Capitalism- Good or Bad?
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TheReasoner
Former christian, current teapot agnostic.
You didn't read her post. The problem is YOUR government. Not government. Big difference. YOUR government has failed on some issues other governments have not failed in.
You claim to love your freedom. I ask you then; Why are you so readily giving away your rights and freedoms to the corporations? The USA is not really that free. You depend on insurance to get what you need to live. Your freedom of speech has dropped considerably. You are now on a shared 53rd place. A place you share with countries like Botswana, Croatia and Tonga. In comparison, Finland and Iceland are both number 1. Norway is number 6, and Sweden 14. Canada 18. Socialistic governments, all freer than your own capitalistic country.
Also, your consumption, which I guess you equate with freedom, is dependent on highly unethical forms of production and trade. Not to mention that your consumption in itself is unethical and leads us all towards a world with exhausted natural resources. (not that we do not share in this crime)
So, where is your freedom ? And what 'freedom' you seem to enjoy - is it worth the price?
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Ok, in how many of those countries can I:
1. Defend myself
2. Join a National Socialist Party
3. Deny the Holocaust
4. Go into a store, and with nothing more than my driver's license, purchase weaponry.
5. Purchase ammo for my weapons.
6. Fly a swastika.
7. Find a copy of Mein Kampf.
8. Walk away from the police if they approach me.
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TheReasoner
Former christian, current teapot agnostic.
I have not been to all those nations. And it sounds that you have certain ideas about other nations that are simply false. It seems you confuse freedom with anarchy. Freedom is not the absence of guidelines and laws. Freedom is much more than that.
1. I would certainly think you are entitled to that. I know you are here in Scandinavia.
2. Of course you can. Some parties are illegal, like the so-called "white election alliance" here in Norway. But those guys want to eliminate (kill) non-Arians. Thankfully they are just a handful of radical nutcases, and many have had run-ins with the law. They are no threat now.
3. As stated, we have more freedom of speech and freedom of press than you do. Of course you can deny the holochaust. You would be pretty much a moron if you did - as it happened here. Germans had concentration camps close to us. Most schools have trips to Bergenbelsen and Auschwitz to inform them of the atrocities. But you can deny the holochaust yes. You'd be perceived as a complete nut, and you'd probably be in danger of being beat up over it if you stated it in the wrong place, like around 'the blitz'. But it is not illegal. Look at it this way, if you go to Alabama with stuff like "man love rules, ok" or "Nascar sucks" or "Hillary for president" or "country is crap" you are liable to get beat up, or shot. As the people in the british TV program "Top Gear" experienced. Of course, if you come here and insult our national pride you will in all likelihood not be beat up. Nor will you have any problems of this sort. But if you are extremely unlucky with your statements regarding nazism - you *might* be in trouble. However unlikely.
4. I think you can in Canada. But IMHO that is ludicrous. It is unsafe. It is utterly moronic. Oh, spare me the details I have heard Americans argue for it before. Yeah, national security, protection from the government and thieves. That does not matter. Most gun deaths are due to accidents. And look at Iraq how guns have benefited them in the war against you. Doesn't work too well, does it. This had a purpose when you wanted to fight the British. But a Ghandistic opposition is much more effective. I have heard many claim it has a crime-deterrant effect- which statistics prove wrong. Your crime rate is higher than ours. You have a much much larger percent of your population in prison than we do. Yay! Go guns and death penalty. Hooray.
You are of course free to buy weapons here as well. If you can A; Prove you need them. B; Have a license. And C; You must not be liable to misuse. I.E. if you have comitted certain crimes, or are being subject to psychological treatment (i.e. you are in a psychological hospital)you cannot get a gun. You must be 18, 21 for a handgun. 16 to use a firearm of any kind. again, 21 for handguns.
What's more - you can buy guns on any street corner in many totalitarian regimes. That does not in any way make it any more free.
5. Feel free. Just provide your license.
6. Feel free. But do not expect people to act friendly towards you. Remember; Hitler invaded our country and killed off plenty of our citizens. The hatred towards nazism is strong here. In all honesty I would feel very much like planting a fist in the face of anyone who used a swastica myself (not that I would do it of course.)
