Mohammed and "Gabriel?"

NumberOneSon

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Thanks for the response, Zeeshan. I hope you are well as well. Yes, according to Christian scriptures we do not believe in the same God, and according to your scriptures we do, although there are major differences in doctrine. I believe that those differences in doctrines are what truly seperate us because our doctrines pertaining to salvation are completely at odds with one another. Again, I liken it to the Jews and Christians in the first century: BOTH claimed to worship the God of Abraham, but according to Christ they both were not.


I do appreciate what you have to say, and hope you take something meaningful from my words as well. I have done a little studying when it comes to the "errors" in manuscript copies and I assure you that the errors found in the ancient texts do not interfere with the innerrancy of the scriptures. Biblicaly inerrancy is the inerrancy of the message itself, not the physical text. The message of the scriptures has been preserved over the centuries throughout the numerous copies - that is what's "inerrant".

Is not the Uthmanic Koran only a copy of the original? Was not the original a compilation of written manuscripts and oral recitations collected by Mohammed's scribes? How do you know the exact message of Allah was passed on by the 50 Companions correctly? By faith that Allah could preserve his message; it's also faith that Christians know that our scriptures have been preserved for us, despite minor textual varients that are to be expected in any ancient manuscript.

Souljah's quote
You believe in the Trinity, right? 1X1X1 = 1 God with three forms...or as many as He wishes, actually. Muslims not seeing the truth about 1 of the forms, doesnt mean they don't know the truth about one of the other forms.

My friend, the Islamic doctrinal position on salvation is completely different from Christianity's. Muslims do know of Christ - He is spoken of in their scriptures. But their scriptures do not teach that his is the Son of God, the way of salvation. Again, the Jews recorded in many of the gospels said the knew of the Father and worshiped Him, but Christ said they did not know Him. He said if they knew the Father they would know Him, and if they knew Him they would know the Father. The Jews "know" of one of the "forms" of God (as you put it), but they are not saved. Same with Muslims.

In Christ,

Acts6:5
 
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There is a simple way of working out if muslims worship the real God Yaweh or not. and that is to look at what they believe about his nature. God's nature does not change, it doesnt matter if they call him the God of Abraham or Jehovah or Allah, even the devil calls God by name does that mean that he worships him or is saved or even understands his nature? Jesus said that many shall call him lord and on the last day he will say "depart from me, I never knew you"

so the easiest way to know if Muslims worship the true God is to see what they say about his nature...
this is what God himself has said.

Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, (also translated I AM) the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger and abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."" exodus 34:5-7

so if the muslims on this forum agree and can provide proof from their scriptures that they agree with all of the statements in that quote, then it is likely that they believe in God the father. though not certain, for there are many other signs of his nature that they may not agree with, and whether they are saved or not is another matter, I suppose that if they are earnestly seeking after God then He will allow them to find him.. "and you will find me if you seek me with all of your heart" jeremiah 29:14 without necesarily knowing the name of his Son, but it is difficult, for in their scripture and in the code of their beliefs they themselves state that Jesus was not the Son of God, so how then can they enter salvation through him? if they know his name and do not acknowlege him, the question is does this count as a denial? Jesus himself said "no one can come to the Father except through me" and "if you have seen me then you have seen the father" so if they reject Jesus' salvation are they not also rejecting the father?

like I said, even the devil knows who God is. it does not follow that just because you know who He is that you are saved....

not knowing enough about the Kuran I cant say whether you agree with the revelation of God that I have posted or not, so can you show me?

many thanks and God bless you all

xx Am xx
 
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like I said, even the devil knows who God is. it does not follow that just because you know who He is that you are saved....

Ah! Here is where you all are likely misunderstanding me. I am NOT saying they are saved, I am saying they worship Yahweh, the God of Abraham.
 
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Originally posted by Zico
oh.. cool souljah,, since you mentioned the Anti-Christ ( dajjal or false messaia as we call him), he is a man, and if any one of you guys is interested pm me. in the meantime,, here are some of his highlights since Muhammad*pbuh* described him in detail :

1. His right eye is blind, and the blind eye shall look like a bulging out grape ( Muhammad*pbuh* said : "l warn you against him (i.e. the Dajjal) and there was no prophet but warned his nation against him. No doubt, Noah warned his nation against him but I tell you about him something of which no prophet told his nation before me. You should know that he is one-eyed, and Allah is not one-eyed.")

