Legalism: A discussion

Pastor N.B. · Aug 18, 2002

Pastor N.B. here:
The hardest 'lesson' to accept is that there is a difference between hating sin & loving the sinner. ONLY a converted person can understand this!
And there is [NO] disdain on my part for any [poster] that I have read from here. (but we should quickly 'fess' up mistakes made)

Hate sin & Love the sinner? Case in point:
Los Angeles Times, 2/5/93 (in part)
Pope John Paul 11 sought common ground with believers in voodoo Thursday, suggesting they would not betray their traditional faith by converting to Christianity."

Again, it is not my agenda to read the Pope's mind, yet [the message] is the same one that seems to be comming across of this thread :scratch:

You know? No law! ONLY BELIEVE IN CHRIST. Converting to Christianity or converting to 'c'hristianity? Which TWO here would be the leagalist, & why is the question.
***
-Added emphasis-

Now: On the other subject of law & Gospel. Everlasting has NO origin! Both are EVERLASTING. Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20. Calvary was eternally forordained! It was only the 'plan' that was brought for as it was needed.
And, as EVERLASTING AS THIS GOSPEL IS, SO THE ETERNAL EVERLASTING LAW OF GOD WAS & IS!

If no law, there no sin, and no Gospel! And Christ need not have died! Read Rev. 22:9!) Please now, read it :

SIN: It has a start & it has a mature finish. A mature Christian or an mature sinner! (Cain for example, Israel of old for another, Lucifer for another)
"To him that KNOWEST to do good and [do it not] is sin" KNOWN SIN! OK: At the start of the converted ones new life, we sin perhaps daily without never knowing it. Now what does the above verse say, about KNOWING TO DO GOOD??
And then we see that sin that Peter did? "and he went out and wept bitterly"! We should feel agony when we SIN KNOWINGLY! Heb. 6:6.

Can we be forgiven for this sin? This is where it gets from Heb.5 to Heb. 6!
From milk to meat. Yes, in the early stages even this sin can be forgiven. But it is an very dangerous thing to Grieve & Quench the Holy Spirits leading. Rom. 8:14. If we steal today, it is easier to steal tomorrow! (and so on) And when we KNOW that sin is OPEN sin, and we still continue on, we are on dangerous ground! (Sunday sacredness for example)

Scripture please! James 2:10-12 for the above. And note this prayer of David? David was a sinner of open known sin. It was after this experience that the Psalms were written. (you do remember the Master telling Peter, [after] thou art converted, go teach the brethern?)
Anyway, in Psalms 19:13 we see the 'starting point of sin & the end results of sin'. Notice the Word 'ALSO FROM', & remember KNOWN SIN that BECOMES THAT OF PRESUMPTION!

"Keep back thy servant ALSO FROM 'presumptuous sins'; (even in the plural) let them not have 'dominion over me;' (remember these highlights)
then shall I be upright, and innocent from the GREAT TRANGRESSION."

Now, we surely know what we are being told by the Master Himself in Matt. 12:31-32. (Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost) And what the start of sin is. All & any sin, starts with the Eternal Royal Universal COVENANT. (Worlds created & only fallen angels, ok?) We are told that "sin is the trangression of the Law". They ALL have this Royal Law! Are they UNDER IT? NO, if they broke it they would be, they are at Liberty as they kept it. But sin will never arise a second time. ALL WILL BE TESTED AND BE MATURE IN CHRIST!

David stated in his (inspired) prayer to be kept 'also' from PRESUMPTIOUS sins'! This is the Quenched & Grieved away ending, of the MATURE Christian as well as the sinner. This is continuing on in sin regardless of what pain & grief it caused Christ upon the cross, years before! (pluss the GodHead!)

Last verses will be : John 5:16-17 in part, & verse 18 ibide. is explained in Phil. 4:12. "Not as though we had [already attained, either were already perfect: [BUT I FOLLOW AFTER].." GROWTH! CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT! Na. 1:9 "SIN WILL NOT ARISE THE SECOND TIME" (safe to save)

But lets not miss the point! Not PERFECT? But [FOLLOW AFTER!] Rom. 8:14 & Rom. 8:! Now comes to view in verse 15... ???

"Let us therefore, [as many as be perfect] be thus minded. and 'if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you'"
Then Paul in inspiration tells what we ARE, if 'IN' Christ Jesus? (still our 'free' choice!)
In verse 16 we see a contradiction as to what was seen in verse 12 of Phil. 3, for the 'unconverted' to understand?

