Propserity Gospel, Freemasonry, and Denials of Christian Teaching

DaveKerwin · Aug 19, 2002

Originally posted by Andrew
Quaffie,

Actually, Mary and Joseph were quite poor. The clue is that they offered pigeons to the priest (cant rem where in the Bible). In those days the rich offered bullocks, middle class lambs, poor --doves and poorer still flour (notice the decreasing size and how God is so flexible).

BUT the point is that after Jesus came along, they prospered -- think of all the gold and expensive gifts the wise men/king-makers (and there were more than 3!) gave to Jesus when he was abt 2 years old. And I mean, if Jesus were living with you, do you think you'll get poorer and sicker? So, the spiritual truth here is that people prosper once Jesus comes into their lives (unless of course they reject the gifts but we dont see Mary and Joseph saying "no thank you we want to remain holy"). we can also see that wherever the Gospel has gone/been planted throughout the world, there has been economic development, women are no longer oppressed etc -- compare this to communist/muslim/hindu nations.

--------------

Dave,

quote:"God has given me a lot, and I am grateful for what I have."

that to me is plain prosperity. now wldnt God also want you to have health so that you can enjoy what he's blessed you with? eg what's the point of having 3 hot meals a day if you have stomach ulcers?

So why be against "health and wealth" Gospel? BTW there's no such thing as a health and wealth gospel (the faith mvt never calls it that), only one true Gospel of peace/salvation. But health and prosperity are part of the Gospel (that's plainly in the Bible). And to prosper does not just mean financially, but also in the area of your career, family life, relationships, ministry etc. The meaning is actually "excellence in all things".

Andrew, I was going to go into this detailed reply about what you said, instead I will post something fresh for you to consider.

1. Jesus :
Who was not wealthy, who's health suffered badly. If God himself didn't hold riches, and was humbled to suffer on a cross, why should we be that much better? I believe it preposterous to say we deserve prosperity in such a way. You said we are sons of the most high, which is true. But if the most high didn't have wealth, and suffered much, why should we, his sons, have more?

2. The Widow's Offering

I will quote scripture on this one. Mark 12:41-44

"Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a fraction of a penny. Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, 'I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything--all she had to live on.' "

Was the widow right with God eventhough she had no wealth?
Was she in sin because she only had that little fraction of a penny?

3. The Apostle Paul
When Paul was saved, he went out to serve God and preach the gospel. Was he rich? He probably had some money, obviously enough to afford items to write letters. Was he healthy? No, he had health issues with the "thorn in his flesh", which was likely to be a physical ailment. Here what Paul said in 2nd Corinthians 12: 1-10

Paul's Vision and His Thorn

"I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows. And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows-- was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say. To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."

Paul was given that thorn to keep him from being conceited.
God would not take it away, he continued to allow hardships in Paul's life, for a purpose, to allow HIS strength to be displayed. So Paul's physical ailment, and other hardships were given as part of God's will, in order for Paul to do service in the kingdom. And if this can be done to one of the world's most dynamic christians, why not to us as well?

4. Parable of the Sower

Matthew 13: 22

"The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful."

There is a deceitfulness in wealth. I am not saying that just because a person has money they are deceived, just pointing out that scripture mentions how wealth can be decieving, which can make the christian life unfruitful.

5. Love of Money / Rich in good deeds.

2 Timothy 6: 3-19

Love of Money

"If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which God will bring about in his own time--God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life. "

/\ that speaks for itself

I could go further, and ask more questions, and give more veses, and add more details, but that is not necessary.

SpiritPsalmist · Aug 19, 2002

Originally posted by DaveKerwin

Andrew, I was going to go into this detailed reply about what you said, instead I will post something fresh for you to consider.

1. Jesus :
Who was not wealthy, who's health suffered badly. If God himself didn't hold riches, and was humbled to suffer on a cross, why should we be that much better? I believe it preposterous to say we deserve prosperity in such a way. You said we are sons of the most high, which is true. But if the most high didn't have wealth, and suffered much, why should we, his sons, have more?

2. The Widow's Offering

I will quote scripture on this one. Mark 12:41-44

"Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a fraction of a penny. Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, 'I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything--all she had to live on.' "

Was the widow right with God eventhough she had no wealth?
Was she in sin because she only had that little fraction of a penny?

