The false doctrine of the immortality of the soul (or State of the Dead).
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What does the phrase - "awake to everlasting life" imply?
Unless you are suggesting that a body itself is a living entity without the breath of God, then a body on its own cannot be 'resurrected.' A resurrection is 'to bring back to life.'
The verse does not say anything about bodies. It states that those who are asleep in the dust will awake to everlasting life.
Jon
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Eila
Senior Veteran
Our bodies are what sleep in the dust. Jesus used the term "sleep" to describe the death of those who will rise again. When we are born again our bodies do not receive everlasting life. We need glorified bodies. What, may I ask, do you believe is born again? If you believe your body is born again then why don't you have eternal life? Do you believe you have a spirit?
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29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[f] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
35until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." '[g]
36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far offfor all whom the Lord our God will call." Acts 2:30-39
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
35until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." '[g]
36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far offfor all whom the Lord our God will call." Acts 2:30-39
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We do not go to heaven at death unless we are ressurected, we go to the grave until we are called out of the grave of the second coming, here is a excerpt from what tall73 wrote, it is very straight forward:
"The human soul is not immortal
EZE 18:3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
PS 26:9 Do not take away my soul along with sinners, my life with bloodthirsty men,
PS 116:8 For you, O LORD, have delivered my soul from death, my eyes from tears, my feet from stumbling,
PR 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die.
Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.
MT 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
The soul is the dust + the breath of life. A soul is a human being.
GE 2:4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens-- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground-- 7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. (The KJV renders this soul, the NIV being, to note that what is formed is a person from the components)
We deserve death, but God gives eternal life as a giftconditional immortality
RO 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
2TI 1:8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
RO 6:19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
We do not receive immortality immediately, though we do have assurance of it. This happens at the second coming of Christ, at the resurrection. This is why the second coming is the hope of the New Testament Christians.
EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
2TI 4:1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge,will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
1CO 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1CO 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For theperishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
1TH 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
JN 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
At the resurrection our bodies become like Christs body
1CO 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
JN 20:24 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
(This text describes Jesus post-resurrection body)..."
"Until the resurrection we are truly dead, we sleep in the dust (see above also)
JOB 14:12 so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep
PS 7:4 if I have done evil to him who is at peace with me or without cause have robbed my foe-- then let my enemy pursue and overtake me; let him trample my life to the ground and make me sleep in the dust. Selah
PS 13:3 Look on me and answer, O LORD my God. Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death;
PS 90:5 You sweep men away in the sleep of death; they are like the new grass of the morning-- though in the morning it springs up new, by evening it is dry and withered...."
The dead do not ascend to heaven, (With the exception of Moses)
JUDE 1:8 In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
(This text shows that Moses body was contended for, not just his soul. Moreover, it is clear that this was an unusual event, as there was a dispute over whether this could happen. At this point, Christ had not died yet for the sinner.)
AC 2:29 "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" `The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand 5 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." '
JN 20:15 "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him." Jesus said to her, "Mary." She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher). Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "..."
"The human soul is not immortal
EZE 18:3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
PS 26:9 Do not take away my soul along with sinners, my life with bloodthirsty men,
PS 116:8 For you, O LORD, have delivered my soul from death, my eyes from tears, my feet from stumbling,
PR 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die.
Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.
MT 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
The soul is the dust + the breath of life. A soul is a human being.
GE 2:4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens-- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground-- 7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. (The KJV renders this soul, the NIV being, to note that what is formed is a person from the components)
We deserve death, but God gives eternal life as a giftconditional immortality
RO 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
2TI 1:8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
RO 6:19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
We do not receive immortality immediately, though we do have assurance of it. This happens at the second coming of Christ, at the resurrection. This is why the second coming is the hope of the New Testament Christians.
EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
2TI 4:1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge,will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
1CO 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1CO 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For theperishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
1TH 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
JN 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
At the resurrection our bodies become like Christs body
1CO 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
JN 20:24 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
(This text describes Jesus post-resurrection body)..."
