No women preachers? (2)

When it comes to obeying the Bible; yes, but we need to study and interpret it to understand what it is saying before we can do so. Earlier in the letter (chapter 11:13-16) he says it is a disgrace for a woman to pray with her head uncovered. If she doesn't want to cover her head, she should have her hair cut. And her glory is in her long hair.
So it's a disgrace - an outrage - for a woman to have short hair, or her head uncovered, and God is offended? Really? Do you have long hair? If not, aren't you guilty of disobeying the word of God? What if you wanted to have it cut? What if - God forbid - you had cancer, were having Chemo, and decided to shave your head before your hair fell out? What if you, or your daughters, wanted your hair plaited, something else that Paul frowns on in his letter to Timothy, (the same passage where he talks about a woman learning in silence.) What about a woman with dreadlocks? What if you wanted to wear your wedding ring or pearl necklace in church (1 Timothy 2:9)? Paul does not want us to have, or do, these things.

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More silliness and exaggerations of text pulling text out of context.

If you are teaching that we all have to obey every word of the Bible because it is inspired and applicable for today, these passages apply also. What about Jesus' teaching to cut your right hand off if it causes you to sin? These are words spoken by the Son of God himself. Don't you think you should obey them? If you do, or course, if you have only one hand, only one eye, long hair and are jewellry-less in church; congratulations for being consistent. If not, then why are you being literal about applying one teaching of the NT, but not others?

I do not see that Paul's words - "I do not permit a woman to teach" are the same as "this is a command from God, given to all churches for all time, no woman can ever teach in any capacity - Sunday school, etc." And no one has yet shown that this is the case, apart from saying "well there're in the Bible, and the Bible's inspired." Lots of things are in the Bible, including Paul's desire that all men remain unmarried (1 Corinthians 7:7).
If that was obeyed, and no woman had a child outside of marriage, the world would have ended centuries ago.

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More silliness. It's fairly easy to see what Jesus was illustrating: the seriousness of our circumstance with respect to our actions and how they effect our eternal soul. Concluding it is better to lose parts of our body than our souls to the ravages of hell. To compare this with Paul's literal statement and instruction is more silliness.

Lots of things are in the Bible, including Paul's desire that all men remain unmarried (1 Corinthians 7:7).
If that was obeyed, and no woman had a child outside of marriage, the world would have ended centuries ago.

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This is really silly! Paul qualified his statement as his preference in this regard and not the Lord's. Paul was not making a command and further related this didn't pertain to all men, saying each should do according as they are gifted and called.

WOW, Is this thread still going?
It looks like you have gone from Genesis to Revelation and still not decided if it is right for women to preach. In the meantime more women have been called to the ministry, women have brought more people into Gods kingdom. They have preached the word of God to many thousands. Babtised, married and buried people. Brought comfort and healing to those in need.
No matter what we decide here on earth it looks like God is getting on with the job of expanding his kingdom.
Women in ministry are here to stay folks and I for one am gratefull for all they are doing.

John.

jon1 said:

WOW, Is this thread still going?
It looks like you have gone from Genesis to Revelation and still not decided if it is right for women to preach. In the meantime more women have been called to the ministry, women have brought more people into Gods kingdom. They have preached the word of God to many thousands. Babtised, married and buried people. Brought comfort and healing to those in need.
No matter what we decide here on earth it looks like God is getting on with the job of expanding his kingdom.
Women in ministry are here to stay folks and I for one am gratefull for all they are doing.

John.

Click to expand...

Yeah preaching the good news of Jesus Christ is unlawful for women


John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

John 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

Mark 4:27 And upon this came his disciples, and ~marvelled~ that he talked with ~the woman~: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with ~her~?

John 4:28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,

John 4:29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?


John 4:30 Then they went out of the city, and came unto him. (may her stripes be few )

John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the ~saying of~ the woman, which testified, ~He told me all that ever I did~.

John 4:41 And many more ~believed~ because of his own word;

John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, ~not because~ of thy saying: for we have heard him ~ourselves~, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Shoot her

To another woman

Mark 16:7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.

Mark 16:10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

Mark 16:11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, ~believed not~.

Mark 16:14 ...(Then Jesus) upbraided ~them~ with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not ~them~ which had seen him after he was risen.

