Sickness, Faith, and Healing

Barbara, I sense a positive attitude from you, thanks for your last few posts, the were more fair than I was expecting. You are right, we will have to spend eternity together, might as well get along in the mean time. There is something weird about that feeling you get when you feel non-truth is being told. I am sure we are all coming from different areas in a similar fashion.

"Right, eating too much ice cream and getting a stomach ache does not mean I am outside of God's will for my health."

So gluttony - and ending up sick -- is living in the will of God?

Running away from questions?

*LOL* why not, since those who ask the questions are constantly deaf to the truth, sarcastic, twist my words, get emotional abt personal experiences and cant think straight after that. Its a waste of time talking to folks like that.

4 kinds of healing are available to us:

1.  We are created beings with a body that has wonderful natural defense mechanisms.  When we get a cut, over time, our bodies will heal.  When we get an infection, or virus, given time, the body will naturally heal itself.

2.  Remedial healing; where we take medicines, go to see doctors, surgery.  This is still healing and should not be neglected if we continue to be sick.

3. Blessings as a Christian.  There is a spiritual covering over our lives as children of God.  Isaiah 58:8, James 5:15.  Have you ever had a feeling not to eat something, even though it looks fine?  Please don't get be wrong, I'm not trying to be spooky, but we have a spiritual covering over our lives that protects us.

4.  Miraculous healing.  This is the most exciting form of healing where the body is made whole instantaneously.  Sight restored, overnight/immediate recovery etc.

We have been redeemed from the curse of sin.  Jesus has done this for us so we no longer have to accept the curses of sin, and at the same time accept the blessings of being a child of God.  Look in Deuteronomy chaper 28 which outlines this.  Sickness and disease have come into the world as a result of the curse of sin.  Has not Jesus released us of this curse? 

Problems with our marriage, relationships, employment, sickness, disease and poverty no longer have a place in our lives.  Know that there are blessings available and that we as Christians are entitled to receive them.  Before we were saved, we had no choice over this.

God is not going to curse us when He went to so much trouble of dying to redeem us from the curse.  We are free from our curses.  We are heirs to the blessings through our faith in Christ Jesus.

Now you may point out.. what about this person?  Or what about that person?  Are you going to base your faith on what happens to others?  Do you base your salvation on whether people get saved or not?  Or by the Word of God?  Likewise, are you basing your healing on who gets healed or not, or on what it says in the Word?

We pray in faith that healing will come to us and our loved ones.  And continue to pray, trusting in God that we will be healed.  Again, I say, if you asked 'why' are some healed faster than others, or why do some people die, or why do some people who live sinful lives grow old and die naturally.  I would answer "I don't know!"  That's something that you will never be able to find out until you're with Him in heaven.

I do know that as a Christian, I am a child of God and that He would never 'want' me to be sick or cursed.  That my life is in His hands and everything that goes on in this world is according to His will and purpose.

why do women still have birth pains

Originally posted by Andrew
"Right, eating too much ice cream and getting a stomach ache does not mean I am outside of God's will for my health."

So gluttony - and ending up sick -- is living in the will of God?

Running away from questions?

*LOL* why not, since those who ask the questions are constantly deaf to the truth, sarcastic, twist my words, get emotional abt personal experiences and cant think straight after that. Its a waste of time talking to folks like that.

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Ok, so I had a second serving of ice cream after eating nearly nothing all day, thats not gluttony. It was not excess because I didn't have my fill . My body just happens to be sentive to that kind of food sometimes.

And on the occasion that I eat ice cream and my body doesn't like it (for whatever reason) and I get sick, its nothing more than eating ice cream too fast or having it at the wrong time. That's all there is to it. I am not outside the will of God because I had some mint chocolate chip.

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
Barbara, I sense a positive attitude from you, thanks for your last few posts, the were more fair than I was expecting. You are right, we will have to spend eternity together, might as well get along in the mean time. There is something weird about that feeling you get when you feel non-truth is being told. I am sure we are all coming from different areas in a similar fashion.

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Dave,

Thank you for your kind words.  I know that feeling your talking about.  I've felt it many times.  

I also know that I cannot trust my feelings.  I must trust what I see God saying in His Word.  Even when my feelings don't follow with it. 

