Deliberate Sin - Not Forgiven?

I think an important aspect that is being overlooked is that the book of Hebrews was written to the Hebrews(I am not saying that it doesn't apply to us). During this time Hebrew Christians were being severely persecuted and were trying to go back to the law. I believe the verses in question are referring to animal sacrifices, which unsaved Jews were still performing. Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for all of our sins.

I have learnt this, you can't get away with just asking forgiveness for a sin, be repentant one minute and then later go back on that repentance and go back to committing it again! God knows the future of every person and if he sees that you are going to deliberately commit that sin again and go back on your repentance he DOES NOT forgive you. We cannot trifle with God who is omnipotent and cannot be fooled by our temporary repentance even if we convince ourselves at the time that we are truly repentant and will never commit that sin again as I often did.
I don't believe that a person can lose their salvation, because I believe that God will only give salvation in the first place to someone that he sees will remain faithful to him until death effectively making an eternal commitment to him. He will not give salvation in the first place to someone who is going to go back eternally on that commitment- God is not stupid! Sometimes God will give people a second chance to people who do not get saved because they do not make a genuine eternal commitment, but don't eternally reject Christ- this what I believe has happened to people who have testified that they have fallen away and come back but have been told by God that it is their final chance to make an eternal commitment to Jesus.
As for those who believe that OSAS = License to sin it isn't!!!!!!! I never saw salvation as a license to sin, but fell away through deliberate sin- for over 18 months I have had absolutely no assurance of salvation and forgiveness despite desperately trying many times, trying in vain to recommit my life to Jesus- I have totally lost all sense of the presence and love of God in my life for well over a year now. Often I feel eternally condemned -that I was never truly saved and have committed the unpardonable sin, though if I have, it is not something I ever wanted to commit or deliberately committed. My conscience is seared and doesn't work at all no matter what which makes me fear that I am eternally lost.
In all honesty, things are so bad now that I have just now come to the point of eventually giving up until God decides to give me any hope- I have tried absolutely everything now including trying to give up all my sins and abstain from all of them as a last resort with little success- I trusted in Jesus as my Lord and Saviour years ago and have tried to affirm that commitment many times including many times whenever I doubted before this crisis came upon me 18 months ago, but absolutely nothing has happened to give me any hope or assurance that when I die I will go to heaven.
I will never give up hope that one day God will call my name and bring me back to him and restore my faith and hope, but until then there is nothing more I can do and it is up to God now to bring me back- I have tried everything possible to come back to God and have failed.
Believe me there is an EXTREMELY HIGH COST to deliberate sin, even for those who are sure that they are right with God as I once thought I was.

DBM,

My heart really hurt, reading your post - I guess I recognize a lot of myself in there. But I have never felt abandoned by God. My conscience has surely been seared, too. But the funny thing is, I KNOW when I'm supposed to be feeling or thinking something I'm not. So I act on the knowledge without the conviction. The funny thing is, as you do that, "acting" as if you did have it, it slowly returns! God can replace what the locusts have stolen, I have seen it in my life. It usually isn't all at once, and sometimes you have to reflect over long stretches of time to see it. Some things take years to heal.

Feeling distant from God is hard. David felt it too - perhaps you should bury yourself in his Psalms. For me, I feel that the problem has ever been my inability to come to Him properly, sin or no, although perhaps he is proving you.

Are you trying to do this alone? I think it would be beneficial to be a member of a Christian group. I sometimes find myself face to face with God while loving / serving someone else. Fast? Pray for long stretches? Expose yourself to beauty of landscape or music or art? Just some suggestions, perhaps you've been through them all.