2. He will have black and ugly looking curly hair

3. kafir ( non believer ) shall be written between his eyes so every true believer will be able to read it.

4. he will come with what resembles hell and paradise, his hell shall be God's paradise and his paradise shall be God's hell.

5. a believing man shall come to him and say : i testify that you are the dajjal we are tought about by the messenger of God, then the dajjal shall say to the people : if i kill this man and then bring him back to life, will you all doubt my claim, they say: no, so he kills him and then brings him back to life, then the man says: by Allah! now i know your reality better than before, then the dajjal shall have no power on this man ( and some say that this man shall be the last man he slays before being slayed by Jesus Christ*pbuh* )

6. God Almighty shall cause Jesus Christ to descend from heaven somewhere in the east ( may be Syria or Jordan or Jerusalem ) , and when the dajjal lay eyes on him he shall meltdown just like salt melts in water.

hope that was fun :)

salaam, brother

I'm sorry but I have to disagree. The concept of Isa(AS) being raised up to heaven and returning once again is NOT quranic. The concept of dajjal is also not quranic but comes from wek ahadeeth. There are many hadeeth that are christian, Jewish, muslim fabrications. That is why one should NOT and can NOT use hadeeth in arguments for Al-Islam. The dajjal story is pure christian mythology inserted into what was already a weak hadeeth.

Besides it is NOT an article of faith to believe in the bodily ascencion of Christ, the Second Coming of Christ, or in the Dajjal and end-time events associated with this mythological person.

peace and blessings
assalamu- alaikum
shalom
 
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Originally posted by Acts6:5
Thanks for the response, Zeeshan. I hope you are well as well. Yes, according to Christian scriptures we do not believe in the same God, and according to your scriptures we do, although there are major differences in doctrine. I believe that those differences in doctrines are what truly seperate us because our doctrines pertaining to salvation are completely at odds with one another. Again, I liken it to the Jews and Christians in the first century: BOTH claimed to worship the God of Abraham, but according to Christ they both were not.


I do appreciate what you have to say, and hope you take something meaningful from my words as well. I have done a little studying when it comes to the "errors" in manuscript copies and I assure you that the errors found in the ancient texts do not interfere with the innerrancy of the scriptures. Biblicaly inerrancy is the inerrancy of the message itself, not the physical text. The message of the scriptures has been preserved over the centuries throughout the numerous copies - that is what's "inerrant".

Is not the Uthmanic Koran only a copy of the original? Was not the original a compilation of written manuscripts and oral recitations collected by Mohammed's scribes? How do you know the exact message of Allah was passed on by the 50 Companions correctly? By faith that Allah could preserve his message; it's also faith that Christians know that our scriptures have been preserved for us, despite minor textual varients that are to be expected in any ancient manuscript.

Souljah's quote


My friend, the Islamic doctrinal position on salvation is completely different from Christianity's. Muslims do know of Christ - He is spoken of in their scriptures. But their scriptures do not teach that his is the Son of God, the way of salvation. Again, the Jews recorded in many of the gospels said the knew of the Father and worshiped Him, but Christ said they did not know Him. He said if they knew the Father they would know Him, and if they knew Him they would know the Father. The Jews "know" of one of the "forms" of God (as you put it), but they are not saved. Same with Muslims.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

To address the importance of different quarnic codices being in existence, I feel the need to clarify something.

Uthmaan(RAA) burned those other copies for two reasons: 1) there were copies in circulation that did not agree with Abu Bakr's(RAA) compilation, which he made by comparing those texts with those manuscripts in the possesion of Aisha(RAA), the wife of the prophet, NOT Hafsa(RAA) or Zaid(RAA). 2) b/c there were copies in circulation that did not disagree in actual content but were not in the arabic(Quaraishi dialect) that the Prophet(SAW) spoke, and this would have allowed differences of meaning to come about b/c there is no punctuation in Arabic, and saying words in a different way(DIALECTIC DIFFERENCES) sometimes gives words different meanings.

So, you see. the situation with the qur'an is not the same as is with the bible.

peace and blessings
assalamu- alaikum
shalom
 
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Originally posted by Brian45


souljah , that was my point  ,  muslims believe the koran came from God , but as you stated above and I agree with you ,  it was satan .

