zeeshan

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Good Morning,
I hope you are well, s0uljah.

Would you please tell me what you mean by original form? Also, could you please explain how the Koran, having been developed over time itself, is "original?"

By original, I mean the word revealed to Jesus(pbuh) by God...the actual words revealed to him when he was on this Earth.
The Holy Quran was revealed to Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) over time (over the course of about 23 years). It is original since every verse in the Quran is still the same as it was when it was revealed.

Also, are you familiar with the Gospels in our Bible, and that we have dated the earliest of them to around 40-60 A.D.?

Now I am.

Ok, zeeshan, if you don't want to respond to my above post, how about explaining how people making up miracles that Muhammed did many years after he lived is an "original form"?

Can you please specify which miracles you are referring to? What miracles do you think people are making up many years after these miracles were given by the God to the prophet Mohammad(pbuh)?

Zeeshan.
 
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By original, I mean the word revealed to Jesus(pbuh) by God...the actual words revealed to him when he was on this Earth.
The Holy Quran was revealed to Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) over time (over the course of about 23 years). It is original since every verse in the Quran is still the same as it was when it was revealed.

The Word wasn't revealed to Jesus, according to the Bible. Jesus is the Word, and He exists eternally...i.e. "before Abraham was, I AM".

Jesus never told anyone to write anything down. The Gospels are direct accounts given by His followers, which appear in slightly differing forms throughout the time of early Christianity.

These Gospels are the originals, and there is no evidence of the Church adding to them over the years. I believe this is a misconception or an outright deception.
 
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zeeshan

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Good Morning,

Yunus 10 : 94

YUSUFALI: If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.
PICKTHAL: And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.
SHAKIR: But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

You are right...the God is telling prophet Muhammad(pbuh) to inquire from the people of the book (Christians and Jews) in this case. There are two things to note here:
1) We do not believe that the present day version of the Bible is the 'original' one (I have already explained what I mean by original). However, this does not mean that everything in the present day Bible has been changed from its 'original' form...rather it means that we believe that not every word in the Bible is the same today as it was when it was revealed to Jesus(pbuh). This leaves the possibility of atleast some passages in the Bible still being 'original' or having the same meaning as the 'original'...and ofcourse the God is All-Knowing so He knows which passages have been changed and which passages still have the same meaning as the 'original' and it is easy for Him to direct us towards those passages which still reflect the truth. (->that might not be the best way to put it but I hope you understand what I am trying to say.)
2) The context of the above quoted verse: The above verse was revealed as a result of some of the Christians and Jews rejecting the prophethood of the prophet Muhammad(pbuh) in his lifetime. It is pointed out here that the arrival of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) has been predicted in the Bible and the people of the book know this...however some of them choose to hide it. Infact, we believe that there is atleast one passage (maybe more) in the present day version of the Bible that refers to this prediction of the arrival of the prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and there are many arguments which one can use to conclude that the particular Biblical passage(s) actually refer to the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). I think that a very good place to read about these arguments is at the following website:
http://www.orst.edu/groups/msa/books/muhammad.html

Zeeshan.
 
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Originally posted by s0uljah
Please consider and address this argument:

Muslims (and rarely some Christians) apparently think that Jesus isn't God, but rather, a prophet or "good" moral teacher, etc.

This is the one thing that Jesus can not be, since He said that He was God.  If he wasn't God, then he would either be a liar, lunatic, or a devil, for saying that He was. 

He can't be a good moral teacher and claim to be God, unless He is God!

Your only escape out of this logical contradiction is to say that Jesus never said that He was God.  Well, that is clearly refuted by scripture...tons of it.  I have posted it before, want me to again?  If you think that this scripture is invalid, on what basis can you make that assumption? 

First of all, Isa(AS) only appeared to claim he was g-d. Readers are drawing false conclusions. The gospel accounts conflict on this matter, so the rational conclusion to me is that someone put words in the mouth of Isa(AS).

Please post the scriptures you think show that Isa(AS) said he was g-d.

Also the christian argument that you post which says that Isa(AS) was either a liar or g-d is misleading to naive readers. There are other possible conclusions, such as Isa)AS) was neither liar or g-d, but people assumed that he was g-d. Or people simply put conflicting words in his mouth to make him look like a liar.

peace and blessings
assalamu-alaikum'
shalom
 
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Ok, here you go...I hope you actually read them:

Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.

Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God (you heard said / but I say to you).

Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sin.

Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath." He is the Lord of God's law = God.

Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.

Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord." "The Lord has need of them."

Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.

Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God.

Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said "tell how much God has done for you." And the man declared how much Jesus did.

Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.

Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out.

John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. This Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God.

John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to Him by the Father.

John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father - whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."

John 8:12 - Jesus says "I am the light of the world." - 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.

John 8:19 - Jesus says, "if you knew me, you would know my Father also."

John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.

John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Exodus 3:14 - I AM = Yahweh.

John 10:18 - Jesus says He has the power to lay down His life and take it up again - Gal. 1:1 - God raised Jesus to life.

John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." They are equal. The Jews even claimed Jesus made Himself equal to God. John 14:28 - "the Father is greater than I" cannot contradict John 10:30. Refers to human messianic role as servant and slave.

John 10:36 - again, Jesus claims that He is "the Son of God."

John 10:38; 14:10 - "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" = the Father and Son are equal.

John 12:45 - Jesus says, "He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." God the Father is equal to God the Son.

John 13:13 - Jesus says you call me Teacher and Lord and you are right for so I AM.

John 14:6 - Jesus says "I am the way, and the truth and the life." Only God is the way, the truth and the life.

John 16:15 - Jesus says, "all things that the Father has are Mine." Jesus has everything God has which makes Him God.

John 16:28 - Jesus says that He came from the Father and has come into the world.

John 17:5,24 - Jesus' desire is for us to behold His glory which He had before the foundation of the world.

John 20:17 - Jesus distinguishes His relationship to the Father from our relationship by saying "My Father and your Father."

Rev. 1:8 - God says He is the "Alpha and the Omega." In Rev. 22:13, Jesus also says He is the "Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end." The only possible conclusion one can reach is that Jesus is equal to the Lord God.

Rev. 1:17 - Jesus says again, "I am the First and the Last." This is in reference to the God prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 44:6, 41:4, 48:12.

Rev. 1:18 - Jesus, the First and the Last, also says "I died, and behold, I am alive for evermore." When did God ever die? He only did in the humanity of Jesus Christ our Lord and God.

Rev. 2:8 - Jesus again says, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." When did God die and come to life? In our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
 
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Originally posted by s0uljah


Then how did he "know" these things, and record them, as this site claims?

Muhammad(SAW) received the revelations, his Sahaba that were literate wrote them down, and in order to prevent innovation or bida'ah, the Sahaba were reuired to read back what they had written to the Prophet(AS) so that he could correct it right there if necessary.

As far as the Prophet(AS) being unsure of whether his revelation was from g-d or devil, the prohet's wife Khadija(RAA) was a former christian, and the Prophet's(AS) first "convert". She was the one who insisted that the prophet was receiving revelations from the One G-d!

peace and blessings
assalamu- alaikum
shalom
 
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The account of this collection of the Koran has reached us in several substantially identical forms, and goes back to Zaid himself. According to it, he collected the revelations from copies written on flat stones, pieces of leather, ribs of palm-leaves (not palm-leaves themselves), and such-like material, ,but chiefly “from’ the breasts of men,” i.e. from their memory. From these he wrote a fair copy, which he gave to Abu Bekr, from whom it came to his successor Omar, who again bequeathed it to his daughter IJaf~a, one of the widows of the Prophet. This redaction, commonly called al-~oizof (“ the leaves “), had from the first no canonical authority; and its internal arrangement can only be conjectured.

The Moslems were as far as ever from possessing a uniform text of the Koran. The bravest of their warriors sometimes knew deplorably little about it; distinction on that field they cheerfully accorded to pious men like Ibn Mas’ud. It was inevitable, however, that discrepancies should emerge between the texts of professed scholars, and as these men in their several localities were authorities on the reading of the Koran, quarrels began to break out between the levies from different districts about the true form of the sacred book. During a campaign in A.H. 30 (A.D. 65o—651), Ijodhaifa, the victor in the great and decisive battle of Nehäveand (see CALIPHATE; and PERSIA: History) perceived that such disputes might become dangerous, and therefore urged on the caliph Othmgn the necessity for a universally binding text. The matter was entrusted to Zaid, who had made the former collection, with three leading Korei[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]es. These brought together as many copies as they could lay their hands on, and prepared an edition which was to be canonical for all Moslems. To prevent any further disputes, they burned all the other codices except that of ljaf~a, which, however, was soon afterwards destroyed by Merwgn the governor of Medina. The destruction of the earlier codices was an irreparable loss to criticism; but, for the essentially political object of putting an end to controversies by admitting only one form of the common book of religion and of law, this measure was necessary.

