The Strong Delusion coming on the Earth

Originally posted by camaro540
Chloe

I'm not sure how to respond to you anymore. I think I'm being very clear as to what I'm saying, I'm sorry if I'm not.

To answer your last 3 questions, I do my best to obey the Laws of Yeshua God. Do I break them? Of course I do, I am flesh and blood man, there has been only one who could keep every one of them, and that was Yeshua. I thank God for Yeshua, who washes away my sins!

Yeshua/Jesus said:

If you LOVE me, keep my commandments!

Who was/is Jesus?    Jesus is the living word of who?   The living Word of God.

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD.

And the WORD was made fleshRev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

We see here that the ones who will enter the Kingdom are those who not only keep the faith of Jesus, but THEY THAT KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Who is the lier? Satan is the lier, and the father of lies.

Who is the Tree of Life? Christ Jesus is the tree of life, for without Him is no life, Jesus created life.

I'm sorry if you do not understand, but I'm trying my best to give you truth.

Patrick

Click to expand...

 

Camaro

So you think that Jesus was was referring to the law when He said, If you love me keep my commandments?  The Scripture CLEARLY teaches that NO FLESH will be justified by the deeds of the law, in His sight.  We stand justified because of Jesus and His finished work, not by our striving to keep the law.  We are not saved by keeping the law, nor are we kept by keeping the law.  We are very simply saved by the grace of God through faith, not by any work, and as Paul said, having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh?  Of course not!  Keeping the law will not justify you, for the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

Ladylove, 

If you are pre-wrath, then what exactly do you believe the Tribulation to be and The Day of the Lord?  We are being prepared by the Holy Spirit and by our current trials and tribulations.  The Great Tribulation IS God's wrath, which Christians are not appointed to!

Originally posted by Chloe
 

Camaro

So you think that Jesus was was referring to the law when He said, If you love me keep my commandments?  The Scripture CLEARLY teaches that NO FLESH will be justified by the deeds of the law, in His sight.  We stand justified because of Jesus and His finished work, not by our striving to keep the law.  We are not saved by keeping the law, nor are we kept by keeping the law.  We are very simply saved by the grace of God through faith, not by any work, and as Paul said, having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh?  Of course not!  Keeping the law will not justify you, for the law is the knowledge of sin.

Click to expand...

Chloe

Did you read Rev 14:12 ?

We are not to keep the letter of the Law, but we are to keep the spirit of the Law. How can one keep the spirit of the Law if one does not study the Law? How is one going to enter the Kingdom if one does not obey Gods commandments? I ask you to read Rev 14:12 before you answer.

Ladylove

I think it would be beyond the scope of this thread to get to deep into Hebrew teaching, but to get a full understanding of what the scriptures say, we need to learn some Hebrew. For instance, if a hebrew tells you "pray that your flight be not in the winter", you can bet that your flight will be in the winter. I don't claim to be the end all authority on Hebrew, no I'm far from it, but my study reveals to me that "air" = "aer" = "ruwach" = "wind, breath, mind, spirit".

Patrick

...pray, always, that ye may be counted worthy to escape all these things...

Click to expand...

I believe we should all pray that we might be counted worthy to escape the coming tribulation:

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21:36).

But note that Jesus is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Luke 21:8-35 that he is speaking to in Luke 21:36.

I believe we will escape the entire tribulation and stand before the Son of Man (Luke 21:36) only if we die before the tribulation starts (Isaiah 57:1, 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21-23). Many of us Christians will go through the tribulation (Luke 21:31; Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4).

...Jesus will rapture His bride before the Great Tribulation...

Click to expand...

Note that no scripture promises us a rapture before the tribulation. Jesus says he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul says Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

...We who are redeemed are not appointed to the wrath of God...

Click to expand...

Note that during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation; I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is when I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).

In the pre-trib view, will those who "obtain salvation" in the tribulation be "appointed to wrath?" Aren't being "appointed to wrath" and "obtaining salvation" mutually exclusive?

