expressly different meanings.

No Hebrew could ever have worked this riddle out, especially in its unique form of speech. To divide means to separate, but to cast lots means to keep the garment together. What could this have meant? How could they cast lots for his garment, yet at the same time separate it? It seems like a contradiction. For ten centuries no Hebrew scholar could possibly have given the answer, but a simple explanation appears in this brief narrative about the way the Roman soldiers handled the clothing of Jesus at the foot of his cross:Now the riddle finally makes sense. The soldiers cast lots for the tunic Jesus had worn but divided his other garments among them. John expressly says that this simple activity of the Roman soldiers was a direct fulfilment of Psalm 22:18 (John 19:24). The soldiers could hardly have been aware that they were directly fulfilling a prophecy made a thousand years earlier.
We will return to the psalm, but at this point you can see how effectively you can witness to the crucifixion of Jesus through specific predictions made centuries earlier. Not just one prediction but many are made in detail in the first twenty-one verses of the psalm. It’s a tremendous source of convincing proofs of the crucifixion event.

Similar Prophecies in Psalm 69

A very similar psalm of David, Psalm 69, also contains a number of specific predictions of the crucifixion, some in fine detail. It begins:
The dryness in his throat is another typical experience of a man crucified. Once again we behold a victim in terrible distress as his life ebbs away. Jesus himself applied the following words to himself, saying:
Here again you have specific material to show Muslims that the crucifixion, which the Qur’an denies (Surah 4:157), was specifically predicted in great detail in the Psalms (Zabur) of David a thousand years earlier. David proceeds, in his own anguish, to confess his folly and wrongdoings (v.5) which Jesus would take on himself on the cross, but the whole unfolding drama again takes on Messianic dimensions in these words:
The Apostle Paul also applies these words directly to Jesus when he says:The next text also has a direct sequel in the life of Jesus: "For zeal for your house has consumed me" (Psalm 69:9). When Jesus drove the moneychangers out of the Temple and poured out their coins, overturning their tables, and told the Jews not to make his Father’s house a house of trade, his disciples remembered that it was written "zeal for your house will consume me" (John 2:17).

The psalm continues with growing cries of anguish as the victim nears his death. "I am in distress," he cries (v.17), "I am in despair. I looked for pity but there was none, and for comforters, but I found none" (v.20). Then comes another very specific statement which has a remarkable fulfilment at the foot of Jesus’ cross:When Jesus cried out from the cross, "I thirst" (John 19:28), a bowl of vinegar stood next to the cross, "so they put a sponge full of vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth" (v.29). It is amazing to see how many predictions of the crucifixion were fulfilled in such detail when Jesus died. Christians have emphatic proofs of the truth of the death of Jesus on the cross in these exceptional passages. Psalm 69:25 is also quoted in Acts 1:20 as a deliberate prediction of the desolate end of Judas Iscariot for betraying Jesus. It is very useful, in Muslim homes, to go slowly through both psalms (22 and 69) and to draw Muslims to the very experience of the Son of God as he hung there that fateful Friday.

Both psalms bring the agony to a climax as the suffering victim finally breathes his last and expires. The first concludes the anguish in these heart-rending cries:The second also builds up to a crescendo as the distress and suffering reach their peak. The psalmist cries out " But I am afflicted and in pain; let your salvation, O God, set me on high" (Psalm 69:29). There the anguish ends in both psalms, yet the narrative goes on. The tone changes, the confidence returns, and in perfect health the sufferer praises God for his redemption from the pit.

