Praying to Saints

Angelo · Sep 3, 2002

I'm a little torn by this question.  Is it all right to pray to Saints or Mary?  I'm a Non-denominational Christian so I never have done that.  But I know it is allowed in the Catholic Churches (I used to be one).  So I'm just wondering if there is anything wrong with it.

ZiSunka · Sep 3, 2002

Of what use would it be to pray to dead people? They're dead.

MizDoulos · Sep 3, 2002

Angelo, your thread has been moved here as the forum, "Questions About Christianity," is basically for non-Christians who wish to find out more about the Bible.

Reformationist · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by Angelo
Is it all right to pray to Saints or Mary?

What do you mean by "all right?"  Do you mean beneficial?  Do you mean efficacious?

Not trying to nitpick, just wondering?

God bless.

nyj · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by lambslove
Of what use would it be to pray to dead people? They're dead.

Hebrews 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us...

I think I'm going to trust in Jesus Christ on this one. Those who die trusting in Him, while they may lose this life, gain something much greater by shedding this mortal coil. Dead? Hardly. Rather, alive as alive can be.

Loser For Jesus · Sep 3, 2002

I think I'll just stick to praying to God on this one. Why would I want to pray to anyone else? Is coming into the presence of the living God not enough?

love in Christ,
Malcolm

VOW · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by lambslove
Of what use would it be to pray to dead people? They're dead.

John 11: 25-26

25 Jesus told Martha, "I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die."

Peace be with you,
~VOW

nyj · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by Loser For Jesus
Why would I want to pray to anyone else?

Well Malcolm,

Then don't ever EVER ask anyone to pray for you. You see, the word pray means "to ask". So if you were to ask someone to say a prayer for you, you're technically (and the way Catholics understand the word) praying to them to pray for you.

Reformationist · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by nyj
Well Malcolm,

Then don't ever EVER ask anyone to pray for you. You see, the word pray means "to ask". So if you were to ask someone to say a prayer for you, you're technically (and the way Catholics understand the word) praying to them to pray for you.

 

Since you deem it beneficial to have Mary intercede on you behalf do you think your prayer is more likely to be answered if she does so? :scratch:

Do you think that intercession on your behalf by anyone, including Mary, the Pope, your fellow Catholic, etc is a determining factor in whether God grants that request? :scratch:

Thanks for the insight.

God bless.

Trento · Sep 3, 2002

Lamblove

<TABLE height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0>

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Of what use would it be to pray to dead people? They're dead

 

[size="][B][size=1][color=#000099][/size][/B]

