The false doctrine of the immortality of the soul (or State of the Dead).

Jimlarmore said:

Believing in an immortal soul calls into question huge chunks of clear and concise scripture which is the same as saying there is much contradiction in the Bible. How do you reckoncile Ecc 9:5 or Ps 115:17 or John 11:11, or Dan 12:1,? I could literally give over a hundred texts that makes it clear that the soul is not immortal or that after we die we have an ongoing intelligence existing past death.

Clearly, the texts you have given to support your side do not indeed say what you are trying to make them say.

God Bless you my friend,

Jim Larmore

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There is no contradiction in the Bible.

Eccl 9:5 "5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun."

I think the context of this text is clearly describing things that happen under the sun. After death one is not conscious of things that happen on the earth.

Psalm 115 says "16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD’s; But the earth He has given to the children of men. 17 The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor any who go down into silence. 18 But we will bless the LORD From this time forth and forevermore."

This psalm is about the wicked who worship idols and the righteous who worship God. When the wicked die they do not praise God, but the righteous dead do. The wicked dead go down in silence (not praising God). Notice that verse 18 says we (the righteous) will bless the Lord from this time forth and forevermore.

John 11:11 says "11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

Here we see Jesus calling things that are not as though they were as referenced in Romans 4"16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;"

Jesus was calling Lazarus alive even though he was dead.

Daniel 12:1-2 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Our bodies are what sleep in the dust of the earth. Our bodies are what return to dust. I believe this texts refers to us receiving our glorified bodies.

Eila said:

There is no contradiction in the Bible.

Eccl 9:5 "5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun."

I think the context of this text is clearly describing things that happen under the sun. After death one is not conscious of things that happen on the earth.

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How do you support this belief from scriptures? Are you saying that somehow God is blocking those in heaven from knowing what is going on down here? Again, how do you support that from scriptures?

Psalm 115 says "16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD’s; But the earth He has given to the children of men. 17 The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor any who go down into silence. 18 But we will bless the LORD From this time forth and forevermore."

This psalm is about the wicked who worship idols and the righteous who worship God. When the wicked die they do not praise God, but the righteous dead do. The wicked dead go down in silence (not praising God). Notice that verse 18 says we (the righteous) will bless the Lord from this time forth and forevermore.

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There is no distinction of the wicked or righteous dead associated with this verse at all. There is another texts in Psalms that says in that very day our thought perish ( Ps 146:4 ) Again, I hate to say this because it sound deminutive but you are assuming things based on prior beliefs so they fit the paradigm.

John 11:11 says "11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

Here we see Jesus calling things that are not as though they were as referenced in Romans 4"16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;"

Jesus was calling Lazarus alive even though he was dead.

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No he didn't call him alive Christ clearly told the disciples after they got confused by Christ saying that death was like a sleep that Lazarus was dead , John 11:14. Your dancing around the mule berry bush above and not making a whole lot of sense, sorry.

Daniel 12:1-2 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Our bodies are what sleep in the dust of the earth. Our bodies are what return to dust. I believe this texts refers to us receiving our glorified bodies.

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The phraseology is interpretative of those dead that would awaken to a state (of everlasting life or shame ) that they didn't have or was unaware of before when they were asleep. This truth makes no sense in an immortal soul scenario where they would already be experiencing that joy in heaven. Vice versa for the wicked dead and shame.

You can read a similar text in John 5:28 , except here the words are that all would hear His voice and come forth. This is clear language interpreted to mean that they couldn't hear His voice before . The resurrection is new life coming forth from the grave with glorified bodies. There is no place in the Bible that tells us that the Lord will re-unite our souls with our bodies at the resurrrection. This is a false assumption. John 5:28 also makes it clear that every human being who has ever lived ,wicked or righteous, will come back to life at some point in the future.

Another thing that you must think about is this. If Christ re-unites the souls with their bodies at the resurrection what has been burning all this time in Hell-fire with the wicked? The Bible makes it clear what will burn in Hell-fire and that is the body which is a soul. Does it make any sense that the Lord after torturing souls for thousands of years will bring them out of the flames of hell and re-unite them with their old resurrected bodies just to put them back to the flame again? Where do you believe hell is burning right now?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jimlarmore said:

How do you support this belief from scriptures? Are you saying that somehow God is blocking those in heaven from knowing what is going on down here? Again, how do you support that from scriptures?

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I think Ecclesiastes points that out. I think when we are in the presence of God the things on the earth will be quite dim. I'm not married to that idea though. Maybe we will know what goes on in the earth, maybe we won't. The text could very well be referring to people on earth not remembering the dead as seen in these other places in Ecclesiastes:

Ecc 1 " 11 There is no remembrance of men of old,
and even those who are yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow."