3. The Apostle Paul
When Paul was saved, he went out to serve God and preach the gospel. Was he rich? He probably had some money, obviously enough to afford items to write letters. Was he healthy? No, he had health issues with the "thorn in his flesh", which was likely to be a physical ailment. Here what Paul said in 2nd Corinthians 12: 1-10

Paul's Vision and His Thorn

"I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows. And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows-- was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say. To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."

Paul was given that thorn to keep him from being conceited.
God would not take it away, he continued to allow hardships in Paul's life, for a purpose, to allow HIS strength to be displayed. So Paul's physical ailment, and other hardships were given as part of God's will, in order for Paul to do service in the kingdom. And if this can be done to one of the world's most dynamic christians, why not to us as well?

4. Parable of the Sower

Matthew 13: 22

"The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful."

There is a deceitfulness in wealth. I am not saying that just because a person has money they are deceived, just pointing out that scripture mentions how wealth can be decieving, which can make the christian life unfruitful.

5. Love of Money / Rich in good deeds.

2 Timothy 6: 3-19

Love of Money

"If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which God will bring about in his own time--God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life. "

/\ that speaks for itself

I could go further, and ask more questions, and give more veses, and add more details, but that is not necessary.

Dave,

I know you addressed this to Andrew but I have a few comments and questions.

RE your #1:  I'm quite stunned at such a statement.  Where is the scripture that backs your opinion?

If the wisemen brought treasures of gold, frandincense, and myrrh.  What do you suppose Joseph and Mary did with those gifts?  Also, Jesus and the disciples, one of them being the treasurer.  What was he the treasurer of?  And how was he able to steal from it on a regular basis? 

And, none of us deserve anything that God has done for us but since, he's offering it why should I refuse.

And you say Jesus had health problems that He suffered badly with?  Where is that scripture?  I know that on the cross all of our sins and diseases were laid on Him but where does it say that He suffered with them before that?

#2:  Of course the widow was not in sin because she was poor.  But the fact that she gave all she had was the point Jesus was making.  The rich did not even feel the dent of their giving. 

#3:  In one scripture Paul states that he knows how to be in abundance and how to be in need.  In both he could be content.  And while it can be debated, it cannot be proven what Paul's thorn was.  I believe it was a person who continuously harrased him (no need to debate with me on it: I won't).  Andrew has already done a fine job on this one. 

Anyway, those are just a few question's I had right off.

SpiritPsalmist · Aug 19, 2002

Originally posted by Quaffer
Sorry guys, I was responding to the "homeless" statement.  I don't know any scripture that says they were homeless. 

They may have been poor but according to the scripture ref I gave, Jesus was born in a stable because there was no room in the inn. It does not say they had no money to pay for a room. They tried to get a room, but it was full because everyone else was there to pay their taxes too. 

Now I suppose they could have been considered homeless at that point because they were living in a stable.  But I do not believe it was because they had no money. 

They did not buy a house because they were only there to pay the tax. 

And, like Andrew pointed out, the Magi brought rich gifts, so Mary and Joseph were no longer poor.  God was not a dead-beat dad.

 

After doing some reading this weekend I have a little more input.

 

Luke 2:22-24 (Amplified) And when the time for their purification [the mothers' purification and the Baby's dedication] came according to the Law of Moses, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord - As it is written in the Law of the Lord, Every [firstborn] male that opens the womb shall be set apart and dedicated and called holy to the Lord. And [they came also] to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the Law of the Lord; a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons. [Lev. 12:6-8]

Lev 12:6-8 (Amplified) When the days of her purifying are completed, whether for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb a year old for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a turtle dove for a sin offering to the door of the Tent of Meeting to the priest; And he shall offer it before the Lord and make atonement for her, and she shall be cleansed from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who has borne a male or a female child. And if she is unable to bring a lamb [for lack of means] then she shall bring two turtledoves or young pigeons, one for a burnt offering, the other for a sin offering; the priest shall make atonement ofr her and whe shall be clean.

So, we see as Andrew pointed out, that Mary's offiering of a pair of turtledoves or two young pigions, is a clue that they were not considered to be rich at that time.

However, at some point they did get a house. According to the following scripture, when the wise men arrived they were in a house. Since Joseph was a carpenter it was not unlikely that he built it. But, scripture does not tell us. At least, not that I could find.

In Matt 2:10, 11 (Amplified) it says, When they saw the star, they were thrilled with ecstatic joy. And on going into the house, they saw the Child with Mary His mother, and they fell down and worshipped Him. Then opening their treasure bags, they presented to Him gifts - gold and frankincense and myrrh.