The result of these labours is in our hands; as to how they were conducted we have no trustworthy information, tradition being here too much under the influence of dogmatic presuppositions. The critical methods of a modern scientific commission will not be expected of an age when the highest literary education for an Arab consisted in ability to read and write. It now appears highly probable that this second redaction took this simple form:

Zaid read off from the codex which he had previously written, and his associates, simultaneously or successively, wrote one ~opy each to his dictation. These three manuscripts will therefore be those which the caliph, according to trustworthy tradition, sent in the first instance as standard copies to Damascus, Basra and Kufa to the warriors of the provinces of which these were the capitals, while he retained one at Medina. Be that as it may, it is impossible now to distinguish in the present form of the book what belongs to the first redaction from what is due to the second.


The 1911 Encyclopedia

I forgot who posted this qote but, suffice it say that this is incorrect. Zaid was entrusted to colect all manuscripts of qur;an. He wrote his copy by comparing it to one that Abu Bakr(RAA had, which was the same as the one in the possesion of Aisha(RAA). Abu Bakr(RAA) wrote his copy under the supervision of Abu Bakr(RAA) who had the correct copy. A far as the copy give to Hafsa and the story surrounded Uthma(RAA) burnig copies I have already posted that! The copy of the Arabic Qur;an which we have is exactly how it left the mouth if the Prophet(AS), and the disagreement is not really with the preservation of the quran, but with the message since it disagrees with central christian doctrines.

peace and blessings
assalamu alaikum
shalom
 
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Originally posted by s0uljah


Now, I think other people added to it as they saw fit, and different versions appeared throughout time, using the Bible for parts of it.

The bible borrowing theory as applied to the qur'an is false!

What about the similarities of the OT and NT with pre-existing pagan mythologies and legends. Did the Bible writers borrow from the pagans?

peace and blessings
assalamu alaikum
shalom
 
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Originally posted by Muslimah


In Paradise a man gets Hoors..
It really doesn't matter how many Hoors he gets because once a person is admitted to paradise Allah removes all bad feelings from their hearts.
No Jealousy , No hate , Nothing bad.
If you can't have those feelings , then you won't at all care how many other wives ur husband has.
Also the believing woman of this world who get to Paradise will be far more beautiful and attractive than the Hoors. This will be due to the excessive good deads that they had performed in this world :)

Women will get that which the heart has not desired for, the ear hasn’t heard off and the eye hasn’t seen & thats enough for me :)

Sister,
the hourin concept is one that is hard to explain, but I always see muslims resorting to hadeeth to explain it to non-muslims. Hourin have always been
"perfect companions". The idea of muslims having wives or 72 virgin wives in paradise is NOT QURANIC. ALSO IT IS SAID THAT WOMEN ENJOY ALL THE SAME BLESSINGS THAT MALE BELIEVERS ENJOY IN PARADISE!

The quran also clearly states that heaven and hell are describes the way they are in the quran b/c humans will not understand unless they have an earthlly point of refernce. There is no sexual intercourse in heaven! That is an earthly pleasure.There is spirtual pleasure in heaven SIMILAR to sexual pleasure, but can only be explained to humans in earthly terms. I hate it when non-muslims think that we look forward to a sensual, sexual paradise! And non-muslims don't help the issue either. hope that helps

peace and blessings
assalamu alaikum
shalom
 
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Yes this si true. Ther is slavery being practiced in Mauritania, Sudan, and Saudi Arabia!

But are you aware of the issues or the propaganda! Propoganda has it that Christians make up half of the population in Sudan, and the Muslims are enslaving, killing and tortureing them. In reality only about five percent of Sudanese are christians.

Are you aware of how muslims AND christians are being persecuted in Palestine? Are you aware that upper-caste hindus are murdering lower castes, Muslims, christians, jews, sihks, buddhists, and the list goes on. What about the situation in Bosnia, Chechnya, Kashmir, Indonesia, Malaysia, Phillipines, Australia, New Guinea?

Humans are killing and torturing and enslaving each other in the name of religion and other things!

Are you aware of Muslims being persecuted in America, post 9-11?

Are you unaware of historical christian atrocities?

The question is not if one knows what muslims are doing, the question is what are we muslims, christians jews....humans going to do about it. It is wrong and has nothing to do with our resoective religions!

peace and blessings
assalamu alaikum
shalom
 
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Originally posted by s0uljah
Ok, here you go...I hope you actually read them:

Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.

Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God (you heard said / but I say to you).

Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sin.

Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath." He is the Lord of God's law = God.

Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.

Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord." "The Lord has need of them."

Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.

Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God.

Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said "tell how much God has done for you." And the man declared how much Jesus did.

Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.

Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out.

John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. This Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God.

John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to Him by the Father.

John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father - whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."

John 8:12 - Jesus says "I am the light of the world." - 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.

John 8:19 - Jesus says, "if you knew me, you would know my Father also."

John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.

John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Exodus 3:14 - I AM = Yahweh.

John 10:18 - Jesus says He has the power to lay down His life and take it up again - Gal. 1:1 - God raised Jesus to life.

John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." They are equal. The Jews even claimed Jesus made Himself equal to God. John 14:28 - "the Father is greater than I" cannot contradict John 10:30. Refers to human messianic role as servant and slave.

John 10:36 - again, Jesus claims that He is "the Son of God."

John 10:38; 14:10 - "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" = the Father and Son are equal.

John 12:45 - Jesus says, "He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." God the Father is equal to God the Son.

John 13:13 - Jesus says you call me Teacher and Lord and you are right for so I AM.

John 14:6 - Jesus says "I am the way, and the truth and the life." Only God is the way, the truth and the life.

John 16:15 - Jesus says, "all things that the Father has are Mine." Jesus has everything God has which makes Him God.

John 16:28 - Jesus says that He came from the Father and has come into the world.

John 17:5,24 - Jesus' desire is for us to behold His glory which He had before the foundation of the world.

John 20:17 - Jesus distinguishes His relationship to the Father from our relationship by saying "My Father and your Father."

Rev. 1:8 - God says He is the "Alpha and the Omega." In Rev. 22:13, Jesus also says He is the "Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end." The only possible conclusion one can reach is that Jesus is equal to the Lord God.

Rev. 1:17 - Jesus says again, "I am the First and the Last." This is in reference to the God prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 44:6, 41:4, 48:12.

Rev. 1:18 - Jesus, the First and the Last, also says "I died, and behold, I am alive for evermore." When did God ever die? He only did in the humanity of Jesus Christ our Lord and God.

Rev. 2:8 - Jesus again says, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." When did God die and come to life? In our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

WOW!

THAT'S MORE THAN THIRY SCRIPTURES, BUT I WILL MAKE A CASE BY CASE REFUTATION TOMMORROW, INSHA'ALLH, AS WELL AS SHOW THE VERSES WHERE ISA (AS) DENIES HIS DIVINITY

PEACE AND BLESSINGS
ASSALAMU ALAIKUM
SHALOM
 
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Yes this si true. Ther is slavery being practiced in Mauritania, Sudan, and Saudi Arabia!

But are you aware of the issues or the propaganda! Propoganda has it that Christians make up half of the population in Sudan, and the Muslims are enslaving, killing and tortureing them. In reality only about five percent of Sudanese are christians.

Are you aware of how muslims AND christians are being persecuted in Palestine? Are you aware that upper-caste hindus are murdering lower castes, Muslims, christians, jews, sihks, buddhists, and the list goes on. What about the situation in Bosnia, Chechnya, Kashmir, Indonesia, Malaysia, Phillipines, Australia, New Guinea?

Humans are killing and torturing and enslaving each other in the name of religion and other things!

Are you aware of Muslims being persecuted in America, post 9-11?

Are you unaware of historical christian atrocities?

The question is not if one knows what muslims are doing, the question is what are we muslims, christians jews....humans going to do about it. It is wrong and has nothing to do with our resoective religions!

peace and blessings
assalamu alaikum
shalom

Good post....I agree with you. :)
 
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here we go....

Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.

How about filling in the whole verse to get the full context? Start at Luke 4;7 and you will see that Yeshua(AS) is NOT refering to himself. Nowhere does he say worship me I AM the Lord thy G-d!Never!

Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God (you heard said / but I say to you).

Yeshua(AS) is not making himself equal to g-d anywhere here.

Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.

The capitalization of lord here is arbitrary since this type of punctuation does not exist in any semitic language of the bible. The word is rabbi not rabbonai or Adonai.

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sin.

False interpretation allows the reader to think that Yeshua(AS) is forging sins. Yeshua(AS) says that your sins are forgiven, NOT I forgive your sins.

Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath." He is the Lord of God's law = God. More false interpretation. Learn Jewish idiom usage and you will see that such a phrase as "lord of the Law" is one who follows it strictly.

Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.

Only inference will allow the mind to think that Yesua(AS) is calling himself g-d here. Besides the punctuation problems, Pagans also believe that gathering in the name of a person will summon its spirit.


Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord." "The Lord has need of them."

More inference. Yeshua(AS) says the Lord(Adonai) has use of them, NOT "I have use of them"

Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.

Again false interpretation and doctoring have occured here. The Jewish texts all say "son of Man" and ancient Jewish idiom for "human"

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.

This implies that Yeshua is saying that he is eternal, NOT omnipresent. And ALL humans ARE immortal. Also pagan writers who put thesewords in Yeshua's mouth wanted to convey thast when a body dies, the spirit remains.

Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God.

This is not an unpresendented occurence. Numerous cultures looked to a father in the sky and numerous individual called g-d their "abba"

Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said "tell how much God has done for you." And the man declared how much Jesus did.

This shows that that man believed that Yeshua(AS) was g-d.

Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.

Yeshua is remarking that some have not returned to give glory to g-d, through WHOM he has healed people, NOT, give glory to himself.

Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out.

Once again the capitalization is the editors. Even so Yeshua(AS) is still not refering explicitly to himself.

John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. This Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God.

First of all, saying that g-d is his Father does NOT equate him with g-d. Second these passages make it seem that yYeshua(AS)( was at odds with the Pharisees, which he was not.

John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to Him by the Father.

Yeshua(AS) simply says that his power is given to him by the Father, he does NOT say that he is g-d. Besides this would contradict the passages where Yeshua says the father has power over all things, and is more powerful that him. Yeshua(AS) alsd says that thr power to raise the dead to life is given to him, NOT the power to GIVE life.

John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father - whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

This does not say that Yeshua is g-d, rather it is saying that those who do not honor g-d's messengers do not honr g-d.

John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."

Which one of us has not had his spirit, his true essence, come down from heaven?

John 8:12 - Jesus says "I am the light of the world." - 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.

This idiom means that yeshua brings truth(light) to where there is falsehood(Darkness in the world). Yesua(AS) is only the light of the world, g-d Is light .period. Light of the Universe and more!

John 8:19 - Jesus says, "if you knew me, you would know my Father also."

Only conjecture would allow someone to think that a human can know a infinite being or that an infinite being can be known by being contained in a finite vessel(BODY)

John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.

Besides the fact that this is interpolaation to fit previuos doctrine: The gospels were written AFTER Paul's letters, you should be able to recognize that this idiom means that Yeshua(AS) did not concern himself with earthly things but spiritual matters.

John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Exodus 3:14 - I AM = Yahweh.

Obvious misunderstanding. Why did not Yeshua say "Before Abraham(AS) was, I was? If you read it correctly it says Before Abraham was Yahweh,which means Allah existed before everything.

John 10:18 - Jesus says He has the power to lay down His life and take it up again - Gal. 1:1 - God raised Jesus to life.

This is a Gnostic teaching put into the mouth of Yeshua(AS). Do not all humans have the power to take their own lives? Did not Allah gives us the power to rise again through him. Yeshua(AS) is not unique in this!Galatians says g-d rised Yeshua(AS), not Yeshua raised himself.

John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." They are equal. The Jews even claimed Jesus made Himself equal to God. John 14:28 - "the Father is greater than I" cannot contradict John 10:30. Refers to human messianic role as servant and slave.

You simply ignored the fact that John 14;28 contradicts John 10:30 because your acceptance of doctrine on blind faith will not allow you to see this contradiction. These two statements are mutually exclusive; one can NOT be equal to and less than Allah. I and the father are one equates submission to Allah's will such that yeshua nad Allah are in agremment. Otherwise it would read "I and the father are one Bieng, One person"!

John 10:36 - again, Jesus claims that He is "the Son of God."

Jesus never claims this! The Aramaic sys son of man, the idiom for human, mortal.

John 10:38; 14:10 - "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" = the Father and Son are equal.

Only if you accept the doctrine can you say that the Father and Son are equal.The statement can mean any number of things!Dont' christians sing grater is he that is in me? Is not the Father in all of us as well. Us Yeshua(AS) unique in this?

John 12:45 - Jesus says, "He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." God the Father is equal to God the Son.

More conjecture on your part. why did you leave out the beginning of the passage to give its full context?John 12:44 Jesus cried and said:He that believeth on me(notice the LOWER CASE), BELIEVETH NOT ON ME, BUT ON HIM THAT SENT ME.

