The false doctrine of the immortality of the soul (or State of the Dead).

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Eila

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Eila,

While we are made in the image of God, we do not have immortality, which is what this discussion had started out to be about.

How were you made in the image of God?

We aren’t really “born again” until we are resurrected at the return of Jesus. Then we will be changed from corruptible (mortal) to incorruptible (immortal). (15th chapter of 1 Corinthians). We don’t have immortality now and aren’t given immortality until that time.

1 Peter 1 "
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit[d] in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,[e] 24 because
“ All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man[f] as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the LORD endures forever.”[g]
Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you."

1 JOhn 5 " 1EVERYONE WHO believes (adheres to, trusts, and relies on the fact) that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah) is a born-again child of God; and everyone who loves the Father also loves the one born of Him (His offspring)."

Born-again is not referring to anything in the future for a Christian, but an event in the past. When Jesus mentions being born again he is not talking about the body.

John 3 "3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "

What is born of flesh is flesh. The flesh is born of water (i.e. bag of waters) and the spirit is born from above. The spirit is clearly what is reborn here and not the body.

Your “heart” would be where you feel emotions and right from wrong.

What you are describing is considered a soul.

What do you believe the “spirit” is?

Man is a triune being - spirit, soul and body. Man worships God with his spirit and it is that part of man that contacts God. The soul is the mind, emotions, and will of man. The body is the way man connects to this world..

How would this be incorrect if it were a parable? You say that this is not about their bodies, and that their bodies were buried. If this is about their “spirits” or “souls”, which you say is “an immaterial part of man that exists apart from the body beyond death”, how could Lazarus have had a finger to dip in water, and how could the rich man have had a tongue to have the water cool off. How could a “spirit” be tormented by physical flames? None of this could happen if their "spirit" or "soul" was immaterial.

I looks like we could go back and forth on what a soul is, but the thing to remember is that nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that we have immortality. We will be given it at the resurrection when Christ returns.

In the Bible we find God described as having an eye, hand, etc yet we know God is Spirit. John 4 "24God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality)."

The disciples thought they saw a ghost on two separate occasions. Each time they were looking at the image of a man with fingers, etc. Who is to say what a spirit looks like?

The Bible does say that we have already passed from death to life. 1 John 3 "14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother[c] abides in death."
 
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ChrisCarol

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One of the reasons this incorrect doctrine of an immortal soul is so easily accepted is the very nature of mankind. God did not create man with the inclination of death or to want to die. God created man to live forever. The blue print for eternal life is in the cells of every living thing. The only reason we die now is because of the curse of sin and a few measly hormones that cause the aging process/catabolism to go on. Death is the enemy of men. No one wants to die and it's so easy to rationalize away the scriptures of God that tell us the dead know not anything Ecc 9:5.

Satan comes along and waves a carrot under our noses that we all desparately want to believe in and that is that the soul is immortal. This is a traditional doctrine handed down from ancient times but it is not supported by the Bible at all.


God Bless
Jim Larmore
The wages of sin is death
But the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

I come that you might have life and have it more abundantly.John 10:10


Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."John 3:36

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.John 20:31


He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.1 John 5:12




Believe it or not!!!
 
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Oye11

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The wages of sin is death
But the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

I come that you might have life and have it more abundantly.John 10:10


Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."John 3:36

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.John 20:31


He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.1 John 5:12




Believe it or not!!!

I certainly believe it. Notice the present tenses here, for this spiritual life from which you will "never thirst" (John 4-13). And I greatly fear for those who do not now possess it or have any consciousness of what it is.
 
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reddogs

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Jesus himself calls the unconscious state of the dead "sleep" in John 11:11-14.
11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

12His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead"

When we die we dont know anything more, or go around telling our loved ones, from beyond the grave in a spirit, directions to choose in life or watch them as they go about their lives:

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:12, 21. "Neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:6.


Man dies and lies in the grave till he is redeemed by Jesus Christ at the second coming, that was the whole reason for his sacrifice at the cross so could be redeemed and death would lose its sting on us.

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more." Job 14:12. "The day of the Lord will come ... in the which the heavens shall pass away."
2 Peter 3:10.
 
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drmmjr

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How were you made in the image of God?