He pen's:
"Nevertheless, whereto 'we have already attained,' let us' walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing."

The verses of John 5:16-17 in part.
"If any man see his brother [sin a sin which IS NOT UNTO DEATH] (remember what Christ said about open blasphemy?) he shall ask, and [He shall give him life for them that sin 'not' unto death]. There [is a sin unto death.; I do not say that he shall pray for it.]

[ALL UNRIGHTOUSNESS IS SIN: (ten commandments, Rolal Law Breaking)
AND THERE IS A SIN UNTO DEATH."

Bottom Line: The Perfect created Angels sinned. They were not immediately
cast out of heaven. (How long was the Eternal Covenant & Eternal Gospel, in ETERNITY??)
They did not at first sin the sin against the Holy Ghost, but it was sin! From Matt. 25:1 we see a 50-50% ratio. But 1/3 were rejected in the 'final Mature' rejection of the Covenant of God & CHRIST. And yes, they were tested as well as we are, and the same provisions given to us was (and is) given to them! "IF" See Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9 again.

In the Master's quickly fininishing work for the 'House of God First' (1 Peter 4:17)
Pastor N.B.

mjwhite · Aug 19, 2002

Dear N.B.,

I asked, what is your definition of a legalist?

You responded [although i do not know if your response was meant to address my question, so if it was not then please overlook]

you said...
Hate sin & Love the sinner? Case in point:
Los Angeles Times, 2/5/93 (in part)
Pope John Paul 11 sought common ground with believers in voodoo Thursday, suggesting they would not betray their traditional faith by converting to Christianity."

Again, it is not my agenda to read the Pope's mind, yet [the message] is the same one that seems to be comming across of this thread
You know? No law! ONLY BELIEVE IN CHRIST. Converting to Christianity or converting to 'c'hristianity? Which TWO here would be the leagalist, & why is the question.

Who on this thread is advocating voodoo?
Please explain what you are saying when you write this: Converting to Christianity or converting to 'c'hristianity? Is that a typo? And since it looks like a typo to me, then your question: Which TWO here would be the leagalist, & why makes no sense to me, would you please explain.

thanks,
mike

Pastor N.B. · Aug 19, 2002

Originally posted by mjwhite
Dear Pastor N.B.
(word added, edited by me Mon. Aug. 19/2002 P/N/B/)
you said,
Now comes the concept of what legalism is: All man is created with an desire to worship. To be converted is to be recreated with the LOVE OF CHRIST in our heart. If this has been done, then we now have Christ to be our MASTER. And we serve (WORK) for Him because we [now] LOVE HIM.

Yet, if one tries to do any work, or the keeping of the ten commandments to 'earn' salvation, this is legalism. With the exception of keeping the conditions of the Covenant by accepting the Master & His provisions because He tells us to, but still, NOT TO EARN SALVATION.
Most uncoverted professed, call an love relationship [of obedience] to the Master's commandments, leagalism, perhaps? Yet it is impossible to be converted without the Holy Ghost, or without obedience! Acts 5:32. And 'obedience' to what? The 'everlasting Covenant' (Ten commandments)

It seems i agree with all of this, except what you mean by obedience. If one believes in their heart that God has raised Him from the dead, and confesses with their mouth that He is Lord they will be saved. Obedience follows because one's heart is grateful to God and seeks to return His love by obeying.
*********

Pastor N.B. here:
I thought that this was your post MJ?
Sounds as if you know what I believe legalism is, as you say that you seem to agree. Do you "BELIEVE THAT ANY 'FAITH' WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD"??
In clear words? FAITH, BELIEF, is [nothing more] than an profession, without WORKS. Or else a person is a DEAD soul. It is impossible to live without a living FAITH! Either Christ or 's'atan's work is done, as depending on who is the persons master? And both choices have an 'desire' created! try Gen 4:7. Never does one DO THEIR OWN THING! Read Eph. 6:12

Do you think that the ones believing in their heart that Jesus was raised from the dead are all saved??

First: There are conditions to all Covenant Promisses. Second, we can never omit other INSPIRATION for the True meaning. The Word is the EVERLASTING Gospel & the Everlasting COVENANT. (what does EVERLASTING MEAN? It is impossible to have one (Christ) with out the other! see 1 Cor. 14:32 & 2 Tim. 3:16 and Isa. 28: 9-10. All others in these Isa. verses are 'drunkards' on the 'intoxicant wine of Babylon', even to the degree that 'they err in vision' and they 'stumble in judgment'. (spiritual, that is!)