LouisBooth · Aug 19, 2002

"BUT the point is that after Jesus came along, they prospered -- "

Umm..not really, he was still a carpender all his life (joseph) and that is what he was known for. I don't think that was a really great profession. He wasn't rich at all. Christ didn't have any place to be buried either..someone donated a cave

He borrowed donkeys, food and many many other things because he didn't have money to buy them. Did you read the passage about the feeding of the mulitudes? If they were rich they would not have worried about getting money to feed those people, nor would have judus betrayed him for a small amount of 20 pieces if they were rolling, now would he? They went back to finishing before Christ appeared to them, does that sound like rich folk to you? Doesn't to me

For what God's thoughts are on physical wealth, read it from the horses mouth Mat 6:19-21

Oh..and the presentation fot he doves in Luke chapter 2 is LOONNNGG after the magi gifts

Andrew · Aug 19, 2002

Those with a spirit of poverty will always see poverty in scriptures.

eg: quote: "Did you read the passage about the feeding of the mulitudes?"

a poor spirit mentality says:"If they were rich they would not have worried about getting money to feed those people"

Holy Spirit guided mentality says: "Hmmm, how can a man who can feed 5,000 men (exluding women and children) with 12 basketfuls leftover be poor!"

start with the wrong spirit/bias, & you interpret wrongly all the way.
--------------

AMEN Quaffie, no one with Jesus in their lives can remain poor, unless they reject his blessings thinking that its more "holy" to be poor. -- "I'm so holy coz me got holes in me shoes!" That's the dark-ages, self-righteous mentality.

SpiritPsalmist · Aug 20, 2002

Originally posted by LouisBooth
[BOh..and the presentation fot he doves in Luke chapter 2 is LOONNNGG after the magi gifts [/B]

Really?  What do you base that on?  Luke 2:21 says "at the end of 8 days of the birth of the baby".

Originally posted by LouisBooth Umm..not really, he was still a carpender all his life (joseph) and that is what he was known for. I don't think that was a really great profession. He wasn't rich at all. Christ didn't have any place to be buried either..someone donated a cave He borrowed donkeys, food and many many other things because he didn't have money to buy them. Did you read the passage about the feeding of the mulitudes? If they were rich they would not have worried about getting money to feed those people, nor would have judus betrayed him for a small amount of 20 pieces if they were rolling, now would he? They went back to finishing before Christ appeared to them, does that sound like rich folk to you? Doesn't to me [/B]

 

You're quite right, He was a carpenter.  But scripture does not tell us it was for the rest of His life.  If it does please give me the scripture ref.

And, I ask the questions again: why would Jesus need a treasurer if there was no money?  And, how could that treasurer regularly steal from it if there was no money? Judas was greedy.  That's why he betrayed the Lord.

Where doed it say the disciples worred about getting money to feed the 5000? In John 6:5 Jesus asked Philip where they may buy bread to eat?  Luke 9:13 they offerd to go buy food for the crowd.

DaveKerwin · Aug 20, 2002

Originally posted by Quaffer

Dave,

I know you addressed this to Andrew but I have a few comments and questions.

RE your #1:  I'm quite stunned at such a statement.  Where is the scripture that backs your opinion?

If the wisemen brought treasures of gold, frandincense, and myrrh.  What do you suppose Joseph and Mary did with those gifts?  Also, Jesus and the disciples, one of them being the treasurer.  What was he the treasurer of?  And how was he able to steal from it on a regular basis? 

And, none of us deserve anything that God has done for us but since, he's offering it why should I refuse.

And you say Jesus had health problems that He suffered badly with?  Where is that scripture?  I know that on the cross all of our sins and diseases were laid on Him but where does it say that He suffered with them before that?

#2:  Of course the widow was not in sin because she was poor.  But the fact that she gave all she had was the point Jesus was making.  The rich did not even feel the dent of their giving. 

#3:  In one scripture Paul states that he knows how to be in abundance and how to be in need.  In both he could be content.  And while it can be debated, it cannot be proven what Paul's thorn was.  I believe it was a person who continuously harrased him (no need to debate with me on it: I won't).  Andrew has already done a fine job on this one. 

Anyway, those are just a few question's I had right off.

Yes, it was addressed to Andrew, and it was not responded to by him, interesting huh?