The Resurrection of Jesus in both Psalms

Not only is the crucifixion of Jesus foretold in these two psalms but we also find clear evidences of his resurrection as well. As we have seen, Jesus cried out to his Father on the cross in the exact words Psalm 22 begins with, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" The psalm then covers the anguish and pain of a man in great distress, who had committed his cause to the Lord, and who prayed to him for deliverance. The suffering part of the psalm reaches a final crescendo in the heart-rending cries, "O Lord, be not far off! Hasten to my aid! Deliver my soul from the sword. Save my afflicted soul!" (vs.19-21) Suddenly the tone of the psalm changes:There is a dramatic change here, an immediate transformation. Now the psalmist speaks confidently, resolutely, triumphantly, and with complete composure. He has triumphed over his affliction. He calls on all true believers to praise God, to glorify him and stand in awe of him. For, he declares, the Lord has not hidden his face from his affliction but has heard when he cried to him! (Psalm 22:23-24) The rest of the psalm follows the same pattern - triumph, praise and complete composure. The afflicted one, whose anguish increased to the point of total desolation, is now delivered!
The resurrection of Jesus is the scene foreshadowed in the second part of the psalm. No one reading the whole song can miss the sharp contrast between the victim’s growing, intensifying anguish (vs.1-21), and the victor’s glory and triumph (vs.22-31). It is a vivid picture of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. You can point out to Muslims that the words of Psalm 22:22 quoted above are expressly applied to Jesus in Hebrews 2:12. You may not be able to work through this line of witness with obstinate Muslims who will seek only to ridicule and refute everything you say, but with seeking Muslims whose eyes and hearts are opened, this subject is a powerful witness of the fact that Jesus Christ is the ultimate figurehead, God’s chosen Messiah, whose death and resurrection were not only prophesied but revealed in the deep, personal emotions that he was destined to experience, no less than a thousand years before these great events occurred.

Psalm 69 follows the exact same pattern, not out of coincidence, but divine intention. Once again, the first part of the psalm (vs.1-29) follows the same pattern of victimisation, leading up to a climax of suffering and anguish. The theme stands out: "Save me, O God! I am in distress. Draw near to me, redeem me. Set me free! I am afflicted and in pain. Let your salvation, O God, set me on high!" (vs.1,17,18,29) Suddenly, as in Psalm 22, the tone and setting change dramatically. Victimisation gives way to victory. The lamb becomes the lion:
Once again, it is a song of praise, in complete composure, in the dawn of victory, that characterises the remaining verses of the psalm (vs.30-36). The suffering servant has become the risen deliverer! Anguish has given way to triumph! Jesus Christ has risen from the dead! Yet the passage in the psalms chosen by the disciples of Jesus more than any other to prove that the resurrection of Jesus from the dead was foretold a millennium earlier is this one:
Once again, this is a psalm of David, but the New Testament aggressively takes it away from him and applies it directly to the person of Jesus Christ. On the day of Pentecost, just after the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the disciples so that they faced the whole Jewish nation with confidence and assurance, Simon Peter declared that, even though they had crucified Jesus by the hands of lawless men, God has raised him from the dead, having loosed the pangs of death, because he could not be held by them (Acts 2:23-24). He then went on to quote this same passage from Psalm 16 and, when he had finished, he declared that everyone knew that David had died, was buried, and that the site of his tomb was well known. So he could not be speaking of himself, but, knowing that God had sworn to him with an oath that one of his descendants would sit on his throne for all eternity, "he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ," that he did not go down to Sheol, nor did his flesh see corruption (Acts 2:29-31). Peter then concluded:Going on to quote Psalm 110:1 ("The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies a stool for your feet."), he added that David had not ascended into heaven and so, in this declaration, foretold the ascension of the Christ, the same Jesus whom they had now betrayed and crucified (Acts 2:34-36).
In all these passages from the Psalms, we have tremendous material to show Muslims that the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension to heaven of Jesus were foretold by David in his Psalms a thousand years before the events happened. Not only were they predicted, but they were outlined in such fine detail that the deepest emotions of the Christ were set out in such detail that you could know exactly what he was experiencing within his eternal soul.

