Systematic Universalism

This should tell you that because Jesus was of the order of Melchizedek and that it is the same order after Melchizedek that those who believe shall reign as kings and priest follow that it has NOTHING to do with GENETICS.

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Melchizedek is eternal immortal spirit , an aspect of God himself, he had no birth thus he had no genetics [just as angels have no genetics] , but he [God the 'Father'] is manifest in Jesus who does have genetics, being made a man and thus having BIRTH [unlike the king of righteousness] ... thus Jesus does have descent in this sense for God from Israel, and Melchizedek is just as much immortal God as Jesus is as the Word [Logos] ...

For Melchizedek was NOT genetically linked to natural Israel.

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he had no genetics because he was never born !!

Melchizedek bespeaks of the NEW covenant of faith

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NO, he NEVER did !!! Jeremiah gives the first revelation of the new covenant [Jer 31:31-34] , Melchizedek never even prophesied as far as we know from the scripture

...that all who believe can take part in [the new covenant] whether they be genetically linked to natural Israel or not.

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well paul says NOT [Hebrews 8:3-13] and so does Jeremiah !!! [Jer 31:31-34]

and there are many other references to the enw covenant in scripture but NONE say it is with anyone but the House of Israela nd the House of Judah... so it is genetically linked that grace is given ONLY to Israel... and indeed no-one else needs unmerited forgiveness , for they are all freed from sin in death and MERIT their translation by living as saints in the righteous new earth... without sin [except that a few will sin in Jesus' kingdom, and die a second death and enter the lake of fire]

TRIBES and Houses of the elect can only mean true Israel, no-one else

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And true Israel is Israel of faith and has nothing to do with natural Israel.



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Originally Posted by Pneuma3
And that firstfruit that is taken out as a people for His name come from BOTH natural Israel and Gentile. Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

The House of Israel are TAKEN OUT of the Gentiles !! That does not make them gentiles even though they believe that they are genntiles [and so does everyone else except God]

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And the people taken out from the Gentiles is a people of faith, whether they be of the Gentiles or natural Israel.
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Stranger I realize Israel was scattered among the Gentile nation and God will call them back to Himself.These things are all a foreshadow of the church in Christ.That church is taken out of many nations.

Jesus says who that church are , the remnant of Israel , Jesus lists all 144,000 of the church in Rev 7:5-8 by the name of the son of Jacob from whom they are descended...

Thus they are indeed given FAITH by baptism of the spirit, but they are also descendants of Jacob, Jesus himself SAYS SO here , why do you disagree with Jesus ???? [Rev 7:3-8]

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I don’t disagree with Jesus, I disagree with YOU.
How many times must I point out that when one is grafted in one becomes a part of that which one is grafted into?
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Read the covenant God made with Abraham.

Genesis 17:4-21
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

Note that the covenant given to Abraham is that he would be a father of MANY NATIONS. This excludes the covenant being of just natural Israel.

No it doesn't , God's covenant with Abraham is a DIFFERENT covenant than the new covenant with Israel ...

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No it is not a different covenant; the covenant with Abraham was of PROMISE that in his SEED all the nations would be blessed. This is the NEW covenant and has NOTHING to do with the old covenant God made with natural Israel.
Galatians 3:8-9
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
The PROMISE to Abraham WAS the GOSPEL of the NEW covenant showing that the HEATHEN through FAITH would be JUSTIFIED.
Also of note is that Abraham was NOT an Israelite, but a Hebrew.

Abraham is indeed the father of many nations and the [grand]father of Jacob , but not all the descendants of Abraham receive the promise, not even do all the descendants of Jacob receive the promise, but onlt the 144,000 receive the covenant of grace because only they need it.

Try to sort out the different covenants and why each has its own significance, its own role to play... do not mix them up with each other...

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I have them sorted out you have them mixed up.
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7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Note thy seed is in reference to Jesus Christ. Galatians 3:16
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Agaqin do not mix up the facts that both Jesus and the children of Israel are seed , for instance note that here it refers to Israel as the seed [collective plural] :-

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Natural Israel is NOT the SEED, the seed is Christ and only HIM. You are mixing up natural Israel with Christ and as Gal.3:16 points out you are wrong to do this, for He saith NOT to SEEDS as of many; but as of ONE which SEED is Christ.
Although all who are in Christ by faith whether they be Gentile or natural Israel become a part of the ONE SEED.

Exodus 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven...

NOTE -Clearly plural here , not referring to Jesus alone

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Yes and that multiplying of the SEED is of faith in the ONE SEED (CHRIST) and has nothing to do with natural Israel.

Leviticus 22:3 Say unto them, Whosoever he be of all your seed among your generations, that goeth unto the holy things, which the children of Israel hallow unto the LORD

Nehemiah 9:2 And the seed of Israel separated themselves from all strangers, and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers.

Psalms 22:23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

---- One could go on and on, but why have you not read these scriptures, why do you falsely claim that seed MUST refer to Jesus alone ... clearly it need not be so and is not so... so reconsider your view because the scripture shows it is false...

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No my view is not false, do you deny the scriptures that states
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
No matter how many scriptures you produce that seem to state otherwise there is only ONE seed, Christ. Everyone else by faith whether they are gentile or natural Israel becomes a part of that ONE seed by being grafted into Christ.
What you seem to fail to realize is that when one is grafted in one becomes a part of that which one is grafted into. It could be a hundred thousand million but it would still be ONE seed Christ.

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Note that the covenant God made is that of circumcision.

I never doubted that the covenant with Abraham included circumcision friend!

