Hell.......literal

Your Neighbor · Mar 17, 2007

HopeBforJC said:
So what do you think going to go to hell? Your physical body? I don't think so. ...

Time to think again. Hear Jesus:
Matthew 10:28

28 ...rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul (life principle) and body in hell.

Matthew 5:29-31

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Libre · Mar 17, 2007

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

IOW, Gentiles are not under law. If they do according to the law of God written on their hearts, even though they may be a part of those given over to idolatry, they will be judged accordingly. To me, the good news about the gospel and the kingdom is that we can KNOW that we are saved. Everyone else has to hope and be anxious. And with good reason.

But ALL of humanity since Adam has had the hope and promise of the redeemer. All looked forward to the time of his coming, just as we now look back to that cross. The oral tradition started with Adam, but like the gossip party game, got corrupted over time.

It's even written in the stars. The original constellations and star names reflect this lore. It, too, is corrupted into the false religion of astrology. Food for thought, and a really good research project it you are interested. You'll never see the stars in the same way again, but will look up in even deeper awe and wonder.

Libre

Your Neighbor · Mar 18, 2007

Whether the "King of Tyre" of which this passage speaks is a human being or a symbol for the devil, can one clearly see what God is saying here in EZEKIEL 28:19? (IT'S JUST A QUESTION, MODERATORS!)

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee:
thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. (King James Version)

19"All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever."'"(New American Standard Bible)

19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.' " (New International Version)

19 All who knew you are appalled at your fate.
You have come to a terrible end,
and you will exist no more.”(New Living Translation)

19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.”’”(New King James Version)

Please don't censor the Bible or stop threads because of Ezekiel 28:19! I have not interpreted this verse: I merely posted it.

MarkEvan · Mar 19, 2007

What is the punishMENT? The wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23). Is that death eternal? Yes.

True death is eternal, but you prewsume that they are alive now, they arn`t, they are already dead in their sins, so altough they live they are dead Spiritually, which is true death, ergo they will be alive in hell, but not Spiritually.

Mark

GregoryTurner · Mar 19, 2007

Your Neighbor said:
Whether the "King of Tyre" of which this passage speaks is a human being or a symbol for the devil, can one clearly see what God is saying here in EZEKIEL 28:19? (IT'S JUST A QUESTION, MODERATORS!)

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee:
thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. (King James Version)

19"All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever."'"(New American Standard Bible)

19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.' " (New International Version)

19 All who knew you are appalled at your fate.
You have come to a terrible end,
and you will exist no more.”(New Living Translation)

19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.”’”(New King James Version)

Please don't censor the Bible or stop threads because of Ezekiel 28:19! I have not interpreted this verse: I merely posted it.

Could God have given that message because the King of Tyre was possessed by demons of Satan and was speaking to him in regards to the one that the demon serves?

Renton405 · Mar 19, 2007

Codger said:
. On the other extreme of this scale are those sects that believe that God is all love and has no severity at all. This would be the "Universalists" (Tentmaker) who believe that in the end all created beings end up in heaven including satan and all of his followers - all because of the cross of course. Unfortunately the Universalists spend all their time and energy trying to keep their twisted doctrines afloat and have time to do little else.

Larry

If that were true where would be Justice?? Without Justice there really is no love.. So not there being a hell would kinda be in contradiction to God's love but more so his Justice..I mean, imagine good people who have gone to heaven walking around with unrepentant murderers, rapists and tyrants.. it just wouldn't add up ..

Remember in Revelation the saints that were martyed cried out for Justice. And God told them they had to wait until all the saints had been killed... this here shows that God is probably preparing a justice of some sort to the evildoers..

Your Neighbor · Mar 21, 2007

MarkEvan said:
True death is eternal, but you prewsume that they are alive now, they arn`t, they are already dead in their sins, so altough they live they are dead Spiritually, which is true death, ergo they will be alive in hell, but not Spiritually.