7. Sure. It is found in libraries. Schools. And book stores.
8. Yeah, of course.
I am more liable to trust our police officers than yours. The training they go through is much more thorough and intense. A friend of mine applied for police academy. With top grades and excellent physique right after leaving the army where he served as a Jeger (hunter) - an elite soldier. He was refused. He needed more education to get in. He needed to get older. You are hard pressed to find a police officer under the age of 26. Even 30 is not too easy. The training is really hard. And, our police officers do not carry firearms. There is no need.
Coca Cola;
India
Colombia
and more... CocaCola is using their corporate power - in search of profit - to abuse the local resources and population.
Dole (the banana company) is in Ecuador is using child labour, it is known to use pesticides while workers are in the field. They are known for actively combating unions to keep prices low for us. This site may be in Spanish, but I hope you get the general idea.
Tommy Hilfiger is using sweatshop labour which is de-facto slavery. In fact, it is worse than slavery would be under some masters. This website contains information on it, and other sweatshop using companies.
I mentioned Shell, I meant Texaco (sorry). Read this.
Use google, and find dirt on the rest if you like.
Fact is, a lot of these corporations have committed grave crimes against the environment. Against their employees. Against foreign nations. And why is this possible? Well, it is certainly made significantly easier by more open borders. Free trade is only good if it is also fair. If it is also equal and just. But these are clear examples of the opposite being the case.
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You could have been talking about Shell, or any number of other companies
Shell to Sea
Shell are, with the backing of the government, intending to rip up a community in Ireland to lay down a giant gas pipeline and a gas refinery on unstable bog land. This is not safe, destroys communities, and is destructive to the environment. All shell cares about is making a quick buck when these pipelines can be built much safer etc. under the sea.
The rationale of all capitalist companies is the drive for profit. The environment, the lives of workers and the general wellbeing of the rest of humanity literally don't appear on the balance sheet.
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AdmiralBell
Active Member
I believe that capitalism has its place, but only under strict government regulation.
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bgrass1234
Regular Member
Everybody knocks on the corporations, but the corporations are just government entities controlled by the private sector. They have special protections for the owners. There should be no government corporations, there should be government partnerships (including marriage). There should only be individuals and groups of individuals that are all held responsible for what they do. Individuals, corporations or partnerships should not getting any benifits from any government. If a business is conducting in a way that we believe is unethical, but not directly being fraudulent, or hurting anyone against that persons will, we should not be looking to using force against them, but to not purchase their goods and services and encourage others to do the same.
The only corporations I know of that you are forced into using their services is the government. And they will use violent force to make you pay. It seems to me the most evil of businesses are the governments around the world.
The only corporations I know of that you are forced into using their services is the government. And they will use violent force to make you pay. It seems to me the most evil of businesses are the governments around the world.
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I will post something I put together a little while ago for a Socialism discussion
Communists and Socialists feel that Capitalism is destructive or negative for several reasons.
First, Capitalism de-values workers- The basic 123 objective of Capitalism is to make as much money as you can while spending as little as possible. This means pinching pennies wherever possible and usually that means taking away from workers. Healthcare, pensions, salaries, and other benefits suffer as a result of the company trying to save money. This creates a situation where people make barely enough money to scrape by or they dont make enough to have even a relatively stable standard of living.
Second, Capitalism puts a price on EVERYTHING- Everything is for sale in a Capitalistic society, nothing is un-buyable and no price is too high. Human life itself has a price-tag (Compensation for accidents, injuries, on the job injuries etc). Money is given in exchange for silence regarding actions that may threaten other people or used to cover up actions that may prove detremental to a person or group
Third, Capitalism fosters a greedy cultural atmosphere- Art suffers in a Capitalistic society. It becomes mass produced and sold like a pound of butter. A painting that may be beautiful wont sell for more than the paper it's printed on, a painting thats hideous may sell for millions of dollars. People get into art simply for the money and totally ignore the actual reason to create art. A Capitalistic society also only fiscally rewards artists that cater to the latest public craze rather than on actual talent. While the wealth associated with art may drive many more people into the arts, these people's motivations are often money and you end up with a slew of mediocre work that de-values art in general.
Fourth, Capitalism encourages a predator mindset- A Capitalistic society rewards the top dog and ignores what they did to get there. If you are the CEO of a successful company, you are showered with money and (usually) respect by others. Even though to get to the top you had to slander, cheat, steal, lie, and generally swindle your way up. Add to that your company is involved in numerous un-ethical practices that are fully known to be dangerous or un-ethical but are continued for the sake of cost-effectivity. People become less important than the wealth they can generate, regardless of what has to be done to generate that wealth.
