The sun doesn`t rise! The earth moves...
And the Catholic Church finally apologized to Galileo...
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The false doctrine of the immortality of the soul (or State of the Dead).
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The sun doesn`t rise! The earth moves...
And the Catholic Church finally apologized to Galileo...Ok, so you want to use the parable of the rich man and Lazarus for an example of what context has to do with the meaning of something? Is that it?
First off lets take the fact that we are speaking of a parable here not a literal event. A parable is a story used to teach a lesson and may or may not have literal applications at all. For instance the parable of the lost sheep is clearly symbolic of the lost people of the world who go out of the fold. So should we take this literally that we should have wool for hair and hoofs for feet or that we should all experience turning away from God? I don't think so. How about the lost coin? Again, should we be made out of metal instead of flesh? Literal application ? ??? Not at all. Symbolic sure.
The question in each parable is the moral lesson being taught not that we should apply each aspect of it to be literal. Lets look at some of the problems you run into if you take this parable literally.
1. Is there any other Biblical support that people in heaven and hell are speaking back and forth from one place to another? Doesn't it say there is a great gulf between them? How does this make any sense in literal terms? Shouldn't there have been some mention of heavenly telephones being used?
2. Can those in heaven actually see those in hell burning? How does that fit into the veses in Revelation that say God will wipe away all tears and that there will be no more crying or pain? What will heaven be like if we spend the ceaseless ages of eternity listening and watching the torture of those who are burning?
3. Do departed souls actually have physical fingers and tongues? I thought the soul here was a spirit not actually physical or flesh. Isn't this an after death experience where only the spirit is there experiencing this?
4. What about Abraham's bossom? Just how large is this bossom going to have to be to hold all the people who will be saved? Does it make any sense to take this to be literal?
So what does this parable actually teach us and why did the Lord use it? The Jews had a common story back then describing death as passing thru a valley of darkness picturing salvation as fleeing to the security of Abraham's bossom and eternal loss as going to destruction. Jesus used this story to mimic that story and to teach three lessons.
1. The Jews beleived riches were a sign of God's favor and poverty a sign of His displeasure. In this story the rich man who the Jews thought should have been blessed of God ends up in hell and the poor man in Abraham's bossom or saved. So Jesus reversed the expected outcome the pharsee's believed in.
2. Jesus taught by this parable that there is no second chance after death via the symbology of the great gulf fixed between heaven and hell. The decisions made in this life can have eternal consequences and once you die your eternal fate is sealed for life or death.
3. Jesus pointed out here that if the Pharasee's rejected the clear teachings of God's word regarding salvation they would also reject such a mighty and supernatural miracle as one rising from the dead.
Sure enough not too long after this , Jesus actually resurrected one named Lazarus and the Jews sought to kill Him even more and even Lazarus too. So the prediction of this parable came true.
The context is that Christ was speaking directly to the wily pharasee's in all of these parables and all of them had symbolic messages that were unmistakebly pointed directly at them. This parable or none of the others are to be taken literally. The only time we can take parables to have literal applications is if Jesus says so shall it be at the end of the world. He never said that here at all.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
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Eila
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Yes, as God the creator all souls are in His hand. You are assuming that dying=ceasing to exist. Even the body does not cease to exist at death. The context of this chapter is that each person is responsible for their own life and the sins of their father will not be on their head.
The text says "18 But we will bless the LORD
From this time forth and forevermore" Your interpretation of forevermore stops at the grave?
1 Thessalonians 4 says "14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him through Jesus those who have fallen asleep [in death]."
The text has God bringing the saints with Him.
Also, these texts also support that God is bringing his saints with Him.
Colossians 3 "For [as far as this world is concerned] you have died, and your [new, real] life is hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, Who is our life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in [the splendor of His] glory."
Jude 14 " 14It was of these people, moreover, that Enoch in the seventh [generation] from Adam prophesied when he said, Behold, the Lord comes with His myriads of holy ones (ten thousands of His saints)"
Zechariah 14 "4And His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from the east to the west by a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north and half of it toward the south. 5And you shall flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal, and you shall flee as you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and the Lord my [Zechariah's] God shall come, and all the holy ones [saints and angels] with Him."
What happens when Jesus comes?
1 Corinthians 15:" 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?
We receive our glorified bodies. Corruptible/mortal bodies will be no more.
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Ok, so you want to use the parable of the rich man and Lazarus for an example of what context has to do with the meaning of something? Is that it?