It's like God's Word says we have to love those who treat us wrongly, but what I want to do is pull them through the computer and slap em' till they see straight. 

None of us yet knows everything about God that there is to know.  Some of us know alot about bible prophesy but know nothing about Bible history.  Some of us know alot about healing but know nothing about witnessing.  Some of us know alot about all the above but have no love for their fellow brothers and sisters.  We can all learn some bit of truth from each other.  

God is teaching each of us different things at different times.  God has already taught me alot on healing but the current subject we're working on is integrity. I'm sure you understand what I mean.   

We don't have to accept everything we hear from other people.  Be we do have to accept everything God says.  God expects us to check it out with His Word.   

We can't go only by our feelings, we can't go only by our experiences, and we can't go only by our circumstances and our understanding of those circumstances.  

We can't look at just one scripture and say "well, since that scripture fits my circumstance then I'll believe it.  And, since that one seems to say something different I'll just ignore it. 

I have tried to convey a balanced view of healing and prosperity.  In sharing my testimony, I told of how God taught it to me.  He may teach it differently to someone else.  But that's how He taught it to me. 

I believe that God's Word promises that He will meet all of our needs.  And then someone responds by saying "so you think you can just ask God for a porsche and poof there's one in your driveway". I did'nt say anything about a porsche. 

There was a song years ago sung by Doris Day called (I don't know the correct spelling) "cay serra' serra" or "Whatever will be will be"  and that seems to be the mentality of alot of Christians today, but that just is not a true statement.  

We may not always have a say in what comes into our lives but we do have a say in what stays in our life.  And ex pastor use to say, "you can't stop the birds from flying over your head but you can stop them from building a nest in your hair."  

One of the ten commandments says "honor your father and mother that your days may be long."  That means that we have a promise of long life if we honor our parents.  Is that promise a lie because someone you know, who honored their parents (as far as you know) died at a young age? 

What about Prov 3:1 "My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: for length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee".  Is that not true because someone you know kept God's commandments (as far as you know) and they died young?

What about all of Ps 91.   Is that scripture not true because evil does come to your house? Or because you do have fear?  Or because you die at a young age?  

One major thing I have learned in my 40 + years of walking with God is that all scripture works together.  We cannot receive one word from God as true and not receive the other.  If God's word says something is supposed to be and my life does not reflect that then it's not God's word that's the problem.  It's me. 

I have to go to God on my own and ask God why that scripture does not seem to be true in my life.  According to verse 1 of Ps 91 it would be because your not dwelling in that secret place of the Most High.  I did not say it. Through David, God did.  

I believe I've given plenty of scriptures backing up what I believe. I may be wrong but I don't believe so.  If I am, it does not matter.  God is still God and I erred on the side of trusting too much.  Although I don't believe it's possible to trust God too much.   

Just because we don't like what we hear does not mean it's a non-truth.  Sometimes it's the Spirit but most of the time, it's our flesh rearing up in rebellion. 

Prov 18:13 says "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is a folly and shame unto him.

You must seek it out.  You must ask questions.  You must listen.  And then ask more questions.  If it still does not settle then set it aside for a later date.  God may be prepping you.

According to some of the answers I get back it is clear that the person has not listened all the way through.  They listened part of the way but not all the way.

For the times that I've lashed out in frustration, I ask forgiveness. We must treat each other better than that. 

In His Grip,

Barbara

Originally posted by Droobie
4 kinds of healing are available to us:

1.  We are created beings with a body that has wonderful natural defense mechanisms.  When we get a cut, over time, our bodies will heal.  When we get an infection, or virus, given time, the body will naturally heal itself.

2.  Remedial healing; where we take medicines, go to see doctors, surgery.  This is still healing and should not be neglected if we continue to be sick.

3. Blessings as a Christian.  There is a spiritual covering over our lives as children of God.  Isaiah 58:8, James 5:15.  Have you ever had a feeling not to eat something, even though it looks fine?  Please don't get be wrong, I'm not trying to be spooky, but we have a spiritual covering over our lives that protects us.

4.  Miraculous healing.  This is the most exciting form of healing where the body is made whole instantaneously.  Sight restored, overnight/immediate recovery etc.

