He Shall Subdue Three kings

GraftMeIn · Aug 25, 2002

First let me start off by saying, I'm not making any claims here, about who the antichrist is or anything. This is just something that popped into my mind this morning, and I thought it seemed kind of interesting.

Daniel
7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Subdue
1. To subjugate : vanquish
2. To bring under control
3. To make less intense

subjugate
To compele to submit : conquer

Bush has publicly denounced the following people as leaders.

Saddam Hussein
Yasser Arafat
Robert Mugabe

Now just because he denounced them doesn't mean he will be the one who subdues them, or that they will even be subdued. But it did make me stop and think about things a bit. Has he denounced any other leaders, that I might be missing? I don't realy count Bin Laden because I don't think he was actually an official leader.

It would be interesting to see what others think about about this.

 

 

\o/ · Aug 25, 2002

Those prophecies have already been fulfilled.

Patmosman_sga · Aug 25, 2002

The "ruler" in question is said to arise out of the fourth kingdom, namely, the Roman Empire. Neither Bush, Hussein, Arafat or Mugabe were around at that time.

ladylove · Aug 25, 2002

No, no this ruler spoken about in Daniel will eventually rule what Rome once controlled in history i.e., the nations around the Metiterainain (sp?) sea. He will come from due North of the nation of Israel so then it is obviously NOT Bush. Do you study prophecy? This should be something you should know if you do.

GraftMeIn · Aug 25, 2002

I'm looking more at who Bush denounced as rulers than I am at the fact that he was the one who denounced them.

Patmosman_sga · Aug 25, 2002

Originally posted by ladylove
No, no this ruler spoken about in Daniel will eventually rule what Rome once controlled in history i.e., the nations around the Metiterainain (sp?) sea. He will come from due North of the nation of Israel so then it is obviously NOT Bush. Do you study prophecy? This should be something you should know if you do.

There are only four kingdoms spoken of in Daniel's prophecy: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. Of a "revived" Roman Empire some time in the future, there is no such prophecy anywhere in Scripture. That is a Johnny-come-lately invention of the dispensationalists (ca. 1832, popularized in 1909 with the Scofield Reference Bible), who invent a "fifth" kingdom out of whole cloth by taking particular attributes of the fourth kingdom (Rome) and claiming they describe a "yet future" fifth kingdom. If Daniel intended to convey a vision about five earthly kingdoms, he would have said so. Instead, he says emphatically that there will be four kingdoms (Daniel 2:40,7:17).

The only reason for taking such liberties with the literal meaning of the Scriptures (inventing a fifth kingdom where the Scripture speaks of only four) is to fabricate Scriptural support for a position which has no such support.

Patmosman_sga · Aug 25, 2002

Originally posted by GraftMeIn
I'm looking more at who Bush denounced as rulers than I am at the fact that he was the one who denounced them.

This is an example of why dispensationalism is perhaps the most dangerous of modern-day heresies. It fosters an irrational, paranoid fear of earthly rulers, who are but mere men.

rollinTHUNDER · Aug 26, 2002

Originally posted by Patmosman_sga

There are only four kingdoms spoken of in Daniel's prophecy: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. Of a "revived" Roman Empire some time in the future, there is no such prophecy anywhere in Scripture. That is a Johnny-come-lately invention of the dispensationalists (ca. 1832, popularized in 1909 with the Scofield Reference Bible), who invent a "fifth" kingdom out of whole cloth by taking particular attributes of the fourth kingdom (Rome) and claiming they describe a "yet future" fifth kingdom. If Daniel intended to convey a vision about five earthly kingdoms, he would have said so. Instead, he says emphatically that there will be four kingdoms (Daniel 2:40,7:17).

The only reason for taking such liberties with the literal meaning of the Scriptures (inventing a fifth kingdom where the Scripture speaks of only four) is to fabricate Scriptural support for a position which has no such support.