First off lets take the fact that we are speaking of a parable here not a literal event. A parable is a story used to teach a lesson and may or may not have literal applications at all. For instance the parable of the lost sheep is clearly symbolic of the lost people of the world who go out of the fold. So should we take this literally that we should have wool for hair and hoofs for feet or that we should all experience turning away from God? I don't think so. How about the lost coin? Again, should we be made out of metal instead of flesh? Literal application ? ??? Not at all. Symbolic sure.
The question in each parable is the moral lesson being taught not that we should apply each aspect of it to be literal. Lets look at some of the problems you run into if you take this parable literally.
1. Is there any other Biblical support that people in heaven and hell are speaking back and forth from one place to another? Doesn't it say there is a great gulf between them? How does this make any sense in literal terms? Shouldn't there have been some mention of heavenly telephones being used?
2. Can those in heaven actually see those in hell burning? How does that fit into the veses in Revelation that say God will wipe away all tears and that there will be no more crying or pain? What will heaven be like if we spend the ceaseless ages of eternity listening and watching the torture of those who are burning?
3. Do departed souls actually have physical fingers and tongues? I thought the soul here was a spirit not actually physical or flesh. Isn't this an after death experience where only the spirit is there experiencing this?
4. What about Abraham's bossom? Just how large is this bossom going to have to be to hold all the people who will be saved? Does it make any sense to take this to be literal?
So what does this parable actually teach us and why did the Lord use it? The Jews had a common story back then describing death as passing thru a valley of darkness picturing salvation as fleeing to the security of Abraham's bossom and eternal loss as going to destruction. Jesus used this story to mimic that story and to teach three lessons.
1. The Jews beleived riches were a sign of God's favor and poverty a sign of His displeasure. In this story the rich man who the Jews thought should have been blessed of God ends up in hell and the poor man in Abraham's bossom or saved. So Jesus reversed the expected outcome the pharsee's believed in.
2. Jesus taught by this parable that there is no second chance after death via the symbology of the great gulf fixed between heaven and hell. The decisions made in this life can have eternal consequences and once you die your eternal fate is sealed for life or death.
3. Jesus pointed out here that if the Pharasee's rejected the clear teachings of God's word regarding salvation they would also reject such a mighty and supernatural miracle as one rising from the dead.
Sure enough not too long after this , Jesus actually resurrected one named Lazarus and the Jews sought to kill Him even more and even Lazarus too. So the prediction of this parable came true.
The context is that Christ was speaking directly to the wily pharasee's in all of these parables and all of them had symbolic messages that were unmistakebly pointed directly at them.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
It makes absolutely no sense for Christ to present a false teaching on a matter so important as consciousness after death in order to teach a moral lesson. The moral lesson you speak of could have been taught any of a number of other ways.
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Eila
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First off lets take the fact that we are speaking of a parable here not a literal event. A parable is a story used to teach a lesson and may or may not have literal applications at all. For instance the parable of the lost sheep is clearly symbolic of the lost people of the world who go out of the fold. So should we take this literally that we should have wool for hair and hoofs for feet or that we should all experience turning away from God? I don't think so. How about the lost coin? Again, should we be made out of metal instead of flesh? Literal application ? ??? Not at all. Symbolic sure.
If this is a parable why did Jesus use specific names? Why would Jesus use error to teach something of a symbolic nature? Every parable Jesus told was something that could actually happen. A man could have a lost sheep. A woman could have a lost coin.
1. Is there any other Biblical support that people in heaven and hell are speaking back and forth from one place to another? Doesn't it say there is a great gulf between them? How does this make any sense in literal terms? Shouldn't there have been some mention of heavenly telephones being used?
It can be literal if you understand Hades.
Hades is not hell. The bosom of Abraham is not heaven. Abraham was not in heaven and Lazarus was not in heaven. No one left the bosom of Abraham until Jesus set them free. Ephesians 4 says "8 Therefore He says:
“ When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)"
Where do you see mention of hell or heaven in these texts?
Who is to say what a spirit looks like? When the disciples saw Jesus in the form of a man they thought he was a ghost. No, the body is not there in Hades.
Abraham's bosom is not going to hold all the people who will be saved. Abraham's bosom was a compartment of Hades that Jesus set free.
The greek word for bosom also refers to a garment used for holding things. They were in a holding place until Jesus paid the price for their sins.
You are assuming this is a parable. Lazarus is named specifically and the rich man is referred to as a "certain rich man". Even if this was a parable, all other parables are about things that can happen. Based on what you say, Jesus used gross error to teach truth.