Therefor christians and muslims cannot be worshiping the same God .

This time ,  do you get it  ?           :)

You really don't want to compare the bible with the qur'an and conclude that the quran is from satan, do you?

If you do this comparison then it will seem more like the bible comes from satan than the quran. NOt that I believe this, since I already believe that the bible is corrupted so as to not appear as the word of g-d.

But if you must...start with the passages in the OT that say that Yahweh causes EVIL! From there go to the NT where Jesus(AS) identifies himself as the bright and morning star. Latin word for "bright and morning star"?....Lucifer. Anyone else referred to as Lucifer. Read Isaiah 14:12 in the OT please

peace and blessings
assalamu alaikum
shalom
 
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Brian45

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Originally posted by ansarthemystic


You really don't want to compare the bible with the qur'an and conclude that the quran is from satan, do you?

If you do this comparison then it will seem more like the bible comes from satan than the quran. NOt that I believe this, since I already believe that the bible is corrupted so as to not appear as the word of g-d.

But if you must...start with the passages in the OT that say that Yahweh causes EVIL! From there go to the NT where Jesus(AS) identifies himself as the bright and morning star. Latin word for "bright and morning star"?....Lucifer. Anyone else referred to as Lucifer. Read Isaiah 14:12 in the OT please

peace and blessings
assalamu alaikum
shalom

 

<SPAN class=NavigationLinks>Galatians 1:8</SPAN>
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be <B>accursed</B>.

&nbsp;

I will continue to believe and obey the christian bible as the verse above states .

I don't care if the roman catholic church teaches that jesus and allah are the same God .

And according to the bible verse above , I couldn't care less if an angel from heaven&nbsp;&nbsp; (&nbsp; Gabriel&nbsp;&nbsp; )&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; preaches another gospel&nbsp;&nbsp; (&nbsp;&nbsp;koran&nbsp; )&nbsp; because I won't be getting sucked in&nbsp; .

And what's with your user name&nbsp;&nbsp;?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ansar&nbsp; them&nbsp;&nbsp; mystic
 
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Why did you ignore the verses i posted and added another one?...besides the angel in question is not gariel(AS) is it?...I think the "angel" in question is Satan(IBLIS).

The christian bible is not something I would put my faith in but that's personal opinion for now. If you want reasons and evidence check my further posts.

And well, as far as my user name.... Ansar is an Arabic word that is variously translated as friend or helper. I use mystic because I don't believe that all truth is yet known, I believe in a continual search for the truth, and I think that truth is more internal than external(i.e. scriptures). This makes me a mystic. Therefore Ansar the Mystic.

peace and blessings
assalamu alaikum
shalom
 
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Brian45

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I ignored your verses because I 'm not interested in learning about islam , I already know the truth .
The christian bible is the only thing we can put our faith in friend , it is a competed book .
And thanks for bringing me up to speed on your user name , very interesting .
 
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Originally posted by Brian45
I ignored your verses because I 'm not interested in learning about islam , I already know the truth .
The christian bible is the only thing we can put our faith in friend , it is a competed book .
And thanks for bringing me up to speed on your user name , very interesting .

The verses I quoted are from the Bible so, I don't see why you ignores them. I am sorry, since I never intended to do this, b/c I only wanted to share my belifs with others and hear the beliefs of others as well....but I feel obligated now to show you why I think the christian bible and christianity is not the truth....here goes....

let's begin with...

You should check out

http://returningtofaithofyeshua.freeservers.com/

and http://geocities.com/faithofyeshua to begin with as I will be quoting extensively from there as well as using many of my own personal arguments.

As far as the origin of early christianity is concerned it should be known that there were at least 4 major forms of christianity in existence after Yeshua(AS). The Jerusalem Church, The Gnostic Christians(before and after christ), Pauline Christianity, AND the variuos Jewish Christian sects.

The Jerusalem Church would have consisted mainly of those that either followed Peter and the apostles(RAA), James(AS)(the brother of Yeshua(AS), John the Baptist(AS), Mary Magadalene(RAA) or some combination of these persons' teachings. These people were all at odds with Paul's teachings, except for Yahya(AS)(John the Baptist), who was already dead.