(try the Matt. 4:6 promise quoted by the devil to Christ, this is a promised
quote almost Word for Word as is seen from Psalms 91:11. And where did Christ get His 'condition' for the promise from? try Deut. 6:16)

Do you not BELIEVE THAT THE 'd'EVILS ALSO BELIEVE THIS verse that you use? And 'his' ones in John 12:42-43 "BELIEVED"!! This was NO FAKE [BELIEF]! But their LOVE was for something else? Read it! And confessing with the [mouth]? This confession is WORTHLESS with out WORKS TO BACK UP THE PROFESSION! Again, ["IF"] ye LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS!
P/N/B/

mjwhite · Aug 19, 2002

Dear N.B.,

I am not denying that one who makes a true confession will back it up with the works prepared beforehand that they should walk in them.

One who truly believes will confess, a work in itself. Those who do not truly believe, like those Pharisees in John 12:42-43, will not yet confess. Belief is like a seed planted, it is in the ground and physically there but one cannot see evidence of it until it breaks the earth and stretches toward the sun. Those who have the Spirit are the children of God, and they truly believe. Those without the Spirit are not the children of God and though they profess Christ, their lives show they have not submitted to His Lordship.

But in my definition of a legalist, one is a legalist not because they strive to obey the law, for legalists do strive to obey the law. They are like the Pharisee who looks down at the other. The Pharisee looked down BECAUSE he thought that his attempts at keeping the law found some favor with God.

A legalist seeks to add his own works of righteousness to the work of the Lord in order that he [the legalist] might be found pleasing to God and therefore be spared hell and given heaven.

Romans 11:6 says that.. "And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."

And we are saved by grace alone. [Ephesians 2:5].
For it is by grace we have been saved through faith -and this is not of ourselves but a gift from God- not of works lest any man should boast.

But we are so created to do good works. Therefore let any one who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity [2nd Tim 2:19]

BUT are we all not sinners? Do we always treat others right? Do we always love God with all of our heart, body mind and soul? ALWAYS?

No, we are sinners. We continue to deserve condemnation by our acts. James tells us that whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumble at one point is guilty of all.

But we are not under law but grace. We live not to obey the law, but to show our love and gratitude to the One who has saved us despite our sins and our sinning.

If we think we are His [because we say we believe] but do not care what He desires [for us to walk as He walked], we show that we are not led by the Spirit and therefore not the children of God.

Bottom line:
True faith saves because it is by grace alone. Works are the fruit of our salvation, not the way we stay saved. A legalist is one who thinks that his performance of good works somehow makes him safe to save.

In Him, mike

Pastor N.B. · Aug 19, 2002

I see nothing wrong with that! (at first glance)
I call it the 'Rightousness of the Master, BY FAITH!' Yet, it is & was never anything new! Heb. 11.

Once again, EVERLASTING GOSPEL & EVERLASTING COVENANT & by free choice!

"SEE, I HAVE SET BEFORE THEE THIS DAY LIFE AND GOOD AND DEATH AND EVIL; IN THAT I COMMAND THIS DAY TO LOVE THE LORD THY GOD, TO WALK IN HIS WAYS, AND TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS AND HIS JUDGEMENTS, THAT THOU MAYEST LIVE AND MULTIPLY: AND THE LORD GOD SHALL BLESS THEE IN THE LAND WHETHER THOU GOEST TO POSSESS IT.

I CALL HEAVEN AND EARTH TO {RECORD} THIS DAY AGAINST YOU, THAT [I HAVE SET BEFORE YOU LIFE AND DEATH] ... [THEREFORE *CHOOSE LIFE, THAT BOTH THOU AND THY SEED MAY LIVE]". Deut. 30:15-19 only in part! Read verse 17-18 (by the way, i can read this large print better! I am not hollering at anybody.)
P/N/B/

Rafael · Aug 20, 2002

Thank you both for coming together. This is a good study/debate on legalism. As with all things, there is balance. Faith without works is dead, yet works without love is hollow and meaningless.

I, for one, appreciate your hard work and dedication to the truth and bring away much from the Word of God and His Spirit.

