One off or Lifetime Process

The Simple Plan · Aug 24, 2002

salvation (noun)
 1. The act of saving; preservation or deliverance from destruction, danger, or great calamity.
2. (Theol.) The redemption of man from the bondage of sin and liability to eternal death, and the conferring on him of everlasting happiness.

Salvation as defined above by point no. 1 seems to be a continuous process of deliverance and preservation.

How do we see this in light of biblical interpretation?

God is my Strength :wave:

Slave2SinNoMore · Aug 24, 2002

If you're talking about salvation in which a man is forgiven for all his sins and becomes a new creation in Christ, I think the Bible makes it pretty clear this is a one time act. The verse that used to bother me in respect to this is Philippians 2:12 (the "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling). But then, I found this wonderful explanation of the verse from the Watchman Expositor. This essay deals with the verse in reference to cults that say man brings about his own explanation by works, but it also can deal with the "ongoing process" argument.

I got it from:

http://www.watchman.org/reltop/worksal.htm

Enjoy...

Work Out Your Own Salvation -- From Hell?
Tom Forehand

Philippians 2:12: "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Most cults which have a works system of salvation will use this verse in an attempt to prove that one must work their way to heaven. But is this what Paul means in Philippians 2:12?
Of course not! The New Testament is clear that escaping hell and getting to heaven is gift (see Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 6:23). Paul meant something else in Philippians 2:12.First of all, the word for "salvation" in this verse is the word sorteria which comes indirectly from the verb, sozo, meaning "to save." However, sozo has many different meanings in the New Testament such as:
"rescue, deliver, keep safe, preserve, cure, make well," (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, p. 177). The word, sozo, can be associated with the healing of one's physical body -- a
woman being made whole (see Matt. 9:22, "thy faith hath made thee whole"). Thus, when this word "saved" or "salvation" is used in connection with the spiritual condition, it can and does have different emphases.
There are at least three main divisions in the spiritual concept of being "saved" as found in the Bible: being saved from hell (called justification); being saved from effects of the temptation of sin day by day
(called sanctification); and having the body "saved" or resurrected from the grave and thus made whole (called glorification).
The first kind of saving, from hell, (justification) is received by faith in the Person of Christ. It happens only once and is pictured as having already occurred in the life of a believer (Eph. 2:8, "are ye saved," is
perfect tense in the Greek -- this saving has already taken place in the past, at the moment of conversion; cf. Romans 4:2-6; John 5:24). This justification determines where one's eternal destiny.
Another kind of saving, glorification, is the final rescue of the body, by resurrection, from the grave. At that time, the physical body will become like Christ's (Phil. 3:21; 1 John 3:2). This glorification is viewed in the
scripture as taking place in the future (Rom. 13:11, "is nearer than when we believed"). At that time Chrisitans will actually be made righteous (2 Cor. 5:21) rather than just being as "imputed" as righteous now (Rom. 4:5).
The third type of saving, sanctification, is being saved each day from giving in to temptation to sin. One avoids giving in to temptation when one cooperates each day with the indwelling spirit of God by obedience, continued repentance and confession of sin, etc. (Eph. 5:18; 1 John 9). The more one
cooperates with the spirit, then the more of a victorious Christian life one will live, the more fruit one will bear and the better Christian witness one will bear before the world (John 15:4-6). This daily Christian
living will be rewarded when the believer gets to heaven (1 Cor. 3:14-15). This kind of saving determines the quality of fellowship one has with God, but does not determine one's eternal destiny. This main fruit
which comes from this sanctified living is that of love between Christians (John 13:35).
The last king of saving, sanctification, this avoidance of giving in to the temptation of sin, is what Paul was addressing in Philippians 2:12. Paul is telling the Philippians, who have been arguing and bickering with
each other publicly, "Be careful in your corporate witness in Philippi. All of you work out before the whole town the being delivered or preserved or rescued each day from the sin of backbiting," (Phil. 2:13).
Philippians 2:12 cannot be a command to an individual church member telling him that he must work to escape hell. The reasons why? In Verse 13 the word "beloved" is plural; the verb "have obeyed" is plural; the verb "work out" is also in the plural; and the word "own" is plural. Thus, Paul is not giving a command to an individual, but is giving a command, a corporate command, to all the Philippian Christians about the safety or preservation or rescue of the entire church at Philippi. He is commanding them as a group to do
something -- watch closely their public behavior as a group.
How are the Philippians to do this? Verse 13: "For it is God who worketh in you" -- once again "you" is plural, referring to the entire group. Since Christ has worked out the salvation from hell, Christians need to work together to give as good a witness as possible to a lost world.