The Gnostic christians are those that are represented in the Apochryphal Gospels and in some of the the Apochryphon, the Nag Hammadi or, the Dead Sea Scrolls And the Mysterious Q Document. These people are the Essenes and other groups who were pre-christian and pre-Yeshua(AS).

The Jewish sects were divided into the keepers of the Mosaic law and the Pharisees and Saducees( who were not christians per say but were expecting a masiach nonetheless), There were also those called Nazarenes and those called Zealots. Yeshua's direct followers were the Nazarenes, but many Nazarenes became part of the Jerusalem Church or Zealots.

The Nazarenes not only kept the original law but believed that the kingdom of god was nigh as Yeshua(AS) said. They also had no extra-Tanakh scriptures, but relied on oral transmission of Yeshua's actual sayings. The zealots believed in armed struggle and wanted to rid Palestine of the non-Israelite presence in Palestine. It seems that Yeshua was leaning towards being a Zealot, before being apparently crucified. But the Zealots practiced ritual assassination of Roman leaders and collaborators, and Yeshua was turned off by this it seems. This shift can be noticed when reading the NT. The Zealots also had a real problem with Paul.

The Pharasees were the predecessors to Rabbinical Judaism, and Judaism has always been a flexible religion, one of interpretation, provided one did not abandon essential doctrines. This is just the case with Islam. The idea that Yeshua(AS) had problem with the Phrasees is laughable since he probably was one of them after he left the Essenes. People doubt that Yeshua(AS) was an Essene, but I ask why there are Essene doctrines in the NT, but no mention of Yeshua's life from 12 to 30 years old?

The Sadducees were the collaborators and allowed the Romans to appoint a High Priest to preserve their position of wealth. Yeshua had a problem with them, NOT the Pharasees. Paul was a Sadducee, until his "conversion" on "the way". The Pharasees kept the hereditary priesthood from the line of Aaron, and rejected the Roman-appointed fake High Priest. The Essenes had their own priesthood, the Zadokite preisthood, from King Zadok, and believed their preisthood to be pure and separated(NZR) from the corruption going on in traditional Judaism.

The Pauline Church developed from the ideas of Paul that pervade the NT. Even some of these ideas did not agree with the Church position so they(the Church) edited it. Two examples are how they added a passage to support the trinity idea, and how they edited the references to the Masoretic text that read "son of Man" or human to "son of God". The Pauline Church eventually absorbed the Jerusalem Church which later split into the Syrian Church, Assyrian Church, Th Egyptian Coptic Church, The Ayssinian or Ethiopian Melkite Church. This Church called the Catholic Church of course later split into the Roman Catholic Church and Easterm Orthodox Communities, and then further split to become the Roman Catholic Church, The Eastern Orthodox Church and, Protestant Church which later split into many denominations. Pauline Christianity is, therefore, the basis for the entire Christian Church today, Catholic and Protestant.

The Zealots, Sadducees, and Pharasees eventually became Rabbinical Jews. The Nazarenes(Nazoreans) carried on the Essene legacy and became marginal after absorbing many Buddhist and Taoist ideas. The teachings of the original Jerusalem Church are buried under the editing, fabrication, and layering of texts practiced by the Church Fathers upon the NT. The Gnostics are experiencing a revival now with some pantheist infusions into their doctrines. And some of their teachings existed in the Deism of the Founding Fathers of America( for those who think America was founded on "Judeo-Christian" principles!)

So the question to ask is whether Pauline Christianity represents the faith of Yeshua(AS), and whether Yeshua(AS) is in fact the fullfillment of the Jewish Messiah Prophesy? Granted that many of the Gnostic Gospels and the other Apocryphal Gospels are unreliable or even spurious, the qestion stiil reamains "On what authority did the Church remove or exclude the majority of the Apocryphal Gospels,the Gnostic Gospels, the Apocryphon, The Nag Hammadi, and the Dead Sea Scroll material from the text of the Bible? Who decides what is the word of g-d from among the writings of men?

The majority of scholars of all faiths and no belief say that Pauline Christianity was NOT the faith of Yeshua and that the NT was doctored, not to mention the OT as well, but that is another story.

there's much more, but like I said this is just a beginning

peace and blessings
assalamu alaikum
shalom
 
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Brian45

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Ansarthemystic , it is not the size of a mans brain nor the knowledge that fills it , that enables a man to believe in the bible and that jesus is the christ , the son of God .

