The questions about Sabbath and Baptism

Hector Medina · Aug 31, 2002

Hello All,

Do you think that we should be celebrating the sabbath on Sunday?
Do you think there is enough reason to curve the original Sat. sabbath.
I myself try to compromise on both Sat.&Sun.
At first I was going just on Sun. as most christians do but then I felt the 8th commandment shouden't be curved.

Is there biblical proof that Jesus Christ wanted us to change it on the day he came back(Sun.)?

Or is it a man-made change,probably by Rome?
And knowing all the unfair/pagan(or atleast I find them to be) things Rome made so I fear of this to be pagan.

I also heard about something in the eucharist to do with worshiping the sun being pagan.............
anyone know about that?

Also would anyone know if the bible states a certain age for baptisim?
It make me wonder since Baptists prefer adults/teenager age when most others prefer infant/child age and such?
I believe Rome starting baptizing children/infants so I'm afariad of that too....

-Hector

\o/ · Aug 31, 2002

Tell me where God considers the starting place (dateline) on the globe.

MrMalone · Aug 31, 2002

Sabbath is a day of rest. Do it on Tuesday if you have to. The point of it is to take a day off. Our bodies aren't designed to go 100% all the time. I admit I sometimes go through a couple weeks without a day off. I take no time out to reflect on God or just rest at all. It's bad for you.

We just use "Sunday" as a time when most people can get off and we can come together, you know, fellowship and stuff, but I don't think it really matters.

I think Catholics believe in infant baptism because a "whole household" was baptised once in the new testament by Paul or Peter or something. I think they "assume" that there must have been little children there or something, thus a person should be baptised when they are an infant. (That logic is obviously flawed) However, if I really need to, I can maybe find the reference again if you need it.

Maybe someone that actually believes in this infant baptism thing can explain it. I would like to hear it.

The bible says nothing about any rights of confirmation or anything like that at all.

I believe the age you have to be to be baptised is when you are old enough to confess the Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead AND you are able to understand what baptism means and you decide you want to obey God and do it.

\o/ · Aug 31, 2002

"I also heard about something in the eucharist to do with worshiping the sun being pagan.............
anyone know about that?"

If a response with information is given, Catholics will complain to the moderators, the post will be deleted, and the poster will be banned. You cannot expect an answer on this forum. I suggest you ask here: www.theologyonline.com

MrMalone · Aug 31, 2002

Originally posted by \o/

If a response with information is given, Catholics will complain to the moderators, the post will be deleted, and the poster will be banned. You cannot expect an answer on this forum. 

Why?

Annabel Lee · Aug 31, 2002

Hector and \o/

I realize youre having a heck of a good time baiting Catholics but do you really think you are scoring brownie points in Heaven by spreading false information about your fellow Christians?

Instead of discussing it in a childish passive -aggressive manner, why dont you go over to OneBread OneBody" and ask for information like adults?

MrMalone · Aug 31, 2002

Easy Annabel,

a) Hector was asking legitimate questions.
b) Nobody was spreading false information about fellow Christians but me possibly
c) Why do we have to go somewhere else to ask for information like adults?
d) Why is this thread bait... do you forsee a problem with discussing infant baptism?

excreationist · Aug 31, 2002

Hector Medina:
The Sabbath day goes from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.

This is from ReligiousTolerance.org:

......
Why and When the Weekly Sabbath was Moved

During the period 30 CE to 313 CE, Christians lived in a predominately Pagan world:

- The long established, official religion of the Roman Empire was Pagan.
- A strong competitor to Christianity in those days was a third religion: Mithraism. This faith involved the worship of a Persian God Mithra, and was popular among the Roman civil service and military.

Both of these religions reserved Sunday as their day of religious observance. Many Christians were probably tempted to follow suit.

The Christians were also motivated to change the Sabbath day as a method of distancing themselves from the Jews. Two reasons were:

- The Government was intermittently persecuting the Jews at this time; it was safer for Christianity to be considered as a separate religion rather than as a sect of Judaism.
- Relations between the Jews and Christians was hostile at this time. The early Christian church had suffered much persecution from the Jews.

In 321 CE, while a Pagan sun-worshiper, the Emperor Constantine declared that Sunday was to be a day of rest:

"On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost."