Blackhawk · Aug 24, 2002

Slave2SinNoMore,

I really liked that article. It summed up things rather nicely. Although when I saw it was from the "Watchman Expositor" I was thinking "Oh no he is a JW" They use the term Watchmen for their magazine and I think that is where this group got their name although firmly opposed to them.

But anyways I agree with the essay that We are justified immeadiately by grace through faith. And then sanctificatin is the life long process of getting us to think and act how we are already justified which will be completed when we go to heaven. And then glorification is the process of ressurecting our bodies and glorifying them into a body that can dwell in Heaven. One without sin.

So all three of these work together in God's plan for salvation.

blackhawk

Slave2SinNoMore · Aug 24, 2002

Originally posted by Blackhawk
Slave2SinNoMore,

I really liked that article. It summed up things rather nicely. Although when I saw it was from the "Watchman Expositor" I was thinking "Oh no he is a JW"

blackhawk

Blackhawk,
I have a funny story about interaction with a certain group of JWs. Years ago, I was visited by 2 ladies who were JWs. I let them know I was a Baptist, but we talked for a few minutes. Well, they kept coming by, maybe once a week. Well, I was studying up on JWs, so I was able to converse with them, and was able to refute some of their main points. But we always had pleasant, non-confrontational discussions. Then one day, they brought a man who used to be a Baptist but converted to JW. Well, finally it got to the point where it was going nowhere, so I politely told them that I was not going to be converted, but if they wanted to be converted that I would be happy for them to continue coming by. I haven't seen them since.

But I think the JW's use The Watchtower, not Watchman.

Thanks for all your good points!
MIke

Thunderchild · Aug 24, 2002

Ephesians 2:8-9 is addressed to people who in time past sinned, having previously walked in the way of the world - but, despite being dead in their sins, have been made alive in Christ by the exercise of God's grace. In short, as declared at the beginning of the epistle, this is addressed to saints.

Romans 6:23 is addressed to people who have been freed, with the intent that they become slaves of righteousness, from slavery to sin.

Blackhawk · Aug 24, 2002

Originally posted by Slave2SinNoMore

Blackhawk,
I have a funny story about interaction with a certain group of JWs. Years ago, I was visited by 2 ladies who were JWs. I let them know I was a Baptist, but we talked for a few minutes. Well, they kept coming by, maybe once a week. Well, I was studying up on JWs, so I was able to converse with them, and was able to refute some of their main points. But we always had pleasant, non-confrontational discussions. Then one day, they brought a man who used to be a Baptist but converted to JW. Well, finally it got to the point where it was going nowhere, so I politely told them that I was not going to be converted, but if they wanted to be converted that I would be happy for them to continue coming by. I haven't seen them since.

But I think the JW's use The Watchtower, not Watchman.

Thanks for all your good points!
MIke

 

Yeah that is how it usualy goes.  Even if the people who first come to your door still want to come by and see you the more experienced JWs tell them not to.  Basically through manipulation force them not to see you.  You know all that basic cult mind control stuff.  And you are right it is the watchtower.  I was close though. 

Slave2SinNoMore · Aug 24, 2002

Originally posted by Thunderchild
Ephesians 2:8-9 is addressed to people who in time past sinned, having previously walked in the way of the world - but, despite being dead in their sins, have been made alive in Christ by the exercise of God's grace. In short, as declared at the beginning of the epistle, this is addressed to saints.

Romans 6:23 is addressed to people who have been freed, with the intent that they become slaves of righteousness, from slavery to sin.

The letter, of course, was written to believers in Ephesians. But verses 4-10 describe their salvation experience. These people were dead in sins before they became Christians, but as soon as they became Chistians, they were born anew, they became new creations, made "alive in Christ".

In romans 6:23, when it says "the wages of sin is death", it can only be referring to non-Christians, because a Christian's sin is forgiven and the wages have already been paid.

The Simple Plan · Aug 24, 2002

Thanks for your reponses guys. Can I assume then that when people talk about once saved always saved they are referring to justification, i.e. "being saved from hell"?

And that in answering my question, sanctification is the continuous process of being saved each day from giving into tempatation from sin?

God is my Strength :wave:

Thunderchild · Aug 24, 2002

In romans 6:23, when it says "the wages of sin is death", it can only be referring to non-Christians, because a Christian's sin is forgiven and the wages have already been paid.