With respect, I don't agree with your repentance theory. Repentance is contriteness with intent to correct. If you think you have it, you do. God knows we can stumble. Can anyone claim they've been sinless in actions since they were born again? *waits for reply... * Umm... silence. (Except for Dave_Ulchers claiming that someone else is doing it that is...) You WILL sin again while you live. Everything else is a matter of degree. When Christ died for you, all your future sins were forgiven, both the ones behind you now, and the ones to come, if you are in Him. Covered. Righteous. Blood bought and sealed. Agree with your eternal security ideas and the idea here that the subject matter of Hebrews is over the issue of sacrifice. Remember though, sometimes salvation is "as if by fire" or whatever the phrase is to say you just barely made it, with no good works to show. Let's not settle for that by sinning!

I'm sorry to have rambled a bit. I will pray for you, friend, that the freshness and power of new life will again come upon you, and that you will awaken to the Holy Spirit working in you.

In Christ,

I'm postive that repentance theory is wrong. Reading the Bible, especially the NT, I read that God is a God of Love and Mercy. A Love and Mercy, that no one said we deserved, but even so God gives it freely! Don't you remember the thief on the cross, next to Jesus? If he himself can get salvation like **snaps** that, surely so can we.

About a month ago I abandoned God. Abandoned Him. Why? I dunno, lusts, depression, maybe because I was drownding in my own sin. But guess what, God never abandoned me. As a matter-of-fact, he lasso-ed me with a 50ft rope, and pulled me back into him. Even more, he brought me closer to him, and has given me more love and more insight that I deserve!

I want to post th oh so popoular and powerful Bible Scripture. You all know it.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world , that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life .

Nick---God does sometimes tend to chase us down when we wander, doesn't He?
JRMorganJR----Your post was a tremendous blessing to me. Ramble anytime. God stays where He is. He doesn't change. His love doesn't stop. Sometimes it is unproductive to go by feelings. Sometimes we just have to go by His truth. I think OUR obedience tends to make us feel the feelings, but whether we feel them or not, the Truth doesn't change. He loves us, He died for us. Period. He took our blame. It is done.

The biggest form of temptation that I have encountered is when Satan convinces you that a sin is not sinful (I hope you see what I mean...)

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

I notice here the word "were" is used, does this mean we aren't suppossed to sin after salvation?

I notice here the word "were" is used, does this mean we aren't suppossed to sin after salvation?

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I don't think the grammar says that at all, it's simply stating that Jesus died for us AS sinners, rather than during the state where our sins were covered. In other words, he loved us even as we were, dirty and sin-ridden, as opposed to what we'll be once we're glorified or as opposed to our "saved" state where our sins our covered. I think it's an impossible stretch to interpret that as saying that a requirement for salvation is perpetual sinlessness after being born again.

But I have to agree, we aren't supposed to sin after salvation. It's just that fallen world / corrupt/perishable body thing keeps getting in the way!

"Jesus himself says in Matthew that all sins are forgiven except the sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit"

Hmm...look at the text in greek. Is he saying they are FORGIVEABLE, or forgiven...big difference.

"I notice here the word "were" is used, does this mean we aren't suppossed to sin after salvation?"

Yup, you have to think out of the box to get what he is saying here I think. Sin can no longer exsist in us at all because of Christ's covering for us. So when you sin, you really don't sin...wierd huh? Okay, think of it this way. When christ died he was perfect and so sin couldn't "attach" itself to him, so he took on our sin and it basically suffocated because it had nothing to "feed" on, thus sin died at the cross for those who are believers. That is why we are free from the Power of sin. It can no longer hurt us. We still sin as christians but the sin nature is dead and gone thus we don't have a sin nature after being "saved". Did that help at all?

Think about this:

1. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

When we were sinners, did our good deeds earn us righteousness? No. We couldnt change what Adam had done to us. Likewise, now that we transformed rigtheous by His blood, can our sinning earn us sinnership? No. Cos we cant go back into history and undo what Jesus did. If you say sinning can cause us to lose salvation, then you are saying that Jesus's work is inferior to Adam's, which is the opp of what Romans 5 is saying.

