Faith and Healing Something to consider

SpiritPsalmist · Sep 4, 2002

Originally posted by lambslove
God has His own reasons for allowing sickness and suffering among His own people. To say that all sickness and suffering come from a lack of faith is to deny God His true place--ruler of the universe.

He gives rain to the justified and the unjustified--for his own reasons. He gives blessings to some and pain to others--for His own reasons. He heals some and allows others to die--for His own reasons.

The sourvernity of God is not usurped by humans, no matter what they name and claim.

According to one commentary:

"Ecclesiastes is the book of the natural man whose interests are confined to the unstable, vanishing pleasures and empty satisfactions of those who live merely "under the sun."  The natural man is not aware that all the affirmative answers to life are to be found in Him Who is above, not "under," the sun.  The natural man grovels in the dust and finds only earthworms, while the spiritual man may soar on wings like eagles (Isa 30:31) above all that is futile and disapointing, and may live in the consciousness of God's companionship, favor, and incomparable, everlasting rewards. 

The "Wisdom" of Proverbs is not the "wisdom" of Ecclesiastes.  The former is Godlike, the latter is usually human.

Throughout this book not once is the Supreme Being recognized as "Lord". The word used to designate Him is invariable the one that may be applied to God or to idols -"Elohim," the God recognized "under the sun." The wisdom which is thus limited can end only in "a miserable business"  and in vexation of spirit until it finds "the wisdom that is from above"(James 3:17) "the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto out glory" (1 Cor 2:7)

 

If we are going to quote Solomon from the book of Eccl. we must make sure that what he says is not opposite what God says.  If it is, it's not God who is wrong.

In 2 Chron 19:7  through Jehoshaphat God says, "there is no injustice or partiality with the Lord our God"

Rom 2:11 "For God shows no partiality"

Eph 6:9 "there is no respect of persons with Him

Col 3:25 "with God there is no partiality"

All of these verses show that God disagrees with what Soloman said.  So we must conclude that Soloman was wrong. 

We can not name something that God has not named. It would be futile to do so.  God has named certain things for His children and  if we want them, they are ours to claim.  If it does not happen as I trust, it does not matter.  God is God.  His Word does not change.  Even if I die I will still believe His Word.  Just like those 3 crazy kids in the furnace.

So while your words taken from the book of Eccl "sound" good, they are opposite what God says and are merely agreeing with Soloman who, when he said it, was living "under the sun", and not above it. :bow:

ZiSunka · Sep 4, 2002

I did not quote from Ecclesiates.

I quoted from Matthew: for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

The whole text is: "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. " Matthew 5:44-45

Christ's own words.

SpiritPsalmist · Sep 4, 2002

Originally posted by lambslove
I did not quote from Ecclesiates.

I quoted from Matthew: for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

The whole text is: "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. " Matthew 5:44-45

Christ's own words.

I'm sorry lambslove, I believe it's someone else who quotes frequently from Eccl.   

But in this scripture ref I don't see it saying that God causes sickness.  It says, He makes His sun to rise and He makes it to rain on the just and unjust.  Again, I don't see how we can interpret that to mean sickness, disease, and poverty. 

It still stands that God does not show partiality to any person.  He does not promise healing to one and exclude the other.  His sun rises and the rain (water from heaven) falls on us all.  But I don't see that as judgement.

ZiSunka · Sep 4, 2002

He bless whom He blesses. It's His decision, not ours. You can ask for healing, and receive it gratefully from His hand, but sometimes it is His will to allow you to remain sick, and even to die.

Rain and sun are blessings. Health is a blessing. They all come to the just and the unjust, as he determines, for His own purposes.

GraftMeIn · Sep 4, 2002

Originally posted by lambslove
My nephew is deaf. Even if he could be healed, it isn't necessarily God's will for him. God might have plans for him that only a deaf person could fulfill. God might have something bigger than restoration for Greg. Healing is not the end all and be all of life. Sometimes afflictions are bigger blessings than perfect health.

That's so true lambslove. I have to admit I was blessed by having two parents that were always at home for me. Although as a teenager I didn't consider it such. I couldn't get away with anything! But now I see it so much differently.