Jesus had health problems at the end of his life, he suffered and died, that is the epitomy of being unhealthy.

Big deal man, he got gifts when he was a baby, how long do you think those even lasted? Do you have an abundant wealth from the gifts you received from you fifth birthday? NO!

Please show me how God is offering you health and wealth. And please show me how the lack of those things reflects your standing with God. It is my understanding that the teaching says if you are unhealthy, and having money problems, then there is sin in your life, that is my understanding of it.

If you say something is in the Bible, then quote it. If you cannot quote it, then don't say its in there. (by the way, I consider NIV, NASB, and NKJV acceptable translations, with the NASB being the most trustworthy text, though I quote the NIV because that is what I read).

I highly doubt Paul's thorn was someone harrasing him, if it was not a health issue, then it had to be something greater than words.

DaveKerwin · Aug 20, 2002

Originally posted by Andrew
Those with a spirit of poverty will always see poverty in scriptures.

eg: quote: "Did you read the passage about the feeding of the mulitudes?"

a poor spirit mentality says:"If they were rich they would not have worried about getting money to feed those people"

Holy Spirit guided mentality says: "Hmmm, how can a man who can feed 5,000 men (exluding women and children) with 12 basketfuls leftover be poor!"

start with the wrong spirit/bias, & you interpret wrongly all the way.
--------------

AMEN Quaffie, no one with Jesus in their lives can remain poor, unless they reject his blessings thinking that its more "holy" to be poor. -- "I'm so holy coz me got holes in me shoes!" That's the dark-ages, self-righteous mentality.

2 Timothy 6

"If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness.

Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.

Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.

SpiritPsalmist · Aug 20, 2002

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
 

Jesus had health problems at the end of his life, he suffered and died, that is the epitomy of being unhealthy.

So, it appears to me that we are in agreement that Jesus was the epitomy of health until He was hanging on the cross.  If you believe otherwise. . .I asked for your scripture ref.

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
 
Big deal man, he got gifts when he was a baby, how long do you think those even lasted? Do you have an abundant wealth from the gifts you received from you fifth birthday? NO!

On what birthday did you receive bags of gold, frankenscence, and myrh?  I believe it lasted until He did not need it anymore. 

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
 
Please show me how God is offering you health and wealth.

2 Cor 9:8 (Amplified) my pref "And God is able to make all grace (every favor and earthly blessing) come to you in abundance, so that you may always and under all circumstances and whatever the need be self-sufficient [possessing enough to require no aid or support and furnished in abundance for every good work and charitable donation]

It's a blessing to be healthy.  It's a blessing to have enough to be self-sufficient and able to give to every good work and charitable donation.

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
 
And please show me how the lack of those things reflects your standing with God. It is my understanding that the teaching says if you are unhealthy, and having money problems, then there is sin in your life, that is my understanding of it.

I don't know any scripture that teaches that.  I don't teach it either.

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
 
If you quote something is in the Bible, then quote it. If you cannot quote it, then don't say its in there. (by the way, I consider NIV, NASB, and NKJV acceptable translations, with the NASB being the most trustworthy text, though I quote the NIV because that is what I read).

I thought I did quote them for you Dave.  Sorry, if I missed some.

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
 
I highly doubt Paul's thorn was someone harrasing him, if it was not a health issue, then it had to be something greater than words.

"It had to be".  Neither one of us will know absolutely, positively, for sure, until we meet him in heaven and ask.

 

 

DaveKerwin · Aug 20, 2002

Originally posted by Quaffer

So, it appears to me that we are in agreement that Jesus was the epitomy of health until He was hanging on the cross.  If you believe otherwise. . .I asked for your scripture ref.

On what birthday did you receive bags of gold, frankenscence, and myrh?  I believe it lasted until He did not need it anymore. 

2 Cor 9:8 (Amplified) my pref "And God is able to make all grace (every favor and earthly blessing) come to you in abundance, so that you may always and under all circumstances and whatever the need be self-sufficient [possessing enough to require no aid or support and furnished in abundance for every good work and charitable donation]

It's a blessing to be healthy.  It's a blessing to have enough to be self-sufficient and able to give to every good work and charitable donation.

I don't know any scripture that teaches that.  I don't teach it either.

I thought I did quote them for you Dave.  Sorry, if I missed some.

"It had to be".  Neither one of us will know absolutely, positively, for sure, until we meet him in heaven and ask.