An excellent example of that is the way illegal aliens are treated. Out here we have MANY people who are un-documented. Managers and bosses will hire them because they know they can pay less than they are legally allowed to do so or treat the people worse. The fear of deportation keeps the people from turning in thier boss and the need for money for survival prohibits quitting.
Fifth, Capitalism does not truly have a free market- Capitalism generates the illusion of a free market economy. But the market is often manipulated by the largest players in the market for the sake of profit. An example is the new Mac commercials that point out problems with PCs. The commercials use a propaganda style of delivery (Showing the Mac as a laid back handsome guy and the PC as an up-tight nerd with bad clothes) to slam thier opposing company's product. A free market is one that cannot (or is not) manipulated by the players in that market. Also, large players in that market will use thier financial power to muscle out competition, under-sell them, or simply outright buy them out. The VOLUMES of laws regarding what you can and cant do economically is a sign that Capitalism is not perfect.
For example, anti-trust laws prohibit a single company gaining a monopoly. Once a company gains a monopoly, theres nothing to keep that company's products or prices competative. If one company owned all the car dealerships in the US, they could charge whatever they liked for a car and because people HAVE to have cars (Our urban centers are NOT designed for foot-traffic in mind), they would pay it. Also theres nothing to force the company to be dilligent about product quality because they have guaranteed customers, they wont spend money they dont need to spend.
Sixth, Capitalism un-evenly distributes wealth- Capitalism does not allow wealth to be spread around because it encourages business owners to do whatever they can to make as much money as they can so they pay employees less. Employees have less saving power because they dont have as much money to save. The rich get richer and the poor stay poor. Persistent long-term inequality of wealth also undermines the motivation of the poor to improve their station in life.
Seventh, Capitalism encourage the splitting of society into classes- Capitalism opens a gap between the have's and the have not's. The people on the low end of the ladder are pushed into crime and it creates a sense of discontentment for the wealthier classes. It serves to fragment people and decrease communication, the wealthy refuse to associate with the poor and the poor look at the wealthy as the source of the trouble.
Eighth, The wealthy in a Capitalistic society are not driven to positively use wealth- Theres no incentive for the wealthy to use what they have to positively benefit people less fortuneate than they. Since Capitalism does not encourage charity or egalitarianism, very few wealthy people ever put what they have to good use. They buy enormous properties and homes that they cant ever possibly hope to use or they stockpile wealth. Warren Buffett has $1, 500, 000, 000 (At today's silver prices) worth of silver just sitting there in vaults collecting dust. The man has 46 BILLION dollars and he's letting a billion and a half just SIT there. You can do A LOT of good with a billion and a half dollars. He currently has the world record for charitable donation. A measily ten million dollars.
Ninth, a Capitalist society or a society with a Capitalist mindset is condusive to political corruption- A perfect example is our modern political body. Politicians are backed by corporations and interests through campaign contributions in exchange for political favors. If that isnt corruption I dont know what is. Nearly every single politician in power now has been given "donations" by large outside interests, usually corporations.
Tenth, a Capitalist society gives no regard to the actual avalibity of funds by people- A Capitalist society encourages businesses to do whatever they have to do to sell people what they are offering. Up to and including destruction of a person's private property (Spyware and Malware). People are pressured and swayed into buying, on credit if necessary, something they may not actually need or even want. A Capitalist society fosters this impulse buy reflex where if a person sees something that looks even remotely interesting, they want to buy it. This leads to massive debt and financial problems for the working class
Communists and Socialists feel that Capitalism is destructive or negative for several reasons.
First, Capitalism de-values workers- The basic 123 objective of Capitalism is to make as much money as you can while spending as little as possible. This means pinching pennies wherever possible and usually that means taking away from workers. Healthcare, pensions, salaries, and other benefits suffer as a result of the company trying to save money. This creates a situation where people make barely enough money to scrape by or they dont make enough to have even a relatively stable standard of living.