"God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

...just like God delivered Noah and Lot, He will deliver His children from His wrath...

Click to expand...

I think Isaiah 26:20-21 could be a command to those of us Christians still alive on the earth right before the 7 vials of God's wrath are poured out (Revelation 16). The vials aren't directed at us Christians, and if we have underground bunkers with fresh water, they need not affect us in any way.

I think our and our families' entering our "chambers" before the 7 vials of God's wrath and "shutting the doors" about us (Isaiah 26:20-21) could protect us in a way like Noah and his family's entering the ark before the flood and the "shutting" of "the door of the ark" protected them (Genesis 6:16, 7:16).

Note that Lot was greatly affected by the judgment on Sodom: he had to leave behind everything he owned; he even lost his wife; and he went to go live in a cave (Genesis 19:30). Was he appointed to God's wrath?

...This marriage ceremony and marriage feast is being celebrated while the fierce judgment of the Day of the Lord commences...

Click to expand...

Note that the Bible doesn't show the marriage of the church or the marriage supper happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven; it doesn't announce the marriage and supper until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14). "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10). I don't believe the Bible teaches a 3rd coming.

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

Note that the supper in Isaiah 25:5-9 is spoken of in connection with the same coming in which Jesus "will swallow up death in victory" (Isaiah 25:8); "Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:54).

In the pre-trib view, why isn't the Lamb at the marriage of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7) or the supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:9) at any time we see him during the tribulation? (Revelation 5:6-13; Revelation 6:1; Revelation 7:9-17; Revelation 14:1-4)

...It is a matter of God's is faithfulness to keep those who are redeemed from the hour of testing that will come upon the earth, Rev 3...

Click to expand...

Note that Revelation 3:10 doesn't promise the church a pre-trib rapture, but simply promised the 1st century church of Philadelphia that it would be kept from the hour of trial, which was probably a great persecution in their own time, and they weren't raptured.

Originally posted by Chloe
  
Ladylove, 

If you are pre-wrath, then what exactly do you believe the Tribulation to be and The Day of the Lord?  We are being prepared by the Holy Spirit and by our current trials and tribulations.  The Great Tribulation IS God's wrath, which Christians are not appointed to!

Click to expand...

The Great Tribulation is Satan's wrath, NOT God's wrath that is where you are making your mistake.  The more faithful you are to the Lord during this time of "testing" by Satan, the more he will keep you from harm "within" this time of testing.  That is why it is imperative that faithful churches remain faithful and not fall away from their testimony of Jesus. Compromising churches will be tried in the firey testing of the crucible of Satan to allow the dross of compromise to be drained off so that they are made ready for the Lord as acceptable to him. 

The Day of the Lord is very, very different.  The Day of the Lord begins the very day that the church is rescued out of the tribulation at the coming of Jesus who "snatches away" his church to heaven while the fierce judgment of the Lord is poured out on those left on earth for the following 30 days.  THAT is the Day of the Lord. 

Originally posted by ladylove
The Great Tribulation is Satan's wrath, NOT God's wrath that is where you are making your mistake...

Click to expand...

The ignorance of Scripture speaks up again!  Where does the Bible say that the "great tribulation" comes from satan...or did you just conveniently forget to quote scripture again?

Revelation 2:22-23 clearly says that God is the one responsible for the "great tribulation":

"Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.  And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give each one of you according to your deeds".

 

Perc,

You just don't really get it, do you. You twist Scripture out of context to make it say anything you want. I am wasting my time...

Originally posted by ladylove
Perc,

You just don't really get it, do you. You twist Scripture out of context to make it say anything you want. I am wasting my time...

Click to expand...

No, I don't think I am twisting scripture at all.  At least I am providing scripture to back up my argument...which is something that I don't see you doing at all.

To all Preterists posting in this forum:

Please adhear to forum rules, and specifically to what Erwin has outlined about this forum.

Click Here.

Any Preterists, who continue posting Preterist views, links, etc., in the Eschatology forum, will have their account suspended for two weeks.


Thank you for your cooperation.

John