Eph.4:1 ¶ I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 ¶ With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3  Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

mjwhite · Aug 20, 2002

DEAR N.B.

sOMETIMES WE ASSUME BASED ON PAST EXPERIENCES WITH OTHERS.
I CAN BE AS GUILTY OF THAT AS ANYONE.

tHANKS BE TO THE LORD FOR HIS SAVING GRACE, LET US WALK IN IT.

IN HIS LOVE,
MIKE

Pastor N.B. · Aug 20, 2002

Originally posted by mjwhite
Dear N.B.,

(zapped for content)

Who on this thread is advocating voodoo?

****
P/N/B/ here:
M.J., the context of [many] folks thinking is "only believe". It matters not what you are, or who you are, just convert to christianity by professing a belief. (little c) Works amount to nothing! Voodo, vicar of 'c'hrist, aids infested priests, with [open] moral sins? Which are all televised & news documented fact today! (not mind reading ones) Just 'convert to christianity' is the Popes 'printed' message to these voodoos. It matter nothing about carrying on with your 'traditional' work.

Please pay close attention here: There are many saved at the present time in all faiths (folds) including Catholics, yet all the while living in ignorance. And these ones LOVE CHRIST their Master! But what happen's when we or they get MORE TRUTH?? Read John 10:16 and Rev. 18:4 or Hosea 4:6's first part. It also tells what the end will be for these [if] they will not comply. TRUE LOVE WILL BE THE MOTIVE!

A faith with an works only belief, saves even the 'd'evil. (legalism) And that is like counting rosary beads. It is pure works ALONE, & is not the EVERLASTING GOSPEL! Yet, a faith without the works of LOVE, is also still, a false Gospel! And only a converted person understands this. John 3:3 or 1 John 4:6.

Tipo??
God is God M.J., & a 'g'od is NO GOD. A true Christian starts with a Capital C,
and a 'c'hristian in profession only starts with a little 'c'. The 'd'evil in my thinking needs no capital lettering! So, if these are professed 'c'hristians ONLY? and grouped in yoked membership with false doctrine **knowingly, they are Legalist without the Master. Read again Joshus 7:12' last part of verse or Rev. 3:9's verse & Rev. 18:4. It can NEVER be both ways!)

And unity will come! But never [this way!]

(added emphasis)

end of P/N/B/ remarks.
****

Please explain what you are saying when you write this: Converting to Christianity or converting to 'c'hristianity? Is that a typo? And since it looks like a typo to me, then your question: Which TWO here would be the leagalist, & why makes no sense to me, would you please explain.

thanks,
mike

Pastor N.B. · Oct 3, 2002

Paul said that when he was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child, but when he became a man, he put away childish things! (pouting perhaps)

From the 'milk' to the 'meat'. Where is everone at :sleep:

? Matt. 25's ALL SLEEPING? Or perhaps they are just playing 'c'hristian?

Anyhow, Pauls writing from inspiration in 1 Cor. 13 is all about TRUE AGAPE LOVE! I don't think that verse 11 is understood by most here that [had] been posting. It was when I was a child, that we used to get upset in the 'childs' play of marbels, and would pick them up & go home! By the way, that too, is LEGALISM! ---P/N/B/

Pastor N.B. · Oct 28, 2002

P/N/B/ here Lord:
:idea:

Well it looks like we need to read Matt. 25? They are ALL ASLEEP You say! That is what You said Lord, so are any of these ones LEGALISTS?
Wheat & Tares?

Or are the LEGALISTS the ones that awakened ALL these SLEEPING ones [from the outside] in the [MIDNIGHT CRY]! (of Matt. 10:5-38) And five WISE & five FOOLISH, 1/2 of ALL of these Virgins, only, have OIL IN THEIR LAMPS?? What about the ones GIVING THE MIDNIGHT CRY LORD??

And Matt. 25:6 "Go ye OUT to meet Him" Are you not inside a Virgin Denomination Lord? :help:

Try Rev. 18:4.

********

Originally posted by Pastor N.B.
Paul said that when he was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child, but when he became a man, he put away childish things! (pouting perhaps)

From the 'milk' to the 'meat'. Where is everone at ? Matt. 25's ALL SLEEPING? Or perhaps they are just playing 'c'hristian?

Anyhow, Pauls writing from inspiration in 1 Cor. 13 is all about TRUE AGAPE LOVE! I don't think that verse 11 is understood by most here that [had] been posting. It was when I was a child, that we used to get upset in the 'childs' play of marbels, and would pick them up & go home! By the way, that too, is LEGALISM! ---P/N/B/

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Legalism: A discussion

Pastor N.B.

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