John 13:13 - Jesus says you call me Teacher and Lord and you are right for so I AM.

The aramaic reads Master(Teacher), A title given to an Essene teacher, and rabb(lord), NOT Adonai(LORD).

John 14:6 - Jesus says "I am the way, and the truth and the life." Only God is the way, the truth and the life.

" No man can get ot heaven except by following my ways, which are not my ways but g-d's way. "I am the way, and the truth and the life,...but by me." read it again, and read the entire chapter for context.

John 16:15 - Jesus says, "all things that the Father has are Mine." Jesus has everything God has which makes Him God.

This verse implies, but does not state explicitly that Yeshua(AS) is equal to g-d, and it would have been much better to state this verse only to make your case. However, there are many other verses that directly refute the idea that Yeshua(AS) is g-d.

John 16:28 - Jesus says that He came from the Father and has come into the world.

Already explained, how evryone comes from the father!

John 17:5,24 - Jesus' desire is for us to behold His glory which He had before the foundation of the world.

This whole verse creates so many problems that I can not deal with it here. Yeshua supposedly says g-d has given him power to give humans eternal life? When have humans not had eternal life? I hope he means eternal life in heaven! Suffice it to say Yeshua(AS) probably did not say this, and it should be said that Mary Magdalene wrote this gospel, not John, at this point.

John 20:17 - Jesus distinguishes His relationship to the Father from our relationship by saying "My Father and your Father."

Only conjecture would allow this interpretation. Yeshua(AS) seems to be saying that he is equal to man b/c, we all share the same father, including him!

Rev. 1:8 - God says He is the "Alpha and the Omega." In Rev. 22:13, Jesus also says He is the "Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end." The only possible conclusion one can reach is that Jesus is equal to the Lord God.

No, this is NOT the only conclusion to reach! The One True God has no beginning and no end!Besides that revelation is John's interpretation of a vision he had, and should not be used to make doctrinal assertions!

Rev. 1:17 - Jesus says again, "I am the First and the Last." This is in reference to the God prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 44:6, 41:4, 48:12.

Besides the obvious problems with using revelations to support dictrine, Isaiah 44:6 says that the Lord and his redeemer are the first and the last, and then contradictorily say that beside "me", instead of beside"us", there is no g-d. The OT surely does have it's problems!

Rev. 1:18 - Jesus, the First and the Last, also says "I died, and behold, I am alive for evermore." When did God ever die? He only did in the humanity of Jesus Christ our Lord and God.

This saying can apply to ALL of humanity, as we will all die and live forever more, either in heaven or hellfire.

Rev. 2:8 - Jesus again says, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." When did God die and come to life? In our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

God never died, my friend. And Yeshua, if he was truly g-d, could not have made a real death sacrifice, since g-d can't really die anyway. Illogical. I hope you realize that you just said god died.

It will be much better if we discuss john 16:15 only, so that you can make your case.

In the meanwhile I will post the verses where Yeshua(as) denies his divinity, and you can check out:

returningtofaithofyeshua.freeservers.com

peace and blessings
assalamu alaikum
shalom
 
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here are the verses denying the divinity of Yeshua:

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven” (Matthew 7:21)

“And the Father himself, which hath sent me, bore witness of Me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape” (John 5:37)

“And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (Mark 10:18)

“And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.” (John 8:50)

“ Jesus answered them and said, “my doctrine are not Mine, but His who sent Me” (John 7:16)

“he who does not love me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent me” (John 14:24)

“For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak” (John 12:49)

“Jesus said to them, ‘My food is to do the will of Him who sent me, and to accomplish His work” (John 4:34)

“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent me” (John 6:38)

“saying, ‘Father, if it is your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done” (Luke 22:42)

“I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me” (John 5:30)

“I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him” (John 13:16)

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28)

“Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me” (John 8:42)

“To sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father” (Matthew 20:23)

“So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me” (John 7:16)

peace and blessings
assalamu alaikum
shalom
 
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Brian45

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Originally posted by lared
Jehovah is God Almighty.

Jesus is his son.

Two different persons.

 

COOL lared,, now you have TWO GODS!!! and since the holy ghost is the third person then he is the third GOD.

Let no one again claim that christians worship one God as they always stress, they worship three gods and try to mix these three gods into one god :scratch: using a mystery that they them selves don't understand  :confused:
 
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