I only said that God put him through the ultimate unhealthy situation, death on a cross. It didnt mention his health before he died. But we do know that he was in the desert for 40 days with no food, that can't be healthy.

myrrh and frankincense were very temporal, I think both are incense of some kind. Gold lasts a big longer, it could have been jewelry for all we know. I got a gold bracelet a few years ago. It sits upon my dresser in my room. I am not a rich man because I own it. this is a pointless argument.

So what does the "prosperity gospel" say about this person? :
Joe Nobody has an unknown illness, it causes him daily pain. He is not a man of big means, he takes the bus to work, and uses his sallary to pay rent on a beat up one bedroom apartment. He lives pay check to pay check, having no money for medical attention. Joe has been a christian for twenty years, and has been plugged into a local church since he was saved. He attempts to persue God daily, just like the rest of us. What do you have to say about Joe? Is he missing out because he has pain? Is he missing out because he doesnt have nice suits and a mercedes? Why doesn't he have better health? Why doesnt he have more money? Enlighten me.

Right, neither of us know for sure what Paul's thorn was, but the vast majority of biblical scholars say it was a physical ailement.

Now for the scripture:
The parts in brackets are NOT inspired, they are additions put in, so don't quote them as scripture!!!!!!!!! Lets view the verses in context.

2 Cor 9: 6-15

Sowing Generously

"Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. As it is written:
'He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor;
his righteousness endures forever.' Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.
This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God's people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift! "

This section is about sowing generously.
v8, God abounds in grace, because he is a graceful God (nothing about health and wealth here)
v8, God gives us all that we NEED so that we can do good works! (nothing about health and wealth here either)
Verse 8 says that God will give us what we need in order to do his work.

Remember that the ampilfied parts are additions. All that stuff about earthly blessings and charitable donations are ADDED, and should not be viewed as scripture. Here are 2 more translations of verse 8 for better understanding.

NASB:
"And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed"

NKJV:
"And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work"

This verse Obviously is about doing good deeds, and about how God allows us to do them. This is not about prospering in an eartly way as you tried to make it seem.

SpiritPsalmist · Aug 20, 2002

Originally posted by DaveKerwin

I only said that God put him through the ultimate unhealthy situation, death on a cross. It didnt mention his health before he died. But we do know that he was in the desert for 40 days with no food, that can't be healthy.

I know people who've gone on 40 day fasts and they got hungry but not sick 

myrrh and frankincense were very temporal, I think both are incense of some kind. Gold lasts a big longer, it could have been jewelry for all we know. I got a gold bracelet a few years ago. It sits upon my dresser in my room. I am not a rich man because I own it. this is a pointless argument.

These were kings who brought these gifts.  You think they brought only a little?

So what does the "prosperity gospel" say about this person? :
Joe Nobody has an unknown illness, it causes him daily pain. He is not a man of big means, he takes the bus to work, and uses his sallary to pay rent on a beat up one bedroom apartment. He lives pay check to pay check, having no money for medical attention. Joe has been a christian for twenty years, and has been plugged into a local church since he was saved. He attempts to persue God daily, just like the rest of us. What do you have to say about Joe? Is he missing out because he has pain? Is he missing out because he doesnt have nice suits and a mercedes? Why doesn't he have better health? Why doesnt he have more money? Enlighten me.

I cannot answer this question. I am not God.  I believe the though that if Joe Nobody gets before God with his Bible and asks the Holy Spirit to show him what he needs to do, if anything, that the Holy Spirit is faithful to show him.  That's how it worked with me.
[/color]
Nice suits?  Mercedes?  If Joe needs these things for what God has called him to do, God can supply Joe's need.

[/color]Right, neither of us know for sure what Paul's thorn was, but the vast majority of biblical scholars say it was a physical ailement.

Now for the scripture:
The parts in brackets are NOT inspired, they are additions put in, so don't quote them as scripture!!!!!!!!! Lets view the verses in context.

If you go to your Strongs Concordance, you'll find these same words.

2 Cor 9: 6-15

Sowing Generously

"Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. As it is written:
'He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor;
his righteousness endures forever.' Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.
This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God's people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift! "

This section is about sowing generously.

v8, God abounds in grace, because he is a graceful God (nothing about health and wealth here)

v8, God gives us all that we NEED so that we can do good works! (nothing about health and wealth here either)

Verse 8 says that God will give us what we need in order to do his work.