"Until the resurrection we are truly dead, we sleep in the dust (see above also)
JOB 14:12 so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep
PS 7:4 if I have done evil to him who is at peace with me or without cause have robbed my foe-- then let my enemy pursue and overtake me; let him trample my life to the ground and make me sleep in the dust. Selah
PS 13:3 Look on me and answer, O LORD my God. Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death;
PS 90:5 You sweep men away in the sleep of death; they are like the new grass of the morning-- though in the morning it springs up new, by evening it is dry and withered...."
The dead do not ascend to heaven, (With the exception of Moses)
JUDE 1:8 In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
(This text shows that Moses body was contended for, not just his soul. Moreover, it is clear that this was an unusual event, as there was a dispute over whether this could happen. At this point, Christ had not died yet for the sinner.)
AC 2:29 "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" `The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand 5 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." '
JN 20:15 "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him." Jesus said to her, "Mary." She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher). Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "..."
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Eila
Senior Veteran
David did not ascend to heaven when he said that. David was prophesying. You can see that here in Matthew 22
"43 He said to them, How then does David in the Spirit call Him Lord, saying:
44 The LORD said to my Lord,
Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool?[f]
45 If David then calls Him Lord, how is He his Son?
Are you saying that you will not receive the promise of the Holy Spirit until the second coming?
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Eila
Senior Veteran
Why do you use that text? It shows that the soul can live when the body is dead?
The Bible says we were made in the image of God. God is a Spirit. John 4 "
23A time will come, however, indeed it is already here, when the true (genuine) worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth (reality); for the Father is seeking just such people as these as His worshipers.
24God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality)."
So what is born again? What is recreated in Christ Jesus?
Our bodies do sleep in the dust because they will rise again. Our bodies, however, are not who we are. We are spirit beings created in the image of God and we live in a body.
No, Jesus had not ascended to His Father. The Bible says where Jesus was.
Acts 2 "25 For David says concerning Him:
I foresaw the LORD always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence."
The Bible says His soul was in Hades.
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We have the deposit now. But the promise is for all those from Peter's day to the end.
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Eila,
If we look at Genssis 2:7, we see that man is a living soul as a result of God breathing life into us. Not that we have a soul. Now looking at Matthew 10:26-28, we can understand that we should be afraid of those who can kill us now. Why? Because God can restore us or resurrect us when Jesus returns to set up his kingdom. Further, we should be afraid of God since He can totally destroy us in the lake of fire after judgment. When that happens, there is nothing that can bring you back.
If we look at Genssis 2:7, we see that man is a living soul as a result of God breathing life into us. Not that we have a soul. Now looking at Matthew 10:26-28, we can understand that we should be afraid of those who can kill us now. Why? Because God can restore us or resurrect us when Jesus returns to set up his kingdom. Further, we should be afraid of God since He can totally destroy us in the lake of fire after judgment. When that happens, there is nothing that can bring you back.
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Eila
Senior Veteran
The word soul in the Bible can refer to either the whole person or the immaterial part of man that exists apart from the body beyond death. Matthew 10 says "27 Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops. 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." I think this text clearly states that the body can be killed by someone, but the soul cannot.
Luke 20 says "37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.[g] 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him. "
Jesus said that God is the God of the living and that all live to Him.
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Luk 20:37 But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.
Luk 20:38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him."
Jesus is answering a question from the Sadducees about the resurrection. The question is a trap of course, and in fact the Sadducees do not even accept that there was a resurrection. So Jesus points out that there is a resurrection of the dead.
The statement "all are alive to him" must be taken in the context of his earlier statement, ie, "that the dead are raised even Moses showed." In other words, the issue is the resurrection, which the Saducees denied, but Jesus upholds. The Saducees did not believe in an afterlife, resurrection or angels, etc.
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What are some of the scriptures that you consider to show the soul as "the immaterial part of man that exists apart from the body beyond death". Let's see if we can come to an understanding of what a soul is.
