Trinity-A Jewish insight for the Word of God in John 1:1

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Phoenix

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I saw this from another message board and thought i would post it here. Great article-John knew exactly what he wanted to convey to the reader of John 1:1 - and the Word was made Flesh.

The Targums were authoritative Aramaic paraphrases of the books of the Tenach which were read in the synagogues along with the Hebrew of the Torah and hafTorah readings. Whenever the Targums come to passages where YHWH is anthropomorphisised or seen, or where two or more YHWHs are indicated by the text, the Targums will often substitute "The Word [Memra] of YHWH" for YHWH.

For example in Gen. 19:4 the Tenach has:

And YHVH rained brimstone and fire upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah, from YHVH, from the heavens. (Original Bible Project preliminary edition)

The Hebrew grammar here indicates that one YHWH rains fire from another YHWH). But Targum Jonathan substitutes "The Word of YHWH/the L-RD" for the first of the two YHWHs as follows:

And the Word of the YHWH caused to descend upon the peoples of Sodom and Gommorah, brimstone and fire from the YHWH in heaven.

In another example the Torah has:

Ex. 24:1a (YHWH is the speaker, see Ex. 20:1-2) Now He [YHWH] said to Moses, "come up to YHWH..."

But Targum Jonathan paraphrases the speaker in Ex. 20:1 with the substitution "the Word [Memra] of YHWH" in place of "YHWH."

And the Word of the Lord spoke all these glorious words ... So it would seem that one of these entities called "YHWH" in these Torah passages was actually understood by the Targumists as being the "Word of YHWH."

It was, according to Targum Onkelos, this Word of YHWH that Abraham trusted in:



And Abraham trusted in the Word [Memra] of YHWH, and He counted it to him for righteousness. (Targum Onkelos Gen. 15:6)

Moreover Abraham prayed in the name of the Word of YHWH:

And Abraham worshipped and prayed in the name of  the Word [Memra] of YHWH, and said, "You are YHWH who does see, but You cannot be seen." (Jerusalem Targum Gen. 22:14)

Note that here Abraham prays "in the name of the Word of YHWH" to the YHWH who "cannot be seen." Here two YHWHs are very apparent. Abraham is praying in the name of the Word of YHWH but is praying to the YHWH who cannot be seen. This idea is reinforced elsewhere as follows:

And Hagar praised and prayed in the name of the Word [Memra] Of YHWH who had revealed Himself to her (Jerusalem Targum Gen. 16:3)

It was this Word of YHWH that Jacob also trusted in:

And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, "If the Word [Memra] of YHWH will be my support, and will keep me in the way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, so that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Word [Memra]of YHWH be my G-d. (Targum Onkelos on Gen. 28:20-21)

King David also urged Israel to trust in the Word of Yah as the Targum of Psalm 62 reads:

Trust in the Word of Yah at all times, O people of the house of Israel! Pour out before Him the sighings of your heart; Say, G-d is our trust forever. (Targum on Psalm 62:9)

This "Word of YHWH" was, according to Targum Jonathan, the Creator



And the Word [Memra] of YHWH created man in his likeness, in the likeness of YHWH, YHWH created, male and female created He them. (Targ. Jonathan Gen. 1:27)

This idea is also put forward in the Jerusalem Targum:

And the Word [Memra] of YHWH said to Moses: "I am He who said unto the world 'Be!' and it was: and who in the future shall say to it 'Be!' and it shall be." And He said: "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'I Am' has sent me to you." (Jerusalem Targum Ex. 3:14)

The Fragmentary Targum of the Torah also expresses that the Word of YHWH was the Creator:

The first night, when the "Word of YHWH" was revealed to the world in order to create it, the world was desolate and void, and darkness spread over the   face of the abyss and the "Word of the Lord" was bright and illuminating and He called it the first night. (Fragmentary Targum Ex. 12:42)

That the Word of YHWH was the Creator can also be seen in the Tenach itself:

By the Word of YHWH were the heavens made, And all the hosts of them by the Spirit of His mouth. (Ps. 33:6)

The Word was also the covenant maker. For example the Noachdic covenant was between the Word and all mankind:

And YHWH said to Noah, "This is the token of the covenant which I have established between My Word [Memra] and between all flesh that is upon the earth. (Targum Onkelos Gen. 9:17)