1 Peter 1 "
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit[d] in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,[e] 24 because
“ All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man[f] as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the LORD endures forever.”[g]
Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you."

1 JOhn 5 " 1EVERYONE WHO believes (adheres to, trusts, and relies on the fact) that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah) is a born-again child of God; and everyone who loves the Father also loves the one born of Him (His offspring)."

Born-again is not referring to anything in the future for a Christian, but an event in the past. When Jesus mentions being born again he is not talking about the body.

John 3 "3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "

What is born of flesh is flesh. The flesh is born of water (i.e. bag of waters) and the spirit is born from above. The spirit is clearly what is reborn here and not the body.



What you are describing is considered a soul.



Man is a triune being - spirit, soul and body. Man worships God with his spirit and it is that part of man that contacts God. The soul is the mind, emotions, and will of man. The body is the way man connects to this world..



In the Bible we find God described as having an eye, hand, etc yet we know God is Spirit. John 4 "24God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality)."

The disciples thought they saw a ghost on two separate occasions. Each time they were looking at the image of a man with fingers, etc. Who is to say what a spirit looks like?

The Bible does say that we have already passed from death to life. 1 John 3 "14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother[c] abides in death."
We seem to have gone off on a tangent from the topic of this thread about the “immortality of the soul”. You have mentioned that we are made up of three parts - spirit, soul, and body. When a person is “born again”, which of these is reborn, when is it reborn, and how is it reborn? If something is reborn, it under goes a change. In what way does it change?

You said “Born-again is not referring to anything in the future for a Christian, but an event in the past. When Jesus mentions being born again he is not talking about the body.” Again, if it doesn’t happen in the future (at the resurrection), when does it happen? And if it is not the body that is changing, what changes and how?
 
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Eila

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We seem to have gone off on a tangent from the topic of this thread about the “immortality of the soul”. You have mentioned that we are made up of three parts - spirit, soul, and body. When a person is “born again”, which of these is reborn, when is it reborn, and how is it reborn? If something is reborn, it under goes a change. In what way does it change?

You said “Born-again is not referring to anything in the future for a Christian, but an event in the past. When Jesus mentions being born again he is not talking about the body.” Again, if it doesn’t happen in the future (at the resurrection), when does it happen? And if it is not the body that is changing, what changes and how?

It can only be considered a tangent if you believe your body is what is born again. When you accept Jesus you are born again. It is not the body referered to here, but your spirit.

Look here in John 3
"3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Being born again is necessary to see the kingdom of God.

"4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

Nicodemus assumes this "born again" has to do with natural birth from a woman and doesn't understand how that happens so Jesus clarifies.

"5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

When a baby comes into the world he is born of water - bag of waters. Jesus is talking about a different type of birth. This birth is of the Spirit.

"6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

When we were born as a baby we received a body. When we are born of the Spirit it is our spirit that is reborn.

"7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”"

When a person is born again we cannot see what happens inside, yet the impact remains.
 
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Eila

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Jesus himself calls the unconscious state of the dead "sleep" in John 11:11-14.
11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

12His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead"

When we die we dont know anything more, or go around telling our loved ones, from beyond the grave in a spirit, directions to choose in life or watch them as they go about their lives:

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:12, 21. "Neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:6.


Man dies and lies in the grave till he is redeemed by Jesus Christ at the second coming, that was the whole reason for his sacrifice at the cross so could be redeemed and death would lose its sting on us.

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more." Job 14:12. "The day of the Lord will come ... in the which the heavens shall pass away."
2 Peter 3:10.

"Sleep" is used to refer to bodies that will be resurrected. Redemption of our bodies has not happened yet, that is what we are waiting for.
 
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drmmjr

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It can only be considered a tangent if you believe your body is what is born again. When you accept Jesus you are born again. It is not the body referered to here, but your spirit.

Look here in John 3
"3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Being born again is necessary to see the kingdom of God.

"4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

Nicodemus assumes this "born again" has to do with natural birth from a woman and doesn't understand how that happens so Jesus clarifies.

"5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

When a baby comes into the world he is born of water - bag of waters. Jesus is talking about a different type of birth. This birth is of the Spirit.