The Deity of Jesus Christ in the Psalms

The fact that Jesus is the eternal Son of God is also foretold in the Psalms of David. Nothing, it appears, was overlooked. The evidences are there for all to see and are sufficient to convince any sincere seeker of the truth. There is, quite simply, no ambiguity in this declaration:We are not speculating when we apply this passage to the Lord Jesus Christ (there hardly appears to be a contender for its application!). The Apostle Paul deliberately applied this text to Jesus in his sermon to the Jews who were gathered together in the synagogue at Antioch in Pisidia on the sabbath day (Acts 13:33). To what angel, another New Testament text enquires, did God ever say "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"? (Hebrews 1:5) The immediately succeeding verses are also applied to Jesus in Acts 4:25-26.

Perhaps the most moving and descriptive passage incorporating a prediction of the deity of the son of David to come is found in another psalm. It begins with these words:
The next verse specifically applies this prophecy to David himself but, like the others we have considered, it soon becomes obvious that this is a double-barrelled prophecy and ultimately applies to the descendant of David to come, who would rule over the throne of God forever, and whom the Jews called the son of David. God speaks and says of this great Messiah to come:
Once again we hear words of triumph and victory as the Son of God, who became the Son of man, takes his eternal throne and establishes complete authority over all the earth. The declaration reaches its climax, and identifies the one of whom it speaks, in these words:
The Qur’an does not say much about David. He is seen as one of the great patriarchs and prophets of old and some Biblical narratives about him are repeated in a somewhat disjointed fashion in the book. But it does say of him:These words are only a shadow of the Christ whose coming, crucifixion, death, resurrection, ascension to glory, and eternal deity David foretold. In these great predictions, hundreds of years before they came to pass, Christians have more than sufficient material to witness to Muslims of who Jesus Christ really was and why he came to earth. God has left us a persuasive record in the songs of David of the Son of God to come, who would cry to him as both his God and Father, and to whom all authority over earth and the heavens would ultimately be given.

Hello.....As we know christians believe David fortold the Messiah in Pslams.I read Psalms but 'unfortunately' I havent seen a prediction for the crusifixion in it.Indeed,seems to me it always says that the Messiah will be saved from murdering,God will save Him.And the betrayer will be punished in His Place...For example

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What about Psalm 22 and Isaiah 22. Jesus fulfilled the whole Bible, including revelation and the "second coming" in that generation. Note the vengeance on the Jewish Nation below the picture.

Isaiah 22:25 'In that day,' says the LORD of hosts, 'the peg that is fastened in the secure place will be removed and be cut down and fall, and the burden that [was] on it will be cut off; for the LORD has spoken.' "

Psalms 22:16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, lions/0738 'ariy digged/03738 karahat my hands and my feet.

Matt 23:32 and ye--ye fill up the measure of your fathers. 33 `Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the Gehenna?

Matthew 24:1 And having gone forth, Yeshua departed from the Temple, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the temple,

Ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Yisra'el will be burying Them, in order to CLEANSE/PURIFY the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says 'Adonay Y@hovih .

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Another possibility is the 'reverse engineering' psyche. The gospel writers heard the rumour of Jesus crucifixion, without witnessing the event themselves, and tried to justify the crucifixion as something prophecised in the jewish books to add credibility to the story.

The gospel of matthew, for example, is full of this 'prophecies' when on closer scrutiny are not 'prophecies at all' or can be termed as 'unfulfilled prophecies' or 'false prophecies'.

Islam_mulia said:

Another possibility is the 'reverse engineering' psyche. The gospel writers heard the rumour of Jesus crucifixion, without witnessing the event themselves, and tried to justify the crucifixion as something prophecised in the jewish books to add credibility to the story.

The gospel of matthew, for example, is full of this 'prophecies' when on closer scrutiny are not 'prophecies at all' or can be termed as 'unfulfilled prophecies' or 'false prophecies'.

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Hi. What does it mean for someone or an animal to be "slaughtered"? That is the meaning of this greek word in revelation and comes from the same Hebrew used in Exodus 12.
Yeshua was the Jew's passover sacrifice whether it happened literally or symbolically.