[/color][/size][font=Verdana][size="]
[size="]The saints are alive according to this epistle which was read
and considered scripture in the early Church for over 150 years. The Encyclical Epistle of the Church of Smyrna concerning the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp. These are the last few paragraphs. Polycarp lived in the mid-second century. He had spent time in Rome around A.D. 154-55, but is best known as a Bishop of Smyrna. In fact, he was bishop there when Ignatius passed through that city on his way to martydom in Rome around 110 A.D. MartPoly 19:2 Having by his endurance overcome the unrighteous ruler in the conflict and so received the crown of immortality, he rejoiceth in company with the Apostles and all righteous men, and glorifieth the Almighty God and Father, and blesseth our Lord Jesus Christ, the savior of our souls and helmsman of our bodies and shepherd of the universal Church which is throughout the world. MartPoly 20:1 Ye indeed required that the things which happened should be shown unto you at greater length: but we for the present have certified you as it were in a summary through our brother Marcianus. When then ye have informed yourselves of these things, send the letter about likewise to the brethren which are farther off, that they also may glorify the Lord, who maketh election from His own servants. MartPoly 20:2 Now unto Him that is able to bring us all by His grace and bounty unto His eternal kingdom, through His only-begotten Son Jesus Christ, be glory, honor, power, and greatness for ever. Salute all the saints. They that are with us salute you, and Euarestus, who wrote the letter, with his whole house. MartPoly 21:1 Now the blessed Polycarp was martyred on the second day of the first part of the month Xanthicus, on the seventh before the calends of March, on a great Sabbath, at the eighth hour. He was apprehended by Herodes, when Philip of Tralles was high priest, in the proconsulship of Statius Quadratus, but in the reign of the Eternal King Jesus Christ. To whom be the glory, honor, greatness, and eternal throne, from generation to generation. Amen. MartPoly 22:1 We bid you God speed, brethren, while ye walk by the word of Jesus Christ which is according to the Gospel; with whom be glory to God for the salvation of His holy elect; even as the blessed Polycarp suffered martyrdom, in whose footsteps may it be our lot to be found in the kingdom of Jesus Christ. MartPoly 22:2 This account Gaius copied from the papers of Irenaeus, a disciple of Polycarp. The same also lived with Irenaeus. MartPoly 22:3 And I Socrates wrote it down in Corinth from the copy of Gaius. Grace be with all men. MartPoly 22:4 And I Pionius again wrote it down from the aforementioned copy, having searched it out (for the blessed Polycarp showed me in a revelation, as I will declare in the sequel), gathering it together when it was now well nigh worn out by age, that the Lord Jesus Christ may gather me also with His elect into His heavenly kingdom; to whom be the glory with the Father and the Holy Spirit for ever and ever. Amen. {2*** THE THREE PROCEEDING PARAGRAPHS AS READ IN THE MOSCOW MS. ***}2 {9 MartPoly 22:2 This account Gaius copied from the papers of Irenaeus. The same lived with Irenaeus who had been a disciple of the holy Polycarp. For this Irenaeus, being in Rome at the time of the martyrdom of the bishop Polycarp, instructed many; and many most excellent and orthodox treatises by him are in circulation. In these he makes mention of Polycarp, saying that he was taught by him. And he ably refuted every heresy, and handed down the catholic rule of the Church just as he had received it from the saint. He mentions this fact also, that when Marcion, after whom the Marcionites are called, met the holy Polycarp on one occasion, and said 'Recognize us, Polycarp,' he said in reply to Marcion, 'Yes indeed, I recognize the firstborn of Satan.' The following statement also is made in the writings of Irenaeus, that on the very day and hour when Polycarp was martyred in Smyrna Irenaeus being in the city of the Romans heard a voice as of a trumpet saying, ' Polycarp is martyred.' MartPoly 22:3 From these papers of Irenaeus then, as has been stated already, Gaius made a copy, and from the copy of Gaius Isocrates made another in Corinth. MartPoly <B>22:4 And I Pionius again wrote it down from the copy of Isocrates, having searched for it in obedience to a revelation of the holy Polycarp,</B> gathering it together, when it was well nigh worn out by age, that the Lord Jesus Christ may gather me also with His elect into His heavenly kingdom; to whom be the glory with the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit for ever and ever. Amen. .
Looks like Polycarp appeared to the Author and gave him details of what transpired SAINTS ALIVE.[/size][/size][/font]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Reformationist · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by Trento
The Encyclical Epistle of the Church of Smyrna concerning the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp

Is this text recognized by the Protestant movement?

MartPoly 19:2...MartPoly 20:1...MartPoly 20:2...MartPoly 21:1...MartPoly 22:1...MartPoly 22:2...MartPoly 22:3...MartPoly 22:4

Are these supposed to be scripture notations?

C'mon Trento.  You're not actually trying to answer this question by citing a non-scriptural reference that isn't accepted by the reformation movement?  Are you?

I'm confused, please explain.

God bless.

DaveKerwin · Sep 3, 2002

God is the source of all good things, and he alone sits on the throne. Only he can answer prayers, so I will pray to him directly, I don't need a middle man. If you need one, then go ahead, but I will go right to the big man. It's like calling my lawyer. I don't want to talk to the secretary, I want to talk to him directly. Same with God. I go right to God. So I say go directly to the source of everything, because only he can do what you ask.

ZiSunka · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by Trento
Lamblove

The saints are alive according to this epistle which was read
and considered scripture in the early Church for over 150 years. The Encyclical Epistle of the Church of Smyrna concerning the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp. These are the last few paragraphs. Polycarp lived in the mid-second century. ....And I Pionius again wrote it down from the copy of Isocrates, having searched for it in obedience to a revelation of the holy Polycarpgathering it together, when it was well nigh worn out by age, that the Lord Jesus Christ may gather me also with His elect into His heavenly kingdom; to whom be the glory with the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit for ever and ever. Amen. .
Looks like Polycarp appeared to the Author and gave him details of what transpired SAINTS ALIVE.

I'm one of those Bible-only Christians, therefore, catholic tradition, no matter how wordy, means nothing to me.

If we have the authority through Jesus Christ to go boldly into the thrown room to ask of God anything we wish, why on earth would we bother asking some dead person to ask Him for us? ?

Trento · Sep 3, 2002

Sorry Brothers and sisters i was under the impression from historical Patristic texts that they preserved the words of Jesus and his teachings  then passed it on to followers who eventually sorted through these and chose the table of contents for the Bible. For myself if i can trust that they chose the Contents of the Bible correctly which is a tradition of my Church i will trust them in other traditional matters. I respect your tradition and  leave it at that.

Brian45 · Sep 4, 2002

Originally posted by lambslove
Of what use would it be to pray to dead people? They're dead.