2, We ALREADY HAVE forgiveness. Here's a simple test. If u have a PC Bible, do a word search in the whole Bible for the words forgiveness, forgive, forgiven. Look through the list generated. You will discover that, AFTER THE CROSS, it is always "forgiven" and "have forgivness" -- unconditional as opp to conditional b4 the cross. Now, have u ever wondered why when Paul boasts about Abraham's faith in Hebrews, all Abraham's mistakes/failures are some how left out? But when you read in the OT, Abraham "screwed up" a lot. The Holy Spirit does not record his mistakes.

so pls rightly divide the word, dont take something from the OT or b4 the cross, lump it with after the cross, and talk as if Jesus did not die. There's a big diff after the cross.

3. Consider the OT. The priest goes into the holy of holies once a year using blood of bulls and goats to atone for the sins of Israel. The nation's sin are covered for ONE year. The ppl walk away happy when the sacrifice is accepted. They go scot-free cos of a scapegoat (no pun intended). Now, if we think the moment we sin we can lose it, then we are saying the Jesus blood is inferior than the blood of bulls and goats! At least the OT Jews had it better than us! Their blood was good for a year, our Jesus' blood, good until we sin! what nonsense.

Good post Andrew!

This is good for us to discuss and understand what the scripture actually states. There seems to be alot of confusion regarding sin.

In this thread there are a lot of posts stating that if we sin after salvation - we are doomed.

I have been involved in another post where I am seeing there are those that believe Christians CANNOT sin.

Jesus knew that once we had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we would be in a battle. That battle comes from the Spirit and the flesh being in conflict. Gal 5:17 "For the flesh set its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please."

God knew that would take place within us when we accepted His Son as our Savior - that is why he provided the means of forgiveness and Jesus' blood as the sacrificial lamb to cover our sins.

DBM...your words spoke exactly what I feel...I feel the same way...

Originally posted by LouisBooth.........So when you sin, you really don't sin...wierd huh?

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So what of the sin of Ananias and Sapphira? Acts 5: 1-11.  It appears that when they sinned they really sinned.

Dear Soulsisterclair, Christie, Shane Roast, Lambslove, Sevusan, Terpswm, 2002 Christian,

(Hebrews 10:26,27) is refering to animal sacrifices no longer being needed to cover sins after Jesus became the sacrifice. Judgement is reserved for those who refuse the payment, this scripture is not refering to a saved individual under grace. Read (Hebrews 10;1-4)

It's refering to a Backsliden Jewish nation under a covenant. (Hebrews 8:10)

"So what of the sin of Ananias and Sapphira? Acts 5: 1-11. It appears that when they sinned they really sinned."

good question, now, does it anywhere say they were christians?

Dear Andrew;

How refreshing seeing someone "Rightly divide"  (2 Timothy 2:15) It's amazing to find so few Christians that even care to acknowledge or defend this passage of scripture in these latter days as fortold. (2 Timothy 4:3,4) What a shame to see such a lack of interest in those given rightly divided answers to their questions not even having the curtasy of answer your post. Just goes to show how unpopular truth is.

In short keep on defending Paul's message of grace and remember that our labor in Christ is not in vain! (Galatians 2:5)

Jesus' blood atonement on the cross covers sins that are in our past.

Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

NASB, NRSV "the sins previously committed"

Future life is based on the water, not the blood.

"through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." Titus 3:5, NRSV

"One of the soldiers with a spear pierced His side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of Him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on Him whom they pierced." John 19:34-37.

When the soldier pierced the side of Jesus as He hung upon the cross, there came out two distinct streams, one of blood, the other of water. The blood was to wash away the sins of those who should believe in His name, and the water was to represent that living water which is obtained from Jesus to give life to the believer.

Dear Newbie;

In post #38 did you by any chance highlight "Sins that are past" (Romans 3:25) to suggest Christ had'nt paid for present and future sins also?

If so I suggest you read this scripture carefully!

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (Colossians 2:13)