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Never said you doubted it but its obvious you don’t understand the difference between natural circumcision and circumcision by faith.
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Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The children of House of Israel are not circumcised because they have been living as gentiles so long... one could not expect teh Jews to be able to cope easily with the new covenant which does not require circumcision until they are baptised of the spirit ...so indeed the remnant of the House of Israel are given baptism of the spirit and so are inwardly circumcised [of the heart] , not outwardly circumcised [of the flesh] ... but so will the remannat of the Jews be baptised of the spirit [indeed some already have, all Jesus' first disciples were Jews] ... so Both teh Jew and [apparent] gentile of the House of Israel are given grace by faith giive by spirit baptism , but not any other gentile until the second resurrection [of the unjust, of all the sinners of this earth , men who were NOT saints at death!]

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Circumcision of the flesh means nothing, circumcision of the heart by faith is what matters and I have given you many scriptures already that show the Gentile is circumcised by faith.



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13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

This is talking of the SAINTS of Israel , the 'us' does not refer to just anyone , but to those baptised of the spirit to know all truth in THIS life and so be ABLE top perfect their love in trial in THIS earth, unlike the many gentiles.... who remain sinners to death , death which frees them from sin, so why would they neeed grace ???? [God never offers it to them either, there is no NEED!]

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The above scripture is talking about everyone whether they be Gentile or of natural Israel receiving circumcision of the heart by faith.
This circumcision by faith is not given to natural Israel aloneas Paul and Jesus clearly demonstrate. Paul whole ministry was a ministry of GRACE and we both know Paul was sent to the Gentile nations.

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Romans 4:8-14
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Exactly, the old law is replaced with the new covenant of grace to the House of Israel [living as gentiles] and House of Judah [Jews] ... the elect remnant of Israel is GIVEN the faith required to live as saints

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This is where you mix things up brother; the covenant PROMISED to Abraham had NOTHING to do with the old law. Abraham was a Hebrew NOT an Israelite and the covenant handed down under the law came by Moses after the order of the Leviticus priesthood.
Galatians 3:17
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

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This brings up the point I have made twice now that you have not made an answer to.

By what you are saying you make the faith of the gentiles null and void in hope of Christ in this life.

You look past the faith of the Gentile and only account natural Israel to be of the election.

I have answered several times, FAITH is ONLY GIVEN , many claim to have faith, but it is faith in words of sinners , but the remnant of Israel are GIVEN faith in baptism of the spirit... the differenec is that ONLY the elect FEW CAN live in PERFECT LOVE , whereas the many are sinners to death...

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Which like I said by your belief you make faith is Jesus Christ null and void for the Gentile.Thus placing the yoke of bondage on them that Israel of old could not bear.

SEE what it means, sinners DISOBEY Jesus' command to Love, so sinners CANNOT have Jesus as Lord , they cannot obey him, they cannot love all the time! Unlovingness , even one act of unloviongness , is sin that makes one NOT a saint ... try to see who are saints at death FEW< the elect remnant of Israel under their new covenant], and who are sinners at death [MANY , all gentiles in ths life]

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So now your saying the Gentile CANNOT obey or Love Jesus Christ in this life!
Brother you are way off target here.
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Paul plainly states They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God

Yes, and it is the true gentiles who are sinners, who are 'of the flesh '

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You should really read the rest of it brother.
Romans 9:7-8
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Paul clearly point out that the children of the flesh is speaking of Abraham children by natural birth.
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Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham

Yes, ALL the saints are children of Abraham by BLOOD , and all the saints are saints because of GIVEN faith by grace under the new covenant with ONLY the two Houses of Israel, not with anyone else!! read it ! -Heb 8;5-13]

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I have read it and you are WRONG, Ro.9:7-8 state quite plainly that those of Abraham BLOOD are NOT the children of God.
Read it again.
Romans 9:7-8
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

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And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham,

That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ

Yes the gentiles are all saved in the new earth, not now though because they die[d] as sinners , not perfected in love, so they CANNOT be translated to spirit, they can only get to the kingdom in the new earth through death !

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Hogwash, the heathen is justified through faith under the NEW covenant which was established in Christ.
Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 10:12
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Galatians 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Colossians 3:10-11
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
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Now back to the circumcision in Christ.

Galatians 5:6
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

How can you say these firstfruits are not genetic Israel when they are listed by TRIBE and referred to as children [descendants] of the two divided Houses of ancient Israel ????

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How many times do I have to point out to you that when one is grafted in one become a part of that which one is grafted into?







Quote:
Originally Posted by Pneuma3
And what do the scriptures tell us of those who are in Christ.

Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 10:12
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Galatians 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Colossians 3:10-11
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

My friend , the House of Israel are a NON-JEWISH lost nation, a people who lost their name, they bacame Greeks, Barbarians, Scythins, whatever, amongst ALL nations, they ceased to the the House of Israel, ceased to be Israelites EXCEPT to God...

Thus that is where Jesus sends his disciples to reach them , AMONGST the gentile nations [because they know that NONE are Jews] :-

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Brother by what you believe you make Paul’s ministry of grace unto the Gentile nations a Joke.

If the lost sheep of Israel and the Gentiles was the same thing God would not have separated Paul from the rest of the apostles for the ministry of the Gentiles because he had already sent the other apostles to the lost sheep of Israel.

Matthew 10:5-6
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Galatians 1:15-16
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: (think about that one)

Now as I have already pointed out that the gentile is grafted in and become members of Christ’s body by faith let’s see if faith was given to the Gentiles in the old testament and see if they to by faith where grafted into Israel.

I already pointed out Melchizedek a couple of times who was a king and priest with God NOT of natural Israel so lets see if we can find other Gentiles who by faith and love were grafted into Israel.

Hebrews 11:31
31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

Now what do we know of Rahab also called Rachab in scripture?

She was a harlot of Jericho who by faith perished not.

She married Salmon Mt.1:5

She was the mother of Boaz of whom the line of kings was born.

So we see one here who was NOT of Israel, yet by faith she became the great great grandmother of David.

Now who else in this line of kings was grafted into Israel?

Well I can’t mention Boaz without looking at Ruth who was NOT of Israel.

What do we know of Ruth?