Ecc 2 "16 For the wise man, like the fool, will not be long remembered; in days to come both will be forgotten. Like the fool, the wise man too must die!"

Ecc 8 "10 Then I saw the wicked buried, who had come and gone from the place of holiness, and they were forgotten in the city where they had so done. This also is vanity. "

Jimlarmore said:

There is no distinction of the wicked or righteous dead associated with this verse at all. There is another texts in Psalms that says in that very day our thought perish ( Ps 146:4 ) Again, I hate to say this because it sound deminutive but you are assuming things based on prior beliefs so they fit the paradigm.

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I'll quote the entire Psalm here:

Psalm 115

1 Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us,
But to Your name give glory,
Because of Your mercy,
Because of Your truth.
2 Why should the Gentiles say,
“So where is their God?”

3 But our God is in heaven;
He does whatever He pleases.
4 Their idols are silver and gold,
The work of men’s hands.
5 They have mouths, but they do not speak;
Eyes they have, but they do not see;
6 They have ears, but they do not hear;
Noses they have, but they do not smell;
7 They have hands, but they do not handle;
Feet they have, but they do not walk;
Nor do they mutter through their throat.
8 Those who make them are like them;
So is everyone who trusts in them."

Here we have the Psalmist describing the God that the Israelites worship and the idols that Gentiles worship.

" 9 O Israel, trust in the LORD;
He is their help and their shield.
10 O house of Aaron, trust in the LORD;
He is their help and their shield.
11 You who fear the LORD, trust in the LORD;
He is their help and their shield.

12 The LORD has been mindful of us;
He will bless us;
He will bless the house of Israel;
He will bless the house of Aaron.
13 He will bless those who fear the LORD,
Both small and great.

14 May the LORD give you increase more and more,
You and your children.
15 May you be blessed by the LORD,
Who made heaven and earth."

The Psalmist goes on to describe the blessings of serving the Lord.

"16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD’s;
But the earth He has given to the children of men.
17 The dead do not praise the LORD,
Nor any who go down into silence."

Here we find "the dead" talked about. These dead do not praise the Lord. Those who go down in silence do not praise the Lord. But who does?

"18 But we will bless the LORD
From this time forth and forevermore.

Praise the LORD!"

The people of God are the ones who praise Him, not just now but forever. It is the wicked - the ones who worship idols who go down in silence without praising God. The people of God are exluded from "any who go down in silence".


Regarding Psalms 146

"1 Praise the LORD!

Praise the LORD, O my soul!
2 While I live I will praise the LORD;
I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.

3 Do not put your trust in princes,
Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His spirit departs, he returns to his earth;
In that very day his plans perish.
5 Happy is he who has the God of Jacob for his help,
Whose hope is in the LORD his God,
6 Who made heaven and earth,
The sea, and all that is in them;
Who keeps truth forever,"

This psalm is talking about who we should trust. Should we trust people on earth who one day die? The plans that the person has to do on earth perish. If you are trusting in a person instead of God where will you be someday if they die and the plans they have for you are gone?

Jimlarmore said:

No he didn't call him alive Christ clearly told the disciples after they got confused by Christ saying that death was like a sleep that Lazarus was dead , John 11:14. Your dancing around the mule berry bush above and not making a whole lot of sense, sorry.

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John 11 "11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead."

Jesus was not instructing people that Lazarus' soul was sleeping. When sleep is used for death is it talking about the body that will rise from the dead.

Do you really think that Jesus is instructing his disciples here about the nature of man when He had plenty of opportunity to correct their errors when they thought He was a ghost on 2 separate occasions? Why would Jesus teach on the rich man and Lazarus if He was concerned that people are not viewing the nature of man correctly?

Eila said:

I think Ecclesiastes points that out. I think when we are in the presence of God the things on the earth will be quite dim. I'm not married to that idea though. Maybe we will know what goes on in the earth, maybe we won't. The text could very well be referring to people on earth not remembering the dead as seen in these other places in Ecclesiastes:

Ecc 1 " 11 There is no remembrance of men of old,
and even those who are yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow."

Ecc 2 "16 For the wise man, like the fool, will not be long remembered; in days to come both will be forgotten. Like the fool, the wise man too must die!"

Ecc 8 "10 Then I saw the wicked buried, who had come and gone from the place of holiness, and they were forgotten in the city where they had so done. This also is vanity. "

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It is indeed folly to try and establish such doctrines of the nature of man from O.T. poetry written from the limited perspective of an ancient man. God no more inspired Solomon in that regard here than he inspired him to teach atronomy. Does the sun rise? Ecc 1-5 I might argue rather that the earth moves...

