Is the teaching of Toll Houses "heresy"?

KATHXOYMENOC · Feb 20, 2007

NewToLife wrote:

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=32043901&postcount=1

NewToLife said:
The time for me to depart this board has come, I wish those of you who remain well.

The decision to leave has been coming for some time, it started a long time ago when I observed the actions of those who regard the toll houses as heresy go largely unchecked. Finally now, after a long time of reflection I feel I can leave here without regretting that decision. To stay I feel would only result in conflict as I know that I am not of one mind with some who post here and I am not inclined to hold my tongue all the time. The Church has the breadth to contain us all but I do not believe one internet community can say the same. In truth I have known for some time that I do not belong here.

Those who I have angered I would ask forgiveness from, in turn I will bear no ill will.

I may continue to post elsewhere in CF.

So ... are the teachings about toll houses "heresy"? Or is it more accurate to regard them as theologoumena rather than as heretical? Or are they in fact more a part of the Orthodox faith than simply theologoumena?

ufonium2 · Feb 20, 2007

They are not heresy. Talk to your priest about it. In fact, I have talked to your priest about it.

KATHXOYMENOC · Feb 20, 2007

ufonium2 said:
They are not heresy. Talk to your priest about it. In fact, I have talked to your priest about it.

So, how do you know Fr. Justin? Do you live in the DFW metroplex? :wave:

Knowledge3 · Feb 20, 2007

I don't consider toll houses to be heresy.

jckstraw72 · Feb 20, 2007

what is theologoumena?

they may not be universally accepted but i dont see how anyone could say they're heretical.

kamikat · Feb 20, 2007

My priest considers them a pious opinion, but something that should not be studied until one is firm in the faith.

ufonium2 · Feb 20, 2007

KATHXOYMENOC said:
So, how do you know Fr. Justin? Do you live in the DFW metroplex?

Your choir director and his wife are friends of mine from way back. In fact, I'll be at your parish for their baby's baptism in May.

I think Fr. Justin is great. He really helped me a lot when I had issues with a parish I attended briefly. One of the issues with that parish was their insistence that the Toll Houses were heresy, and as such it was okay to tell lies (and make gay jokes) about Fr. Seraphim. That's how Fr. Justin and I came to discuss Toll Houses.

gorion · Feb 20, 2007

I don't believe the church has ever declared the idea a heresy.

I may not agree with it but that in and of itself does not make it heresy. It also does not make me a heretic.

Orthodox Andrew · Feb 20, 2007

Far from it. They are actually quite Orthodox.

MariaRegina · Feb 20, 2007

The Orthodox Church has few dogmas, because She focuses on anathematizing heresies that pertain to Christ and the Holy Trinity. That Mary is Ever a Virgin touches on the Birth of Christ. So all our dogmas pertain to Christ or the Holy Trinity.

Other than that, there are many pious opinions which are not declared dogmas. The Toll House teaching is one of those theologoumena.

KATHXOYMENOC · Feb 20, 2007

jckstraw72 said:
what is theologoumena?

they may not be universally accepted but i dont see how anyone could say they're heretical.

Theologoumena is the plural of theologoumenon.

Theos = God
logos (pl. logoi) = word(s)/matter(s)/subject(s)
menon = neuter singular nominative present middle/passive participle ending in Greek

Though unable to find an online definition, I would offer that a definition of theologoumenon could be that it is basically a theological opinion that does not have the status of doctrine or dogma, but it is supportable and held and taught by reliable sources - who would also assert that it's opinion, and not doctrine or dogma.

KATHXOYMENOC · Feb 20, 2007

ufonium2 said:
Your choir director and his wife are friends of mine from way back. In fact, I'll be at your parish for their baby's baptism in May.

I think Fr. Justin is great. He really helped me a lot when I had issues with a parish I attended briefly. One of the issues with that parish was their insistence that the Toll Houses were heresy, and as such it was okay to tell lies (and make gay jokes) about Fr. Seraphim. That's how Fr. Justin and I came to discuss Toll Houses.

Be sure to introduce yourself. I'll be the 5'8" thin middle-aged (55 by May) guy with gray hair - somewhat like my CF character, but with glasses and without the beard.

Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta · Feb 20, 2007

When I was a catechumen, I asked an OCA priest about this issue. He actually did tell me that it was a Gnostic heresy.

I've never asked any other priest about it (yet). I have a feeling that my current priest, who is not OCA, would not have the same opinion. I imagine he would say it is just a pious opinion.

With that said, on a personal level, I don't think I buy into it, but I wouldn't really call it heresy, either.

Sothron · Feb 20, 2007

I asked one of our priests about this a few weeks ago and he after he explained what it meant he told me not to worry about it since it is not a salvation issue for a catechumen.

I still agree with that. I don't agree with the toll house theory at all. But I wouldn't call it a heresy either.

gzt · Feb 20, 2007

No. Maybe. Some people surely make it into a heresy. The question is which tollhouse theory they are speaking of. But, just, not during the first week of Lent. Please to be avoiding controversy in the first week of Lent.

Eusebios · Feb 20, 2007

I certainly do not see it as such, but then who am I? I also have not witnessed any vehement arguments about it and would avoid being sucked into the same(I hope).
It is, as already been rightly pointed out, a pious opinion regarding the afterlife. And we all know about "opinions" right?
I fully agree with GZT here, the first week of Great Lent is hardly an appropriate time to pick nits, but rather to fall down before Christ , begging forgiveness, and asking Him to remove the spirit of judgment.
In Xp,
Eusebios
:bow:

Michael G · Feb 20, 2007

Why does the topic of chocolate chip cookies always come up every few months?

Matrona · Feb 20, 2007

gzt said:
Some people surely make it into a heresy. The question is which tollhouse theory they are speaking of.

I'm a firm dis-believer in toll houses, but I couldn't make an argument that treating them as an eschatological symbol is somehow heretical. If they are real, they are nothing to fret about when compared to facing the dread judgment seat of Christ. If they're wrong, I've heard wilder ideas with much less patristic support espoused by Orthodox and are much more worthy of our concern.

Grigorii · Feb 20, 2007

So ... are the teachings about toll houses "heresy"? Or is it more accurate to regard them as theologoumena rather than as heretical? Or are they in fact more a part of the Orthodox faith than simply theologoumena?

Though some people I respect deeply disagree with me on this, I'de say that Toll Houses in the version of Fr. Seraphim Rose are not necessarily heresy but they can easily slip into becoming heresy. Fr. Michael Azkoul's criticism of Fr. Seraphim Rose is imho not reliable. I am not aware of a balanced critical evaluation of Fr. Seraphim Rose's doctrine of Toll Houses. My spiritual father believes they are heresy though, and I respectfully disagree but I agree to his concerns.

Gregorios

OnTheWay · Feb 20, 2007

KATHXOYMENOC said:
Be sure to introduce yourself. I'll be the 5'8" thin middle-aged (55 by May) guy with gray hair - somewhat like my CF character, but with glasses and without the beard.

Since when did 55 become middle aged?

Is the teaching of Toll Houses "heresy"?

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