The Word also made the Abrahamic covenant as Targum Onkelos also paraphrases

And I will establish my covenant between My Word [Memra} and between you
(Targum Onkelos Gen. 17:7)

The Word of YHWH was also the giver of the Mosaic Covenant and the Torah as the Jerusalem Targum (as quoted above) makes the Torah giver "the Word of YHWH" in Ex. 20:1. It was to the Word that Jacob turned to for salvation:

Our father Jacob said: "My soul does not wait for salvation such as that wrought by Gideon, the son of Joash, for that was but temporal; neither for a salvation like that of Samson, which was only transitory; but for that salvation which You have promised to come, through Your Word unto Your people, the children of Israel; for your salvation my soul hopes." (Targum Jonathan Gen. 49:18)

That the Word of YHWH is the savior is expressed elsewhere:

But Israel shall be saved by the Word of YHWH with an everlasting salvation By the Word of YHWH shall all the seed of Israel be justified. (Targum Jonathan Is. 45:17, 25)

But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and I will save them by the Word of YHWH, their G-d. (Targum Jonathan Hosea 1:7)
 

Phoenix

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Actually Louis, I've been looking at it pretty carefully, I've found some pretty disturbing stuff. While i dont doubt the validity of the translations above, some of the things i've read have really got me stumped. Although i think there's obviously a distiction between the two i'm sure i read a comment somewhere that the author believes that Christiandom ( not necessarily Christianity ) is the great harlot of Babalyon.
 
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Phoenix

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Well, part of it is here. Which i think is a very interesting commentary.

http://www.nazarene.net/biblaw.htm

I've been seeking out guidance on this article, parts of it make sense to me but most is contradictory to what i've been learning.

Here's the other one on replacement theology with the great harlot remark.

http://www.nazarene.net/FAQ2.htm

Again interesting stuff, but way over my head.
 
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LouisBooth

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ahh..replacement theology....LOL..studied it.

"except for their belief in Messiah... but since they are still fettered by the Law-- circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest-- they are not in accord with "

If this is true, then they do not or have not read the book of galatians, for it was written to a group of christians who had a "run in" with a group called judizers that believed that the laws should and must be followed. Paul's emphasis on circumsion being of the heart is very telling. Read more of galatians if you are contemplating on talking to someone about this.
 
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OldShepherd

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Originally posted by Phoenix
Well, part of it is here. Which i think is a very interesting commentary.

I've been seeking out guidance on this article, parts of it make sense to me but most is contradictory to what i've been learning.

Here's the other one on replacement theology with the great harlot remark.

Again interesting stuff, but way over my head.

I took one look at the home page and got out of there as fast as I could. I have had one debate with Dr. (so-called) James Trimm on another forum. He posted some nonsense about the life of Jesus being copied from the Babylonian legend of Tammuz. When I asked for documentation he never responded. I have received email that he had a religious diploma mill operating in one of the western states until the state AG shut him down. He claims to have a PhD but the same email raised a lot of questions about his education.
 
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Noa

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YHVH is Yeshua...

Another thing:

1 ¶ IN THE beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2  Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters.
3 ¶ And God said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light.
Genesis 1:1-3; Jewish TeNaCH

Verse 1: YHVH Elohim, G´d the Father

Verse 2: Roeach HaKodesh, the Holy Sprit

Verse 3: YHVH Yeshua, G´d the Son: The Light (see John 1)

Baruch Yeshua HaAdon! :wave:

Noa
 
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Phoenix

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Thank you Noa. That's kind of where i started when i came upon the website i found. I've gotten so tired of the is Jesus/God debates that i thought i would try and take things a few steps further and look for writings that would indicate perhaps how the Old Testament audience would have looked at Jesus and of course they would believe that he was God the Father.
 
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TWells

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30th August 2002 at 01:12 PM Phoenix said this in Post #12

Thank you Noa. That's kind of where i started when i came upon the website i found. I've gotten so tired of the is Jesus/God debates that i thought i would try and take things a few steps further and look for writings that would indicate perhaps how the Old Testament audience would have looked at Jesus and of course they would believe that he was God the Father.


You might want to check out this article by JP Holding about the Trinity and the "Word" in light of Jewish Wisdom theology:

http://www.tektonics.org/JPH_AOA.html

Its very interesting and helped my understanding of the Trinity a lot. I would also recommend the rest of the site - www.tektonics.org as its the best apologetics site on the web IMHO.
 
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