Romans 6:21-22 Therefore what fruit did you have then in the things over which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now being set free from sin, but having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit unto sanctification, and its end: everlasting life

Nice try, but no kewpie doll:

Col 3:5-6 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Eph 5:8 - 9 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth

Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

And that in answering my question, sanctification is the continuous process of being saved each day from giving into tempatation from sin?

In part yes - but it is more a matter of having the fruits of the Spirit and in increasing measure. Paul declares the (hypothetical) person who keeps the whole of the law and having all faith, but being without love, to be lost.

Gal 5:22 -24 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness**, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
** AKJV concept of meekness varies from current understanding - for meekness read humility - that is: not thinking more of one's-self than is justifiable.

1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Slave2SinNoMore · Aug 24, 2002

Originally posted by Thunderchild

Romans 6:21-22 Therefore what fruit did you have then in the things over which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now being set free from sin, but having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit unto sanctification, and its end: everlasting life

Nice try, but no kewpie doll:

Col 3:5-6 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Eph 5:8 - 9 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth

Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Thunderchild, I don't understand what you're trying to say. Please clear it up for me, because as it is now, the passages you quote support my position: That when a person becomes a Christian, his sins are forgiven and he becomes a new creation. His sin nature (the old self) is crucified with Christ.

Thunderchild · Aug 25, 2002

In romans 6:23, when it says "the wages of sin is death", it can only be referring to non-Christians, because a Christian's sin is forgiven and the wages have already been paid.

Is this supported by those passages?

But take a look at Jesus's own declarations on the matter.

John 8:31

Jesus, then says to the Jews believing him, "If ever** you should be remaining in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will be freeing you." They answered him, "Abraham's seed are we, and we have never (been) slaves: not of anyone. How are you saying that 'You shall become free'?" Jesus answered them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you that everyone doing sin is sin's slave."

 

If ever** "provided that", or, "for as long as"

Interesting, that piece, is it not? A person can be a believer without being set free from sin. A disciple is set free from sin, by his knowledge of the truth. But a believer need not be a disciple.

LightBearer · Aug 25, 2002

What did Jesus mean when he said.

John 15:2-6
"Every branch in me not bearing fruit he takes away, and every one bearing fruit he cleans, that it may bear more fruit. YOU are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to YOU. Remain in union with me, and I in union with YOU. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, in the same way neither can YOU, unless YOU remain in union with me. I am the vine, YOU are the branches. He that remains in union with me, and I in union with him, this one bears much fruit; because apart from me YOU can do nothing at all. If anyone does not remain in union with me, he is cast out as a branch and is dried up; and men gather those branches up and pitch them into the fire and they are burned".

Why also did Jude encourage the christians to "put up a hard fight for their faith"  Then use the ancient nation of Israel as a warning example of ones who although once having salvation, lost it through disobedience.

 

The Simple Plan · Aug 26, 2002

Just for clarification (and thanks for the watchman article S2SNM) how I understand the ongoing process is best demonstrated in the following basic analogy.

If I see a car in a wreckers yard, I know that it has potential and that if I don't purchase it, it will be destroyed. I buy it. (Justicification - one time salvation act)

I then spend time restoring the car to its former glory, replacing the colour, engine, wheels, stereo, etc. (Sanctification - continuous restoration)

Finally the car is road worthy, I buy tax, fill it with oil, water and fuel.(Glorification)

However I hasten to add that sanctification is not always experienced by the believer (see Thief on the Cross!!), but this is my understanding as to how Christ salvages me. It is not only about recovering me from destruction, but restoring me to the image he originally created me to be.

God is my strength :wave:

Blackhawk · Aug 26, 2002

I just want to say that although I believe parts of salvation to be an ongoing process I also believe in OSAS. For some reason I think I should clarify that.

Basically God is the one who justifies and glorifies. We play no part in those at all. Sanctification we play a role with God. Even though I play a role in it I do not believe that I can lose it. God is still the one who is in control of it. And i believe that my eternal security is secure even without sanctification before death. i.e. the thief on the cross.

thusaith · Aug 26, 2002

  Originally posted by Blackhawk
I just want to say that although I believe parts of salvation to be an ongoing process I also believe in OSAS. For some reason I think I should clarify that.

I have always been a firm believer in the "once saved always saved" doctrine and I often heard my former pastor refer to it as "once saved never lost!"  I think it is basically the same concept. 