(Young) Revelation 5:9 and They sing a New Song, saying, `Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because Thou wast Slaughtered/esfaghV <4969>, and didst redeem Us to God in Thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

(Young) Exodus 12:21 And Mosheh calleth for all the elders of Yisra'el, and saith unto them, `Draw out and take for yourselves [from] the flock, for your families, and Slaughter the passover-sacrifice/pecach;

Arthra said:

It seems to me that this Psalm has been more cited as referring to a prophecy of the crucifixion than others and you could say that the reference of Christ on the cross may be a short hand way of announcing how it was fulfilled by the Lord Jesus.

- Art

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I dont quite understand what you are trying to say. Are you pointing out that the above Psalm were the actual prophecy of Jesus' crucifixion, and following the argument of Christians.... or are you saying that the verses were referring to other individual/or other thing not associated with the crucifixion, as most Jews would believe.

Which is which? Or you are still looking at the right opportunity to make your stand.. tha Bahai way?

Baha'is accept the crucifixion of Jesus Christ as it is reported in the Gospels and I believe the Qur'an approaches the subject somewhat differently but does not really contradict it.

Abdul-Baha mentioned Daniel chapter nine as a prophecy that Messiah would be cut off...

Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

- Daniel 9:24-27


Abdul-Baha is reported to have said:

"If His Holiness Christ had not been martyred, His Cause would not have become so famous. When they placed the crown of thorns on the head of Christ, and carried Him around the streets, His Holiness Christ used to see that all the sovereigns of the world were bowing before Him. All the crowns bowed before his crown of thorns. His Holiness Christ used to foresee this. This humiliation was his greatest glory. He saw this crown to be the everlasting sovereignty."

Arthra said:

Baha'is accept the crucifixion of Jesus Christ as it is reported in the Gospels and I believe the Qur'an approaches the subject somewhat differently but does not really contradict it.

Abdul-Baha mentioned Daniel chapter nine as a prophecy that Messiah would be cut off...

Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

- Daniel 9:24-27


Abdul-Baha is reported to have said:

"If His Holiness Christ had not been martyred, His Cause would not have become so famous. When they placed the crown of thorns on the head of Christ, and carried Him around the streets, His Holiness Christ used to see that all the sovereigns of the world were bowing before Him. All the crowns bowed before his crown of thorns. His Holiness Christ used to foresee this. This humiliation was his greatest glory. He saw this crown to be the everlasting sovereignty."

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You are NOT answering my question.

Once again, are you saying Psalm 22 is talking about the prophecy of Jesus crucifixion as some Christians believe.... or a prophecy of something else (Israel?) that some Jews believe?

Some Jews would say the Christians totally misunderstood and twist the OT text to prove the crucifixion... an they have the OT years before Jesus came.

Or are you saying the Jews are wrong in their interpretation and how they read they their scripture?

Or there is a Bahai way of trying every way to accomodate all religions and all humans live happily ever after?

Arthra said:

Baha'is accept the crucifixion of Jesus Christ as it is reported in the Gospels and I believe the Qur'an approaches the subject somewhat differently but does not really contradict it.

Abdul-Baha mentioned Daniel chapter nine as a prophecy that Messiah would be cut off...

Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

- Daniel 9:24-27


Abdul-Baha is reported to have said:

"If His Holiness Christ had not been martyred, His Cause would not have become so famous. When they placed the crown of thorns on the head of Christ, and carried Him around the streets, His Holiness Christ used to see that all the sovereigns of the world were bowing before Him. All the crowns bowed before his crown of thorns. His Holiness Christ used to foresee this. This humiliation was his greatest glory. He saw this crown to be the everlasting sovereignty."

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this is a little off topic, but i do have a question about the "crown of thorns." a new christian belief is that when jesus was being crucified, he didn't have what most people think..




a lot of people however, believe that it was actually a crown (like a king crown) with needles that pointed into his head or something, going 2 inches deep.

so woud that contradict baha'i teaching on "crown of thorns" or?

Anatolian said:

Psalms 7

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Trying to find predictions in Psalms is simply grasping at straws.