We have been redeemed from the curse of sin.  Jesus has done this for us so we no longer have to accept the curses of sin, and at the same time accept the blessings of being a child of God.  Look in Deuteronomy chaper 28 which outlines this.  Sickness and disease have come into the world as a result of the curse of sin.  Has not Jesus released us of this curse? 

Problems with our marriage, relationships, employment, sickness, disease and poverty no longer have a place in our lives.  Know that there are blessings available and that we as Christians are entitled to receive them.  Before we were saved, we had no choice over this.

God is not going to curse us when He went to so much trouble of dying to redeem us from the curse.  We are free from our curses.  We are heirs to the blessings through our faith in Christ Jesus.

Now you may point out.. what about this person?  Or what about that person?  Are you going to base your faith on what happens to others?  Do you base your salvation on whether people get saved or not?  Or by the Word of God?  Likewise, are you basing your healing on who gets healed or not, or on what it says in the Word?

We pray in faith that healing will come to us and our loved ones.  And continue to pray, trusting in God that we will be healed.  Again, I say, if you asked 'why' are some healed faster than others, or why do some people die, or why do some people who live sinful lives grow old and die naturally.  I would answer "I don't know!"  That's something that you will never be able to find out until you're with Him in heaven.

I do know that as a Christian, I am a child of God and that He would never 'want' me to be sick or cursed.  That my life is in His hands and everything that goes on in this world is according to His will and purpose.

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Very well said Droobie.  Thank you. 

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
why do women still have birth pains

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Good question Dave. It seems that if bad health was a part of the fall, and we are forgiven by Christ, that bad health would no longer be an issue. But here is the problem. If that were true, what about in Genesis 3 where women are given birth pains as part of the fall? Wouldn't this also mean that christian women should have pain free births? I see an inconsistancy here. Every christian woman, whether she prays for a pain free birth or not, experiences pain. Explain how this works. How could God let such a thing happen? Maybe because he does not will all people in all places under all circumstances, to be healthy all the time.

It was a great question Dave!

"We have been redeemed from the curse of sin. "

Droobie...This is something quiet different. The curse of sin is seperation from God. Sickness is not a curse of sin. It was something God put here as a result of our actions in the garden. Very very different thing. This is why I constanly refer to John 9 where Christ himself shows that being sick is not something assosiated with sin at all, its a result of being in a fallen world. Thus that is why the claim healing thing doesn't always work and is not biblical. i would also like to know why snakes aren't walking around on legs if we "claim it".

"Originally posted by DaveKerwin
why do women still have birth pains "

The promises of God dont fall automatically on the Christian. It's like asking: "Why are there still unsaved people? when Christ already died to save the world", "Why are there Christians not living the abundant life? when Jesus said he'd give us abundant life", "Why are there Christians who have less than basic needs of life? when he's El Shaddai", "Why are some Christians better witnesses than others? when Jesus gave the great commission to all Christians"

"Sickness is not a curse of sin."

Disobedience = Sin
Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:...............

Result of this sinning is cursings of sickness among many other things
22* The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.
27* The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed.
28* The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart:
60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.
61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

notice Verse 61 says EVERY sickness. Verse 61 is a curse of EVERY sickness. So how in the world can sickness ever be a blessing from God?

Originally posted by Andrew
"Originally posted by DaveKerwin
why do women still have birth pains "

The promises of God dont fall automatically on the Christian. It's like asking: "Why are there still unsaved people? when Christ already died to save the world", "Why are there Christians not living the abundant life? when Jesus said he'd give us abundant life", "Why are there Christians who have less than basic needs of life? when he's El Shaddai", "Why are some Christians better witnesses than others? when Jesus gave the great commission to all Christians"

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Andrew, this does not explain why women still have birth pains. Your answer would be fine if some women had birth pains, and other women did not. Because there are some saved, some not. There are some good witnesses, some not. But all women have birth pains. This makes your reply not valid. Please be VERY direct in your next answer.

Hang on... what has birthing pains have to do with sickness & healing? You hit your thumb with a hammer; you feel pain. You go into labour and try to pass a small baby through your groin area; you feel pain. Let's stick more to the topic of sickness, faith & healing. Sin & pain would be another topic I believe.