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Eila
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Here are some:
2 Corinthians 4 "16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day."
Matthew 26 "41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
3 John "2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers. "
John 3 "5Jesus answered, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, unless a man is born of water and [[a]even] the Spirit, he cannot [ever] enter the kingdom of God.(A)
6What is born of [from] the flesh is flesh [of the physical is physical]; and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not [do not be surprised, astonished] at My telling you, You must all be born anew (from above).
8The wind blows (breathes) where it wills; and though you hear its sound, yet you neither know where it comes from nor where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
2 Corinthians 12 "
2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--was caught up to the third heaven.
3And I know that this man--whether in the body or away from the body I do not know, God knows--
4Was caught up into paradise, and he heard utterances beyond the power of man to put into words, which man is not permitted to utter."
1 Corinthians 2 "11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God."
Zechariah 12 "1 The burden[a] of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him"
Numbers 16 "20 And the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, 21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.
22 Then they fell on their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and You be angry with all the congregation?"
1 Thessalonains 5 "23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Luke 16 "19 There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[d] from the rich mans table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abrahams bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 Then he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.
27 Then he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my fathers house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment. 29 Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent. 31 But he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.
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when about to leave His disciples, Jesus did not tell them that they would soon come to Him. "I go to prepare a place for you," He said. "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself." John 14:2, 3. And Paul tells us, further, that "the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." And he adds: "Comfort one another with these words." I Thessalonians 4:16-18. Some ministers consoled the bereaved friends with the assurance that, however sinful the dead might have been, when he breathed out his life here, he was immeadieately to be received among the angels. Paul points his brethren to the future coming of the Lord, when the fetters of the tomb shall be broken, and the "dead in Christ" shall be raised to eternal life.
Before any can enter the kingdom, they have to be judged before God. All are to be judged according to the things written in the books and this judgment does not take place at death. Mark the words of Paul: "He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead." Acts 17:31. Here the apostle plainly stated that a specified time, then future, had been fixed upon for the judgment of the world.
Jude refers to the same period: "The angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." And, again, he quotes the words of Enoch: "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment upon all." Jude 6, 14, 15. John declares that he "saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: . . . and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books." Revelation 20:12.
But if the dead are already enjoying the bliss of heaven or writhing in the flames of hell, what need of a future judgment, and resurection and redemption at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ?
Before any can enter the kingdom, they have to be judged before God. All are to be judged according to the things written in the books and this judgment does not take place at death. Mark the words of Paul: "He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead." Acts 17:31. Here the apostle plainly stated that a specified time, then future, had been fixed upon for the judgment of the world.
Jude refers to the same period: "The angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." And, again, he quotes the words of Enoch: "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment upon all." Jude 6, 14, 15. John declares that he "saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: . . . and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books." Revelation 20:12.
But if the dead are already enjoying the bliss of heaven or writhing in the flames of hell, what need of a future judgment, and resurection and redemption at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ?
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Eila
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Revelation 20 " 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
This judgement is according to our works. The books referred to here are not the ones that determine our final destination, but ones that determine our degree of reward/punishment. What determines our final destination is whether or not our names were in the book of life.
Phillipians 4 says " 2I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to agree with each other in the Lord. 3Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow,[a] help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life."
Your name being in the book of life does not happen at a future date, but when you were saved.
The Bible says that those who do not believe are condemened already. People start out with the final destination of hell, but when someone comes to God they are transferred out of the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of the Son.
Colossians 1 "2 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood,[c] the forgiveness of sins. "
Praise God we can have assurance of salvation now! Prasie God we can stand before Him in confidence because Jesus has taken our place! Praise God we HAVE BEEN redeemed by the blood of the Lamb!
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I dont really see where this shows an immaterial part of man that exists apart from the body beyond death. If this is going to be understood to show the soul as a separate part of us, then each of us would be two men.
Again, not really showing an immaterial part of man that exists apart from the body beyond death. This is showing that even though we want to be spiritual and avoid temptation and the things of this world, sometimes we yield to that temptation.
The word that soul is translated from in this verse is the Greek word psuche, which typically means breath, life, or that in which there is life. In another meaning, the soul is regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life. Now if the soul is regarded as something that exists apart from the body beyond death, then it would be a separate being, which would mean that we are made up of two people.
