Saved by faith alone?

Originally posted by The Bible is Right
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Here's a question to you and all others who use Eph 2:8,9 out of context.

Why do you neglect the first seven verses of this chapter?

If you would study the verses carefully you would not miss what the apostle Paul is teaching about works. 

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Excatly how do we use Eph 2:8,9 out of context? If anything James 2:14 is used out of context.

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Originally posted by Elnaam
Excatly how do we use Eph 2:8,9 out of context? If anything James 2:14 is used out of context.

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What does Eph 2:1 teach?

"James then illustrates how Works of faith are essential. Simply believing is not enough.
"

*sigh* you clearly miss what James is saying about the relationship between faith and works. He says works grow out of faith, but are not needed for it to exsist. you also have to remember this. James was CLEARLY writing to believers ONLY. He was giving them a kick in the pants saying Do what you said you would do, you're a christian so act like it. He was not saying you're not a christian because you don't do stuff. That is clearly evidienced by the reading of the whole book. So to tell someone they can't get saved without works according to James is very much taking the passage out of context.

A dead faith is no faith and connot save anyone.

James 2:14 "Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?

Why cant that faith save him, because there are no works.  And without works, says James, faith is dead.  And there is no salvation, clearly says James.

Some thought otherwise, clearly like yourself, hence the council and warning.

JAS 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

This is simply a statement that a man can lie, play church, whatever you want to call it. It dosn't say that a man has to work for salvation.

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Originally posted by eldermike
JAS 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

This is simply a statement that a man can lie, play church, whatever you want to call it. It dosn't say that a man has to work for salvation.

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Will you address Eph.2:1-7, so that we can get some understanding of vs 8-9?  Take one verse at a time. 

JAS 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

This is simply a statement that a man can lie, play church, whatever you want to call it. It dosn't say that a man has to work for salvation.

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? Let me see now - what faith is the man claiming to have here? Is he making the claim to have the Christian faith, do you suppose? The claim may be a lie, but "that faith" doesn't refer to the claim, it refers to the faith spoken of in the first instance. And as pointed out previously - the passage as rendered in the AV is in this instance the more accurate... "can faith save him?" Faith cannot save the person who has no works.

Ephesians 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; OK - you were once dead because of your sins and trespasses, but Christ has given you life.

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Hmmm. Oh this IS a toughy.... ummm.... Oh right, you formerly were disobedient.

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. We used to spend our time in unrighteous pursuits (same as everyone else)

Oh my.... the author must really have been having a bad day to write such nonsense. Why, this passage says that God in his grace rescued us from being unable to overcome sin. We didn't climb out of the mire by ourselves, God did it. So far, that is fine. BUT the author made the mistake of saying that we no longer do those things. THIS is unacceptable.

[Ephesians 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; OK - you were once dead because of your sins and trespasses, but Christ has given you life.]

How did Christ give us life?

EPH 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.



Why would anyone read Eph 1-7 and then stop when it says

"FOR"

and then gives the reason for the first 7 verses.

Read the rest of it.

Blessings

Originally posted by eldermike
EPH 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.



Why would anyone read Eph 1-7 and then stop when it says

"FOR"

and then gives the reason for the first 7 verses.

Read the rest of it.

Blessings

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Excellent post

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Originally posted by eldermike
EPH 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.]



Blessings

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Verse 5 saids He God made us alive with Christ!  Is there any scriptures that can give us understanding as to what this text is saying?  Have you notice vs. 6?  It saids that God raised us up with Christ Jesus.  And as I stated before, when we understand what it means to be raised up then we will understand God grace through faith, and what it really means. 

Bible,

You are in *check mate* my friend. We know what it means, He said it's a gift.

Blessings to you

Originally posted by eldermike
Bible,

You are in *check mate* my friend. We know what it means, He said it's a gift.

Blessings to you

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Eph. 2:5,6.  You say we know what it means.  Show it by the scriptures then you can teach me how to play chess.

Bible,
I am trying. But first we have to be humble, asked the HS to show us. It is not me who does anything. I am only a servant. I will be back later.

Blessings

REV 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

1PE 3:7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

JAS 1:16 Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. 17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

EPH 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

2CO 9: 15 Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!