 
Basically God is the one who justifies and glorifies. We play no part in those at all. Sanctification we play a role with God. [/B]

You sound like you have a considerable amount of knowledge on this subject.  I'm not sure if I can say we have no part in keeping ourselves saved, but can you explain from the bible how we do not play any part in keeping ourselves saved.

 
Even though I play a role in it I do not believe that I can lose it. God is still the one who is in control of it. And i believe that my eternal security is secure even without sanctification before death. i.e. the thief on the cross. [/B]

Click to expand...

OK so then we do have some kind of a role in keeping ourselves saved.  I have to ask you a question then.  How is it that God is in control of us keeping ourselves saved.  Especially when I see verses like in Romans 11:19-23, "You will say then, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again."

You see to me it seems like there are a lot of bible verses that seem to say something about a person possibly being cast off  from God's gift of salvation.  I mean there are a multitude of verses that talk about this.  Can you show some verses that absolutely guarentee that a person is always saved and never lost or as it is always referred to as once saved always saved?

I was also thinking of this in  Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13), "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away."

This parable where Jesus is talking about the seed and the sower seems like another one where it is possible of one loosing their eternal security, wouldn't you agree?  If not, maybe you can explain what Christ is really teaching.  

thusaith

 

Slave2SinNoMore · Aug 26, 2002

Originally posted by Thunderchild

Is this supported by those passages?

But take a look at Jesus's own declarations on the matter.

John 8:31

Jesus, then says to the Jews believing him, "If ever** you should be remaining in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will be freeing you." They answered him, "Abraham's seed are we, and we have never (been) slaves: not of anyone. How are you saying that 'You shall become free'?" Jesus answered them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you that everyone doing sin is sin's slave."

 

If ever** "provided that", or, "for as long as"

Interesting, that piece, is it not? A person can be a believer without being set free from sin. A disciple is set free from sin, by his knowledge of the truth. But a believer need not be a disciple.

Click to expand...

What version of the Bible do you use? The NKJV says "the truth shall make you free" not "the truth will be freeing you". In fact, I'm not sure I've ever read it as "the truth will be freeing you".

You said that a person can be a believer without being set free from sin. That's not what Paul says:

Dont lie to each other, for you have stripped off your old evil nature and all its wicked deeds. (Colossians 3:9)

Our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin, for when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin. (Romans 6:6-7)

In its place you have clothed yourselves with a brand-new nature that is continually being renewed as you learn more and more about Christ, who created this new nature within you. (Colossians 3:10)

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:2)

And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness (Romans 6:18)

Here is an excellent way to describe this idea of ebing "free from sin", and there is more at
http://www.eomtc.com/aibi/fllwup7.htm

"The Bible makes clear that Christians have victory over both the penalty and power of sin. We often find it difficult to believe this because of the intense struggle we have with "sin in our members". (Romans 7, Galatians 5:16-18) 1 John gives us a clue on how to think about this when it says "he cannot sin because he has been born of God" - who cannot sin - that part of us that has been born of God and is a new creation in Christ! Christ in us is sin-free - as sinless as he was here on earth! When we die and God takes us to heaven then we will not sin any more. The part of us that lasts forever is free from sin. In fact it is so completely unresponsive to sin that it can be said to be "dead to sin". Our true eternal selves are sinless.

This is a powerful truth that can help us live the Christian life. There are two parts of us in conflict "the flesh" which is temporary and which stops having any influence after we die or Christ returns, and the spirit which is eternal, spotless, undefiled and holy. Hence another name for all Christians is "saints" or "holy ones' because our true, essentials elves are holy we can be called "holy ones". Now this battle between the flesh and the spirit can be very intense and very discouraging. In fact the apostle Paul cries out (Romans 7:21 NKJV) " I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good." This is the experience of all Christians and often makes us feel very condemned."

Slave2SinNoMore · Aug 26, 2002

Originally posted by LightBearer
What did Jesus mean when he said.

John 15:2-6
"Every branch in me not bearing fruit he takes away, and every one bearing fruit he cleans, that it may bear more fruit. YOU are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to YOU. Remain in union with me, and I in union with YOU. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, in the same way neither can YOU, unless YOU remain in union with me. I am the vine, YOU are the branches. He that remains in union with me, and I in union with him, this one bears much fruit; because apart from me YOU can do nothing at all. If anyone does not remain in union with me, he is cast out as a branch and is dried up; and men gather those branches up and pitch them into the fire and they are burned".
Why also did Jude encourage the christians to "put up a hard fight for their faith"  Then use the ancient nation of Israel as a warning example of ones who although once having salvation, lost it through disobedience.
 