GraftMeIn · Sep 4, 2002

Originally posted by Andrew
all well and nice sweet words but what about some scripture to prove that God doesnt want to heal some or that he authors sickness or death in some of his children?

Andrew,
 I already posted as to some of things God gave me a better understanding of. But now I ask you to look at this, look at what else the Lord gave me, He gave me these things before I even knew my father had cancer. Take a look at the dates these things were posted.

The Lord gave me a prayer before I even new I needed it... posted on July 23rd

The Lord gave me words of comfort  before I knew I would need them...
Something written for those who struggle with death July 25th this was written just before learning that they had found masses in my fathers lungs.

This scripture was added

ISAIAH 57: 1-2
1 The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil.
2 Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find peace as they lie in death.

As I Mentioned before, God has already granted me understanding as to why he will be taking my father. And that's another post in itself, but I will tell you this. It is to be spared evil. Many will not even see this, many already try and deny what is happening in this world. I will tell you what this evil is, but I will not argue with anyone about it, or about what it is. It is the mark of the beast, My father would be a prime candidate for when it's first instituded, and put into use. But God did not show me this untill after I had written what I had, and untill after learning what was happening to my Dad, and spending much time in prayer about it.

Prayer request posted on July 30th  first posted on the night of July 26th but got lost when the forums moved to the new server, on the 27th. Only to show that it wasn't untill after I wrote the other things that I came to the knowledge about anything going on with my Dad.

Some scriptures as you requested...

Hebrews 2:4
God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Notice it says distributed according to his will, not ours.

Ecclesiastes 7:1-2
1- A good name is better than fine perfume, and the day of death better than the day of birth.
2- It is better to go to a house of mourning than to go to a house of feasting, for death is the destiny of every man; the living should take this to heart.

If it wasn't Gods will that anyone should be sick or suffer, while on this earth. Then what was the need for this scripture?

Matthew 25:37-40
37-  "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38-  When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39-  When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40- "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Why would Jesus say anything about visiting the sick?
Why does the bible tell us that those who suffer on earth will be comforted in heaven?

Here's something I have seen. I have seen my family go from church to church, looking for one that didn't think they needed to cast demons out of my Dad, or accuse him of having a secret sin.

When we would go to church there would always be certain members that would grab hold of Dad drag him to the front of the church and try casting demons out of him. Sorry he wasn't demon possesed he simply has Multiple Sclerosis.
The bible says not to lay hands suddenly upon someone, It also says that if someone is in need of healing let him go to the elders. Seems they didn't give my father the chance to do this, since they went to him instead, only so they could try and cast out demons.

There were also other members of the churches that would approach my Dad after the sermons and tell him that if he quit his secret sin he would be healed. Most of these very same people had to wear eye glasses in order to see.
So what were these people doing to my father? Were they not judging him, by telling him the reasons he hadn't been healed?
 
Only God knows what's in someones heart, only God knows how much faith they have in him. It isn't for us to judge. We can't look at someone and say you lack faith because you haven't been healed physically, If we do then we are in fact judging them.

 

SpiritPsalmist · Sep 4, 2002

Originally posted by GraftMeIn
Only God knows what's in someones heart, only God knows how much faith they have in him. It isn't for us to judge. We can't look at someone and say you lack faith because you haven't been healed physically, If we do then we are in fact judging them. 

GraftMeIn,

I agree with this statement whole heartedly. I can only profusely apologize for the idiocy that some of Gods people operate in, in their zeal, ignorance, and/or selfrighteousness.

Growing up in the penticostal environment I saw and heard a lot of stuff. Some of it good, some of it not so good. Some of it done to me, some of it done to others.

But God was faithful to see to the end that despite some of the ignorance, I came out sane. Through it I learned to just drew closer to Him and got into His Word and tried to learn how to operate the way I saw Him operate.

However, if we really look at some of the things Jesus did, if He were here today, and did those things to people, He would be the top most dangerous person on HH's list.

