Did Jephtah kill his daughter?

ig3L · Mar 26, 2007

Calminian said:
Yes and he suffered for it. Jeffy, was given victory. There's quite a few differences here, if you read carefully. According to you, Jeff was given victory by God for making a vow both he and God knew to be an abomination. Do you see anything parallel in the Samson account?

Actually, one reasonable reading of the scripture is that he was guaranteed the victory before he made the vow. The vow, whatever it specifically entailed, then, was sinful because it showed that Jephtah doubted God and thought that he would have ot bargain with God to earn his favor.

Calminian · Mar 26, 2007

ig3L said:
Actually, one reasonable reading of the scripture is that he was guaranteed the victory before he made the vow. The vow, whatever it specifically entailed, then, was sinful because it showed that Jephtah doubted God and thought that he would have ot bargain with God to earn his favor.

Which makes the Hebrews author a bit silly for inducting him into the faith hall of fame. :doh:

Calminian · Mar 26, 2007

ContentInHim said:
No, he was actually punished for his rash oath and subsequent sacrifice. Read my post #2.

You know, the Jews didn't get EVERYTHING WRONG! They were reading Judges 1500 years before the early church fathers were even saved. I think I'll go along with their opinions for now!

Um, okay now we're bringing in extra biblical writings to justify the human sacrifice interpretation. And of course we are elevating the ECF writings to scripture. All this to support god-sanctioned human sacrifice. :doh:

You know, if Jeffy's punishment was going to be so bad (cut into tiny pieces as you assert), why not just disobey and spare his daughter from the flames. If he was so cool with disobedience, you'd think that would be a no brainer. How much worse could the punishment be? But I guess that's just one other thing have accept to make this work. Jeff was a complete imbecile. :swoon:

Sorry the lengths people go to make this human sacrifice thing work is nothing short of astounding.

ig3L · Mar 26, 2007

Calminian said:
Um, okay now we're bringing in extra biblical writings to justify the human sacrifice interpretation. And of course we are elevating the ECF writings to scripture. All this to support god-sanctioned human sacrifice. .

Actually, the text itself clearly lends itself to the human-secrifice interpretation. Other interpretations seem to me to apply modern sensitivities to get around an uncomfortable portion of scripture.

But, accepting that there is a controversy as to what the passage means, it is entirely appropriate to look to extrabiblical writings that help to establish (a) what the earliest readers of the passage would have believed it to mean, (b) what tradition has accepted it to mean, and (c) the cultural context which clarifies the meaning. To use such writings is not the same as elevating them to scripture; that is a rather absurd assertion.

Additionally, I don't think that anyone is saying that God approved of human sacrifice. If anything, the question is not whether human sacrifice is okay or whether it is not. This Scripture does not seem to try to answer that question (although other Scriptures clearly forbid human sacrifice). Rather, the question is whether Jephtah violated the Mosiac law (human sacrifice) in fulfilling his vow or whether he did not (offered his daughter for a lifetime of virginity). The message that I have come to glean from the story is that it is wrong to try to bargain your way to God's favor. God showed Jephtah the error in trying to do this, by putting him in a position to sacrifice his daughter. Why he kept his vow, we don't know, but making the vow was clearly irresponsible and sinful on his part . . . and he was punished for it.

ig3L · Mar 26, 2007

Calminian said:
Which makes the Hebrews author a bit silly for inducting him into the faith hall of fame.

The Hebrews passage is a bit confusing to me, I admit. But, I notice that Samson, another "hero" who didn't seem to have a clue, was included as well. Was it for disobeying God to impress a chick or was it for his final act of suicide, by which he defeated the Philistines? I assume it was the latter that got him into the "hall of fame," since the passage itself refers to those "who conquered kingdoms." But, it would be silly to argue that Samson was by any stretch of the imagination a great model of morality and good living.

In the same way, perhaps Jephtah is honored because of his victory over the Ammonites or for resisting the Ephraimites, and the author of Hebrews chose not to dwell on his moral failings, just as with, e.g., Samson and David.

One of the things I love most about scripture is that the "heroes" are often pretty nasty sinners. It helps me to realize, in my own shortcomings, that if God can use them, He can certainly use me . . . despite my sinfulness and occessional rebellion. Accepting that the heroes were not all that morally great reveals what an awesome God we serve.