Jimlarmore said:

The phraseology is interpretative of those dead that would awaken to a state (of everlasting life or shame ) that they didn't have or was unaware of before when they were asleep. This truth makes no sense in an immortal soul scenario where they would already be experiencing that joy in heaven. Vice versa for the wicked dead and shame.

You can read a similar text in John 5:28 , except here the words are that all would hear His voice and come forth. This is clear language interpreted to mean that they couldn't hear His voice before . The resurrection is new life coming forth from the grave with glorified bodies. There is no place in the Bible that tells us that the Lord will re-unite our souls with our bodies at the resurrrection. This is a false assumption. John 5:28 also makes it clear that every human being who has ever lived ,wicked or righteous, will come back to life at some point in the future.

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John 5:28-29 " 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Yes, that text goes hand in hand with Daniel 12:2. Yes, I too believe that there will be a resurrection of the just and unjust. "All who are in the graves will hear His voice" does not mean that they have not heard His voice before. Do you mean that the followers of Jesus would not have heard His voice? Bodies are resurrected at His command. The righteous dead will receive their immortal bodies and the wicked dead will receive their judgement. Notice that the reference is to those who are in the graves. The body is what was put in the grave.

Jimlarmore said:

Another thing that you must think about is this. If Christ re-unites the souls with their bodies at the resurrection what has been burning all this time in Hell-fire with the wicked? The Bible makes it clear what will burn in Hell-fire and that is the body which is a soul. Does it make any sense that the Lord after torturing souls for thousands of years will bring them out of the flames of hell and re-unite them with their old resurrected bodies just to put them back to the flame again? Where do you believe hell is burning right now?

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The Bible makes a distinction between Hades and Gehenna. Hades is a Greek word for the realm of departed spirits and it never refers to the grave. Sheol is a Hebrew word in the OT that is generally the same as Hades. Gehenna is the future punishment in hell fire.

Now I believe lost souls are in Hades.

Hades and Gehenna are not the same thing. We see here in Revelation 20:14 that Hades will be thrown into Gehenna.
"13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Here are some texts that mention Hades:

Matthew 11:23 "23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day."

Matthew 16 "18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it"

Luke 16 "22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Acts 2 " 27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’

29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption."

Notice here that the soul is what was in Hades and the flesh is referred to separately.

Revelation 1 "18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death."

I'm probably one of the biggest proponents of reading context for clear meaning of what a verse says as anyone. I appreciate your use of context here but I differ with your assessement of how the context effects what the texts in question are actually saying. Sometimes the context of a verse can totally change what the meaning of a verse says but in all of these cases I can't see that. For instance Eila says that when you read the context of Ecc9:5 you find the phrase "under the sun" so this must only apply to those who live under the sun, i.e. on earth, and not to those who reside in heaven. This is sound reasoning but does that mean those who die go to heaven at death? Honestly, I can't see how you could logically conclude that from this contextual base. As a matter of fact the opposite is indicated.

Additionally, in Ps 115:17 and in Ps 146 Eila uses the context to indicate that only those who worship idols don't praise the Lord. However is this really the case? Take an honest look at what the context is saying and see if it gives this exclusive truth only to those who are wicked and worship idols. To me the statement is declarative in nature and stands alone as it is, there is nothing in the context to direct this declaration to anyone but the dead in general.

Context is vitally important but in these cases it does not disuade one from making a conclusion that the dead praise not the Lord or that when we die that very day our thoughts perish.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jimlarmore said:

I'm probably one of the biggest proponents of reading context for clear meaning of what a verse says as anyone. I appreciate your use of context here but I differ with your assessement of how the context effects what the texts in question are actually saying. Sometimes the context of a verse can totally change what the meaning of a verse says but in all of these cases I can't see that. For instance Eila says that when you read the context of Ecc9:5 you find the phrase "under the sun" so this must only apply to those who live under the sun, i.e. on earth, and not to those who reside in heaven. This is sound reasoning but does that mean those who die go to heaven at death? Honestly, I can't see how you could logically conclude that from this contextual base. As a matter of fact the opposite is indicated.

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I don't believe Ecclesiastes 9:5 is a place to go for understanding of the state of the dead. The point of Ecclesiastes is that the memory of people "under the sun" is no more. Does that mean that those in heaven will not know what goes on in the earth? The Bible is not definitive on that, but my supposition is that when a person is in the presense of God the things on the earth will be quite dim. But a more likely reference to what Ecclesiastes is referring to (based on other references in Ecclesiastes) is that people will no longer remember you when you die and that man's impact on the earth is done.