The girls didnt have a chance shes better off with those on the "outside" then among those in the "inner circle"

Peace

Fireinfolding

JWNEWMAN said:

More silliness. It's fairly easy to see what Jesus was illustrating: the seriousness of our circumstance with respect to our actions and how they effect our eternal soul. Concluding it is better to lose parts of our body than our souls to the ravages of hell. To compare this with Paul's literal statement and instruction is more silliness.

This is really silly! Paul qualified his statement as his preference in this regard and not the Lord's. Paul was not making a command and further related this didn't pertain to all men, saying each should do according as they are gifted and called.

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Not at all. I was trying to establish Iamadopted's criteria for reading the Bible. The statement was made that we should take Paul's words about women literally and as a command from God because they are in the Bible. If you go down that road, you have to be consistent and apply it to ALL Scriptures. So instructions about length of hair and wearing of Jewellry need to be taken as literally as his other statements. If they are not, then you ARE guilty of making Scripture say what you want it to say - i.e Paul's teaching on women must be taken literally, but this other teaching must be taken in context. That's nonsense.

And I know what Jesus was getting at in Matthew about your hand offending. The point was that if a person is saying that the Bible should be taken literally and obeyed because it is God breathed, then this passage should be too. Clearly, as you say, it is silly to do so. It is silly to take the whole Bible literally, you've just confirmed that. And as soon as you start to say "Jesus meant this and was using this figure of speech to make the point", you're interpreting it and analysing the language and style of writing etc. It seems to be acceptable to do this with other passages, but not with these views of Paul's.

So, again, why is Paul's teaching about women a command from God to be taken literally, irrespective of culture etc, whereas other verses about dress and fashion have to be taken in context?

jon1 said:

WOW, Is this thread still going?
It looks like you have gone from Genesis to Revelation and still not decided if it is right for women to preach. In the meantime more women have been called to the ministry, women have brought more people into Gods kingdom. They have preached the word of God to many thousands. Babtised, married and buried people. Brought comfort and healing to those in need.
No matter what we decide here on earth it looks like God is getting on with the job of expanding his kingdom.
Women in ministry are here to stay folks and I for one am gratefull for all they are doing.

Click to expand...

Great post.

Fireinfolding said:

Women in ministry a look at scriptures

Since the old thread hit the 1000 mark and turned into a new thread and I added to this study I figure I would post it here for reference for another who might be looking into these things.

So...Heres my ongoing invesitigative look at "scripture alone" concerning women in ministry, "titles" and how these words are defined. I hope to keep "adding to" what I find as not everything is discussed in this particular post.

Heres Seven women (so far collected) and the verses including these "women" in them ...highlighted in "pink"

Romans 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ ~before me~.

Romans 16:12 Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.


1Thes 5:12 we beseech you, brethren, to KNOW ~THEM~ which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;


Romans 16:6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.


Romans 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus

Acts 18:26 And he (Apollos) began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.


Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, **in that** ye have ministered (diakoneo) to the saints, and do minister.(diakoneo)


Romans 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant (diakonos) of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in the Lord, as

Fireinfolding

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WOW, what a very long post. it's good to see that you used doctrine frequently to address your point of veiw and even in the greek. Well through you did use scripture I do have some what againt thee, seeing that in some places you have resorted in error of the system that God has designed.

In these last days the scriptures tell us that there will be three great ways that this age of the church would fall away from the oringinal gospel, namely- The way of Cain, the error of Balaam, and the gainsayings of Korah.

Im not sure if you are clear on the meaning of how this age fits into these catagories, but it is evident that by the support of women pastors many have fallen after the gainsayings of Korah.

Korah was a man who rejected the system that God had designed in labeling who was to be preist within the tribes of Isreal. Not that he did it in spite of God or was some evil person out to confuse God's orders, but just like the ways of satan he thought that just because he was doing something another way other than God's way what could be so wrong, as long as he had the intentions of satisfiying God but in His own way.

Korah opposed the system that God designed in making the preist come from the line of Araon, but he claimed that what was to say that preist could only come through Araon. As long as the will of God is achieved correct? No. God had to prove unto Korah by budding Araons rod and showing that only preist could come form his line.

Why? Why did God choose this sysytem? Why did Korah rebell and take a large portion of followrs with him?

It is the same mistake of women who try and take a position that they have not been both created and designed to do?