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You missed the entire thrust of this. Christ wasn't teaching consciousness after death here. He was mimicing an old traditional story the Jews had to meet them on their own turf so to speak. The lessons taught in this are stark and clearly against the pharasee's and what they believed. What happens now is we come along 2,000 years later with our limited scope of things pertaining to their culture and try to apply literal applications to somthing that couldn't have been taken as literal even back then. BTW, He did teach the real issues on consciousness after death in John 11:11 which stands in direct contradiction to this if you take it to have literal applications.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
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Eila
Senior Veteran
I agree! When the disciples thought He was a ghost He didn't correct them telling them that their souls sleep. If the people of the day had an incorrect view on the mortality of the soul then why would Jesus propagate it with this story? Wouldn't He correct them or at least not contribute to such error?
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I get what you are saying. It is a lengthy attempt to try and explain away a story that presents serious problems for your theology. However it still makes no sense for Christ to set up a scene with consciousness after death, one situation for the righteous, one for the wicked, if in reality these individuals wwould be nothing more than rotting corpses. Join this with the many other verses that teach consciousness after death and we have sound theology as opposed to the weak theology that makes it`s case with ealier, dimmer revelation in the poetry of Psalms, Job, and Eccelsiastes.
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What does using specific names have to do with it? I see no slam dunk point of this making the parable a literal event or to represent literal things.
First off I don't see heaven or hell in these verses but you are switching your belief system if you are going to take this parable literally. Remember the rich man is in a place of burning and begging for Lazarus to give him a drop of water on his tongue to quench the torture of the flames. I don't know about you but that sounds like hell to me. So are you saying that there will be a place of burning we go to before God burns the sinners at the end of time, yet this isn't hell yet? I'm sorry but your are confusing me here. Where do you get that from the Bible? Secondly, remember the captives being led away at His ascencion were most likely those who got resurrected at His resurrection spoken of in Matthew.
Then how do you explain the fingers and the tongue? Those are physical parts of the body. The fact they thought they saw a ghost when they saw Christ on the water is easy to understand. Why?, I'd say because they had never seen someone walking on water before.
This is almost funny my friend. Your imagination runs wild when you make up assumptions to fit a false belief. If any part of this parable is symbolic then the whole thing can be and as such does not teach a literal application of life after death.
I'm saying He mimiced an old story the Jews were familiar with. There is no reason to think this wasn't a parable, It began exactly as the one before it and it was a story used to teach the pharasee's a lesson.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
p.s. I don't think you are convinced here and thats ok but again you have some major contradictions in the Bible to accept this false belief system.
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I've made Bible study my passion for the last several years. I used to be agnostic and came to believe and accept the Bible teachings without prejudice from any denomination. I have never found a slam dunk case in any scripture where it teaches we have consciousness after death at all until the Lord wakes us up at the resurrection. This parable certainly isn't one. The entire Bible teaches we sleep after we die.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
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With all due respect friend your claim that you have studied the bible for years, without any input from the Adventists I suppose...
, is no basis to pull rank here. You and others of this minset confuse physical death with the non-material part of man of which the bible testifies to emphatically. Such verses have been presented repeatedly on this thread and what attempts you have made to deal with them have been left wanting.
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Eila
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Well, if a person is born again they will not go to Hades because Paul says that the be absent with the body is to be present with the Lord.
Hades has been mistranslated in the Bible as hell. I'm curious as to what you believe Hades to be?
Hades is not the same as the lake of fire - Gehenna.
Hades and Gehenna are not the same thing. We see here in Revelation 20:14 that Hades will be thrown into Gehenna.
"13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Here are some texts that mention Hades:
Matthew 11:23 "23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day."
Matthew 16 "18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it"
Luke 16 "22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abrahams bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 Then he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.
27 Then he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my fathers house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment. 29 Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent. 31 But he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.
Acts 2 " 27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.
29 Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption."
Revelation 1 "18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death."
The Bible specifically says Jesus' soul was not left in Hades and that He now had the keys to Hades.
They thought Jesus was a ghost after His resurrection too. Who is to say what a spirit looks like? God is a spirit, yet He is described thoughout the Bible as having specific body parts. We were made in the image of God and God is a Spirit. Why couldn't a spirit have something that looked like fingers and a tongue?
You assume that the bosom of Abraham was not the name of a place.
What evidence do you have that this is an old story the Jews were familar with?
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With all due respect friend your claim that you have studied the bible for years, without any input from the Adventists I suppose...