Jimlarmore said:

Additionally, in Ps 115:17 and in Ps 146 Eila uses the context to indicate that only those who worship idols don't praise the Lord. However is this really the case? Take an honest look at what the context is saying and see if it gives this exclusive truth only to those who are wicked and worship idols. To me the statement is declarative in nature and stands alone as it is, there is nothing in the context to direct this declaration to anyone but the dead in general.

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Psalm 115 "17 The dead do not praise the LORD,
Nor any who go down into silence."

18 But we will bless the LORD
From this time forth and forevermore"

Again this text cannot be used to declare that a soul sleeps. Right here is says that they will bless the Lord from that time until forever. Verse 18 starts with "But" Those that bless the Lord are not the ones who go down in silence. The silence is refering to not "praising the Lord".

Psalm 146 was not regarding people worshiping idols. I apologize if you misunderstood me.

"1 Praise the LORD!

Praise the LORD, O my soul!
2 While I live I will praise the LORD;
I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.

3 Do not put your trust in princes,
Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His spirit departs, he returns to his earth;
In that very day his plans perish.
5 Happy is he who has the God of Jacob for his help,
Whose hope is in the LORD his God,"

Psalm 146 is talking about where we put our trust. Do we put out trust in God or in people who will one day die and have no more ability to influence our life? When a person dies their plans on the earth are done.

Eila said:

I don't believe Ecclesiastes 9:5 is a place to go for understanding of the state of the dead. The point of Ecclesiastes is that the memory of people "under the sun" is no more. Does that mean that those in heaven will not know what goes on in the earth? The Bible is not definitive on that, but my supposition is that when a person is in the presense of God the things on the earth will be quite dim. But a more likely reference to what Ecclesiastes is referring to (based on other references in Ecclesiastes) is that people will no longer remember you when you die and that man's impact on the earth is done.

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Yes it says that as well but it also says the dead know not anything. This is declarative and unaffected by any context to deny the truth of what it means. To deny this is denying the clear teaching of the scriptures. I honestly believe I can take any text you could give me and do what you are doing to show it's not what it is clearly saying. This is called twisting the scriptures.

There is one more text I want you to read, it's Ezek 18:4. In this text what you find is the word of the creator Himself saying that all souls belong to Him and if a soul sins it will die. First off and most importantly this totally refutes the teaching of an immortal soul. The context goes on to say that if a man turns away from sin that he will surely live. So how do you interpret this text? Just curious.

Psalm 115 "17 The dead do not praise the LORD,
Nor any who go down into silence."

18 But we will bless the LORD
From this time forth and forevermore"

Again this text cannot be used to declare that a soul sleeps. Right here is says that they will bless the Lord from that time until forever. Verse 18 starts with "But" Those that bless the Lord are not the ones who go down in silence. The silence is refering to not "praising the Lord".

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Actually, the distinction is between those who are alive and those who are dead. The dead according to this cannot praise the Lord meaning they are not alive and cannot do anything which fits all the rest of the Bible. Now if the following verse had said but the righteous dead can praise the Lord after death in heaven then you would have something but it doesn't say that does it? What you are doing is attributing the abilities of the living to those who are dead and this does not support that assumption.

Psalm 146 was not regarding people worshiping idols. I apologize if you misunderstood me.

"1 Praise the LORD!

Praise the LORD, O my soul!
2 While I live I will praise the LORD;
I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.

3 Do not put your trust in princes,
Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His spirit departs, he returns to his earth;
In that very day his plans perish.
5 Happy is he who has the God of Jacob for his help,
Whose hope is in the LORD his God,"

Psalm 146 is talking about where we put our trust. Do we put out trust in God or in people who will one day die and have no more ability to influence our life? When a person dies their plans on the earth are done.

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Yep and thats the end of it until the Lord wakes them up at the resurrection, you seem to want to say BBBBBUUUUUUTTTTTT the soul lives on anyway. That assumption is not here in this or any other verse in the Bible. BTW, can you please find me any text that says the Lord will re-unite the bodies of the dead with living souls at His second coming?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

There are quite a few additional verses that help us to understand that we don't have an immortal soul.

Psa 6:5 - For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psa 146:4 - His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecc 3:19 - For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity.
20 - All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 - Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Just a couple of verses to consider.

Two questions for you Reddogs, if they have already been asked my appologies I read to about page 6 then just hit the post a reply button.

1/ what is eternal life?

2/ when talking about the separation of the sheep and the goats jesus uses the same words for eternal life and eternal punishment, if hell is not eternal why does he use the same words.