She is a helpmate, not a leader. She is a backbone, but not the head. But today women are in the same postion that Korah was in many years ago, and we still reject the system that God has provided and we try to replace it with our own, and then on top of that say that we are praising the Lord.

wow
this thread has digressed into so much man-made ideas...
one cannot even find a site to what actually said on the matter.

it is a very good example of those comming to God's Word trying to find something.

it is sad and a very good example of what is spoken of in Scriptures of false doctrines and those who do not endure true doctrine.

MrsJoy said:

wow
this thread has digressed into so much man-made ideas...
one cannot even find a site to what actually said on the matter.

it is a very good example of those comming to God's Word trying to find something.

it is sad and a very good example of what is spoken of in Scriptures of false doctrines and those who do not endure true doctrine.

Click to expand...

And what is the true doctrine?

lamblion said:

WOW, what a very long post. it's good to see that you used doctrine frequently to address your point of veiw and even in the greek.

Click to expand...

Well through you did use scripture I do have some what againt thee, seeing that in some places you have resorted in error of the system that God has designed.

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Which verse is in error?

In these last days the scriptures tell us that there will be three great ways that this age of the church would fall away from the oringinal gospel, namely- The way of Cain, the error of Balaam, and the gainsayings of Korah.

Click to expand...

Ok

Im not sure if you are clear on the meaning of how this age fits into these catagories, but it is evident that by the support of women pastors many have fallen after the gainsayings of Korah.

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Your thinking Korah was a woman? You know he is a man right?

Which "support" are you referring to when you speak of "the support" of women pastors?

Korah was a man who rejected the system that God had designed in labeling who was to be preist within the tribes of Isreal.

Click to expand...

Priests and pastors are the same thing to you?

Not that he did it in spite of God or was some evil person out to confuse God's orders, but just like the ways of satan he thought that just because he was doing something another way other than God's way what could be so wrong, as long as he had the intentions of satisfiying God but in His own way.

Click to expand...

So this had nothing to do with declaring ALL are holy and
lasciviousness or speaking evil against things they understand not?

Korah opposed the system that God designed in making the preist come from the line of Araon, but he claimed that what was to say that preist could only come through Araon. As long as the will of God is achieved correct? No. God had to prove unto Korah by budding Araons rod and showing that only preist could come form his line.

Click to expand...

Why? Why did God choose this sysytem? Why did Korah rebell and take a large portion of followrs with him?

Click to expand...

I read hebrews

It is the same mistake of women who try and take a position that they have not been both created and designed to do?

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Which verses are you struggling with?

She is a helpmate, not a leader. She is a backbone, but not the head.

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Christ is the head of the Church = the Woman (made up of both men and women)

We help each other...

Phil 4:3 I intreat thee also, true ~yokefellow~, help those ~women~ which laboured with me in the gospel

Romans 16:9 Salute ~Urbane~, our helper in Christ

Romans 16:3 ~Priscilla~ and ~Aquila~ my helpers in Christ Jesus

2Cr 1:24 Paul said ~we~ are helpers of your joy

Isnt this wonderful

Heb 13:6 The Lord is my helper

How GREAT He is

Same word for "help meet" used for the woman is used of the Lord Himself. What a priviledge to be helpers of the body of Christ as we minister and serve our Lord.

But today women are in the same postion that Korah was in many years ago, and we still reject the system that God has provided and we try to replace it with our own, and then on top of that say that we are praising the Lord.

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Howso?

"We" (the Church / the Woman, made up of both men and women) are helpers in Christ?

What scriptures exactly do you disagree with in the post?

Peace

Fireinfolding

lamblion said:

And what is the true doctrine?

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The one she agrees with

Peace

Fireinfolding

MrsJoy said:

wow
this thread has digressed into so much man-made ideas...
one cannot even find a site to what actually said on the matter.

it is a very good example of those comming to God's Word trying to find something.

it is sad and a very good example of what is spoken of in Scriptures of false doctrines and those who do not endure true doctrine.

Click to expand...

No, because you don't want to accept the Scriptures that have been posted, the usage of words referring to both male and female, the discussions about context and culture and the testimonies of God calling women to serve him and preach his word. Everyone who disagrees with your stance is accused of promoting false doctrine/lying.

Presumably you take the Bible literally then and accept all the other teachings on dress, fashion, hair, drinking wine etc that Paul gave?

Dont forget "childbearing"

Peace

Fireinfolding

Fireinfolding said:

The one she agrees with

Peace

Fireinfolding

Click to expand...