More of the blind leading the blind. We can clearly see that this one who claims to be one of us, has no faith in the end times that this forum promotes, like the rapture and second coming of our Lord. Watch out that you are not carried away by men such as this one. He is attempting to spread his lack of faith to the new believers. He is clearly a scoffer.

Jude 17-19 - "But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. (18)They said to you, "In the last days there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires. (19)These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the spirit."

He is blind. He can't discern spiritual things, no more than a lost man can find his way through spiritual things. If his human mind can't see it, he scoffs at it. He has also been warned many times not to post on this forum. He also made the claim of being raptured already, but when questioned about it, he didn't even know what the rapture was or is. He is just a scoffer, plain and simple, and very boring too. His opinions don't belong on this forum, for he holds to a form of Preterism. They don't care about your rules, the come to divide the brethren. Preachin' nothing but rubbish.

Patmosman_sga · Aug 26, 2002

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER

More of the blind leading the blind. We can clearly see that this one who claims to be one of us, has no faith in the end times that this forum promotes, like the rapture and second coming of our Lord. Watch out that you are not carried away by men such as this one. He is attempting to spread his lack of faith to the new believers. He is clearly a scoffer.

Jude 17-19 - "But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. (18)They said to you, "In the last days there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires. (19)These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the spirit."

He is blind. He can't discern spiritual things, no more than a lost man can find his way through spiritual things. If his human mind can't see it, he scoffs at it. He has also been warned many times not to post on this forum. He also made the claim of being raptured already, but when questioned about it, he didn't even know what the rapture was or is. He is just a scoffer, plain and simple, and very boring too. His opinions don't belong on this forum, for he holds to a form of Preterism. They don't care about your rules, the come to divide the brethren. Preachin' nothing but rubbish.

Consider the source and move on. Personal attacks, name-calling and character assassination really don't concern me all that much, coming from the likes of this fellow. Another example of the dangers of dispensationalism.

rollinTHUNDER · Aug 26, 2002

Originally posted by Patmosman_sga

Consider the source and move on. Personal attacks, name-calling and character assassination really don't concern me all that much, coming from the likes of this fellow. Another example of the dangers of dispensationalism.

Not so fast big boy. Instead of trying to disprove what many here have faith in, let's here your beliefs. Tell us Preacher, what do you believe about the :

[1] Rapture

[2] Second Coming

[3] Mark of the Beast

[4] The day and hour that no man knows

[5] Son of Perdition/ Man of lawlessness

Your view will either fit into the views of this forum, or your an outsider, one who seeks to divide us. I also have a mind to come and visit your little church. Where in Georgia are you?? I am in near by Florida. I could one day come to your church and see if the spirit is there, and report back what I saw there. Don't worry, I won't try to bust up your good fellowship like you are trying to do here. Have faith, fear not!!!

 

mcfly1960 · Aug 26, 2002

At the fall of the Roman Empire, 3 barbarian invaders successively ruled the Western empire, the Vandals, the Herulii, and the Ostrogoths.  Papal Rome supported their successive overthrows and sanctioned the revival and the establishment of the political entity that would become known as the "Holy Roman Empire" along with its emperors.  These 3 barbarian kingdoms could be the 3 horns that were plucked up by their roots. 

Since the uprooting of these 3 kings, some have suggested 7 major revivals of the Holy Roman Empire sanctioned by Papal Rome:

Justinian, Charlemagne, Otto the Great, Charles V (the first Hapsburg), Napolean, Mussolini, (the 7th still future).

GraftMeIn · Aug 26, 2002

Originally posted by Patmosman_sga

This is an example of why dispensationalism is perhaps the most dangerous of modern-day heresies. It fosters an irrational, paranoid fear of earthly rulers, who are but mere men.

Why should anyone be afraid of the leaders? I have nothing to fear with God on my side. We need to worry about those who aren't saved though. And those who are asleep in the spirit.

Why do you seek so hard to hide what the Bible makes clear is going to happen?

 

ladylove · Aug 26, 2002

Okay, this can get real intense here because:

1) I am not a dispensationalist (I am of the pre-wrath persuasion which I find to be the most biblically accurate this far)

2) This Postmo poster has jumped to far-out conclusions that are simply not valid in my prior post.