Quite frankly , it takes a wide range of imagination and twisting the scripture to support this idea of the immortality of the soul from the Bible. I am still waiting for some good evidence to convince me of it. I haven't always been adventist. I have been baptists and many other faiths as well. I used to believe this false teaching. I came to understand the real truth by myself not some denominational influence. I came to this truth thru the study of the Bible long before I became an adventist. If I could find a church that stays closer to the Bible than the adventists I would certainly go there. I'm certainly not married to any denomination.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
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I have to go for now folks I will take this discussion back up tomorrow. The evidence of the story I was speaking of is from the writings of the Antiquities of the Jews on cultures and traditions. I don't have the exact reference in front of me but it's a findable thing.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
God Bless
Jim Larmore
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Eila
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Thanks for the info. I didn't realize that existed. I found a link to it here: http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/josephus_on_hades.htm
It is about Josephes's Discourse to the Greeks on Hades.
Jim, I don't see how that shows things are in error though. On the other hand, I think it confirms what the Bible says.
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That is not what the Bible says. You have left out part of the verse. Let's look at it in it's entirity. In 2 Cor 5:8 the Bible says "We are confident I say and willing RATHER to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." Not To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The wording is significant I think. We should all be willing to be with the Lord yet Paul makes it clear in some verses just previous when this will happen. 2 Cor 4:14 "Knowing that He which raised up the Lord Jesus Christ shall raise up us also by Jesus and shall present us with you." You see Paul knew when the reward would come and that is at the end of time at the resurrection not at death. 2 Tim 4:8 also tells us this "Henceforth there is laid for me a crown of righteousness which the Lord the righteous judge shall give me at that day and not me only but unto all them also that love His appearing ".
Additionally, Jesus told us in the parable of the sower in Matt 13:39 that the harvest of the earth "is in the end of the world" not at death.
The main translation of the world Hades is the grave.
Go on down just a little further and see what the Bible says, Heres the original language, "For David ascended NOT to the heavens says but He said the Lord to the Lord of me Sit at the right of me until I place the enemies of you footstool to the feet of you." Here the Bible clearly tells us the man who was close to the heart of God is not ascended yet but resting in the grave and waiting for the resurrection.
Amen sister and praise God for this truth for without it we would be lost. Paul says if Christ be not risen we are still in our sins.
The problem is your belief bases it's foundation on a separate entity called an immortal soul that exists in the spirit world after death. They are a spirit and have no physical substance until they are re-united with their bodies at the resurrection, isn't this right? If so then it makes no sense that a spirit would be complaining of burning tongues and fingers in this place of torture. BTW, you never did answer my question concerning Ezek 18:4, why not?
God Bless
Jim Larmore
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Eila
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It was my undestanding that you didn't believe you could be absent from the body. Don't you believe you go to heaven in a body?
The Strong's definition of "to be absent" refers to going somewhere:
to be absent
New Testament Greek Definition:
1553 ekdemeo {ek-day-meh'-o}
from a compound of 1537 and 1218; TDNT - 2:63,149; v
AV - be absent 3; 3
1) to go abroad
2) emigrate, depart
3) to be or live abroad
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Eila
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2 Timothy 4 "
6For I am already about to be sacrificed [my life is about to be poured out as a drink offering]; the time of my [spirit's] release [from the body] is at hand and I will soon go free.
7I have fought the good (worthy, honorable, and noble) fight, I have finished the race, I have kept (firmly held) the faith.
8[As to what remains] henceforth there is laid up for me the [victor's] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me and recompense me on that [great] day--and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and yearned for and welcomed His appearing (His return)."
I believe the reward seat of Christ is after He returns. Christ cannot recompense us for salvation.
Matthew 13
"
38The field is the world, and the good seed means the children of the kingdom; the darnel is the children of the evil one,
39And the enemy who sowed it is the devil. The harvest is the close and consummation of the age, and the reapers are angels.
40Just as the darnel (weeds resembling wheat) is gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the close of the age.
41The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of offense [[m]persons by whom others are drawn into error or sin] and all who do iniquity and act wickedly,
42And will cast them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and wailing and grinding of teeth.
43Then will the righteous (those who are upright and in right standing with God) shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him who has ears [to hear] be listening, and let him [n]consider and perceive and understand by hearing."
This is referring to the end of time. The harvest of souls is now.
Luke 10 "1NOW AFTER this the Lord chose and appointed seventy others and sent them out ahead of Him, two by two, into every town and place where He Himself was about to come (visit).
2And He said to them, The harvest indeed is abundant [there is much ripe grain], but the farmhands are few. Pray therefore the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.
3Go your way; behold, I send you out like lambs into the midst of wolves."
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Christ cannot do this until he returns, correct?
You say that the harvest of souls is now. I would tend to agree in that there are those who are ready (ripe) to hear the message of Christ's coming kingdom and accept him as Lord. The harvest is of those who haven't heard the message.
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