Please, read Zechariah-5:5-11. When you read this thell me what you think.

Fireinfolding said:

Dont forget "childbearing"

Peace

Fireinfolding

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And just to clear things up, what is your foundation in believing that women can be pastors over men?

And by the way, this is a practice, not a doctrine. There is only one Gospel, which is stated in the Nicene creed. We all believe this creed and uphold Christian doctrine. When I preach, I preach the same Gospel as male clergy do. Not feminism, just Jesus.

False doctrine is denying the divinity of Jesus, teaching that the Trinity, the resurrection, the virgin birth etc are false, that someone/thing else is our Saviour (including church practice) or that we can get to heaven by our own good works. Saying that a woman can preach the Gospel and tell others about our Lord, is not false doctrine, it is upholding a particular practice. But this is not what saves us.

Strong in Him said:

And by the way, this is a practice, not a doctrine. There is only one Gospel, which is stated in the Nicene creed. We all believe this creed and uphold Christian doctrine. When I preach, I preach the same Gospel as male clergy do. Not feminism, just Jesus.

False doctrine is denying the divinity of Jesus, teaching that the Trinity, the resurrection, the virgin birth etc are false, that someone/thing else is our Saviour (including church practice) or that we can get to heaven by our own good works. Saying that a woman can preach the Gospel and tell others about our Lord, is not false doctrine, it is upholding a particular practice. But this is not what saves us.

Click to expand...

salvation is not the issue, for most of the confussion is within the very body of believers who already have assurence to heaven. The basic principles that the apostles left us with bible dotrine have been both ignored, forgottened and even changed. In what generation or even age have you ever herd of any women leading God's people, except this last age in which we live. The age that would have a great falling away, and that would reject the truth that Christ has established.

This is the point, we as the body of christ are all members of one body, but as one body we can not all function as the same body part. We are all given a gift, a role, and a part to play within the function of this body, but if this is not understood then the body of Christ will become a cancer.

jon1 said:

WOW, Is this thread still going?
It looks like you have gone from Genesis to Revelation and still not decided if it is right for women to preach. In the meantime more women have been called to the ministry, women have brought more people into Gods kingdom. They have preached the word of God to many thousands. Babtised, married and buried people. Brought comfort and healing to those in need.
No matter what we decide here on earth it looks like God is getting on with the job of expanding his kingdom.
Women in ministry are here to stay folks and I for one am gratefull for all they are doing.

John.

Click to expand...

I bow to your wisdom. You've said what many of us have been trying to say but in less words.
God Bless you.

lamblion said:

And just to clear things up, what is your foundation in believing that women can be pastors over men?

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Have you read the first page yet? What I see according to what I have searched out is put there plainly for anyone to read. I dont see a pastor being a "one man show" or something thats all that technical, see the definitions there. I was not biased nor do I care to really convince others, its my understanding based on every scripture I could find on Pastors, Elders, Deacons, ministers, servants. Their stewardship as "endued" from God for the benefit of others. I go into the differences of the kinds "authority" in accordance to Christs words and "their rule". I show the greek words (color coded) for ease of seeing the comparisons between where they are used. Its the second post on the 1st page. I been adding to it daily, infact twice a day so far.

Check that first, then tell me where its off (that I might add to my learning).

I'm not looking to "be right" I have a love for the truth and his words.

Its a long read but its mostly scripture. I wrote that so I dont have to do nothing but post it or sections from it because Im tired of writing

Peace

Fireinfolding

lamblion said:

Please, read Zechariah-5:5-11. When you read this thell me what you think.

Click to expand...

Nothing yet, trying to figure out how that pertains to this thread. Im thinking you wondering my interpretation because the word "her" is in it?

God uses women to represent "covenants". Hell is a HER death and hell a THEM. Paul shows women after allegories in relation to Sara and Agar. Just as "that woman" (singularly) represents Jezebel who seduces the Lords servants and both John and Paul wrote of men doing the same. She having to do with killing the Lords prophets. Certain things (to me) such as that verse represent a bigger picture. Common pictures that link (to me) of things we can find threaded throughout scripture.

I dont even pretend to know all of them. We know in part and the perfect has nothing to do with the imperfect (which is knowledge) that shall pass away.

I cant go beyond my measure on that one

Peace

Fireinfolding