Remember that the ampilfied parts are additions. All that stuff about earthly blessings and charitable donations are ADDED, and should not be viewed as scripture. Here are 2 more translations of verse 8 for better understanding.

NASB:
"And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed"

NKJV:
"And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work"

This verse Obviously is about doing good deeds, and about how God allows us to do them. This is not about prospering in an eartly way as you tried to make it seem.

Hmm! So you say![/color]

What part of the word "all" disqualifies anything?

Sorry for the colors, I tried to fix it, but it won't fix.

DaveKerwin · Aug 20, 2002

It's not just me saying it, look at the text!!!

blank blank blank, so you can do good deeds!! Whatever preceeds "good deeds" is just there so you know what enables you to do them. How am I wrong here? Please show me.

Anyone else care to disect this verse, and shed some light ??

SpiritPsalmist · Aug 20, 2002

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
It's not just me saying it, look at the text!!!

blank blank blank, so you can do good deeds!! Whatever preceeds "good deeds" is just there so you know what enables you to do them. How am I wrong here? Please show me.

Anyone else care to disect this verse, and shed some light ??

KJV 2 Corinthians 9
<SUP>8</SUP>   And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

STRONGS CONCORDANCE

all:

1. individually

a. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

2. collectively

a. some of all types

GRACE:

1. Grace

a. that which afford joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech

2. good will, loving-kindness, favour

a. of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting His holy influence upno souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles virtues

3. what is due to grace

a. the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace

b. the token or proof of grace, benefit 1)a gift of grace 2) benefit, bounty

4. thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward.

ABOUND

1. to exceed a fixed number of measure, to be left over and above a certain number or measure.

a. to be over, to remain

b. to exist or be at hand in abundance 1) to be great (abundant). 2) a thing which comes in abundance, or overflows unto one, something falls to the lot of one in large measure. 3) to redound unto, turn out abundantly for, a thing

c. to abound, overflow 1) to be abundantly furnished with, to have in abundance, abound in (a thing), to be in affluence. 2) to be pre-eminent, to excell. 3) to excell more than, exceed.

2 to make to abound

a. to furnish one richly so that he has abundance

b. to make abundant or excellent.

 

Dave,

It looks to me like the Amplified got it right.  Part of the preface in the Amplified reads as follows:

It's purpose is to reveal, together with the single English word ewuivalent to each key Hebrew and Greek word, any other clarifying meanings that may be concealed by the traditional translation method. Perhaps for the first time in an English version of the Bible, the full meaning of the key words in the original text is available for the reader. In a sense, the creative use of amplification merely helps the reader comprehend what the Hebrew and Greek listener instinctively understood (as a matter of course).

I gotta go home now, have a good evening. 

Bye,

  :wave:

Andrew · Aug 20, 2002

Dave,

didnt see your post until now.

quote:"1. Jesus :
Who was not wealthy, who's health suffered badly. If God himself didn't hold riches,"

from the start you already carry an unfamiliar spirit and are preaching another Jesus, just like Louis does. so i see little point in reinterpreting the scriptures you have presented or giving you new scripture cause you'd just interpret it with the poverty/sickly spirit mentality.

If you dont want health and material blessings from God that's your call, if you insist Jesus and his apostles were a poor and sickly that's another "Jesus" plain and simple -- any baby Christian will tell you that.

So just tell God to channel your blessings (health and prosperity) to me and Quaffie since you dont want them. thanks.

LouisBooth · Aug 21, 2002

"Holy Spirit guided mentality says: "Hmmm, how can a man who can feed 5,000 men (exluding women and children) with 12 basketfuls leftover be poor!""

*chuckles* still poor just well fed. That's what Jesus always did, met NEEDS not wants. You don't NEED to be rich. God isn't a meal ticket

"Luke 2:21 says "at the end of 8 days of the birth of the baby"."

Umm...You think the wisemen came before the 8th day?

"But scripture does not tell us it was for the rest of His life. "

It was after christ left...he was still a carpender.

What's funny is it appears Christ was one too...

"Mar 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. "

as far as Joe being a carpenter his whole life..he sure was

"Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? "

"why would Jesus need a treasurer if there was no money? And, how could that treasurer regularly steal from it if there was no money? Judas was greedy. That's why he betrayed the Lord. "

The guy that keeps up with the money is far different then today's use of the word treasurer. Just as the church does, they shared everything, thus one person kept the stuff, no reason for them all do. If you want to address the regular stealing, post a verse.