We know she was a Moabite.

Ruth has some very revealing words to say to us.

Ruth 1:16
16 And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:

Obviously here we see Ruth was NOT of natural Israel.

So what happened to Ruth?

She married Boaz.

Who was Boaz?

The kinsman redeemer.

Who is it that Boaz foreshadows?

Jesus Christ our kinsman redeemer.

We also know that Ruth was the great grandmother of David.

So we can see BOTH Rahab and Ruth, BOTH Gentiles were BOTH grafted into Israel and became mothers to the line of kings.

Before I finish speaking of Ruth there is one last thing I would point out to you brother.
Naomi had TWO near kinsman that could have redeemed Ruth.
These kinsman are shadows of the TWO covenants, the old covenant given to natural Israel and the new covenant founded in Christ.

The old covenant could not redeem Ruth lest it mar their own inheritance.

The new covenant in Christ made it possible for Ruth to be redeemed.

Read what the first kinsman said concerning Ruth, how he refused to redeem her, how he was scared to mar his own inheritance. Brother this is exactly what I see you saying in your posts.

Ruth 4:6
6 And the kinsman said, I cannot redeem it for myself, lest I mar mine own inheritance: redeem thou my right to thyself; for I cannot redeem it.

Now read what the second kinsman says and see the love shown forth in his words.

Ruth 4:4
4 And I thought to advertise thee, saying, Buy it before the inhabitants, and before the elders of my people. If thou wilt redeem it, redeem it: but if thou wilt not redeem it, then tell me, that I may know: for there is none to redeem it beside thee; and I am after thee. And he said, I will redeem it.

What the old covenant could not do lest it mar their inheritance the new covenant does knowing that in Christ there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

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Originally Posted by Pneuma3
The Gentiles here are not of the house of Israel, for Paul was separated to preach the gospel unto the Gentiles.

Your 'logic' is flawed brother, Paul indeed was sent to the gentiles [whereas the other apostles were sent to the House of israel amongst the gentiles] , BUT Paul teaching amongst the gentiles came across some of the House of Israel [and some Jews too ,for that matter] who were not the primary role of his teaching the gentiles, so Paul also found some of the saints [and indeed describes them as saints , so we know that they are of tribal Israel,descendants from one or other House ]

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That’s only your take brother, Paul was sent to preach the gospel unto the heathen nations.
Galatians 2:9
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Galatians 3:8
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
And they are called saints because they are in Christ, NOT because they are genetically linked to Israel. You accuse me of trying to make scriptures fit what I want them to say, but I see you doing this here.
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Now maybe it is that you believe Paul was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and that all the Gentiles that Paul converted to faith were but these lost sheep.

No I do not believe that ,a nd really you know that scripture does not say that [s you are making strawmen, things I never said, just to knowck them down... meaningless brother]

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No strawman here brother, I asked because Paul was sent to the Gentiles to preach the gospel and every time a Gentile that Paul preached to believes by faith and is grafted in you say that Gentile is of the lost sheep of Israel. And that to me looks very much like you trying to fit your doctrine with scripture instead of letting scripture define your doctrine.

We KNOW form other scriptures that ALL the saints whom Paul found whilst teaching the gentiles , all are of tribal israel because Jesus SAYS SO - Rev 7:3-8

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And time and again I have to point out to you that when one is grafted in one becomes a part of that which one is grafted into.

The gentiles en masse are saved too, but afterward -Rev 7:9-10 , there is good reason for that too, the remnant of Israel ahve to be FIRST because God requires them as His holy nation of priests and kings to rule and minister to the masses of the gentiles in His kingdom come in the new earth ... it is a very sensible paln to get the priests and kings perfected first so that they cannot eb tempted by satan any more [and so are free from any threat of a second death]

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We agree mostly here except concerning who the elect are.
We both agree the elect are those of faith, but faith is NOT reserved for just natural Israel.









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Originally Posted by Pneuma3
]The old covenant was established under the priesthood which sprang from Abraham and was changed in Jesus Christ. The old priesthood has been done away and the Melchizedek priesthood took its place.

Again you make sloppy errors brother, the new covenant made the previous one largely redundant , but it has not been "done away with" completely because there are prophesies of its final acts in the future ..

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Agree in part here, the old covenant is done away with for those abiding in Christ, the problem is we do not always abide in Christ and therefore fall back under the ministration of death.
But my above quote was not speaking concerning us but concerning Jesus Christ and the old covenant has been done away with in Him.

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men could still eb saved by the old covenant IF they could keep it [as indeed Jesus did, so any of the sants could] BUT the new covenant is UNCONDITIONAL upon the House of Judah [Jews] and the House of Israel [now gentiles] , so clearly that is rather EASIER on them than the old covenant which they mostly could not keep ... Heb 8:3-13

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Well we disagree here again brother. Mans is still saved by way of the law for it is the ministration of death and our schoolmaster that leads to Christ. Thus it is through the ministration of death, for we are not saved from death by out of it or through it, that one comes to Christ and is saved.
Colossians 1:21-22
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Hebrews 2:14
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Psalm 19:7
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

If you read about 'Melchisedec' in the NT you will find that he is IMMORTAL , is never born and never dies , the new covenant high priest met live with Abraham!! Immortality implies TIMELESSNESS ... this priests is FOREVER in the past and the future and beyond time [and space]

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

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I agree

Thus teh enw covenant is merely the EXTENSION of the Melchizedek priesthood by 144,000 who have perfected their love in this life and so are ready for translation to IMMORTAL spirit to serve as perfect priests and kings in the new earth whilst the MANY gentiles also perfect their love there

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I agree


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And I will point out to you again Melchizedek was a king and priest of God and he was NOT of the seed of natural ISRAEL. was a king and priest of God and he was NOT of the seed of natural ISRAEL.