He spit in the dirt and made mud and then spread it on a blind man's eyes. He called one heart-broken women a dog because she asked that He deliver her demon possesed daughter from the demon. He asked a lame guy why he could'nt get himself to the pool to be healed. He let His disciples take a little boy's lunch. He called the religious of His day, cheap painted gravestones. He hung out with prostitutes, drinkers, tax collectors, and unlearned fishermen. He called His disciples men of little faith because they expressed fear during a storm on the lake. He once called one of them Satan. He let a friend die so He could raise him again. He called Himself God.

We need to learn to apply God's grace to others as He has applied it to us. We cannot expect more of others than we do of ourselves. If we expect others to do it perfectly everytime, or not do it at all then we must apply that same logic to ourselves. But . . .then we would not be obeying what we've been told to do.

A boss I once had use to say, "the only people who don't make mistakes are those who are not doing anything at all".

You're probably gonna say "I don't expect people to be perfect". But let's be honest. If you did not expect it, you would not have been offended.

And I do apply that same logic to myself. When I get offended by something somebody says or does to me, it just shows me how much closer I need to grow to Him. Because, according to Ps 119:165 "Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them". And, lest you say, I'm not offened. If that were true you would not still be using it to account for your feelings.

God is not a respector of persons. I don't claim to understand why some manifest that healing while others do not. I do not think it means they love God less than I do.

If one truely believes that God is the one who has made them sick or poor then it is wrong to go to the doctor to try and undo what God has done. It would be working against His will to do so.

It is to your fathers credit that he gave glory to God in the midst of his troubles. It is to your credit that you have matured to understand so much. I believe it was God's Spirit that nurtured that in you and him, not his illness.

God has given you much grace.  He's supplied comfort before you knew you were going to need it.  That is so like Him.  He loves us.  He loves us unconditionally.

I bless you and I pray for great strength to overshadow you during this time of pain.  I pray for Jesus to wrap His arms around you and that you may feel His embrace as you encounter the days ahead.  Be at peace.

your sister in Christ,

Barbara

GraftMeIn · Sep 4, 2002

thanks again Quaffer,

I like the comment from the boss you gave, It's so true. Everyone makes mistakes. And I've made more than my fair share that's for sure!

What's insteresting is my father never let those things bother him, he never mentioned a word about it, So I didn't think much about it back then. My Mom wasn't too happy about it though. But now looking back on things, and seeing that people are telling others why they haven't been healed. I feel the need to stand up say all these things.

I stand in awe of the way God works in our lives, the way he grants us understanding and gives us just what we need, before we even know that we need it. The way he can show us things so that we know it comes from him, leaving no room for us to doubt it. There's no greater feeling than knowing he has everything under control.

Andrew · Sep 4, 2002

"but sometimes it is His will to allow you to remain sick, and even to die."

1. Wld we do that to our own children? Then why do we say and teach that our heavenly Father is like that?

2. Healing is plainly in the atonement/redemtion work of Christ. ie its part of the cross/Gospel. So, if you say that statement quoted, then you must also say that "sometimes it is His will to allow you to remain a sinner, and even go to hell." (and yes there are those who actually believe that -- limited atonement doctrine)

I'm not interested in who has more faith or less faith or who's more faithful or less faithful or whatever. The simple truth is that God Word says that healing is part of the cross (as is prosperity and many other things).

Now, why some Christians experience these blessings and why others dont or at varying degrees is certainly a matter of
1) Faith (u cant deny that cos without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to pls God). at its simplest, some Christians dont experience it bcos they dont even believe it and even come against it).
2) We are all growing/learning at different degrees.
3) We dont have all the answers but we know enough from the Word that sickness doesnt come from God (ie he does not AUTHOR it but he has to allow it sometimes although its against his heart). Neither does death. How can it be when death is God's enemy.

I believe the problem is that one does not see that healing is part of redemption. once that can be seen, the argument stops. and the learning can begin.

LouisBooth · Sep 4, 2002

"want me to dig up some more?"

Go for it andrew, but like always, you're ripping things out of context twisting them slightly just to make your point.