Funny timing, you posting the John 15:2-6 passage, because we just had a sermon on it in church yesterday. This passage does not have anything to do with losing salvation. The "he takes away" in verse 2 is not equal to "taking salvation away". Following the fruit parallel, it means that the Lord takes the branch that is not bearing fruit away from the situation that is causing it not to bear fruit, cutting off the dead roots, and placing it in a place and situation in which it will be able to bear fruit. This was probably referring to vines that had fallen onto the ground and the roots were shooting into the ground and either producing no fruit or were producing sour fruit. Then the caretaker comes and has to rip teh vine out of teh ground and place it in a situation in which it will be more likely to produce fruit.

as far the following verses are concerned:

B]If anyone does not remain in union with me, he is cast out[/B] as a branch and is dried up; and men gather those branches up and pitch them into the fire and they are burned"."

One thing you can't say is that the "and they are burned" means losing salvation and/or going to hell. Why? Because it says that "men" not the Lord, gather them up and pitch them into the fire.

Our preacher explained it this way: Anyone who does not produce fruit, is seen by the world (men) as being ineffectual, and to the "men" of the world, they are "burned in the fire". That means that "men" will see them for what they are and their witness and mission is destroyed, as in a fire.

Thunderchild · Aug 27, 2002

Oh dear - it is written: "he who has this hope (of eternal life) in him purifies himself, just as He also is pure." Of course this really means that a person plays no part in his sanctification, despite what the meanings of the individual words and their order in the phrases and sentence literally mean.

Thunderchild · Aug 27, 2002

Our preacher explained it this way: Anyone who does not produce fruit, is seen by the world (men) as being ineffectual, and to the "men" of the world, they are "burned in the fire". That means that "men" will see them for what they are and their witness and mission is destroyed, as in a fire

The scriptures make it very easy to determine whether an individual's interpretation of distinct passages is correct.

Luk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain [man] had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung [it]: And if it bear fruit, [well]: and if not, [then] after that thou shalt cut it down.

You will note in this passage that the vinedresser is a servant of the owner - not a person of the world at all. You will note further, that just as Moses stood in the breach, so too this vinedresser stands in the breach - pleading the case of the tree. And finally, it is not the man who is to cut the tree down at all, but the owner himself.

Now back to that passage in question - They who put the branches cut off into the fire are not the servants of the owner of the vine ?

But let us by no means end with these passages.

Examine the fig tree which Jesus cursed around the time of Palm Sunday. Is this perhaps a parable in its own right? Jesus approaches the fig tree to obtain if at all possible a ripe fig to eat. It is not the season for figs - the tree has none. Jesus curses the tree and it withers from the roots up. Now what lessons does this event re-inforce?

Thunderchild · Aug 27, 2002

What version of the Bible do you use? The NKJV says "the truth shall make you free" not "the truth will be freeing you". In fact, I'm not sure I've ever read it as "the truth will be freeing you".

The version is called the Concordant version - which preserves in as far as possible the actual tenses of the words in the Koine Greek texts (that is a big ask, Greek had far more tenses than English). It makes for a mangled English rendering quite often, but meanings are more thoroughly established than with readable versions. Each version has its own strengths and weaknesses. In the concordant, as far as is sensible, one Koine Greek word will be translated as the same English word. Where that is not possible, a selection of two or three English words will always translate ONLY that one Greek word. (One could not uniformly translate "can" into any other language. It might be that I can open a can, but I will never container open an able to.) All languages have homonyms - Japanese "hana" for instance might mean "nose" or "flower" Before the introduction of vowel signs Old style Hebrew "KRBN" might have meant "Holy to the Lord" or "shrine prostitute," but I digress.

Yes, all that is indeed written: And we do well to take account of the following sections of Romans also:

Romans 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. Romans 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves of righteousness.

Romans 7:18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I can not carry it out. Romans 8:3 ... and so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us..

Romans 7:23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ..

Nonetheless - Paul's accounts are not in conflict with the repeated statements of Jesus to the effect that many are called but few are chosen.

This assurance of salvation that Paul refers to is "we" have the assurance of salvation. He is talking to the faithful in Christ, not everyone who believes, but disciples.

One off or Lifetime Process

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