LOLOL? ... Jesus pointed out the same thing that flummoxed the Jewish scribes, why follow their mistake when it is written out and explained in scripture ??? ... how could God's immortal spirit priest be born to a descendant of Jacob except as Jesus Christ !!!!

Jesus WAS born in the TRIBE of Judah . so he is indeed of israel, and yet he was there in the beginning with God as the Word [Logos] - John 1:1- :-



John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

John 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

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Here’s were we disagree, Melchizedek is NOT Jesus (he was but a foreshadow of Jesus), for the scriptures state speaking of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 7:6
6 But he whose descent (genealogy) is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

Now I realize them here could very well be in reference to just Levi, but these other two scripture point to ANOTHER that would arise after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 7:11
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:15
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

Now you used this scripture to point out that Melchisedec was Jesus.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

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But there are at least two more instances where this scripture could also be applied.

When the gospel (new covenant) was preached unto Abraham and where Abraham offered up Isaac and received him in like figure back from the dead.

Also even if it Melchisedec is Jesus here the Melchisedec priesthood was before the covenant with Israel.

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Originally Posted by Pneuma3
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:


Brother by your belief that the gentile cannot be saved in this life by faith you are building up again that which Jesus Christ tore down, placing a yoke upon them that Israel of old could not bare, you are troubling the Gentile that turns to God.

That is false witness brother... sadly I have heard it before , as many of the words which youclaim are your own, but which duplicate the words of many sinners on the web posting as false prophets... do not follow them brother if you want god's truth. follow the scripture alone , not sinners words that seem not to contradict a few scriptures but contradict much of scripture which most sinners do not comprehend ....

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I don’t see where I bore false witness brother, for are you not claiming that the Gentile cannot be saved in this life?

And the scriptures state that the Gentile in the flesh are made apart of the commonwealth of Israel.

Ephesians 2:11-16
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:




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But as we have seen there has been a CHANGE in the priesthood, a CHANGE in the covenant, a CHANGE in the tabernacle. Brother all these things have been CHANGED from the natural house of Israel to the household of FAITH.

Yes they have all CHANGED , but the recipients of grace are exactly whom God has said, the remnant of the House of Israel and the remnanat of the House of Judah , no-one else NEEDS grace because most are freed of sin by teir death for sin...

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Not so all men are saved out or through death not from death.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
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We are now called to the household of faith which is the household of God. Gal.6:10 & Eph.2:19.

Hebrews 3:5-6
5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

You really need to be FAR MORE CAREFUL about whom 'we' refers to... you are making error after error by ignoring that the scripture SAYS to whom it applies and thsu to whom it does NOT apply...

Jesus' House is ONLY the frstfruit saints in this world, to be extended to the MANY of all nations ONLY in the new earth... not now!!

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And I would say you need to be careful excluding the Gentile from grace.


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Kind of like what you are doing above brother, making the scriptures speak of division between Israel and Gentile, making the faith of the Gentile null and void by the doctrines of men, disallowing the faith of the Gentile to be grafted into the household of faith.

It is Jesus who came to BRING this division in THIS world, not me :-

Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Jesus even splits up families [dividing RELATED people , all of the House of Israel] to take out the ones to whom the promise of grace applies and leave behind those of Israel wh are not Israel of the promise...

...52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Thus we again see that being descended from jacob does not assure on of sainthood i THIS world, even though one is assured in the next [unlike the true gentiles, who may die a second death for sin in the new earth]

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall comeout of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

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None of what you just posted says anything about God causing division between natural Israel and the Gentile. The old covenant caused division between natural Israel and the Gentile the new covenant tore down that wall of division.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

---So you see, God si right, he does not need to offer forgiveness to any more than Israel [and indeed not all of even israel escape death, even many of the saints have died and will die ... very few indeed find life without ever seeing death (as Enoch and the friends of God]

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That is NOT speaking of a mortal death brother but is in reference to the law which is a ministration of death. And he who is dead to the law is alive unto God.

Romans 7:4-6
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Galatians 2:19
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.




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Originally Posted by Pneuma3
Paul was sent to be the apostle of the Gentile, did God err in sending Paul to convert the Gentile by Faith?

God did not send Paul to convert all the gentiles but rather to teach the gentiles why they would be saved after God got his sevants ready first to be able to SERVE the gentiles in the new earth kingdom

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Well Paul must have screwed up badly then as he converted many heathen to the gospel of grace.

BUT Paul DID find some ofthe saints of the House of Israel amongst the gentiles [inevitably so] ,but that was a side-line in what he was doing as apostle to the gentiles... whereas the other apostles were sent rather to the House fo Israel than to the gentiles , with paul it was the other way around :-

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This only proves you add your own thoughts to the scriptures in order for them to line up with your own ideas.

Matthew 10:5 ¶ These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

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Right God told the rest of apostles NOT to go into the way of the Gentiles yet separated Paul to preach Him (Jesus) unto the heathen.

Galatians 1:15-16
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: (think about that one)

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Thus you made a BIG error thinking that it is Paul [or anyone] who gives FAITh, God alone gives faith to whom he has said that He will give it and WHEN He will give it, not before...

One is simply fooling oneself if one thinks one has faith enough to be redeemed to spirit without knowing all truth of God [John 16:13]

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Well if I actually said Paul or anyone else gives faith I agree that would be a BIG error, but I never said any such thing.


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Was Paul sent to say nah nah nah you Gentiles have no hope in Jesus Christ in this life, you all are going to die in your sins?
Does this not make Paul’s ministry of Faith in Jesus Christ a joke?

Nay brother, you ahve simply misunderstood what paul's ministry was because of the modern day apostasy corrupting the modern siners into proselyting countless more sinners with deceitful promises of salvation in exchange for a small sum of money every Sunday. [my joke, I hope it does not offend, it is just a joke to match your one]

Paul did not try to convert anyone, nor could he do so, but he did find some of the few saints of Israel and God gave them faith ... bUT Paul's main goal given him by God was to teach the non-Israelite gentiles the truth about WHy they could not be FIRST , why they were MADE for death in destruction of this earth ,whereas Israel's remnant few were MADE for glory over death in translation to spirit at Jesus' return :-

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Again you are only trying to make scripture say what you want it to say. All’s you have is conjecture I have the sure word of scripture.