Mark

Yes, there is such a thing as spiritual death. However, this does not do away with the teaching of the Bible of conditional immortality.

When God punished Sodom & Gomorrha with eternal fire which reduced them to ashes, were they still alive?

Also, see

The Intermediate State

Condition of Man in Death

The Condition of Man in Death

Eila · Mar 21, 2007

Your Neighbor said:
Time to think again. Hear Jesus:
Matthew 10:28

28 ...rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul (life principle) and body in hell.

Matthew 5:29-31

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Yes, you have your body in Gehenna, but not Hades. These texts you quoted are all Gehenna, not Hades.

Eila · Mar 21, 2007

Your Neighbor said:
When God punished Sodom & Gomorrha with eternal fire which reduced them to ashes, were they still alive?

Jude 1:7 " [The wicked are sentenced to suffer] just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the adjacent towns--which likewise gave themselves over to impurity and indulged in unnatural vice and sensual perversity--are laid out [in plain sight] as an exhibit of perpetual punishment [to warn] of everlasting fire."

They did not receive eternal fire, but the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was an example to warn of everlasting fire.

And yes, the people in Sodom and Gomorrah did not cease to exist. They went to Hades.

Your Neighbor · Mar 21, 2007

Eila said:
They did not receive eternal fire, but the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was an example to warn of everlasting fire.

NASB
7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

NKJV
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

NIV
7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

CEV
7We should also be warned by what happened to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and the nearby towns. Their people became immoral and did all sorts of sexual sins. Then God made an example of them and punished them with eternal fire.

(Catholic) NAB
Likewise, Sodom, Gomorrah, and the surrounding towns, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual promiscuity and practiced unnatural vice, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Wycliffe New Testament
7 As Sodom, and Gomorrha, and the nigh coasted cities, that in like manner did fornication, and went away after other flesh, and be made ensample, suffering pain of everlasting fire.

ESV
7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Eila · Mar 21, 2007

Your Neighbor said:
NASB
7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

NKJV
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

NIV
7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

CEV
7We should also be warned by what happened to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and the nearby towns. Their people became immoral and did all sorts of sexual sins. Then God made an example of them and punished them with eternal fire.

(Catholic) NAB
Likewise, Sodom, Gomorrah, and the surrounding towns, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual promiscuity and practiced unnatural vice, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Wycliffe New Testament
7 As Sodom, and Gomorrha, and the nigh coasted cities, that in like manner did fornication, and went away after other flesh, and be made ensample, suffering pain of everlasting fire.

ESV
7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

I guess you didn't like the Amplified version

Your Neighbor · Mar 21, 2007

Eila said:
Yes, you have your body in Gehenna, but not Hades. These texts you quoted are all Gehenna, not Hades.

Please provide a plethora of scriptures that indicate conscious spirits/souls in such a hades as you believe (it is not best to teach doctrine by quoting merely parables).

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." 1 Thess. 4:13

Then explain these scriptures:

"If I wait, the grave is mine house; I have made my bed in the darkness." Job 17:13.

"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Ps. 146:4.

"For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Eccl. 9:5.

"Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished..." Ecc. 9:6.

"The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." Ps. 115:17.

"For in death there is no remembrance of thee." Ps. 6:5.

"For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised; and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished." 1 Cor. 15:16-18.

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first." 1 Thess. 4:16

Bodies Go To Hades?
[Hades and Sheol are the Greek and Hebrew words for "grave" and "hell."]

"But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn" (Job 14:22). [If this text says that there is consciousness after death, as some claim, then the fleshly body must be conscious as well since it is feeling pain. If the "soul" that is mourning is in sheol ("the grave," vs. 13), then the "flesh" that is in "pain" must be there as well.]

"Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave [sheol] those which have sinned. The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him" (Job 24:19, 20). [Since it is the body that decays, it must be the body that is in the grave (sheol) here.]