LouisBooth · Sep 4, 2002

"If we are going to quote Solomon from the book of Eccl. we must make sure that what he says is not opposite what God says. If it is, it's not God who is wrong. "

*sigh* now scripture isn't scripture. Keep twisting. The wisdom that book has in it is countless, and when taken in context is quite enlightening, that is why I quote from that book. Its a great quote and quite inline with the whole bible. God is in control. He sends the good and the bad times. He has made the one as well as the other.

Andrew · Sep 4, 2002

"Go for it andrew, but like always, you're ripping things out of context twisting them slightly just to make your point."

the context, links, are there for all to check. and no, i'll save you the embarassment.

LouisBooth · Sep 4, 2002

"the context, links, are there for all to check. and no, i'll save you the embarassment."

Then you'll see that I was not saying he doesn't provide for our physical needs then. The blessings he gives us are of a spiritual nature though.

SpiritPsalmist · Sep 5, 2002

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"If we are going to quote Solomon from the book of Eccl. we must make sure that what he says is not opposite what God says. If it is, it's not God who is wrong. "

*sigh* now scripture isn't scripture. Keep twisting. The wisdom that book has in it is countless, and when taken in context is quite enlightening, that is why I quote from that book. Its a great quote and quite inline with the whole bible. God is in control. He sends the good and the bad times. He has made the one as well as the other.

You forgot to post all my post Louis, so I've done it again for you. :angel:

According to one commentary:

"Ecclesiastes is the book of the natural man whose interests are confined to the unstable, vanishing pleasures and empty satisfactions of those who live merely "under the sun."  The natural man is not aware that all the affirmative answers to life are to be found in Him Who is above, not "under," the sun.  The natural man grovels in the dust and finds only earthworms, while the spiritual man may soar on wings like eagles (Isa 30:31) above all that is futile and disapointing, and may live in the consciousness of God's companionship, favor, and incomparable, everlasting rewards. 

The "Wisdom" of Proverbs is not the "wisdom" of Ecclesiastes.  The former is Godlike, the latter is usually human.

Throughout this book not once is the Supreme Being recognized as "Lord". The word used to designate Him is invariable the one that may be applied to God or to idols -"Elohim," the God recognized "under the sun." The wisdom which is thus limited can end only in "a miserable business"  and in vexation of spirit until it finds "the wisdom that is from above"(James 3:17) "the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto out glory" (1 Cor 2:7)

 

LouisBooth · Sep 6, 2002

"The former is Godlike, the latter is usually human. "

Nope, wrong again. Both are statements from a wiseman writing down God inspired thoughs. If it was mere human wisdom it would not be scripture.

Sorry to tell you Ecc is from the wisdom of God through a man.

SpiritPsalmist · Sep 9, 2002

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"The former is Godlike, the latter is usually human. "

Nope, wrong again. Both are statements from a wiseman writing down God inspired thoughs. If it was mere human wisdom it would not be scripture.

Sorry to tell you Ecc is from the wisdom of God through a man.

<TABLE height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>Well Louis,

That's quite contradictary to what Solomon himself says in chapter 1:13 "And I applied myself by heart an mind to seek and search out by human wisdom all human activity under heaven.  It is a miserable business which God has given to the sons of man with which to busy themselves"

Do you really believe that God is telling us through Soloman that He gave us a miserable business?  In verse 16 Solomon writes "I entered into councel with my own mind"  V 17 "And I gave my mind to know practical wisdom and to discern the character of madness".  Do you believe God led him to do this? 

Please Louis, answer those questions.  Don't give me some inane answer like "nope". 

How about Chapter 2 verse 3 "I searched in my mind how to cheer my body with wine - yet at the same time having my mind hold its course and guide me with human wisdom".  Please list for me the times that God might lead you to get drunk to show how you can continue to make Godly decisions while being in such condition.

How about chapter 3 verse 19 "a man has no preeminece over a beast".  Imagine that, God says we are "made in His image".  But Soloman says we're lower than the beast. 

2 Tim 3:16 says; "Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching. . .reproof. . .correction, for instruction. . .in righteousness.