Galatians 1:15-16
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: (think about that one)

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Acts 13:46-47
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Acts 28:28
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Romans 11:11-14
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

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I agree, so why do you say God cannot make of the clay in His hands concerning the Gentiles a vessel unto honour?

Seems to me you deny the potter power over His own clay.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

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That right so why do you believe it is of themselves (genetics)?


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Originally Posted by Pneuma3
And yet you say no GRACE is given to the Gentile!

Those who DIE do NOT need unmerited forgiveness
so God does not offer it to them , why should He, they do not NEED it ! They are freed from sin by death, they do not thus need grace

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A mortal death does NOT free man from sin, man is set free from the law which ministers death. It is this death (law) that man is freed from. But as long as you look at being freed from sin as a mortal death you will not understand this. Are you sure your not the one listening to sinners brother?

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=Pneuma3I have been reading the scriptures you use brother

Then it simply shows how mindset is so shaped by the mistake of reading what sinners interpret the scripture to mean instead of reading only what is written by inspiration of God to the saints and prophets...

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And I could say the same thing about you. What do comments like that prove brother? NOTHING, yet you use them in every post.

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and have countered them with scriptures.

This is not a contest brother else it is useless ... surely we are both seeking what God says, not to prop up falsely what we have come to see as yet]

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Never have I used scripture as any kind of contest brother, you have posted scripture and I have posted scripture that states contrary to your belief.
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I have NOT ignored the ones you provided but you have ignored most of the ones I have.

I have spent a great deal of time, as you have , pointing out the scriptures which show that the interpretation you borrowed from sinners is false by the scripture, i ahve attempted insofar as my tiemallows to answer all your points, please feel free to briefly make them again ifI have missed something crucial, it was not intentional, but things can get lost in the sheer bulk of your output , sorry, but i do not have more time than I have spent to offer you ... I think we might even progress more quickly bydiscussing ONE point at a time instead of dozens... surely then things would not get left behind either..

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As I have spent a great deal of time showing you by scripture that you’re understanding is false.
So where do we go from here? What ONE point would you like to start with?

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And you speak as if I am blind and you are a saint with his eyes open to the truth.

I do not know why God has turned every belief rthat i ever held on its head and yet not revealed all truth to me as tothe few saints, I cannot understand why He gives a little, but not all truth ,to some who are not saints ... Do you kow why?

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Well if you know that you do not hold all truth why are you so sure that you are right concerning the Gentiles? You accuse me of listening to sinners and not taking God whole word into account even though I have repeatedly told you I NEVER take mans word for anything, I take everything to God and search His whole word for myself.

What I do know by revelaton from God that overturned my previous vain vague 'beliefs' about religion acquired from the world [i.e. from sinners] however fits all the scripture insofar as I have studied it in depth yearningly and tirelessly in the past 30 years through mediataion and prayer ... that is far from certainty, but it is a more powerful argument from cosistency than i have seen in anyone else to date [but obviously there may be many who know more than i, and the saints know it all in lie before daeth in order to become perfected in love... i am just a sinner ,but at least i know that and work at reducing my sin which of course is no answer to sin , one cannot get rid of it by oneself until God baptises one in his spirit]

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Brother the same thing happened to me almost 30 years ago also, that’s why I never now take mans word for anything and that includes you. If I don’t see things in His word myself I will not be persuaded by men as I had traveled that road already and found that I had to throw almost everything I had once believe into the garbage bin where it belongs.
It seems we have walked a similar road brother, so you should be able to understand why I will not take your word for what the scriptures state just as you will not take my word for what the scriptures state.
We would both be fools if we did so don’t you think?
Like you I only know in part and claim not all knowledge of the truth, but I also like you, I must believe what I see until God changes my mind on things. We both can quote scripture until we are blue in the face but all to no avail unless GOD takes a hand it those scriptures and expounds them unto us.

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Although I realize I see through a glass as of right now and that in part, you speak as though you see clearly.

Some things I have been taught to see clearly , but the only reason I am fairly sure of that is the consistency of them with all the scripture ... a mammoth task to check what one believes against every line, but that is what I do to the best of my ability, and it odes reprove the countless diverse views offered by religionists, proving that Jesus was right, the world at this time is full f false prophets [I am no prophet either, i only repeat what other prophets have said and so my beliefs are based on the prophets and saints AS A WHOLE , aiming to leave NOTHING out at all..

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Brother I to use all scripture to the best of the ability God has given me
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How do ...

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you know it is I that is blind and not yourself?

My friend I am blind to much of importance for our future , just as you are, we have only the scripture , prayer and meditation that we can RELY upon unti God Himself teaches us [and eventually teaches all men Himself]

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Amen

So it is a BIG mistake to read what those who are sinners have written and cobble their ideas together with a few chosen phrases of scriptre which may or may not say what you ten WANT them to say... RATHER aproach god Himself for understanding by meditating on hs word and yearning in prayer to him AS A LITTLE CHILD WHO DOES NOT KNOW, not as someone telling god what is true which he must accept ...

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And this I do brother, but you to must do this also don’t you think?

the scripture also explains why it i so, why most men are deluded strongly by God for His purpose,,,

So my only case which i present here is the matter of CONSISTENCY with ALL SCRIPTURE, and your beliefs as written by you here do FAIL that test imposed by God's saint [not me] :-

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Well we are in agreement brother, but like you I don’t see the consistency in what you state either. I agree one of us must be wrong unless there is some type of middles ground so to speak that neither of us is seeing yet.