Does this really show the soul as an immaterial part of man that exists apart from the body beyond death? If we are to take the word spirit to mean soul, and this word spirit is translated from the Greek word pneuma, then we would have to say that which is born of soul is soul. If you will notice, the word wind that blows in verse 8 is also translated from the word pneuma. So should this have been translated as spirit as well?
Does this really show the soul as an immaterial part of man that exists apart from the body beyond death? No, Paul is telling of someone who was possibly in a trance like state and saw a vision. Or in other words, he had an out of body experience. Now did he really leave his body? I dont think so.
Does this really show the soul as an immaterial part of man that exists apart from the body beyond death? This is more like, no one else knows what you are thinking or might do, because they dont know what is in your heart. Who knows what someone is thinking, but that same person.
Does this really show the soul as an immaterial part of man that exists apart from the body beyond death? In this verse, the word spirit is translated from the Hebrew word ruwach. In this verse it most likely means courage, temper, anger, desire, sorrow, etc.. But basically, it means our emotions.
Does this really show the soul as an immaterial part of man that exists apart from the body beyond death? Again, this word spirit is translated from the Hebrew word ruwach. It can best be described in this verse as meaning that God is who gave everyone life.
Does this really show the soul as an immaterial part of man that exists apart from the body beyond death? It is most likely that spirit is to be taken as mind, and soul is to be taken as life. Basically, this expression spirit and soul and body would mean the whole person. You need to preserve your whole self as being blameless, in other words dont say one thing and do another.
Does this really show the soul as an immaterial part of man that exists apart from the body beyond death? There are a couple of things to note about this parable. It is speaking of bodies not souls. If souls are said to be immaterial, then how could Lazarus have been carried by angels? There is really much more that could be discussed about this particular scripture. In fact, there are probably numerous topics already started on it.
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Eila
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How would you define the Trinity? Are they 3 separate individuals? We were made in the image of God. He is a triune Being as are we. Genesis 1 says "26God said, Let Us [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness, and let them have complete authority over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the [tame] beasts, and over all of the earth, and over everything that creeps upon the earth."
So you interpret the text to mean that our breath can prosper?
What part of you do you believe is born again? What do you think "what is born of the Spirit is spirit" means?
Paul didn't know if the person left the body either, but the fact that he mentioned it stands to reason that it is possible.
What do you believe your "heart" is?
Yes, emotions are part of the soul. However, I do believe this text is not talking about our soul, but our spirit. The are closely connected, but are two different things.
What rational are you using to translate spirit to mind? The Strong's defintion of spirit is
New Testament Greek Definition:
4151 pneuma {pnyoo'-mah}
from 4154; TDNT - 6:332,876; n n
AV - Spirit 111, Holy Ghost 89, Spirit (of God) 13,
Spirit (of the Lord) 5, (My) Spirit 3, Spirit (of truth) 3,
Spirit (of Christ) 2, human (spirit) 49, (evil) spirit 47,
spirit (general) 26, spirit 8, (Jesus' own) spirit 6,
(Jesus' own) ghost 2, misc 21; 385
1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal,
coeternal with the Father and the Son
1a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his
personality and character (the \\Holy\\ Spirit)
1b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work
and power (the Spirit of \\Truth\\)
1c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels,
thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least
all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing,
desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived
as inhabiting the bodies of men
3c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest
angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul
of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
5a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
5b) breath of nostrils or mouth
1 Thessalonians 5:23 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
This text clearly states that we have 3 parts. We are not 3 different people just as God is not 3 different people.
There is no evidence that it is a parable and even if it was a parable why would Jesus teach something incorrect? The story of the rich man and Lazarus is not about their bodies. Their bodies were buried. Who is to say what a spirit looks like? The disciples thought they saw a ghost when they saw a figure of a man.
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To determine "our degree of reward/punishment"??, sorry but Jesus Christ has given me eternal life, if you have some lesser "degree of reward/punishment" it is not from the Gospel of Jesus Christ but from the false doctrines and/or traditions of man......