Through the Eccl scriptures we are taught that doing things according to our own wisdom is futile, empty, and vanity. We are corrected for thinking things according to our own wisdom.  And instructed not to follow the same course that Solomon took according to what he wrote in this book. 

Now, let's take your logic into other portions of scripture.  How about when Adam said, "the woman you gave me".  Did God initiate that statement.  How about when Cain said, "Am I my brothers keeper?

How about when Abraham and Issac, both lied to a king regarding their wives being their sisters. Were those statements initiated by God. 

How about when Baalam refused to prophesy against Israel but instructed the enemy on how they themselves could cause Israel to fall?  Would you say he was doing what God told him to do? And that God had it written in the Bible so we can copy it?

Again, 2 Tim 3:16 says; "Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching. . .reproof. . .correction, for instruction. . .in righteousness. 

In all these instances we're supposed to learn how NOT to do things.  We are supposed to learn what is NOT righteousness. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

GraftMeIn · Sep 9, 2002

1 Kings 4:29
God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight, and a breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore.

SpiritPsalmist · Sep 9, 2002

Originally posted by GraftMeIn
1 Kings 4:29
God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight, and a breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore.

This is true GRaftMeIn, however, Solomon, in his own words decided he needed to understand things from a "human" point of view and not from God's.  So he deliberately, set out to do things opposite of what God instructed and found that everything he learned as such, was vanity.

Eccl 1:13 ( Amplified) "And I applied myself by heart and mind to seek and search out by human wisdom all human activity under heaven.  It is a misarable business which God has given to the sons of man whith which to busy themselves. 

I have seen all the works that are done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity, a striving after the wind and a feeding on wind.

What is crooked cannot be made straight, and what is defective and lacking cannot be counted.

I entered into counsel with my own mind, saying, Behold, I have acquired great human wisdom, yes, more than all who have been over Jeursalem before me; and my mind has had great experience of moral wisdom and scientific knowledge.

And I gave my mind to know practical wisdom and to discern the character of madness and folly in which men seem to find satisfaction; I perceived that this also is a searching after wind and a feeding on it.

For much human wisdom is vexation, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow".

Solomon sought to know human wisdom of which he writes only increased his sorrow upon the knowledge of it.  He already had all of God's wisdom.  Whatever could cause him to think there was anything other that what God said? 

He chose the way of sin in his "discoveries".  The wages of sin is death.  Soloman learned it the hard way. That was his choice, not God's.

LouisBooth · Sep 9, 2002

quaf, I already responed to your post so I'm not going to do it again and bog the thread down: final conclusion, all scripture is God breathed and the passages you're talking about are specifically refering to themselves, not God as the passage I usually quote. As for the passages in Ecc you quote, if you'd take them in context you'd see they were wisdom of God, but you don't so they don't make sence at all.

GraftMeIn · Sep 9, 2002

Quaffer,
I wouldn't rely on the Ampliphied version of the Bible. Here's how that scripture reads in a few other versions, no where does it mention human wisdom.

NIV Ecclesiastes 1: 12-18

12 I, the Teacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem.
13 I devoted myself to study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under heaven. What a heavy burden God has laid on men!
14 I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.
15 What is twisted cannot be straightened; what is lacking cannot be counted.
16 I thought to myself, "Look, I have grown and increased in wisdom more than anyone who has ruled over Jerusalem before me; I have experienced much of wisdom and knowledge." 17 Then I applied myself to the understanding of wisdom, and also of madness and folly, but I learned that this, too, is a chasing after the wind.
18 For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief.

KJV Ecclesiastes 1: 12-18

12 I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem.
13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
15 That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.
16 I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.
17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

ASV Ecclesiastes 1: 12-18

13 And I applied my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom concerning all that is done under heaven: it is a sore travail that God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised therewith.
14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind.
15 That which is crooked cannot be made straight; and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.
16 I communed with mine own hear, saying, Lo, I have gotten me great wisdom above all that were before me in Jerusalem; yea, my heart hath had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.
17 And I applied my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also was a striving after wind.
18 For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

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