"6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

When we were born as a baby we received a body. When we are born of the Spirit it is our spirit that is reborn.

"7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”"

When a person is born again we cannot see what happens inside, yet the impact remains.
You've responded without really answering my questions. You say that it is our spirit that is reborn. You're telling me the what, but there was more to the question.

Again I ask, when a person is “born again”, which of these (spirit, soul, body) is reborn, when is it reborn, and how is it reborn? If something is reborn, it under goes a change. In what way does it change?

You responded to reddogs with this:[quote Eila]"Sleep" is used to refer to bodies that will be resurrected. Redemption of our bodies has not happened yet, that is what we are waiting for.[/quote]
If your spirit has been reborn, why would you need a resurrected body? Or are there two "rebirths", one of the spirit and the other of the body? If that is the case, then what about the "rebirth" of the soul?

The main topic of this discussion has been concerning "The False Doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul (or State of the Dead). How does immortality figure in your scheme of things?
 
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mysterychristian

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The Dead are NOT Alive

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

In the grave the dead have no:
  • knowledge, wisdom
  • reward
  • memory
  • love, hatred, envy
  • portion
  • work
  • device
The Word of God is the Will of God. What God says in His Word is true. He says what He means and means what He says. God's Word declares that the dead exist in a state of gravedom or unconsciousness in which they have no knowledge or wisdom. Their memory is forgotten. (This does not mean we have forgotten them - it means they have no memory). They earn no rewards. They do no work. They do not "invent things" (there is no device). They have no emotions - love, hate, or jealousy.
When someone says they have heard from someone who has died they are directly contradicting God's Word.
  • The dead can not tell you information. They have no knowledge.
  • The dead can not tell you about some new idea. There is no device in the grave.
  • The dead can not tell you they love you. There is no love, hate, or envy in the grave.
  • The dead can not come back for revenge. There is no hate or jealousy in the grave.
  • The dead can not earn redemption. There is no work in the grave and there are no rewards.
In short the dead have NO MORE PORTION FOR EVER IN ANY THING DONE UNDER THE SUN!
The dead have nothing to do with the living. They are DEAD!


Death is an enemy:

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Death is the direct result of Adams disobedience to God's command.

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Death comes from the devil - NOT GOD.
Jesus Christ came to destroy him that has the power of death - the devil.

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Jesus Christ came that we might have life and that we might have it more abundantly: everlasting life.

The return of Jesus Christ will bring victory over the enemy: death

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:51-55
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Philippians 3:20-21
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.




Isaiah 26:8b...the desire of our soul is to thy name, and to the remembrance of thee.
Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Isaiah 38:18-19a For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day...
 
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mysterychristian

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Truth VS Experience

Something is not true because you experience it. Something is true because God's Word says it is true. You must judge your experiences by the truth of God's Word and never judge or attempt to understand God's Word in light of your experiences. Experiences can be deceitful and counterfeit. Only by knowing and acting according to the truth of God's Word can you be assured that your experiences will glorify God.

To understand this concept we will examine the record in God's Word regarding Saul and the woman of Endor. Let us look first at the truth of the Word.

TRUTH
Leviticus 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.


Leviticus 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
A familiar spirit is a devil spirit that hangs around to get "familiar" with people and circumstances and then impersonates a person after he/she dies and speaks through another person who has the familiar spirit living in him. A counterfeit must be very very close to the original to be believed. When a familiar spirit produces a person who was once alive, it must look, act, and sound like the original if the counterfeit is to be believed by someone who is very knowledgeable of the person being imitated. The familiar spirit will use information that "only the person who has died could know" to convince those consulting it.

The Word of God is clear regarding God's view of such practices. God says it is an abomination (it is disgusting! yuk!) to listen to a person with a familiar spirit. God says anyone who consults with a person who has a familiar spirit should be cut off from among God's people, not found among the believers, and that believers are not to regard or listen to what familiar spirits have to say. A person who allowed a familiar spirit to live within him was to be "put to death."