Mark


Perhapse it, would be better to PM me about it, thanx to Jimlarmore for the heads up.

MarkEvans and Reddogs,
I might caution you to take that question to another place to discuss. This forum is not for discussing annilhilism (ms) and will get you a warning for doing that here.

Sorry just thought I'd give you a heads up. I am speaking from experience.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jimlarmore said:

Yes it says that as well but it also says the dead know not anything. This is declarative and unaffected by any context to deny the truth of what it means. To deny this is denying the clear teaching of the scriptures.

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Ecc 1-5 also declares that the sun rises. Do you believe this?

Jimlarmore said:

Yes it says that as well but it also says the dead know not anything. This is declarative and unaffected by any context to deny the truth of what it means. To deny this is denying the clear teaching of the scriptures. I honestly believe I can take any text you could give me and do what you are doing to show it's not what it is clearly saying. This is called twisting the scriptures.

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I'm sure that is how you see it. I don't think you can take any part of the Bible and have it unaffected by the context. The context of Ecclesiastes is "under the sun". Yes, the dead know not anything under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 9 "3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope —even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun."

The total context of Eccl 9:5 is "under the sun". This chapter says "the same destiny overtakes all". Do we all have the same eternal fate? Of course not! We all however, have the same fate under the sun - death.

Psalms 39 says "5 Indeed, You have made my days as handbreadths,
And my age is as nothing before You;
Certainly every man at his best state is but vapor. Selah
6 Surely every man walks about like a shadow;
Surely they busy themselves in vain;
He heaps up riches,
And does not know who will gather them."

This is another text that points out the possibility that we may not know what goes on in the earth when our body dies.

Eila said:

I'm sure that is how you see it. I don't think you can take any part of the Bible and have it unaffected by the context. The context of Ecclesiastes is "under the sun". Yes, the dead know not anything under the sun.

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There are certain declarative statements that stand alone in truth. The context in these discussions do not invalidate the truth of the fact that the soul dies and is not immortal. Rationalizations can be used to change the meaning of any verse in the Bible. I will challenge you to this right here and now. Give me any verse in the Bible you like and I can do exactly what you are doing with these texts to show it is not really saying what you claim it to be saying. Want to take this challenge? Want to start with John 3:16 or some other well known verse? Let me know.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jimlarmore said:

There are certain declarative statements that stand alone in truth. The context in these discussions do not invalidate the truth of the fact that the soul dies and is not immortal. Rationalizations can be used to change the meaning of any verse in the Bible. I will challenge you to this right here and now. Give me any verse in the Bible you like and I can do exactly what you are doing with these texts to show it is not really saying what you claim it to be saying. Want to take this challenge? Want to start with John 3:16 or some other well known verse? Let me know.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

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How about this in Luke 16?
"19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Oye11 said:

Ecc 1-5 also declares that the sun rises. Do you believe this?

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Of course I believe the sun rises how does that effect the truth in Ecc 9:5?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jimlarmore said:

There are certain declarative statements that stand alone in truth. The context in these discussions do not invalidate the truth of the fact that the soul dies and is not immortal. Rationalizations can be used to change the meaning of any verse in the Bible. I will challenge you to this right here and now. Give me any verse in the Bible you like and I can do exactly what you are doing with these texts to show it is not really saying what you claim it to be saying. Want to take this challenge? Want to start with John 3:16 or some other well known verse? Let me know.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

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Here are some others who you might say are twisting the scriptues:

Regarding Ecclesiastes 9:

John Wesley's Explanatory Notes:

"Verse 5
[5] For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Die — Whereby they are taught to improve life.
Any thing — Of the actions and events of this world.
Reward — The fruit of their labours in this world, are utterly lost as to them.
Forgotten — Even in those places where they had lived in great power and glory.
Verse 6

[6] Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Also — They neither love, nor hate, nor envy any thing in this world, but are unconcerned in what is done under the sun."

Clarke's Commentary

"Verse 5. The living know that they shall die - This is so self-evident that none can doubt it; and therefore all that have this conviction should prepare for death and eternalblessedness.
But the dead know not any thing - Cut off from life, they know nothing of what passes under the sun. Their day of probation is ended, and therefore they can have no farther reward in living a holy life; nor can they be liable to any farther punishment for crimes in a state of probation, that being ended.
Verse 6. Also their love, and their hatred - It is evident that he speaks here of the ignorance, want of power, &c., of the dead, in reference only to this life. And though they have no more a portion under the sun, yet he does not intimate that they have none anywhere else. A man threatens to conquerkingdoms, &c. He dies; what are his threats? "

Schofield Reference Notes

"Chapter 9
9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.