We are not sick as punishments for our sin. At the same time we should never accept that when we are sick, that's just the way it is, and there's nothing we can do about it. That God would not care whether we are sick or not. We pray for healing with an expectancy that it will come. We pray for blessings in our lives, over our relationships, our employment, our lives in general with an expectancy of the goodness of God.

When we claim healing we are merely agreeing to what is written in the Word that we shall be blessed. Jesus came and among his many miracles was those of healing. He also directed us to go forth, lay hands and heal. But this doesn't mean that the miraculous form of healing will always come. Pray for healing. Take medicine. See doctors. But never stop praying or loose faith that God wants us to be healed. Just as we pray for our friends or family for their salvation. It may not be instantaneous that they make a descision. It may take years, but we pray with an expectation that they will come to know Christ.

Originally posted by Droobie
Hang on... what has birthing pains have to do with sickness & healing? You hit your thumb with a hammer; you feel pain. You go into labour and try to pass a small baby through your groin area; you feel pain. Let's stick more to the topic of sickness, faith & healing. Sin & pain would be another topic I believe.

We are not sick as punishments for our sin. At the same time we should never accept that when we are sick, that's just the way it is, and there's nothing we can do about it. That God would not care whether we are sick or not. We pray for healing with an expectancy that it will come. We pray for blessings in our lives, over our relationships, our employment, our lives in general with an expectancy of the goodness of God.

When we claim healing we are merely agreeing to what is written in the Word that we shall be blessed. Jesus came and among his many miracles was those of healing. He also directed us to go forth, lay hands and heal. But this doesn't mean that the miraculous form of healing will always come. Pray for healing. Take medicine. See doctors. But never stop praying or loose faith that God wants us to be healed. Just as we pray for our friends or family for their salvation. It may not be instantaneous that they make a descision. It may take years, but we pray with an expectation that they will come to know Christ.

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The argument stated is that because we are saved, we no longer are under the law of sin, so our bodies are not sticken with bad health. But part of the law of sin is that women have birthing pains. IF the curse of bad health was taken away upon salvation, they why was birthing pains not taken away also? That was the point of the question. If Andrew can claim that we should no longer have bad health because the law of sin no longer reigns in our body, then I should also be able to claim in the same manor that christian women should not feel pain while giving birth, for the same justification that Andrew gave. But christian women do feel birth pains, so there is a problem here. My point is to show the inconsistancy of his claim, which I believe to be on topic. Because if his claims are inconsistant, then they have everything to do with this topic.

I believe that when we are sick, we can ask God to heal us. I also believe that in some situations he will heal, and others he will not. I do not believe that in ALL situations God will heal us. If I ask for healing, and I do not get it, then I trust that God did not provide it for a specific purpose. I think of Paul's thorn (regardless of what it was) remembering that God gave him some form of affliction for a specific purpose, so he can do the same with me. I understand that we can ask for things in the name of Christ and it will be given to us, but not the things that are outside of his will. I believe it is possible for God to will us SOME kind of unhealth, for SOME period of time, for HIS divine purpose. I see a problem with biblical interpretation of people who do not agree with this last statement.

Scripture does not tell us DIRECTLY to "claim" healing when we are sick. The bible directly tells us to preach the gospel to all nations. We can both agree on that. But because you are going on what you THINK the Bible says, I cannot believe what you say. I will be the first to admit that this health weath topic has made me think, a lot. It has also driven me to scripture. These are awesome things to happen! But from thinking a lot, praying alot, reading a lot, I have not come to a convincing conclusion that it is God's will for all people in all situations to have great health. I am unable to see that. I have studied the character of God, and God incarnate, and I don't see the prosperity gospel lining up with God. I can see WHY you believe what you do, but I cannot see the truth in it. You may think me blinded, but I do not think that is the case.

I hope I am making sense, please tell me if I am not. I am not necessarily against christians who teach the prosperity thing, blessings to them as long as the GOSPEL is being preached! I just worry about people being lead astray, which is happening very much today.

quote: "Andrew, this does not explain why women still have birth pains. Your answer would be fine if some women had birth pains, and other women did not. Because there are some saved, some not. There are some good witnesses, some not. But all women have birth pains. This makes your reply not valid. Please be VERY direct in your next answer."