Calminian · Mar 26, 2007

According to the human sacrifice interpretation advocates, the moral of the story is, if you keep your vow, you will be punished severely, even cut up into small pieces. I would seriously rethink that. Maybe a little satire will help.

Jephthah: Daughter, I’ve made a vow to burn you up. What should I do?

Daughter: Well you better go ahead and do it. That way you’ll ensure we both die horrible deaths.

Jephthah: Yeah you’re right. Isn’t obedience great?

ig3L · Mar 26, 2007

Calminian said:
According to the human sacrifice interpretation advocates, the moral of the story is, if you keep your vow, you will be punished severely, even cut up into small pieces. I would seriously rethink that. Maybe a little satire will help.

Jephthah: Daughter, Ive made a vow to burn you up. What should I do?

Daughter: Well you better go ahead and do it. That way youll ensure we both die horrible deaths.

Jephthah: Yeah youre right. Isnt obedience great?

I think I have already pointed out that the reductio ad absurdum arguements fail when you insist upon applying your own cultural values on people that lived thousands of years ago and did not share those values. In contrast, however, let's consider a more universal value (or more accurately, sin): stubbornness. Jephtah sinned when he made a rash vow to God. God punished Jephtah by making his daughter the subject of the vow. Jephtah, at this point is ticked! (See Judges 11:35). So what does he do? He reacts in stubbornness and rebellion to God and complies with his vow even though this would be a far worse sin. If you think about the way people act today, this is not really that bizarre. Sometimes we will do the most horrible things to avoid admitting we are wrong. Perhaps this was Jephtah's motivation.

The reality is that people who are caught up in their own sin don't think half as rationally as you seem to think they do. If they did, there would be no drunk driving ("Hey, since I already obliterated my brain with alcohol, why don't I try obliterating my body too?!), there would be far less violence ("Rather tha admit that I was wrong earlier when I said those things about your momma (coutry, race, etc), it would be easier just to let you pummel me into the ground!"), and so on. I'm sure we have all sinned, and then looked back on our actions and thought "why in the heck did I just do that?" I'm sure most of us have had times when someone calls us on our sin, and we sin some more to try to make ourselves not look so bad, even though the rational choice would be to face the truth (Consider, e.g., Bill Clinton's "perjury" scandal). Sin is simply not rational.

Incidentially, I don't really think of myself as an advocate for the human sacrifice "interpretation." I sincerely believe that that is the only understanding that is 100% consistent with the text. I really wish I could accept the alternative explanation, because it would be far less challenging, but the text doesn't really seem to lend any support to it IMO.

ContentInHim · Mar 26, 2007

Calminian said:
According to the human sacrifice interpretation advocates, the moral of the story is, if you keep your vow, you will be punished severely, even cut up into small pieces. I would seriously rethink that. Maybe a little satire will help.

Jephthah: Daughter, I’ve made a vow to burn you up. What should I do?

Daughter: Well you better go ahead and do it. That way you’ll ensure we both die horrible deaths.

Jephthah: Yeah you’re right. Isn’t obedience great?

Ummm, nowhere does it say that someone cut him into pieces. It says his limbs FELL off. Nice try, though I don't believe that his tragic end nor his daughter's deserve such flippancy.

MrsJoy · Mar 26, 2007

ig3L said:
Even though this seems like a rather obscure passage to get worked up about, I have struggled with this passage, and I am curious to see what others who have thought about this have concluded. The relevent passages are below:

Judges 11:

Hebrews 11:

It seems pretty clear that the Bible says that Jephtah offered his daughter as a burnt offering (which would involve killing her). But, did God approve? Why is he celebrated in Hebrews, when he clearly violated the Mosaic law? Another theory seems to be that he merely promised his daughter to a life of virginity, but this does not seem consistent with the text. Just curious about others' thoughts on this.

NO
He did NOT kill her.
When one "sacrificed" a person in this way, they were not disobeying God's commands on human sacrifice.

37 But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry."
38 "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.
From this comes the Israelite custom 40 that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.

She was held from marriage.
She was a sacrifice to God Himself and could not be given to another man.
a LIVING sacrifice.

I think we should all dig a little deeper when we find something that appears to go against God's commands like this.