"Where doed it say the disciples worred about getting money to feed the 5000? In John 6:5 Jesus asked Philip where they may buy bread to eat? "

Read it in context. Seems they were pretty worried in mark 6. Yes, in John 6 he exclams that it is a lot of money by the statement. If you're rich 200 isn't that much. Its a drop in the bucket.

It seems pretty clear to me that Christ came to give us spirutal blessings, not physical ones. He says as much several times.

LouisBooth · Aug 21, 2002

"from the start you already carry an unfamiliar spirit and are preaching another Jesus, just like Louis does. "

*sigh* no we are not preaching another Jesus.

Andrew · Aug 21, 2002

"It seems pretty clear to me that Christ came to give us spirutal blessings, not physical ones."

how many times must we show you this is bulldust!

cant believe you still insist on denying these scriptures:

31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek

for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33* But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Mt 7:11* If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.
3* Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
4 Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
5* Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
6 Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
8* The LORD shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
11 And the LORD shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
12* The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.

its obvious you wont repent so I'm just posting these for the benefit of others.

Susan · Aug 21, 2002

"2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.
3* Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
4 Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
5* Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
6 Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
8* The LORD shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
11 And the LORD shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
12* The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow."

How do you connect this OT passage to the NT one? Maybe "Mt 7:11* If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" means that God will give us better things. Spiritual blessings are FAR better than material ones. They last forever. Material blessings are good, and I often wish i had more hehe, but they are definitely NOT God's best.
To KNOW that you are saved forever, to know that you have been forgiven, to know that you can tell others about Jesus and what He did for them, to live freely is better than any financial blessing.

BTW financial *blessings* often are not always the best because caring for them and protecting them can consume life. For instance, if I had a $10,000 ring, I wouldn't wear it and I would live in fear of thieves stealing it. However my most expensive ring (my purity ring with a blue topaz stone that I got for my 18th birthday) cost less than $100 dollars. I wear that almost everywhere I go, and I don't fear being robbed for it unless I am in a REALLY bad neighborhood.

Susan · Aug 21, 2002

Originally posted by Andrew
Dave,

didnt see your post until now.

quote:"1. Jesus :
Who was not wealthy, who's health suffered badly. If God himself didn't hold riches,"

from the start you already carry an unfamiliar spirit and are preaching another Jesus, just like Louis does.

If you dont want health and material blessings from God that's your call, if you insist Jesus and his apostles were a poor and sickly that's another "Jesus" plain and simple -- any baby Christian will tell you that.

You just accused those outside of Word Faith teaching to be cultists. If you read the context around that passage about "another Jesus" you see it is referring to non-Christian cultists.

Are you calling us non-Christians simply because we are not in agreement with a secondary or even tertiary doctrine?

Look, this post I quoted is ridiculing or bashing someone else's Christian faith.

any baby Christian will tell you that.
Not any "baby Christian," (universal argumentation, a logical fallacy in this context) and would you listen to a baby for advice in anything of the world? Would you ask a baby for counsel? NO. For obvious reasons you would ask an adult, and not one that talked like a baby. Would it not be responsible to do the same in spiritual matters?

BTW Chronological age is not a measurement of a Christian's not being a "baby" in the faith. I have met some people who were a year old or less in the faith chronologically, but who are a lot deeper and a lot stronger than I. (I've been a Christian for 4 years, 5 this November)

Andrew · Aug 21, 2002

Susan,

1. I'm not against spiritual blessings. Of cse they are good and sometimes better. What I was going against was the insistence that God only blesses with spiritual things in this physical earth.

2. Sometimes a physical blessing may be better/more practical for the time being. eg it's better to send rice and clothes to a community struck by flood/famine then to send spiritual things they cant see or use. and of cse you need to be blessed physically with those things first or with money to buy those things b4 you can sponsor & ship those things. that's plain common sense.

3. If someone preaches that Jesus was sickly and had teenage problems like acne and God knows what else, I have no qualms saying that he is preaching another Jesus. Ditto to anyone who preaches that Jesus had sex with Mary, sinned, was gay, Negro, wasnt really God, didnt really die etc.

4. You'll will find that "baby Christians" those who have just been born again and have not have their minds corrupted with nonsense theology, and who are still sensitive in their spirit, will have no problem believing God heals and prospers. I've seen that with my own eyes.

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