The Church Council of Laodicea circa 364 CE ordered that religious observances were to be conducted on Sunday, not Saturday. Sunday became the new Sabbath. They ruled: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day." There are many indicators in the historical record that some Christians ignored the Church's ruling. Sabbath observance was noted in Wales in 1115 CE. Francis Xavier was concerned about Sabbath worship in Goa India in 1560 CE; he called for the Inquisition to set up an office there to stamp out what he called "Jewish wickedness". A Catholic Provincial Council suppressed the practice in Norway in 1435 CE.
......

The commandment about not working on the Sabbath used to be pretty important - it was one of the Ten Commandments after all.

The penalty for working on the Sabbath was death.

Exodus 31:15
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.

Exodus 35:2
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord . Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

Numbers 15:32-36
While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lord commanded Moses.

Help-me-learn · Aug 31, 2002

Think about this. According to this, Exodus 31:15
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.

It is very clear that there is only one day to rest. That means you must work 6, and that is so you will appreciate the 7th. If you rest from your work anyother day plus the sabbath, you have broken the sabbath.

MrMalone · Sep 1, 2002

Any information on infant baptism anyone??

Cool info excreationist.

LightBearer · Sep 1, 2002

The sabbath was a requirement for the Jews under the Mosaic Law. Since the old law covenant has passed away it is no longer a requirement for them. Christians have never been reqired to keep the Sabbath.

excreationist · Sep 1, 2002

LightBearer:
So that man who gathered wood on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36) and perhaps many others (Exodus 31:15, 35:2) were killed just because of some "old law covenant"?

Also, sometimes Christians complain about people working on Sundays... if the Sabbath doesn't apply to them then they don't have any reason to complain. And as I said in another thread, there are only 9 commandments that apply to Christians then... I think they should just call it "The Nine Commandments".

Brian45 · Sep 1, 2002

Here's some info guys on why we worship on sunday instead of saturday .

Personly I don't think it matters , but yes , the day was changed .

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/sunday.htm#

 

Pastor N.B. · Sep 1, 2002

Originally posted by LightBearer
The sabbath was a requirement for the Jews under the Mosaic Law. Since the old law covenant has passed away it is no longer a requirement for them. Christians have never been reqired to keep the Sabbath.

********
Hi, don't run & hide!

(added highlight & the 'C'aps are for emphasis also)
And 'i' see that the last poster gives us a site to read of what another person believes? Surely that is not good enough for us!

I am responding because your above paragraph sounds sincere?

If you are, them lets back up [everything with scripture alone], Ok?
The Scripture & then what [you or I] think that means? And then just leave the rest for the Holy Spirits leading! Rom. 8:14

Case in point: God worked in creation of earth 6 days, and the next day was His Sabbath Day! (not the Jews, but all of creation) He blessed the Day, and set it aside for 'Holy Use', He most likely gave Adam & Eve their first Sabbath sermon on that first Sabbath Day? You know, the [WARNING] to stay away from the forbidden fruit! Perhaps, some on the rebellion of the once perfect Lucifer even?

Anyway, the Sabbath day is, & was, the [Birthday of Creation]. You know, every seventh day was like an Sept. 11 reminder? Or every year that comes around, we have a birthday for a reminder? (REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY??...) Ok: lets look up a 'Word' found in the Bible, but lets see what 'The Merriam Webster Dictionary' has to say about it first? The Word is MEMORIAL,
"something designed to keep [remembrance] (my marks) alive: MONUMENT." The caps are theirs. Where do you think mankind gets memorials from? Even 'tombstones'? Even 2/3 majority in the government? you remember 1/3 were cast out of heaven leaving 'two thirds' in command?

OK: In Psalms 135:13 we read the Master's [inspiration].
"Thy name, O Lord, endureth forever; (how long is that? But we have no problem with that do we? FOREVER IS ALRIGHT! Now notice the rest of the verse)
and [Thy] MEMORIAL THROUGHOUT [ALL] GENERATIONS." And how long is that?? And Who does it say is the OWNERSHIP of this ETERNAL ALL GENERATION MEMORIAL?? There were no such thing as a Jew back then my friend!

In closing: Just think of the 'TIME' element of the Words Word, (Christ) that of 'MEMORIAL? It is A SETTING ASIDE OF A 'SACRED TIME' that GOD [BLESSED AND SET ASIDE FOR HOLY USE]' OK? Got it? Now, also this SABBATH DAY IS SET SET IN CONCRETE & WRITTEN IN THE CENTER OF THE TABLES OF STONE. WHICH [GOD WROTE HIMSELF], AND WHICH [HE] SAID TO [*REMEMBER]! OK? (the rest of Bible was penned in mens words of explaining)

Now notice the closing verse! And think of the Master telling us that [something] would "deceive the very elect if it were possible"?