Why dont you ask the women around you who have given birth and ask them if there are those who did not experience birth pains? Why dont you read the book Supernatural Childbirth by Jackie Mize, call her and her hubby up and ask her and the other women who testify in her book if they experienced birth pains after claiming the promises of God, besides conceiving when doctors told them it was impossible. There are women in my church who have given birth without pain, but then of course, you'd say I'm lying.

quote:"But part of the law of sin is that women have birthing pains. IF the curse of bad health was taken away upon salvation, they why was birthing pains not taken away also?"

In the first place Dave, can you see from the Word for yourself that healing is in the atonement? Can you see in the Word that every curse of the law has been removed by Jesus becoming a curse for us? See for yourself what the Word says FIRST, then look at the 'experiences' from that point of view.

take for example a simple curse of the law from Deu 28, which says you'll marry someone but the someone will end up in someone else's bed -- adultery -- that's one curse.

Now Ga 3:13 says Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, which wld logically include this one.

Now it's obvious there are Christian men and women who still suffer this curse right? ie their spouses are sleeping around.

So back to my point, these same Christians must know that 1.) Adultery is a curse not God's blessing. 2) They've been redeemed from it says Ga 3:13. So they 'claim' this promise of the Bible and confess it with faith over their situation, taking authority over the devil who has robbed them of their right to a good marriage becos of their ignorance (my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge). that in essence is what the faith movt is about.

and it does not just apply to marriage, but health, career, finances, relationships, etc.

quote:"Scripture does not tell us DIRECTLY to "claim" healing when we are sick. The bible directly tells us to preach the gospel to all nations."

And healing is part of the Gospel becos healing is in the atonement.

Mt 10:8* Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Lu 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
Lu 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Mr 16:18* They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

do you find Jesus qualifying here:"Heal some of the sick...preach to some only,

My wife read the book that Andrew refered to before our first child was born.  She was believing God for a painless child birth, but found out that there was some thing abnormal about her body that would prevent this the first time around.  She went full term with a heart shaped uterus (not fully developed), this was very unusual.  The docter said that most women with this condition either lose the baby or it is born premature.  You could tell from looking at her belly that there really was not enough room for the baby.  My wife began to believe that the baby would be healthy and come on the right date, that it would also develope to the right weight.  My wife had a quick delivery, 8 hours, and required only a local anastetic.  This is also very unusual for a first pregnancy and for one with her condition.  The baby was born 8 pounds, 9 ounces.  The water sack around the baby was unusually thick and the doctor had to break it.  It is believed that it was this way to help insure that the baby didn't come early.  If you take all of these unusual circumstances, you will see a definite miracule.  There are too many coincidences here to not see that God was at work.

My wife is now 6 months pregnant with our second child.  We fully expect a wonderful delivery without any pain this time, and even faster than before.

In Christ

SnuP

AMEN Snup!!!

Lord I'm in agreement with Snup and his wify for a painless childbirth and a healthy bouncing bundle of joy! In Jesus name, AMEN!

ps: in my church we call it "poom poom pop!" that fast, that easy *LOL*

I knew there was a goood reason to put you on my buddy list.  Much thanks, Andrew, we both appriciate your support.

I'll post what happens when it happens.

Thanks

IN Christ

SnuP

My pleasure SNup



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Why dont we discuss the fact that healing is in the redemption/atonement here.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21422

"Why dont we discuss the fact that healing is in the redemption/atonement here."

What a wonderful topic of discussion!

There is so much misunderstanding concerning this blessing of God. So many are in bondage and need freedom not only from the sickness that plagues the body, but also from the guilt and sorrow that burdens the soul as a result of this curse. Oh that the people of God would come to see the richness of His mercy and the fullness of the redemption that has been provided for us at every level and in every area of our lives. Such is the glorious work that God has completed in Christ Jesus!

Psa 107:31
(31)  Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness,
and for his wonderful works to the children of men!


Blessings to you, and I look forward to the sharing and teaching you have to offer!

In Him

Didaskalos