Praying to Saints

Really? Because that statement that she "shares fully in the divine mysteries of Jesus salvific actions on the cross" makes it sound like you are saying she hung on the cross with him.

How does she share in them anymore than all the rest of us humans, then? I mean, if no one but Christ hung on the cross, then He did ALL the work of salvation on the cross, right?

Christ's death made me righteous in God's eyes. Are my works righteous? Of course not.

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If you have been made righteous, then why are the things you do not found pleasing to God? We are righteous, and what we do is sanctified by the Holy Spirit. We participate in the divine nature, right here and now. Obviously not to the extent we will after our death, but God still dwells within us. Those faithful who have died before us are not cut off from the Body of Christ, but are instead even more a part of it. We try to pay attention to our brothers needs and pray for them, but we can only do it imperfectly. Our departed brothers and sisters behold God in all His glory, they have been perfectly sanctified, and I believe they fulfill Christ's wishes that we pray for one another perfectly. To me that is as clear from Scripture as the Trinity is. Why the need to divide the Body of Christ? Has death not been conquered?

God Bless,

Neal

To Lambslove:

Isshinwhat's remark about Mary sharing in the divine mysteries was in reference to her being the Mother of God. Without her cooperation, Jesus would not have been available to hang on the cross.


To Reformationist:

But neither one of those scriptures you noted shows any support for praying to dead saints for intercessory prayer.

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But the Scriptural support shows that we are to pray for one another, and because of the PROMISE of Jesus, the "dead saints" are not DEAD, but alive in Christ.

A Catholic asking a "dead saint" to pray with him is identical in nature in a Protestant asking his pastor to pray with him. If you believe in the promise of Jesus, that those who believe in Him will NOT DIE, but have everlasting life, then the Catholic asking the "dead saint" to pray is merely showing absolute confidence in that very promise!

I just wasn't aware that anyone else prayed to saints, except maybe Methodists, which in my opinion are pretty much Protestant Catholics, a least by the nature of their faith and the things involved in it, such as praying to saints.

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I wasn't aware of Methodists honoring saints. The denomination most similar to Catholicism is Episcopal, with Lutheran right behind. Both of those denominations recognize saints.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

I mean, if no one but Christ hung on the cross, then He did ALL the work of salvation on the cross, right?

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But we are all required to participate in Christ's death and unite ourselves to it.

Colossians 1:24

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

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Every one of us will eventually sahre fully in Christ's salvific action. Those faithful who have died do so already.

Neal

Since all those who have died in faith are in the very presence of the Lord, why would they have to pray? The Bible says nothing of asking those that have died and gone to be with the Lord to pray for us at all. Jesus taught us how to pray, to the Father in His name. Yes we are to pray for one another, as the Bible teaches, but we are NEVER told to ask for those who are with God to pray for us. Big difference, especially considering that all who are redeemed are saints.

To Chloe:

The Bible says nothing of asking those that have died and gone to be with the Lord to pray for us at all.

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No, but the Bible tells us to pray for ONE ANOTHER.

To put it another way, the Bible doesn't tell us NOT to ask "dead saints" to pray for you!

We are not saying that everyone MUST ask the saints to pray for them. Our point is this: there is nothing wrong with someone asking a saint to pray with them to God; it is simply asking another person to pray for you, as you would ask a friend, a relative, or your pastor.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

Well - that blew a theory apart. I was going to question whether all disciples of Christ were saints or not. But searching through the various epistles shows that the concept is valid.

Of course, there is a distinction between a believer and a disciple.

Isshinwhat's remark about Mary sharing in the divine mysteries was in reference to her being the Mother of God.

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That was the greatest way she participated in the divine nature, yes, but there were others; Pentecost, her suffering on Calvary as she watched Him die, and countless others that we will probably never know.

2 Peter 1:3-4

His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.

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We are living sacrifices. All we do we strive to unite with Christ's sacrifice on Calvary, "For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too," (2 Corinthians 1:5). We have confidence that those sacrifices we make are pleasing to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit (Romans 15:16).

Mary's greatest gift was being the Mother of God, with all that entails. Every mother knows the sacrifices inherent to that. Mine will be something else, and each of yours a different thing. But what the gift or sacrifice is does not matter. What matters is the fact that we do it for love of God, and with a humble heart. Through that, we offer ourselves and all we do to God, and in the end, when we are all called home, we will be welcomed with those beautiful words, "Well done, good and faithful servant."