 

I couldn't agree more ,  as a matter of fact , I can't remember the last time I had a conversation with a dead person , and if I did , it was probibly over a dead issue ,  then again , maybe i'm a dead beat .            

ZiSunka · Sep 4, 2002

nyj · Sep 4, 2002

Originally posted by Reformationist
Since you deem it beneficial to have Mary intercede on you behalf do you think your prayer is more likely to be answered if she does so?

Well Reformationist, I'd hate to cloud the issue with Scripture, but since you asked, the answer is "Yes".

"The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit." - James 5:16-18

"He hears the prayers of the righteous." - Proverbs 15:29

How much more righteous can one be than one who shares fully in the divine mysteries of Jesus salvific actions on the cross?

Originally posted by Reformationist
Do you think that intercession on your behalf by anyone, including Mary, the Pope, your fellow Catholic, etc is a determining factor in whether God grants that request?

Intercessory prayer is good and pleasing to God.

"First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth." - 1 Timothy 2:1-4

Yes, I believe that such (having Mary or a Christian friend [i.e.: a righteous person] pray for me on my behalf... btw I notice how you only targeted Catholics for mockery in your post) may very well be the case. Of course, I wouldn't ask just anyone to pray for me on my behalf... Would you ask an unbeliever to pray on your behalf Reformationist? Would you ask an athiest to say a prayer for you Reformationist? I doubt it, and hence you asking me this question is somewhat hypocritical.

Originally posted by Reformationist
Thanks for the insight.

It's always a pleasure to correct people's misunderstandings so they can see the Biblical Accuracy of Catholicism.

Reformationist · Sep 4, 2002

Originally posted by nyj
Well Reformationist, I'd hate to cloud the issue with Scripture, but since you asked, the answer is "Yes".

"The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit." - James 5:16-18

"He hears the prayers of the righteous." - Proverbs 15:29

Thanks for sharing the scripture nyj.  I am not questioning the power of prayer.  Prayer is definitely one method by which God defines and enacts His Divine Will.  But neither one of those scriptures you noted shows any support for praying to dead saints for intercessory prayer.  Further, prayer doesn't change God's immutable plan.  If you pray for rain to Mary, or the Pope or you and a bunch of Christians get together and pray for rain it's not like God says, "Finally!  Now I can have my Will be done."

How much more righteous can one be than one who shares fully in the divine mysteries of Jesus salvific actions on the cross?

Well, despite what your church might teach their aren't "levels of righteousness."  You're either righteous, or you're not.  Christ's death made me righteous in God's eyes.  Are my works righteous?  Of course not.  But, again, I'm not saved by my righteousness.  I'm saved by His.  My salvation is based on nothing I did, do, or will do.  It's based on what Jesus did for me.  My point is that regardless of whether praying to a dead Christian for their intercessory prayer is beneficial or not, it is no more or less beneficial than having a fellow Christian pray with you.  Either way, it doesn't change God's plan.

Intercessory prayer is good and pleasing to God.

Well,...I would agree.  I would also say any kind of prayer that exalts God pleases Him. 

Yes, I believe that such (having Mary or a Christian friend [i.e.: a righteous person] pray for me on my behalf... btw I notice how you only targeted Catholics for mockery in your post) may very well be the case.

I apologize if you feel I was "targeting" anyone.  I just wasn't aware that anyone else prayed to saints, except maybe Methodists, which in my opinion are pretty much Protestant Catholics, a least by the nature of their faith and the things involved in it, such as praying to saints.

Of course, I wouldn't ask just anyone to pray for me on my behalf... Would you ask an unbeliever to pray on your behalf Reformationist? Would you ask an athiest to say a prayer for you Reformationist? I doubt it, and hence you asking me this question is somewhat hypocritical.

Must you always be so confrontational?  My comments weren't spawned from a desire to target your church.  Maybe you should not always assume the worst:

1 Corinthians 13:4-7
Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;<SUP> </SUP>does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;<SUP> </SUP>does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;<SUP> </SUP>bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

It's always a pleasure to correct people's misunderstandings so they can see the Biblical Accuracy of Catholicism.

1 Corinthians 13:4
Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up.

Sorry to "cloud the issue with Scripture."

God bless.

ZiSunka · Sep 4, 2002

How much more righteous can one be than one who shares fully in the divine mysteries of Jesus salvific actions on the cross?

When did Mary hang on the cross? :scratch:

I can't find that in my Bible.

isshinwhat · Sep 4, 2002

Through our sanctification we begin to participate more fully in the life we have through Christ, until our death when we participate fully. Nothing was said about Mary ever hanging on a cross.

Praying to Saints

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