Thus I only seek to reprove BOTH your and my current beliefs to ALL the scripture.... in the rather limited goal of getting a little closer to the truth ... do not know yet why , perhaps you can help me with why ?

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We can only go by the limited understanding we each have of the scriptures brother. But His word tells us to reason the scriptures with one another, thus I am here speaking with you and I believe that’s why you are here speaking with me, not to prove that we are each right or wrong but that by the Holy Spirit we both might come into a fuller understanding of what Gods word actually states.

Thus i hope taht we do NOT tur this into a contest of trying to prove who is right [because quite likely it seems we MUSTboth be wrong to some extent because we are still siners, unbaptised of the spirit, do not know all truth]

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I agree whole heartedly brother; if we are trying to prove each other wrong then it becomes a war and not a fellowship with one another.


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I don’t doubt Him brother, I simply see a change made in the priesthood. That from the natural to that by faith, from the old covenant to a new. Israel is now many nations by faith just as the promise to Abraham said it would be.

Israel is many nations simply because bith the Jews and the House of Israel were scattered amongst many nations and the House of Israel CEASED to be a people ,adopting the identity of whichever gentile nation they ended up in [since the House of Judah, ironically, would never accept their paganism as it itself lost sight of its old covenant with God

The bit you do not seem to yet get is that one CANNOT tell which gentile is a true gentile and who is the descendant of the House of Israel, yet you judge that you do know when reading the word gentile in scripture... it is a common error, but can you see it now ??

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Brother I understand this point perfectly, the reason I disagree with it is I do not count the natural seed as pertaining to the covenant. I see the covenant established in Jesus Christ by faith.

I HAVE read it [the new covenant- Heb 8:3-13], I just disagree with your interpretation of it.
I do however believe some of natural Israel will also be a part of the elect of God, but only by faith.

What do you disagree with about it saying that it is with the House of israela nd the House of Judah , where is there any interpretation in that, surely it is explicit enough :-

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

How can you interpret that any differently than that the new covenant is "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah" ???

what is it yoiu see as "interpretation" here, ???

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Again I understand this brother, but my point that when one is grafted in one becomes a part of that which one is grafted into.

Can you understand this concept?


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Thus making out your own pet ideas to justify genetically being bound to Christ thus setting up yourself as a king and priest of God.

Boy, you really go to town making things up, i have no indication whatever that i am one of the firstfruits and the afct that my love is not perfect, that i am still a sinner PROVES that i am not a saint, not a firstfruit of Israel... why not ask instead of making things up about folks, it is much easier to just ask if you can...

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Brother in all honesty that is the way you have been coming across to me. Since I have been on the net I have run across so many people that state things like you have been stating and some of them have actually stated follow me as I follow Christ, not those exact words mind you but that is exactly what they meant. If you want to know the truth get to know me, statement like that always bring up red flags with me, some have even been so bold as to state they where Jesus Christ. Some have used words very close to what you say about listening to sinners.
So if I offended you brother I am sorry, you could say I am a little jaded because of what some of these people put forth.
But after reading you today I understand you better and know that you are much like myself in regards to Gods word.
So again I apologize if I offended.
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Now don’t get me wrong I am not saying you will not be a priest and king with Jesus brother, but if you are to be it will NOT be because you are genetically linked to natural Israel but because you have faith.

Brother, all those who are saints are listed by Jesus in Rev 7:3-8 as being of TRIBAL Israel and ONLY the descendants of the two houses of anciently-divided Israel are promised GRACE in this earth by their NEW covenant UNCONDITIONALLY accepting them as the people of God ... the bible says what will happen to those who try to gatecrash God's 're-marriage' to His people , taking back His former 'wife' whom He rejected because they FAILED teir old covenant with Him :-

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Well this maybe one area that is the reason we are not in agreement brother. I agree natural Israel is the bride of Christ (I did mention this in an earlier post) but the bride of Christ is not the overcoming body of Christ. It is Jesus Christ from head to foot, the whole man as it were that marries the bride (natural Israel) and then both being joined together bring in the restitution of all things.

Brother you mentioned earlier in your posts today that maybe we should take ONE point and walk through the scriptures together looking at one point at a time; I think this might be a good idea brother so where do you want to start?

Let’s try to keep the post short if we can brother as these long one are just killing me, by the time I am done replying to all your points my eyes feel like a bed of coals was placed on them.

So go ahead and start where you would like and let’s see if Gods is willing we can find some of that truth that eludes us together.

Hi Stranger, my computer is down brother (using my sons today) so I don't know when I will be able to get back to you if you post more thoughts.

It was good to meet you,

God bless.

Pneuma3 said:

How many times do I have to point out to you that when one is grafted in one become a part of that which one is grafted into?

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It is not the grafting itself which is being misunderstood, strangers are indeed grafted into Israel ... but it is the OT and NT evidence of who those strangers are which is being ignored... and the reason is the belirf that there are many interpretations of scripture which can be valid. But the scripture itself says that God will do the teaching of His one truth by His own spirit, his spirit of THE truth , and [private] interpreation by men is thus NOT valid , the saints have pointed this out, but christians just ignore saints and jesus and the prophets in their 'beliefs' which they then call faith... but obviously it is not faith in God's truth, but in the words put together by sinners, diverse tales of no value whatsoever except the delusion of the many for a time [as is actually required in God's plan! [2Thess 2] :-

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Now the world is inundated [in a flood!] with these diverse conflicting private interpretations, but God certifies that ALL are false in scripture if only men could take it all in and reprove their dearly held private traditional beliefs ... this we can prove from scripture if we use it ALL as ONE integrated truth as it MUST be one integrated truth as a whole if it is all the word of God... we cannot then set bits aside just because they do not fit our current 'beliefs' or our traditions gathered from men because it is our beliefs that are subject to Satan's deceptions, not the scripture... [although translations can be shaped by Satan and we do not have the originals, but only somewhat divergent copies, showing Satan's hand in distorting God's truth even from the start of its being recorded and transmitted]

The scripture is all that we have until God reveals all truth to us , and we shall not understand it until we take in EVERY word in testing consistency of ALL our understandings by it [and as a check on distortions through poor translation and scribing errors which are known to have occurred]

The means to reprove the hundreds of thousands of diverse interpretations which simply cannot be true is through the one truth of scripture [until we are baptised to know all truth by God Himself [John 16:13] ... for God will teach all men himself eventually in spirit baptism -Joel 2:28] :-

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.[Jesus!]