God's Word is clear that these counterfeit experiences are deceitful and are to be avoided. Believers are not to get mixed up with the practice of talking to the dead. What else does God's Word say regarding communicating with those who have died?
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

The dead have no:

  • knowledge, wisdom
  • reward
  • memory
  • love, hatred, envy
  • portion
  • work
  • device
The Word of God is the Will of God. What God says in His Word is true. He says what He means and means what He says. God's Word declares that the dead exist in a state of gravedom or unconsciousness in which they have no knowledge or wisdom. Their memory is forgotten. (This does not mean we have forgotten them - it means they have no memory). They earn no rewards. They do no work. They do not "invent things" (there is no device). They have no emotions - love, hate, or jealousy.

When someone says they have heard from someone who has died they are directly contradicting God's Word.
  • The dead cannot tell you information. They have no knowledge.
  • The dead cannot relate to you an incident from when they were alive for their memory is forgotten.
  • The dead cannot tell you about some new idea. There is no device in the grave.
  • The dead cannot tell you they love you. There is no love, hate, or envy in the grave.
  • The dead cannot come back for revenge. There is no hate or jealousy in the grave.
  • The dead cannot earn redemption. There is no work in the grave and there are no rewards.
In short the dead have NO MORE PORTION FOR EVER IN ANY THING DONE UNDER THE SUN!

The dead have nothing to do with the living. They are DEAD! This is the truth of God's Word. Therefore, any experience that relates to communication with the dead has to be a deceitful counterfeit promoted by a devil spirit (known as a familiar spirit) imitating a person who has died. That is why the Word of God says such experience is not to be regarded or sought after and is disgusting to God.

EXPERIENCE
Now, lets look at King Saul. Saul had disobeyed God and the man of God, Samuel, told Saul that God was sorry that He had ever made Saul the king. Samuel had anointed David to be the new king and did not speak to or visit Saul again. Saul was "out of favor" with God and Samuel and was following after devil spirits. After Samuel died Saul tried to talk to God:
I Samuel 28:3
Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and wizards, out of the land.


Samuel, the man of God, was dead. Saul had put those with familiar spirits out of the land but he had not killed them as the law required. He put them out of the land but he also had servants that kept track of where they were (just in case he needed them.)
I Samuel 28:6
And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.


Because of his disobedience, Saul eventually got into so much trouble that he asked God to help. However, God had rejected Saul and refused to give him HIS Word. God was not talking. Therefore Saul decided to try and talk to Samuel who was dead! Now, the Word of God is clear. You cannot talk to the dead and they cannot talk to you. But experiences with communication with the "so called" dead were, and ARE, available via familiar spirits. The experience is counterfeit and deceitful and disgusting to God; but it is available and Saul's servants knew just where to find a woman with a familiar spirit.
I Samuel 28:7
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.


Saul knew God's Word regarding familiar spirits, yet he put the opportunity for this experience above the truth of God's Word. God would not talk to him, but a woman with a familiar spirit would. However, being the king of Israel and the one who expelled those with familiar spirits from the land, he knew that he would have to go in disguise.
I Samuel 28:8-11
And Saul disguised himself and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.


Saul promised this woman (who deserved death according to the law of God) that nothing would happen to her. And he promised it in God's name. Now this woman was not very smart. The Word of God says that Saul was a head taller than anyone in the kingdom. Even in disguise, it would be difficult to not recognize Saul. Then Saul, knowing that the dead are dead and cannot communicate with the living, asked the woman to use the familiar spirit to produce Samuel. God would not talk to him, and Samuel refused to talk to him when he was alive - how could Saul believe that the experience he was about to have would really be Samuel giving him God's Word? ? ? If he were relying upon a knowledge of the truth, he would not and could not believe it. But Saul was looking for experience - not truth.
I Samuel 28:12
And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.


As the spirit possessing this woman took control she suddenly got real smart. The devil spirit had no trouble recognizing Saul. And with this declaration, the spirit (and the false experience) got Saul's attention. The spirit imitated Samuel and held a conversation with Saul. The spirit reiterated the Word of God that Saul knew by heart - that God was departed from him. Devil spirits use the truth of God's Word and twist it to convince those who value the experience more than the truth. This spirit never told Saul any positive thing; nor did it tell him anything that had not already been revealed to him (with the notable exception that it told Saul about his death.) Death is of the devil (Hebrews 2:14) anyway, and the spirit was setting Saul up to die. It led him to continue to feel sorry for himself and convinced Saul that he was going to go into battle and die.