God Bless,

Neal

Well - i personally don't pray to dead saints. But - I can see no real need to go into conniptions about someone else doing it. To the extent of asking a dead saint join his or her petition to one's own petition to God anyway. Now, asking a dead saint to perform a miracle or such ... that is a different matter.

Since all those who have died in faith are in the very presence of the Lord, why would they have to pray?

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Keep in mind the scene recorded in Revelations occurs in the Heaven, and the vision Judas Maccabeus has is of two men, Jeremiah and Onias, who are dead.

Revelations 5:8

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

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Revelations 8:2-4

Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

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2 Maccabees 15:11-16

...he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief. What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. And Onias spoke, saying, "This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God." Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: "Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries."

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I believe the bolded portion in the last passage says why they pray; they love us.

God Bless,

Neal

If you have been made righteous, then why are the things you do not found pleasing to God? We are righteous, and what we do is sanctified by the Holy Spirit. We participate in the divine nature, right here and now.

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Oh - poor form that, Neal, thoroughly unsporting of you. . How dare you bring logical analysis of the scriptures into play. It's just NOT the done thing.

Originally posted by VOW
To Lambslove:

Isshinwhat's remark about Mary sharing in the divine mysteries was in reference to her being the Mother of God. Without her cooperation, Jesus would not have been available to hang on the cross.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

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Cuz God wasn't able, without Mary's help?

If Mary hadn't cooperated, the world would still be lost?

He would have never found anyone else to bear Himself as a human baby?

That was the greatest way she participated in the divine nature, yes, but there were others; Pentecost, her suffering on Calvary as she watched Him die, and countless others that we will probably never know.

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But those were PERSONAL sufferings, having nothing to do with us. Strangers cannot suffer for each other. Mary's pain was the result of watch her own offspring die painfully, and did NOTHING to sanctify us or make us righteous.

She was just another human being. Nothing about her was divine, nor is she now divine.

The whole selection of Mary as the Mother of Jesus is based upon HER free will choice, her personal decision to accept the honor.

Without her ability to utilize free-will, then essentially you say that she was coerced. Her COOPERATION was needed.

Was Gabriel SHOPPING for a willing womb?


~VOW

Originally posted by lambslove
Cuz God wasn't able, without Mary's help?

If Mary hadn't cooperated, the world would still be lost?

He would have never found anyone else to bear Himself as a human baby?

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Yeah, God can do anything he wants, and if he wanted to save us and Mary was not willing, he would have made it happen. His mere words speak things into existance. He could have made anyone pregnant. Mary is no more special than lambslove, but I will not pray to lambslove. Asking lambslove to pray ALONG SIDE OF ME is different than me praying TO HER.

I grew up catholic, and I was extremely confused. I remember a conversation with my aunt about two years ago. She says she believes in Mary, and prays to Mary, but she was uncertain about Jesus, and if she even believed in Jesus. So because she was unsure, she didnt pray to Jesus, and only to Mary. I am here to tell you today that my Aunt's prayers are said in vain. Here is what I told her "How can you believe in Mary and not in Jesus? The ONLY thing that makes Mary anything is the fact that she bore Jesus. " Jesus is the focal point of all creation. He is the reason you were born, he is the reason you exist today, and he is the reason you will live forever. If I was you, I would pray only to Jesus. A middle man is not necessary. If you want others to pray along side you, then ask them to lift you up in prayer as you do yourself. JESUS hears prayers. When I pray, I say dear JESUS, not "dear saint so and so who is in the grave. "

Originally posted by isshinwhat
If you have been made righteous, then why are the things you do not found pleasing to God?

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Because in His Divine providence He deemed it beneficial for my sanctification to leave within me the ability to transgress His Law, IOW sin.  That sinful nature that still wars in my members will not result in my death but rather in my life.  It is that resistance that causes me to trust more in His immutability and less on my own willpower.  I thank God daily that I can't lose my salvation by doing something "not pleasing" to God.  Lord knows that if it were up to me I would have lost my salvation a million times and more.

We are righteous, and what we do is sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

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I agree.  However, as is shown explicitly on this MB Christians, myself included, are often the worst offenders of God's Law because we know the truth and do it not.

We participate in the divine nature, right here and now. Obviously not to the extent we will after our death, but God still dwells within us. Those faithful who have died before us are not cut off from the Body of Christ, but are instead even more a part of it.

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I would agree with this except to say the faithful who have died before us are "even more a part" of the Body of Christ.  As I said, I don't believe that anyone is righteous by their own actions, before or after dying.  Therefore, our righteousness is something credited to us on account of the actions of another, that being Jesus.