RO 6: 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

RO 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

RO 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

RO 4:4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

RO 4:7 "Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.

RO 4:8 Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

AC 11:15 "As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: `John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"

AC 8:18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money 19 and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."

AC 8:20 Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God

JN 4:10 Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."

Thank you The Bible is right. I had not noticed before how clear those verses in Eph 1 and 2 tie together with faith and baptism. If you don't mind I want to elobrate on what I am talking about.

In Eph 1:19-23 we see how the mighty working of God raised Jesus from the dead. Then in Eph 2:1-10 we see how through the working of God that we we were made alive with Christ. Let's look at this a little closer.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6 And hath raised <I>us </I>up together, and made <I>us </I>sit together in heavenly <I>places </I>in Christ Jesus:

Now from these verse I want you note that it is through the working of God that we are quickened together with Christ being raised up together. The question is how are quickened with Christ or raised up with him? Well Elder Mike,&nbsp;lets let the Holy Spirit give us the answer as you like to say.

Col2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with <I>him </I>through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

What did the Holy Spirit just tell us Elder Mike? He just told us that when we were baptized that we&nbsp;were buried with him and that we were risen with christ through the working of God. We also see in verse 13 that is was at&nbsp;the point of baptism that we were quickened together with Jesus and it was at that point that are sins were forgiven. These verse bring great clarity to Eph 2:8-9 because baptism into Christ is not a work of man but a work of God. Let us let the Holy Spirit tell us more from Rom 6.

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also <I>in the likeness </I>of <I>his </I>resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with <I>him</I>, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Wow the word of God is so clear.&nbsp;When did we die with Christ? It was at the point of baptism. When we are baptized into Christ we become a new creature and should walk in the newness of life. Check out how this goes right along with Eph 2:10. See also 2Cor 5:17. Notice in verse 5 that it is not until we are baptized that we get the promise of being in the likeness of his resurrection. Verse 6 again tells us that at the point of baptism our body of sin is detroyed that is our sins are washed away just like Pauls. Acts 22:16. Verse 7 again tells us that when we died in baptism with christ we were then freed from sin. Verse 8 again notice the conditional verse. If you died with Christ in baptism then we have the promise of being able to live with him. As far I can tell this is very clear and easy to understand.

So that there is not confusion I want you to understand that I belive that we are saved by Grace and faith. These are definatly part of the salvation plan, but they are not the ONLY part of the salvation plan. Repentence, confessing Jesus as Lord and Baptism also save you. It is all these things working together . If you take one of them&nbsp;away you are not saved. I hope that you will reconsider your view Elder Mike and be buried with Christ in baptism today having your sins washed away and being raised up a new creature in Christ being added to the church by God which is Jesus body.

God Bless,

Cougan

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"Repentence, confessing Jesus as Lord and Baptism also save you"

so tell me what if you live in a desert and water is very very scarce. Can you not be saved at all?

Ahh the old what if question. You can come up with a ton of those. What if a person had to cross the street to be baptized and a car runs them over and kills them, were they saved? See I gave good one myself LB.

I could ask you a similar question. What if a preacher was going to preach the word of God to this man that lived in this house. The man in the house would of accepted the word of God but the man falls down the stairs while going to answer the door that the preacher was knocking at. The man dies. Would he be saved?

You see LB we could go round and round with the what if questions. Now lets give you the benifit of the doubt and say that God consisdered these people saved in these very very very rare instances WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH YOU? I am assuming with your story that these people in this desert were not going to be able to be dipped into water before they died because they were lost or something. I can tell you doesnt take that much water to fill a tub or that deep of a pond to be able to submerge someone. Again I ask what does that have to do with you? Are you being killed as your going to be baptized? Are you lost in a desert when you decide to become a christian and cant find water before you die? All I can tell you LB is that the bible clearly states that it is at the point of baptism that our sins are removed and that we are joined together with Christ through our obedience of faith. Anything beyond that is up to God.

In the whole book of Eph. you will find the word water used once. It is a reference to the word of God as being like water.

EPH 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

Baptisim of the Spirit is a work of God and only a work of God.

Getting wet is good, but if you go into the water unsaved, you will come out unsaved.

My appologies, wrong topic.