Fatima said:

Psalms 22

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Once you place Psalms 22 into its historical context, and textual criticism, and correct translation the ‘foretold’ part simply disappears.
For example:
The Hebrew in Psalms 22:1 is ‘lama azavtani’ which means “Why have you forsaken me.”
Jesus says according to Matthew & Mark is ‘lama sabachthani‘ which means “Why have you slaughtered me.”
Jesus isn’t quoting Psalms.

Arthra said:

anointed one shall be cut off

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The verb for ‘cut off’ refers to the fate of evil people.

Islam_mulia said:

You are NOT answering my question.

Once again, are you saying Psalm 22 is talking about the prophecy of Jesus crucifixion as some Christians believe.... or a prophecy of something else (Israel?) that some Jews believe?

Some Jews would say the Christians totally misunderstood and twist the OT text to prove the crucifixion... an they have the OT years before Jesus came.

Or are you saying the Jews are wrong in their interpretation and how they read they their scripture?

Or there is a Bahai way of trying every way to accomodate all religions and all humans live happily ever after?

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Hello Islam_mulia!

Yes I think Psalm 22 could be a prophecy of the crucifixion of Christ... thats why I posted it and quoted it. Traditionally many have suggested this and I believe Jesus in a sort of short hand way couyld have been referring to this Psalm by quoting the opening lines...not necessarily that God had forsaken Him but in a way of saying how the prophecy had been fulfilled..

You'll recall that in the original post where Anatolian wrote:

"As we know christians believe David fortold the Messiah in Pslams.I read Psalms but 'unfortunately' I havent seen a prediction for the crusifixion in it."

So I was only trying to respond to him and provide my own view on the subject!

Kjf wrote:

"...so would that contradict baha'i teaching on "crown of thorns" or?"

There's no Baha'i teaching requiring people believe in the "crown of thorns".

But the Gospel of Matthew 27:27-31 mentions the crown of thorns ... "having twisted some thorns into a crown they put this on His head.." and so it is also in the Gospel of Mark 15:18.

Regarding the words on the cross about being forsaken they are a transliteration of Aramaic:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Mar&chapter=15&verse=34&strongs=07662&page=1

As to what scholars think about these things, I think we should listen to them and weigh these things.
In friendship,

- Art

Arthra said:

Hello Islam_mulia!

Yes I think Psalm 22 could be a prophecy of the crucifixion of Christ... thats why I posted it and quoted it. Traditionally many have suggested this and I believe Jesus in a sort of short hand way couyld have been referring to this Psalm by quoting the opening lines...not necessarily that God had forsaken Him but in a way of saying how the prophecy had been fulfilled..

You'll recall that in the original post where Anatolian wrote:

"As we know christians believe David fortold the Messiah in Pslams.I read Psalms but 'unfortunately' I havent seen a prediction for the crusifixion in it."

So I was only trying to respond to him and provide my own view on the subject!

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Do you realise that you are using the same standards as Christians to tear the message of the OT into some prophecies of Jesus?

Now, by cuddling the Christians, you are more likely stepping on the Jews, their belief and their scripture. How would you think a Jew would feel if he was told their scripture foretold the coming of a god-man who was later crucified???

Islam_mulia said:

Do you realise that you are using the same standards as Christians to tear the message of the OT into some prophecies of Jesus?

Now, by cuddling the Christians, you are more likely stepping on the Jews, their belief and their scripture. How would you think a Jew would feel if he was told their scripture foretold the coming of a god-man who was later crucified???

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Can you be little more respectfull about the Jew's and CHRIST-ians Savior and Redeemer and not call Him "god-man".
The Son of God/Man would be ok though or even the Lamb of the God.

Reve 13:8 And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb having been slaughtered/esfagmenou <4969> from the foundation/katabolhV <2602> [of the] world/kosmou <2889>;

Ezekiel 1:25 A voice came from above the firmament that [was] over their heads; whenever they stood, they let down their wings. 26 And above the firmament over their heads [was] the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne [was] a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it. 27 Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it;

Reve 1:13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands [One] like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair [were] white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire;

Revelation 2:18 " And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, ' These things says the Son of the God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass:

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