1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

Men thus require to be taught from God to love one another , we cannot do this alone because we are not capable of clinging to the truth that love is the only way in the onslaught of Satan's temptations of us through our [empty ,but persuasive] desires outside love of all

we are foolish then if we both cannot wait on God to teach us and instead resort to learning from sinners instead of from the saints and prophets of God and from Jesus in scripture ... and our foolishness eads to deep woe when we are eventually confronted with the 'sword' of Jesus, the truth of God about us and what we did in our lives

Saints do NOT teach each other because they already know from God :-

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

But saints DO teach sinners SOME of the truth, that which we can bear to hear or can accept from scripture ... it cuts down the ammount of woe we must bear eventually when God faces us with all truth...

But learning the half-truths and misunderstandings of other sinners and believing in them will prove to have been very foolish in the end, as it simply opens one up to believing what Satan has sold to others as beliefs, beliefs in his false christ image, his idea of himself as the god of men [because God gave him power over most men now -Rev 13:3-8] for just the purpse of his failure as a god, his humbling and that of most men who are deceived by him to think that they know the non-scriptural image of Jesus of modern religion ... [the Jesus of scripture is the messiah of Israel, come to unite the two Houses back into one holy nation of priests and kings ready for the kingdom to come to all men in the new earth after the second resurrection... nothing like what is taught by sinners i the churches of men...

Thus the reproof of beliefs is by ALL scripture, by every word of God we have

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

... so one cannot leave out one jot or tittle just because it disagrees with pet ideas or popular ones or traditions [the saints are very few, not many, just 144,000 in all for now in the period between Jesus visits to the earth ...and their truth is not popular with men, unlike the words of sinners in our divided churches and sects of man-made stories... but the truth has caused men to kill the saints for it , not to listen to them , down the ages of Satan's given power to fool most of mankind... with God's endorsement because of His purpose in this earth , has CAUSED OUR TRADITIONS in religion, so that following the herd is now certain ,by scripture, to cause one to continue in sin :-

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

So there is the only 'methodology' that can work, reproof of belief to ALL the scripture, not changing or ignoring any scripture whatsoever to suit one's beliefs that one has assigned and committed to before one understands all scripture [as if one could do so in a lifetime by study and prayer alone without baptism of the spirit ! ]

It is foolish then to 'sign up' for thsi or that 'creed' written by sinners to bring you into the power of their church, that is simply not the way God brings men to His truth, and it is the scripture which shows the eventual way for all men, not the sinners who lead modern churches in place of God and Jesus , usurping authority of God and Jesus which Jesus never gave to any of his disciples , but chastised them for trying to choose another leader other than him just because he was to die...

So if we agree on method by reading the way God assigns us to learn, then we can begin the reproof from scripture of whatever we think we have gleaned from other scriptures and the mass of falsehoods that goes by the name of religious doctrines ....[which we know cannot be true not only because they disagree with parts of scripure, but simply because they are so diverse , so many, but there can be but one truth of God ... so how much is false, clearly almost all religion must be because it is so divided , simply because it is not one truth but supposedly is many, and thus NOT FROM GOD but from Satan !! ... one simply cannot have many truths of God all saying different conflicting things.. so back to scripture to divide the truth rightly by using it all to exclude whatever doesn't fit with all God's word , no matter how popular or comforting or traditional or coming from sinners one has trusted ...

So then who is grafted in and who is grafted back in ...

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

To Jacob were the promises made by his descent from Abraham, but not to all descendants of Abraham, only through Jacob ...

Now it is Jacob, no-one else, whom God names as Israel , but the scripture details that amongst the countless numbers of Israel, yet again only a remnant are to be saved ...

so how are all Israel saved then?

the answer is given by Jesus, no less , the 144,000 are simply the firstfruits of the spirit after Jesus himself , they are simply the few who find the narrow way because of being given all truth [John 16:13] and so perfecting their love [following Jesus in perfection of love, sinless life after ceasing to be sinners any more, just as Jesus commanded them as their Lord]

but the rest of Israel is saved too the whole of Jacob , many of whom died in sin without knowing Jesus or believing in him... but obviously they cannot be saved until after they are alive again at the second resurrection , they died as unjustified sinners, not justified saints ...

So the few are saved a thousand years before even all Israel is saved, let alone the many who are saved of all nations [Rev 7:9-10]

the many then, according to Jesus himself, are saved after the few [Rev 7:3-10] ,so it matters not from the point of view of salvation whether one is saved after the first resurrection or after the second resurrection.... the way of the many is LATER and it involves DESTRUCTION in death as the wages of sin, but all flesh will be baptised by God Himself [Joel 2:28] to know all truth[John 16:13] so as to be able to defeat Satan's wily lies and live in perfect love without sin and so be translated to spirit at (or before) judgment day , but only if one overcomes Satan in this trial of faith [faith that is given by God by imparting His whole truth in spirit baptism during life] in the new earth kingdom come to all men ...

Thus God is the potter, God decides who will be saints now and who will be saints afterward in the righteous new earth, by giving or witholding His spirit now... so the renmnant few who are saints in this earth are chosen by God to be first, but not because of themselves, simply because God will show His power in His truth to shape the will of men to overcome Satan's temptations to be unloving [sin]...