"Like sheep they are laid in the grave [sheol]; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave [sheol] from their dwelling" (Ps. 49:14).

"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [sheol], whither thou goest" (Eccl. 9:10). [If the spirit or soul was conscious after death, it could not be in the grave (sheol, hades), because whatever is there has no knowledge at all. The body must be referred to here.]

"And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell [sheol] with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living" (Ezek. 32:27). [I can’t imagine people thinking that spirits or souls take their swords to hell with them. This must be a picture of people being buried in the grave with their armor.]

Your Neighbor · Mar 21, 2007

"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, (God will give, see context) eternal life" (Rom. 2:7). [We could not seek for immortality if we already had it.]

"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting" (1 Tim. 6:16). [God is here declared to be the only one who has immortality.]

"But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Tim. 1:10). [If we already have immortality, Jesus did not bring it to light.]

Eila · Mar 21, 2007

Your Neighbor said:
Please provide a plethora of scriptures that indicate conscious spirits/souls in such a hades as you believe (it is not best to teach doctrine by quoting merely parables).

Not all spirits go to Hades, only the lost now.

First of all the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable. It gives specific names and does not need an explanation. Show me a parable where Jesus gave specific names or a parable where the story was based on something that was not true.

Here are a few texts that indicate consciousness after death. I can give more if you are really interested.

Isaiah 14 " 9 Hell from beneath is excited about you,
To meet you at your coming;
It stirs up the dead for you,
All the chief ones of the earth;
It has raised up from their thrones
All the kings of the nations.
10 They all shall speak and say to you:

Have you also become as weak as we?
Have you become like us?
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
And the sound of your stringed instruments;
The maggot is spread under you,
And worms cover you."

Phillipians 1 "21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. "

Genesis 37 "34 Then Jacob tore his clothes, put sackcloth on his waist, and mourned for his son many days. 35 And all his sons and all his daughters arose to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted, and he said, For I shall go down into the grave to my son in mourning. Thus his father wept for him."

Genesis 15 "5 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age."

YourNeighbor said:
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." 1 Thess. 4:13

Bodies do sleep in the grave and turn to dust. "Sleep" is used to describe those who will be resurrected.

YourNeighbor said:
Then explain these scriptures:

"If I wait, the grave is mine house; I have made my bed in the darkness." Job 17:13.

Continue reading there. In verse 16 sheol has gates "16 Will they go down to the gates of Sheol?
Shall we have rest together in the dust?"

YourNeighbor said:
"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Ps. 146:4.

"4 His spirit departs, he returns to his earth;
In that very day his plans perish. " NKJV

His spirit departs and his body returns to the earth. In that very day all the plans he had on earth perish.

YourNeighbor said:
"For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Eccl. 9:5.
"Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished..." Ecc. 9:6.

Finish verse 6..."Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun. "

The whole context of this is "under the sun" The dead no longer have knowledge of things on the earth. They are no longer remembered by the people on earth. The will no longer have a part in things that happen on the earth.

More later.

Your Neighbor · Mar 21, 2007

Eila said:
First of all the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable. It gives specific names and does not need an explanation.

The following is by Edward Fudge:
Some argue that this story cannot be a parable because Jesus says "there was a certain rich man" and "a certain poor man." However, Jesus also introduces the story of the Unrighteous Judge by saying "there was in a certain city a judge," yet Luke tells us that story is a parable (Lk. 18:1-2). Similarly, the story of the Pharisee and the Publican begins with "two men went up into the temple to pray," and that story, too, is a parable (Lk. 18:9-10). Not only is the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus a parable, scholars of first-century Jewish literature have found it in a dozen forms. Jesus simply borrows a well-known tale and changes the details to make his own points.

Some insist that every detail in this story must be literal, for "Jesus would not mislead by teaching what is not real." These well-meaning interpreters confuse form with substance and mistake incidentals for the point. Parables usually contain one or two intended truths, communicated by an imaginary story. No one really believes that Jesus endorsed all the details here. A drop of water on the tongue would not stop the pains of fiery torture! We need not take this parable literally in order to take it seriously.