Second, Capitalism puts a price on EVERYTHING- Everything is for sale in a Capitalistic society, nothing is un-buyable and no price is too high. Human life itself has a price-tag (Compensation for accidents, injuries, on the job injuries etc). Money is given in exchange for silence regarding actions that may threaten other people or used to cover up actions that may prove detremental to a person or group
Third, Capitalism fosters a greedy cultural atmosphere- Art suffers in a Capitalistic society. It becomes mass produced and sold like a pound of butter. A painting that may be beautiful wont sell for more than the paper it's printed on, a painting thats hideous may sell for millions of dollars. People get into art simply for the money and totally ignore the actual reason to create art. A Capitalistic society also only fiscally rewards artists that cater to the latest public craze rather than on actual talent. While the wealth associated with art may drive many more people into the arts, these people's motivations are often money and you end up with a slew of mediocre work that de-values art in general.
Fourth, Capitalism encourages a predator mindset- A Capitalistic society rewards the top dog and ignores what they did to get there. If you are the CEO of a successful company, you are showered with money and (usually) respect by others. Even though to get to the top you had to slander, cheat, steal, lie, and generally swindle your way up. Add to that your company is involved in numerous un-ethical practices that are fully known to be dangerous or un-ethical but are continued for the sake of cost-effectivity. People become less important than the wealth they can generate, regardless of what has to be done to generate that wealth.
An excellent example of that is the way illegal aliens are treated. Out here we have MANY people who are un-documented. Managers and bosses will hire them because they know they can pay less than they are legally allowed to do so or treat the people worse. The fear of deportation keeps the people from turning in thier boss and the need for money for survival prohibits quitting.
Fifth, Capitalism does not truly have a free market- Capitalism generates the illusion of a free market economy. But the market is often manipulated by the largest players in the market for the sake of profit. An example is the new Mac commercials that point out problems with PCs. The commercials use a propaganda style of delivery (Showing the Mac as a laid back handsome guy and the PC as an up-tight nerd with bad clothes) to slam thier opposing company's product. A free market is one that cannot (or is not) manipulated by the players in that market. Also, large players in that market will use thier financial power to muscle out competition, under-sell them, or simply outright buy them out. The VOLUMES of laws regarding what you can and cant do economically is a sign that Capitalism is not perfect.
For example, anti-trust laws prohibit a single company gaining a monopoly. Once a company gains a monopoly, theres nothing to keep that company's products or prices competative. If one company owned all the car dealerships in the US, they could charge whatever they liked for a car and because people HAVE to have cars (Our urban centers are NOT designed for foot-traffic in mind), they would pay it. Also theres nothing to force the company to be dilligent about product quality because they have guaranteed customers, they wont spend money they dont need to spend.
Sixth, Capitalism un-evenly distributes wealth- Capitalism does not allow wealth to be spread around because it encourages business owners to do whatever they can to make as much money as they can so they pay employees less. Employees have less saving power because they dont have as much money to save. The rich get richer and the poor stay poor. Persistent long-term inequality of wealth also undermines the motivation of the poor to improve their station in life.
Seventh, Capitalism encourage the splitting of society into classes- Capitalism opens a gap between the have's and the have not's. The people on the low end of the ladder are pushed into crime and it creates a sense of discontentment for the wealthier classes. It serves to fragment people and decrease communication, the wealthy refuse to associate with the poor and the poor look at the wealthy as the source of the trouble.
Eighth, The wealthy in a Capitalistic society are not driven to positively use wealth- Theres no incentive for the wealthy to use what they have to positively benefit people less fortuneate than they. Since Capitalism does not encourage charity or egalitarianism, very few wealthy people ever put what they have to good use. They buy enormous properties and homes that they cant ever possibly hope to use or they stockpile wealth. Warren Buffett has $1, 500, 000, 000 (At today's silver prices) worth of silver just sitting there in vaults collecting dust. The man has 46 BILLION dollars and he's letting a billion and a half just SIT there. You can do A LOT of good with a billion and a half dollars. He currently has the world record for charitable donation. A measily ten million dollars.
Ninth, a Capitalist society or a society with a Capitalist mindset is condusive to political corruption- A perfect example is our modern political body. Politicians are backed by corporations and interests through campaign contributions in exchange for political favors. If that isnt corruption I dont know what is. Nearly every single politician in power now has been given "donations" by large outside interests, usually corporations.