MrsJoy · Mar 26, 2007

ContentInHim said:
Good point - one we read about in this week's Parasha - BUT ....
Samson knew the law also and was dedicated to God in addition and yet he consistently broke the law. Just because a person was a judge doesn't mean that he didn't break the law!

yes, but God would not have commended him for his faith in Hebrews if this were the case.
God does not applaud sin

MrsJoy · Mar 26, 2007

ig3L said:
Actually, the text itself clearly lends itself to the human-secrifice interpretation. Other interpretations seem to me to apply modern sensitivities to get around an uncomfortable portion of scripture.

32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

ok, which part of this confirms that he was sinful??

ig3L · Mar 26, 2007

MrsJoy said:
32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

ok, which part of this confirms that he was sinful??

I think this about covers it:

Romans 3:

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

MrsJoy · Mar 26, 2007

no one is saying that he was sinless.

but he was listed as a mighty man of faith, not a condemned man who had rebelled against God and His commands.

ig3L · Mar 26, 2007

MrsJoy said:
no one is saying that he was sinless.

but he was listed as a mighty man of faith, not a condemned man who had rebelled against God and His commands.

I think I covered this ground earlier when I pointed out that among those listed in Hebrews are people whom we know to have committed quite sinful acts, including adultery (David), murder (David and Moses), drunkenness (Noah), and severe disobedience (Samson). In light of these, to make a rash vow and to engage in human sacrifice seems par for the course. In many ways, Hebrews 11 is a testament to the fact that God is capable of using very broken people to do great things. Nowhere in the chapter does it even suggest that everyone mentioned in the chapter was necessarily a model of morality, only that through their faith, they accomplished great feats.

MrsJoy · Mar 26, 2007

all of whom repented...we don't see J repenting for this act.

ig3L · Mar 26, 2007

MrsJoy said:
all of whom repented...we don't see J repenting for this act.

we don't know that he didn't repent. we really don't know much about him at all except for this one story in the Book of Judges.

we also don't know that repentence is the relevent factor in the mind of the author of Hebrews. that is just speculation, because Hebrews chapter 11 does not mention the sin of any of the men and women listed. It is reasonable to infer that repentence is the key factor, but it is equally reasonable to infer that the author of Hebrews did not mention this factor, because the chapter was not intended to understood as a commentary on the moral character as a whole as much as it is simply a list of examples of specific good things that resulted from acts of faith.

It seems to me that you could paraphrase the chapter as such: "if you have faith, you can do great things. Just look at these examples from Jewish history." If some of the examples came from less than great characters, this would strengthen, rather than weaken the argument that the author is trying to make.

Dvorah27 · Mar 26, 2007

Calminian said:
That's silly. She said she was grieving because she would never marry. This really is easy.

Exactly, it really IS easy, I agree. The Bible says in those few short verses that Jephtha filled his oath. If he did what he said he would do, which the Bible says he did, then he killed her. Its not silly to read the Bible & believe what it says, friend.

catwoman2 · Mar 26, 2007

If you look at other names, you'll see that their sins are not mentioned either. Abraham lied. Sarah laughed in disbelief. Samson lusted after a woman. Moses murdered someone.

But their sins were wiped away because they believed in the coming Messiah--Jesus Christ. Our sins won't be mentioned in heaven, either, because of Christ.

Dvorah27 · Mar 26, 2007

Calminian said:
That's silly. She said she was grieving because she would never marry. This really is easy.

And if Jeffo was met by a female animal do you think he would have offered it as a burnt offering? It is required by the law to be male. Are we really going to assume now he was going to totally violate the law which he knew so well? What if a pig had snuck into the courtyard? Come on guys, think!

Oh, and the point of the scripture is that JEPHTHA was supposed to THINK before speaking. An oath is not to be taken lightly. He should have thought out his oath before making it because God holds people to their oaths. (although there is an out for women if their father or husband learns of the oath they have ... I believe it's a day... to cancel that oath before God) No matter if the oath is not well thought out, God holds man accountable to the oaths they make before him. THAT is the whole point of the story. Do not make an oath in haste.

Dvorah27 · Mar 26, 2007

Calminian said:
Someone needs to lighten up. Do you like Jeffo better?

No, really I don't. I take seriously the word of God, don't you ? I think it is highly disrespectful to mock the word of God in such a manner, not to mention the people of whom you speak. These were actual people that walked this earth & making fun of their names is disrespectful.

Did Jephtah kill his daughter?

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