Eila · Mar 22, 2007

Your Neighbor said:
"The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." Ps. 115:17.

Psalm 115 "16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD’s;
But the earth He has given to the children of men.
17 The dead do not praise the LORD,
Nor any who go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the LORD
From this time forth and forevermore.

Praise the LORD!"

The unrighteous dead do not praise the Lord. They are silent and do not praise. However, we will bless the Lord now and forever. Forever doesn't stop at death. Forever is forever.

YourNeighbor said:
"For in death there is no remembrance of thee." Ps. 6:5.

The time to glorify God is while we are on earth. A dead person in the grave cannot do good to men and bring praise to God.

YourNeighbor said:
"For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised; and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished." 1 Cor. 15:16-18.

Bodies fall asleep.

YourNeighbor said:
"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first." 1 Thess. 4:16

The dead Christians will receive their glorified bodies first.

YourNeighbor said:
Bodies Go To Hades?
[Hades and Sheol are the Greek and Hebrew words for "grave" and "hell."]

Grave and hell are two different things. There are separate Greek and Hebrew words to signify grave.

YourNeighbor said:
"But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn" (Job 14:22). [If this text says that there is consciousness after death, as some claim, then the fleshly body must be conscious as well since it is feeling pain. If the "soul" that is mourning is in sheol ("the grave," vs. 13), then the "flesh" that is in "pain" must be there as well.]

This is poetry here. The "shall have pain" is from the word "ka-ab" which can mean afflicted. The body in the grave is afflicted and is eaten by worms.

YourNeighbor said:
"Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave [sheol] those which have sinned. The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him" (Job 24:19, 20). [Since it is the body that decays, it must be the body that is in the grave (sheol) here.]

Again poetry? Are all your quotes from poetry? Yes, the body is in the grave. Sheol is not the grave. Look at a literal translation of this verse:

"9Drought -- also heat -- consume snow-waters, Sheol [those who] have sinned.
20Forget him doth the womb, Sweeten [on] him doth the worm, No more is he remembered, And broken as a tree is wickedness."

YourNeighbor said:
"Like sheep they are laid in the grave [sheol]; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave [sheol] from their dwelling" (Ps. 49:14).

More poetry

Yes, bodies decay in the grave. Sheol is not the grave. Look at a literal translation of this verse:

"As sheep for Sheol they have set themselves, Death doth afflict them, And the upright rule over them in the morning, And their form [is] for consumption. Sheol [is] a dwelling for him.
15Only, God doth ransom my soul from the hand of Sheol, For He doth receive me. Selah."

YourNeighbor said:
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [sheol], whither thou goest" (Eccl. 9:10). [If the spirit or soul was conscious after death, it could not be in the grave (sheol, hades), because whatever is there has no knowledge at all. The body must be referred to here.]

Poetry again. Ecclesiastes is all referencing things that happen "under the sun". When we die we have no more impact on things that happen under the sun.

YourNeighbor said:
"And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell [sheol] with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living" (Ezek. 32:27). [I can’t imagine people thinking that spirits or souls take their swords to hell with them. This must be a picture of people being buried in the grave with their armor.]

Yes, this is a picture of people (who went to the netherworld) who's bodies were buried with their weapons.

Eila · Mar 22, 2007

Your Neighbor said:
The following is by Edward Fudge:
Some argue that this story cannot be a parable because Jesus says "there was a certain rich man" and "a certain poor man." However, Jesus also introduces the story of the Unrighteous Judge by saying "there was in a certain city a judge," yet Luke tells us that story is a parable (Lk. 18:1-2). Similarly, the story of the Pharisee and the Publican begins with "two men went up into the temple to pray," and that story, too, is a parable (Lk. 18:9-10). Not only is the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus a parable, scholars of first-century Jewish literature have found it in a dozen forms. Jesus simply borrows a well-known tale and changes the details to make his own points.