Tenth, a Capitalist society gives no regard to the actual avalibity of funds by people- A Capitalist society encourages businesses to do whatever they have to do to sell people what they are offering. Up to and including destruction of a person's private property (Spyware and Malware). People are pressured and swayed into buying, on credit if necessary, something they may not actually need or even want. A Capitalist society fosters this impulse buy reflex where if a person sees something that looks even remotely interesting, they want to buy it. This leads to massive debt and financial problems for the working class
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Sketcher
Born Imperishable
Russia, Canada, and plenty of other governments have failed their people because of some aspect of socialist policy or culture. Leftist culture in the UK is destroying that country. I don't want that over here.
That's not a right I have given to a corporation, sorry.
Whatever. I can say whatever I want and not get arrested for it (since I don't know any national secrets). The only restrictions to freedom of speech in this country are defacto - the liberals in the media, who also happen to be socialists for the most part.
Anything that really is unethical (and not just claimed to be unethical because it is based on private trade) can be produced ethically under capitalism.
So it's sinful to live in prosperity, then? I don't think so. I would wish the freedom, comfort, and prosperity of America on everyone. America has just the right blend of capitalism and government controls* - this is what any and every second and third world country should have.
* Actually, some of those controls should be loosened up, since gambling has to be licensed. It's stupid. It's the tax code - and government control of your life - at work for you.
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Obviously you have never been to the UK. Blair is a thatcherite. The Labour Party has shifted so far right that the Torys can attack them from the Left!
If only you knew what privatisation has done to our Health Service. MRSA spreading in hospitals because contract cleaners do the job on the cheap.
You know that the Militant in Liverpool were the ones to introduce the most significant social housing to this country in the last 30 years. And now in Dagenham we have the rise of fascist sectlets because people have become so disillusioned with no jobs and no new social housing.
If only you knew what has happened to our public transport after privatisation.
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Sketcher
Born Imperishable
I was primarily talking about illegal immigration, political correctness, and the culture going down the toilet. Blair's recent stance seems to be too little too late. The ironic thing about these policies (which socialists seem to espouse) is they will all be undone when the Muslims take over and run things the way they want to.
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Culture is going down the toilet because of Muslims? I don't understand? I went to an Omani exhibition today and smelt beautiful frankinscence and tasted things I'd never heard of and saw the most beautiful clothes. The people were warm and friendly and I had a great time. I have not seen a single Muslim, Asian or Black person attack a white man in my life. But on two occasions I have seen white men use racist abuse against people they perceived to be "Muslims". On one occasion a drunk man in an England shirt told me to "look out for people like him", pointing to a brown-skinned man holding a bouquete of flowers. This obnoxious man was infact shouting that the poor guy could have a bomb under the flowers. It turned out the guy wasn't even Muslim. He was a Sri Lankan Tamil going to Leeds to be reunited with his wife.
I might also point out that my girlfriend is a beautiful Polish immigrant.
You might be right, our culture might be going down the drain. But it is a bigotted attitude towards immigrants, Muslims etc. and one you seemingly share, which is really sending us down the toilet.
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Sketcher
Born Imperishable
It's not going down because of the Muslims, it's going down because of multiculturalism and political correctness. When Mother's Day is banned from a school,
public facilities are hijacked for the sake of a minority, schoolgirls are arrested because they honestly can't understand the foreign language their classmates are using, we start to see the real damage that socialist culture is doing. That's not the half of it, since these issues polarize people and it gives the real racists a platform, creating further division. They of course won't win, since they are the racists. But when they lose and the rest of the culture is sufficiently weak, the Muslims will take over. They've got the numbers, they can do it.
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Maxwell511
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Damned human nature!!! It is the ruin of Communism and Devoted Christian business management alike.
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Maxwell511
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I would comment on this but the contemplation of doing such a thing has already notified the Guards and I am currently being arrested.
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Capitalism creates unequal prosperity, and Socialism creates equal poverty.
I believe in Democracy, Christianity, and Capitalism for America. Democracy gives a choice, Christianity defines the right choice, and Capitalism takes care of those who make the wrong choice.
Many want to blame poverty on Capitalism, but I believe poverty can be related more to a sinful lifestyle than Capitalism.
I believe in Democracy, Christianity, and Capitalism for America. Democracy gives a choice, Christianity defines the right choice, and Capitalism takes care of those who make the wrong choice.
Many want to blame poverty on Capitalism, but I believe poverty can be related more to a sinful lifestyle than Capitalism.
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