We try to pay attention to our brothers needs and pray for them, but we can only do it imperfectly.

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I agree.

God bless.

But those were PERSONAL sufferings, having nothing to do with us. Strangers cannot suffer for each other. Mary's pain was the result of watch her own offspring die painfully, and did NOTHING to sanctify us or make us righteous.

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1 Corinthians 12:26

And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

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In a very real sense, anything that happens to you, happens to me. No, Mary's suffering did not sanctify you nor me (nor has anyone claimed that), but it did effect you and I. Just look, we are having a conversation about it 2000 years after the fact.

What is being said is that Mary is righteous and her prayers are effective. Not that she ever redeemed anyone by her own power, nor that she is divine.

Neal

Mary is no more special than lambslove, but I will not pray to lambslove. Asking lambslove to pray ALONG SIDE OF ME is different than me praying TO HER.

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Lambslove couldn't answer your prayers, because she is merely human. Although she loves you as a sibling-in-Christ, her will is not always done. The best she can do is pray FOR you, too.

I have a dear friend who dedicated all her children to Mary. If I were Mary, I would be repulsed by that. The object of Mary's devotion was God, not herself. Mary was an instrument of God, like so many others before her, but she was not God, not divine, not a co-equal to Christ, not the Mother of God, not anything more than a human being who made herself available to God's will. Like Samuel, Elijah, Joshua, Isaiah, Ezra, and all the rest who madethemselves available to God. Human, that's all.

To Dave:

Asking lambslove to pray ALONG SIDE OF ME is different than me praying TO HER.

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And that is EXACTLY what Catholics are doing when they ask a saint to pray for them. It is a miscommunication, often on behalf of many Catholics themselves, to say that we "pray to Saints," as someone would pray to God. The saint does not answer prayers. The saint is not divine. The saint merely lifts up his or her voice to yours to glorify God.

Part of the problem is in the very word, "to pray." In a more archaic form of English, it means to beseech someone, to ask of someone. It's still used in legal wording today, and even in British courtrooms.

If you personally don't want to ask a "dead saint" to pray for you, that's fine. But there is nothing wrong with someone else asking a saint to join him in prayer.


Peace,
~VOW

Originally posted by VOW
Isshinwhat's remark about Mary sharing in the divine mysteries was in reference to her being the Mother of God. Without her cooperation, Jesus would not have been available to hang on the cross.

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Mary's cooperation?&nbsp; So, she had a choice in the matter?&nbsp; I don't remember Gabriel asking Mary for her permission one time.&nbsp; In fact, he said, ""Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.<SUP>&nbsp; </SUP>And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS.<SUP>&nbsp; </SUP>He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.<SUP>&nbsp; </SUP>And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."

Did he say, "If it's okay with you God wants you to bear a child even though you are a virgin?"&nbsp; Or, "Would you mind calling Him Jesus?"&nbsp; No.&nbsp; He said, "You will" and you "shall call His name Jesus."&nbsp; Not a whole lot of asking for Mary's "cooperation."

Just out of curiosity VOW, what do you think would have happened had she said, "Naaah.&nbsp; I'll pass."&nbsp; Do you believe God's Will such a tentative thing that He relies on our "cooperation" to ensure His&nbsp;Will is done?&nbsp;

But the Scriptural support shows that we are to pray for one another, and because of the PROMISE of Jesus, the "dead saints" are not DEAD, but alive in Christ.

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I have never disputed the scriptural support for praying for one another.&nbsp; I&nbsp;am confused, and concerned,&nbsp;by the veneration shown to the level of&nbsp;influence Mary's intercessory prayers have in our appeal.&nbsp; I have never seen a prayer on paper, practiced by an entire denomination, called "Holy VOW, saint of God."&nbsp; By the way, I don't mean that maliciously or sarcastically.&nbsp; It's just seems quite obvious that you believe Mary's intercessory prayers to be more help than that of the saved individual at your church who you might go to for help in dealing with a burden.

I wasn't aware of Methodists honoring saints. The denomination most similar to Catholicism is Episcopal, with Lutheran right behind. Both of those denominations recognize saints.

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Well, sorry.&nbsp; I'm most likely wrong.&nbsp; My parents are Methodists, kinda.&nbsp; Don't know much about those others.&nbsp; What I do find ironic is that one of the religions you mention as being "most similar" to Catholicism is Lutheran.&nbsp;&nbsp;Strange, don'tcha think?&nbsp;

Thanks for your input VOW.

God bless.