Graft, I KNOW without a doubt that Hussein and Arafat would not be the anti-christ (although very evil men indeed) I don't know who this Mugabe fellow is, maybe you could enlighten me, please? Is he from the North of Israel?

GraftMeIn · Aug 26, 2002

ladylove, I'm not looking at who the antichrist is so much, as I am the ones who have been denounced as leaders. We have no way of knowing who the antichrist will be. But this just kind of makes one wonder if those who were denounced by Bush will be the ones who are subdued, and if the one who does subdue them, might be the one who restores peace to the middle east for a short period of time.

Mugabe is forcing white farmers in Zimbabwe off of their land, with no compenstation. If they refuse to leave they are thrown into prison.

ladylove · Aug 26, 2002

Originally posted by GraftMeIn
ladylove, I'm not looking at who the antichrist is so much, as I am the ones who have been denounced as leaders. We have no way of knowing who the antichrist will be. But this just kind of makes one wonder if those who were denounced by Bush will be the ones who are subdued, and if the one who does subdue them, might be the one who restores peace to the middle east for a short period of time.

Mugabe is forcing white farmers in Zimbabwe off of their land, with no compenstation. If they refuse to leave they are thrown into prison.

This Mugabe doesn't sound too great either.  However, I will disagree with you about who the antichrist will be.  I have made my own personal study by some very knowledgable folks, but I will keep my conclusion to myself for who it would be would be too shocking to you!!! I won't know that I am 100% correct until God allows the anti-christ his FULL power and that only for a little while. 

At any rate, back to the three kings, no.  Those whom Bush denounced are not the 3 kings Daniel speaks of because those kingdoms that anti-christ will subdue are NORTH of Israel.  Now those leaders and their countries may very will indeed be part of the 10 nation conferedercy that will make up anti-christ's full power base, but for now, it is not those three leaders you have suggested, IMO. 

Happy studying!!

 

GraftMeIn · Aug 26, 2002

I was making no claims about who the antichrist will be, so there's really nothing to disagree about there.

The book of Daniel doesn't say who the three kings will be, or where they are from, it only says He shall subdue three kings. It doesn't give any reference as to who they will be though.

ladylove · Aug 26, 2002

Your correct, Daniel does not say which three kings they will be. But Daniel says anti-christ is to come from the north of Israel. Then it would make good sense that it is likely that anti-christ will have subdued three kingdoms in the surrounding areas of the Caspian sea. If memory serves me right. That was my point that I didn't make very well previously.  Sorry.

Only time will tell if this is the case...

GraftMeIn · Aug 26, 2002

Yes ladylove, Only time will tell. Things are getting kind of interesting though. And we can certainly see signs of the season drawing near.
May we all learn to trust, and rely on God, and him only as our guiding light.

Patmosman_sga · Aug 26, 2002

Originally posted by ladylove
Okay, this can get real intense here because:

1) I am not a dispensationalist (I am of the pre-wrath persuasion which I find to be the most biblically accurate this far) 

The "pre-wrath persuasion" is dispensationalism. Only dispensationalists place themselves in pre-, mid-, or post-wrath or trib camps (actually "pre-wrath" is somewhat akin to "mid-trib"). The covenental/incarnational view does not make such distinctions because it treats eschatology from a more holistic perspective.

ladylove · Aug 26, 2002

Originally posted by Patmosman_sga

The "pre-wrath persuasion" is dispensationalism. Only dispensationalists place themselves in pre-, mid-, or post-wrath or trib camps (actually "pre-wrath" is somewhat akin to "mid-trib"). The covenental/incarnational view does not make such distinctions because it treats eschatology from a more holistic perspective.

That sounds real new age, pal.  But, okay, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, care to explain what the covenental, holistic perspective is?  I want verses in context from Scripture for this to be valid.  If you can't back up your position, you are not worth my time.  This had better be good.  *arms folded*

He Shall Subdue Three kings

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