I am sure that Saul was overwhelmed by the accuracy and bad news he received from this experience. It was not God's Will for Saul to continue in his disobedience and die. Yet this experience convinced Saul that there was no hope for reconciliation with God. He went forward into battle and he was killed as the devil spirit predicted. By inquiring of a familiar spirit, Saul brought himself to a spiritual low that resulted in his death and the death of his sons.
I Samuel 31:2-4, 6
And the Philistines followed hard upon Saul and upon his sons; and the Philistines slew Jonathan, and Abinadab, and Malchishua, Saul's sons.
And the battle went sore against Saul, and the archers hit him; and he was sore wounded of the archers.
Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me though, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. . .
So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together.


Experientially, Saul died from being wounded by the enemy archers and by falling upon his sword. But the truth of God's Word is that Saul died because he sought an experience with a familiar spirit over the truth of God's Word.
I Chronicles 10:13
So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit to inquire of it.

Something is not true because you experience it. Something is true because God's Word says it is true. God's Word is truth not our experiences.
 
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mysterychristian

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You've responded without really answering my questions. You say that it is our spirit that is reborn. You're telling me the what, but there was more to the question.

Again I ask, when a person is “born again”, which of these (spirit, soul, body) is reborn, when is it reborn, and how is it reborn? If something is reborn, it under goes a change. In what way does it change?

You responded to reddogs with this:[quote Eila]"Sleep" is used to refer to bodies that will be resurrected. Redemption of our bodies has not happened yet, that is what we are waiting for.
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Eila

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You've responded without really answering my questions. You say that it is our spirit that is reborn. You're telling me the what, but there was more to the question.

Again I ask, when a person is “born again”, which of these (spirit, soul, body) is reborn, when is it reborn, and how is it reborn? If something is reborn, it under goes a change. In what way does it change?

The spirit is reborn when you come to Jesus. It is born from above. The spirit goes from death to life.

1 John 3 "14We know that we have passed over out of death into Life by the fact that we love the brethren (our fellow Christians). He who does not love abides (remains, is [j]held and kept continually) in [spiritual] death."

You responded to reddogs with this:[quote Eila]"Sleep" is used to refer to bodies that will be resurrected. Redemption of our bodies has not happened yet, that is what we are waiting for.
If your spirit has been reborn, why would you need a resurrected body? Or are there two "rebirths", one of the spirit and the other of the body? If that is the case, then what about the "rebirth" of the soul?

No, there are not two rebirths since we are spirit beings. We do receive a new body and I believe santification is mainly the work in the soul. I wouldn't call them rebirths, but maybe some do. The body is just a tent - the dwelling place for the soul and spirit. You will simply receive a new dwelling place. We are physical and spiritual beings. It is God's plan to give His children glorifed bodies.

To put it simply I believe the body is the dwelling place for the soul and spirit. The soul is our mind, will, and emotions. The spirit is the part of us born from above. It is through our spirit that we commune with God. It is the deepest part of a person. Romans 8 "6The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God." God is a triune God and we were made in the image of God. God is a Spirit. Genesis 1:26 "6God said, Let Us [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness, and let them have complete authority over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the [tame] beasts, and over all of the earth, and over everything that creeps upon the earth." God is a God of the spirits in this world - Numbers 16 " And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin and will You be angry with all the congregation?" and Numbers 27 " Let the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation"

1 John 5 "
3For the [true] love of God is this: that we do His commands [keep His ordinances and are mindful of His precepts and teaching]. And these orders of His are not irksome (burdensome, oppressive, or grievous).
4For whatever is born of God is victorious over the world; and this is the victory that conquers the world, even our faith.
5Who is it that is victorious over [that conquers] the world but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on that fact]?
"
The born again man is victorious over the things in this world.

The main topic of this discussion has been concerning "The False Doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul (or State of the Dead). How does immortality figure in your scheme of things?

When we come to Jesus we have eternal life. This life is not in our body for our body will sleep in the dust of the earth. This life is our spirit reborn. Our bodies are motal bodies. We will receive immortal bodies when we receive our glorified bodies. However, we have already received eternal life in our spirit.
 
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