Some insist that every detail in this story must be literal, for "Jesus would not mislead by teaching what is not real." These well-meaning interpreters confuse form with substance and mistake incidentals for the point. Parables usually contain one or two intended truths, communicated by an imaginary story. No one really believes that Jesus endorsed all the details here. A drop of water on the tongue would not stop the pains of fiery torture! We need not take this parable literally in order to take it seriously.

Well, if we are quoting people I will quote someone too

Robert Morey "Although this passage in Luke shows a characteristic of an O.T. historical account, for the beggar's name was specifically given as a proper name - not a symbollic one: "a certain poor man named Lazarus". And since, the passage refers to yet another O. T. historical individual: "Father Abraham". And since all attempts to treat this as a completely symbollic parable that teaches anything but death or the afterlife end up in farfetched interpretations that violate clear doctrinal passages on these subjects; consider another option which best fits the rest of Scripture and has precedent in the rabbinical literary form of Jesus' day:

[Morey op. cit., pp. 85-87]:
"The rabbinic literature before, during, and after the time of Christ is filled with parables which built imaginative stories around real historical characters. There are multiple examples in the Talmud and Midrash of parables in which Abraham had dialogues with people such as Nimrod, with whom he could never have spoken literally. Everyone understood that these parables and dialogues did not literally take place.
[Yet what was being taught by the fictitious account was indeed literal]
It was understood that the rabbis used imaginative stories and dialogues as a teaching method. It was understood by all that these dialogues never took place...
...Christ used a rabbinic story and dialogue in Luke 16:19-31 which was not 'true' or 'real' in the sense of being literal [in a historical sense, but literal indeed in what it is teaching]. It is obvious that Lazarus did not literally sit in Abraham's literal bosom. The rich man did not have literal lips which literal water could quench.
What is important for us to grasp is that Christ used the mental images conjured up by this rabbinic parable to teach that, in the hereafter, the wicked experience torment and the righteous bliss. This is clear from the rabbinic sources from which he drew this parable.
Since the dialogue between the rich man and Abraham was a teaching tool used by the rabbis before Christ, it is obvious that Christ was not trying to teach that we will talk with the wicked in the hereafter. He was merely using the dialogue method to get across the concept that there is no escape from torment, no second chance, and we must believe the Scriptures in this life unto salvation."

MarkEvan · Mar 22, 2007

Yes, there is such a thing as spiritual death. However, this does not do away with the teaching of the Bible of conditional immortality.

When God punished Sodom & Gomorrha with eternal fire which reduced them to ashes, were they still alive?

Also, see

You are correct that there is conditional imortality, what is this imortality but life in Jesus, this is life knowing Him, so logically death is therfore not knowing or being a part of Him, do not make the mistake of equating Spiritual with literal, just because the body dies and ceases to exist that does not mean that the soul does.

Jesus says to the jews who question Him about the tower of siloam which fell on other jews, "and you should repent lest you perish as they did," what does Jesus mean when He says perish as they did?

Mark

Your Neighbor · Mar 22, 2007

Ezekiel 18

4: Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Romans 6

16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Eila · Mar 22, 2007

Your Neighbor said:
Ezekiel 18

4: Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

This chapter in Ezekiel is not about the nature or man, but that each person is responsible for their own life. Later in the chapter we see it explained more fully.
"18As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, robbed his brother, and did that which is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his iniquity and guilt.
19Yet do you say, Why does not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son has done that which is lawful and right and has kept all My statutes and has done them, he shall surely live.
20The soul that sins, it [is the one that] shall die. The son shall not bear and be punished for the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear and be punished for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him only, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon the wicked only.
21But if the wicked man turns from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all My statutes and does that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die."

YourNeighbor said:
Romans 6

16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Death is the result of sin. All those without Christ are dead already.

Hell.......literal

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Ezekiel 33

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