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory

Thus God has been in control all the way from beginning to end... there is no chnace involved, no element of the will of men that God cannot sway with His truth more powerfully than Satan sways men the other way... no doubt about who will be first, which God declared from the beginning , no doubt about the role of Israel declared from the beginning :-

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Note then that this revlation of the future of israel given to Moses by God , is most definitely incontravertably talking about the ancient nation of Israel, descendants of Jacob, the chldren of Israel

and the promise is that they will be a holy nation, a kingdom of priests , no matter if a few are added to Israel , these men's descendants are promised this role by God [ and it matters not that these men will disobey the old covenant, because the new coivenant is NOT with them, but with their children, their descendants ... and these men who will die sinners will nevertheless be saved after the firstfruits and still be a holy nation of priests in the kingdom of God on earth :-

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Clearly most of Israel cannot reign on the earth until after the second resurrecton ,since many died sinners, so they are not all resurrected at the same time, but they are all saved eventually :-

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Note the identification with Jacob, there is no ambiguity here about any other being meant that the ones God has called Israel, the descendants of Jacob

If in any doubt still read Rev 7:3-8, where the 144,000 saints are listed by descent from the sons of Jacob by name , as the children [genetic descendants] of the tribes of ancient Israel by explicit names

Alos note that the two divisions of ancient Israel, the two Houses of kings, the House of Judah and the House fo Israel are the ONLY ones to receive grace in the new cvenant, and it states that teh FATHERS of the ones who recieve the new covenant are the ones who broke the old covenant, showing yet again that tehse are truly the genetic descendants of Jacob who receive a new covenant of unconditional forgiveness and are taken as God's holy peopel by act of God [not of themselves] , grace from God and not by favour, simply because God will show that his truth can drive the will of even rebellious Iasrael by declaring WHO will be His saints first, FROM THE BEGINNING ,as stated to Moses

Thus pretending Israel is not Israel is to deny the powr of God and oppose His scriptural statement about showing His power by taking Israel by means of His spirit of truth...

So how is it that some of the 144,000 are gentiles and only some are Jews? ... again the scripture explains in great detail, but it is nothing like the tales of traditional religon of the masses...

The fisrt thing perhaps to note is why Jesus said he came :-

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Why is the House of Israel lost and who are they? Why is Jesus sent only to them when he came to save all sinners?

The answers are there, but not if one does not look for them in all the words of God...

The House of Israel is the larger of the two nations into which Israel split, two separate HOUSES of kings over two separate nations ... and the messiah is the one prophesied by God's own prophets to come and re-unite the two houses under one king, Jesus the messiah of Israel [called 'christ' from the Greek and 'messiah' from the Hebrew , it means the annointed king of Israel , the one who is prophesied by God to unite Israel into a holy nation and use them as His servants, as the kings and priests who minister to the many in His kingdom when it comes to the many ... but first , in this world, it dwells only in the hearts of Jesus and the few saints who accept his rule and so obey and cease to sin, perfecting love as he did...

Now the other kingdom in Israel is the House of Judah [still separated today and known as the 'Jews'] and they have held their identity as descendants of Jacob , down the years, because of Judaism , despite its apostasy from the truth by tradition of men [just as in christianity] ... but the House of Irsael worshipped pagan gods and so lost its identity when it lost its lands and was later scattered amongst all pagan nations after release from captivity ... a separate scattering from that which the Jews also suffered for going against God ...

Thus the House of Israel simply disappeared , a whole nation disappeared in name , and they became known by whatever gentile nation they settled with, worshipping the local pagan gods , unlike the Jews [who kept their identity and their religion]

So the House of Israel was lost in name, and Jsus was sent by God with the task of gathering a remnant few of thenm from amongst the gentiles ... by that time the children of the House of Israel even regarded themselves as gentles, not as israel at all, but they are stil true descendants of Jacob and heirs to the promise

A simple proof from the world of this scripture, Ephraim dominated the House of Israel, but today there are no Jews descended from Ephraim whatsoever :-

Isaiah 7:8 ...; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

But God has not forgotten His promise, nor that \he has said that He will show His power by making all Israel His holy nation of priests and kings , so He is simply sifting the House of Israel through the nations until the time for re-uniting them with the House of Judah under Jesus , one king over both nations :-

Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

The House of Israel then lost its name, but not its role, it is a peculiar nation which is not a people, yet is the holy nation of God when re-united with the Jews :-

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Thus the House of Israel are forgiven now under THEIR new covanant with God , note that the new covenant of grace is explicitly ONLY with the House of Israel and the House of Judah and is mentioned in the OT [Jer 31:13-34]as well as the NT [Heb 8:8-13] ... it is very explicit that it is with only those whose fathers broke the old covenant, there is no doubt then about their being genetically descended from Jacob... only ancient Israel broke the old covenant, so the new covenant is only with their descendants, God says so, so believe Him, not what sinners teach, or be wrong in belief...

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers ...

do you see, if the old covenant is with THEIR fathers, then then the new covenant is with the descendants of Jacob, the literal children of Israel, as scripture states many times unambiguously and not subject to any private interpretation...

and some are [or at least seem to be] gentiles because they are the lost sheep of the lost House of Israel, living as gentiles for millenia now ...

that is not to say that the gentiles aren't saved too, they are, but AFTERWARD , not at Jesus return when teh 144,000 are taken , gotten ready to serve as priests and kings FIRST ...

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Jeremiah 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

Jeremiah 29:14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

That then is why Jesus was sent first to the House fo Israel amaongst the nations and instructed his disciples to go rather to the House of Israel since teaching the gentiles the truth was mainly left to Paul ... but the truth Paul taught is that all Israel will be saved and that the House of Israel will be grafted back in despite their paganism and living as gentiles , not because of them, but because God WILL show that He can predict what will happen, He will make Israel His holy nation simply to show all emn and Satan that the power of His truth about love is GREATER than the power of ANY other belief...