Daniel 7:25 says:
"And he (satan) shall speak great words against the [Most High], and shall wear out the [saints of the Most High], (NOTICE!) [and think to CHANGE *TIMES (HIS MEMORIAL!) *AND LAWS." (The FORTH COMMANDMENT OF HIS ROYAL LAW IS THE ONLY ONE DEALING WITH TIMES) try 1 John 2:4-James 2:8-10.

P/N/B/

LightBearer · Sep 1, 2002

Originally posted by excreationist
LightBearer:
So that man who gathered wood on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36) and perhaps many others (Exodus 31:15, 35:2) were killed just because of some "old law covenant"?

Also, sometimes Christians complain about people working on Sundays... if the Sabbath doesn't apply to them then they don't have any reason to complain. And as I said in another thread, there are only 9 commandments that apply to Christians then... I think they should just call it "The Nine Commandments".

Jesus, being a Jew under the Law, observed the Sabbath as Gods Word (not the Pharisees) directed. He knew it was lawful to do fine things on the Sabbath. (Mt 12:12) However, the inspired Christian writings state that Christ is the end of the Law (Ro 10:4), which results in Christians being discharged from the Law. (Ro 7:6) Neither Jesus nor his disciples made any distinction between so-called moral and ceremonial laws. They quoted from the other parts of the Law as well as from the Ten Commandments and considered all of it equally binding on those under the Law. (Mt 5:21-48; 22:37-40; Ro 13:8-10; Jas 2:10, 11) The Scriptures plainly state that Christs sacrifice abolished . . . the Law of commandments consisting in decrees and that God blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees . . . and He has taken it out of the way. It was the complete Mosaic Law that was abolished, blotted out, taken out of the way. (Eph 2:13-15; Col 2:13, 14) Consequently, the whole system of Sabbaths, be they days or years, was brought to its end with the rest of the Law by the sacrifice of Christ Jesus. This explains why Christians can esteem one day as all others, whether it be a sabbath or any other day, with no fear of judgment by another. (Ro 14:4-6; Col 2:16) Paul made the following expression concerning those scrupulously observing days and months and seasons and years: I fear for you, that somehow I have toiled to no purpose respecting you. Ga 4:10,11.

After Jesus death, his apostles at no time commanded Sabbath observance. The Sabbath was not included as a Christian requirement at Acts 15:28, 29, or later. Nor did they institute a new sabbath, a day of the Lord. Even though Jesus was resurrected on the day now called Sunday, nowhere does the Bible indicate that this day of his resurrection should be commemorated as a new sabbath or in any other way

From the foregoing it is clear that literal observance of Sabbath days and years was not a part of first-century Christianity. It was not until 321 C.E. that Constantine decreed Sunday (Latin: dies Solis, an old title associated with astrology and sun worship, not Sabbatum [Sabbath] or dies Domini [Lords day]) to be a day of rest for all but the farmers.

excreationist · Sep 1, 2002

LightBearer:
How do Christians determine which things in the OT are just ceremonial laws for Jews and which are moral laws? e.g. is the command to kill witches a Jewish ceremonial law or a moral law? What about the command to kill men who engage in sex with other men? What about in Deuteronomy 13 where people are commanded to kill their loved ones if they try to get them to believe in any other gods, and raize cities of those who believe in other gods...? Are they ceremonial or moral laws?

Pastor N.B. · Sep 1, 2002

Originally posted by LightBearer

Jesus, being a Jew under the Law, observed the Sabbath as Gods Word (not the Pharisees) directed. He knew it was lawful to do fine things on the Sabbath. (Mt 12:12) However, the inspired Christian writings state that Christ is the end of the Law (zapped for content)
*********
First off: Only a spiritual Jew will be saved! So you might as well get used to being called a Jew. (Or worse, see Matt. 10:25) The only ones saved are these in Rom. 2:28-29 Do you have a problem being call a Christian Jew?

Your missive is very interesting for some perhaps? But the missive is not the [EVERLASTING GOSPEL & EVERLASTING COVENANT] of the New Testament. See Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20! This is some 'new 'g'ospel', but not really, for it started way back in heaven itself! The New Covenant is just placed in another location by the Born Again rebirth! See 2 Cor. 3:3
And ONLY these are BORN AGAIN as in Acts 5:32!