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Eila
Senior Veteran
Eternal life is not a reward, it is a gift. 2 Corinthians 5 "10For we must all appear and be revealed as we are before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive [his pay] according to what he has done in the body, whether good or evil [considering [c]what his purpose and motive have been, and what he has [d]achieved, been busy with, and given himself and his attention to accomplishing]."
We are rewarded or punished based on our works. The reward is not salvation. Our works don't gain us or keep us in salvation. Salvation is solely by grace through faith. Salvation is a gift.
If Jesus has given you eternal life then why do you believe you cease to exist when you die?
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Eila,
Sorry for the delay in responding.
While we are made in the image of God, we do not have immortality, which is what this discussion had started out to be about.
No, I interpret soul in this verse to mean our life. But again, how does this show that the soul is an immaterial part of man that exists apart from the body beyond death?
We arent really born again until we are resurrected at the return of Jesus. Then we will be changed from corruptible (mortal) to incorruptible (immortal). (15th chapter of 1 Corinthians). We dont have immortality now and arent given immortality until that time.
Did this persons soul leave his body? If so, wouldnt that mean that he had died. And if he had died, then how could Paul have known what he saw. And if he had died, then how could he have returned to his body. And when whatever left, what controlled the body until it got back? Again, this is speaking of someone seeing a vision, nothing else.
Your heart would be where you feel emotions and right from wrong.
What do you believe the spirit is?
If you will notice, several definitions of pneuma deal with how a person feels, thinks, makes decisions, and has emotions. In several other scriptures Paul uses the word spirit as synonymous with mind. 1 Corinthians 5:3, Philippians 1:27, 1 Corinthians 7:34, 2 Corinthians 7:1.
So it is not such a stretch to think of spirit as being the mind.
How would this be incorrect if it were a parable? You say that this is not about their bodies, and that their bodies were buried. If this is about their spirits or souls, which you say is an immaterial part of man that exists apart from the body beyond death, how could Lazarus have had a finger to dip in water, and how could the rich man have had a tongue to have the water cool off. How could a spirit be tormented by physical flames? None of this could happen if their "spirit" or "soul" was immaterial.
I looks like we could go back and forth on what a soul is, but the thing to remember is that nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that we have immortality. We will be given it at the resurrection when Christ returns.
Sorry for the delay in responding.
While we are made in the image of God, we do not have immortality, which is what this discussion had started out to be about.
No, I interpret soul in this verse to mean our life. But again, how does this show that the soul is an immaterial part of man that exists apart from the body beyond death?
We arent really born again until we are resurrected at the return of Jesus. Then we will be changed from corruptible (mortal) to incorruptible (immortal). (15th chapter of 1 Corinthians). We dont have immortality now and arent given immortality until that time.
Did this persons soul leave his body? If so, wouldnt that mean that he had died. And if he had died, then how could Paul have known what he saw. And if he had died, then how could he have returned to his body. And when whatever left, what controlled the body until it got back? Again, this is speaking of someone seeing a vision, nothing else.
Your heart would be where you feel emotions and right from wrong.
What do you believe the spirit is?
If you will notice, several definitions of pneuma deal with how a person feels, thinks, makes decisions, and has emotions. In several other scriptures Paul uses the word spirit as synonymous with mind. 1 Corinthians 5:3, Philippians 1:27, 1 Corinthians 7:34, 2 Corinthians 7:1.
So it is not such a stretch to think of spirit as being the mind.
How would this be incorrect if it were a parable? You say that this is not about their bodies, and that their bodies were buried. If this is about their spirits or souls, which you say is an immaterial part of man that exists apart from the body beyond death, how could Lazarus have had a finger to dip in water, and how could the rich man have had a tongue to have the water cool off. How could a spirit be tormented by physical flames? None of this could happen if their "spirit" or "soul" was immaterial.
I looks like we could go back and forth on what a soul is, but the thing to remember is that nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that we have immortality. We will be given it at the resurrection when Christ returns.
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