Notice: "For the [new heavens] and the [new earth], which I will make,...
And it shall come to pass, that from one [new moon to another, and from ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, SHALL [ALL] (saved) FLESH COME TO WORSHIP BEFORE ME, SAIETH THE LORD]." Isa. 66:22-23 in part & emphasis.

But some say that God changed the Memorial of Creation & blessed another day! BEWARE! Read Rev.'s last few verses of the Word of God, for the ones that had their names recorded at one time in the Lambs book of life, and they tried to change the Word of God, and then their names were removed from the Book of Life! (yet, that was, & is their free decision)

A God that CHANGETH? A God that is not the same yesterday, today and FOREVER? A GOD THAT CAN LIE? Who my friend has the power to change Gods WORD? NO ONE!! Not even the GodHead themselves, or,.. Christ would not have needed to HAVE DIED!

Notice:
Again on the LAST page of inspiration who it is that keep THE ROYAL LAW OF THE UNIVERSE! Gone? Done away with? Hardly!! Again this was the 'd'evils 'prophesied' work of Daniel 7:25.

Now for Rev. 22:8-9, John was aw'struck! "And I John saw these things, and heard them, And when I heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of [the angel] which shewed me these things.

Then saieth [HE] unto me, [SEE THOU DO IT NOT; FOR I AM YOUR FELLOWSERVANT , AND OF THE PROPHETS, *AND OF THEM THAT KEEP THE SAYINGS OF THIS BOOK; WORSHIP GOD]." All of these saved obedient ones are Jewish, huh? 'i' think not!! But yes, 's'atan & 1/3 of the angels did [blaspheme the Master by disobeying the 10 Commandment Royal law of the Universe]! And yes, he still wants us to bow down and worship him! Try Matt. 4:8-10. Thanks, but that is not for me my friend.
P/N/B/

Phoebe · Sep 1, 2002

Oh my... baptism again.
Baptism is a commandment of God. It is a work of God, not man. Unbelief will not change that fact. (Jewish baby boys are circumcized, but have no choice in the matter.)
Two households were mentioned in the Bible. Lydia's and the jailer's.
Lydia is mentioned in Acts 16;14, 15. It says nothing of her household believing first. (a household included not only family, but the servants and their families- Lydia was probably wealthy, she was a seller of purple)
The jailer is mentioned in Acts 16:27- 34.
1 Peter 3:21 reads, "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ..."

As far as Confirmation or Affirmation of Baptism not being mentioned in the Bible... Neither is the Thanksgiving Holiday, Christmas trees, etc... However, the Jewish children have Bat Mitzva and Bar Mitzva. (which is similar to confirmation)

Rafael · Sep 2, 2002

Our rest is no longer in a day, but in Jesus Christ. We rest from our labors in Him. His work accomplished our rest, which is what sabbath means. Our labor is to have faith in that which God has provided with the better covenant:

Matthew 12:8  For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Colossians 2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Hebrews 4:3  For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:9  There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Hebrews 4:10  For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 
Hebrews 4:11  Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
***
Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

*************************************

Traditions are OK and nothing wrong with them, but baptizm of water happens after the Spirit of truth (the Holy Spirit) leads a person to the truth about Jesus. Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit and this is that baptizm of being filled with the truth. Baptizm in water is of repentence and is a symbol to all that you have died with Christ (dead to self) and arose new, unto new life in Christ.

Acts 11:16  Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 1:5  For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

John speaking here of Jesus:

Matthew 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Luke 3:16  John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

   

 

Pastor N.B. · Sep 2, 2002

Forum:
There is a 'thread' on this Christian Forums site, called.. "Sunday Worship Is The Mark Of The Beast..."

You might be interested in posting up your thoughts there? 'i' believe that before it is all finished we will have unity as the Master prayed! But it will not be of the larger percentage of even 'professed' Christians!

So lets remember the last Words of the Master's warning to us from His 'Complete Book' at its ending verses, about a persons name being [removed from the Book of Life] if he or she, you, or 'i' [add or deleat anything from the Word of God. (And one of these two days is not Bibical)

And READ (ok?) Rev. 18:4 '*My people'? Me, you? Do you or i Love the Master enough to leave your denomination because we are [PARTAKERS] of her (their open) sins???? See Isa. 5:3. And SINS?? What LAW IS THIS?

Your true friend in the Master's quickly finished work for the 'House of God' [FIRST]. 1 Peter 4:17-Lev. 16:14
Pastor N.B.

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