It requires something else , something quite mystical .

I will leave you with a bible verse which I think you should meditate upon .

1 Corinthians 2
13These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy[1] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
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NumberOneSon

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Our scriptures do not say that the Muslims worship another God, since the Muslims weren't even around when our scriptures were written.

Hi Souljah.

It's not a matter of reading a scripture that says "Muslims do not worship Yahweh". My point has always been that Muslims claim to worship the God of Abraham, yet the God of the Muslims inspired Mohammed to teach that Jesus was not the Son of God, not the Savior of the world, only a good prophet. My point has always been that some of the major doctrines and teachings in their Koran are at odds with biblical scripture (not necessarily their "moral" teachings). My point has always been that, like the Jews, the Muslims can claim all they want that they worship the God of Abraham, but God does not know them. I'm not saying that when they claim to worship Yahweh they are actually worshiping Mithra. What I'm saying is that they "claim" to worship the God of Abraham, but they are not worshiping Abraham's God because He does not accept their worship. The Judaizers in Galatians claimed to be Christians and worship Christ. In reality, they did not because they believed a false gospel. It's as simple as that.

Ah! Here is where you all are likely misunderstanding me. I am NOT saying they are saved, I am saying they worship Yahweh, the God of Abraham.

Again, if so then they are in exactly the same position as the 1st Century Jews who also claimed to worship the God of Abraham but were not known by Yahweb because they did not accept His Son. So what's the point in insisting that they worship Yahweh when Yahweh does not know them? What's the point?

Hi ansarthemystic,

So, you see. the situation with the qur'an is not the same as is with the bible.

I was not trying to imply that the situation was exactly the same. My only point was that both Christians and Muslims have faith that the manuscript copies of our sacred texts, having been received and compiled by Man, have also been preserved correctly by divine intervention. A Christians belief that the Word of God has been preserved is based on faith; A Muslims belief that the Quran has been preserved is based on faith. That's the only comparison I was trying to draw.

In Christ,

Acts6:5
 
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Originally posted by Shane Roach
Ansarthemystic, you'd do well to post some sources at least. Your post interests me but there's not much to say when we are working off of different texts and saying, "your text is wrong".

here are some good sources.

H Maccoby, The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity, Harper and Rowe, New York, 1986

Lillian C. Freudmann, Antisemitism in the New Testament, University Press of America, New York, 1994

Michael Goulder, St. Paul Versus St. Peter: A Tale of Two Missions, SCM Press, London, 1994

Andrew D. Benson, The True Origins Of Christianity And The Bible, Prudental Publishing Company, Clovis, Ca., 1999

Joseph Wheless, Forgery In Christianity, Alfred A. Knope, New York, 1930

James D. G. Dunn, Jesus Paul and The Law, Westminster/John Know Press, Louisville, Kentucky, 1990

H Maccoby, Paul and Hellenism, Trinity Press International, London, 1991

Alan F. Segal, Paul The Convert: The Apostolate and Apostasy Of Saul The Pharisee, Yale University Press, New Haven and London, 1990

Joseph Klausner, From Jesus To Paul, Menorah Pub. Co., New York, 1943

Rev. R.C. Trounson, The Rival Philosophies Of Jesus and of Paul, George Allen and Unwin Ltd., London, 1919

Benjamin Bacon, Jesus and Paul, Hodder and Stroughton, London, 1921

E. P. Sanders, Paul, The Law, And The Jewish People, Fortress Press, Philadelphia, 1983

E. P. Sanders, Paul And Palestinian Judaism, Fortress Press, Philadelphia, 1983

Sidney G. Hall, Christian Anti-Semitism And Paul's Theology, Fortress Press, Minneapolis, 1993

Albert Schweitzer, The Mysticism of Paul The Apostle, The Macmillan Co. New York, 1956

E. P. Sanders, Paul, Oxford University Press, New York, 1991

David Wenham, Paul: Follower Of Jesus or Founder Of Christianity, W.B. Eerdman's Pub. Co., Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1995

Kenneth Schei, Christianity Betrayed, Synthesis, San Diego, Ca., 1989.

Richard Hays, Echoes Of Scripture In The Letters of Paul, Yale University Press, New Haven and London, 1989

but as far as scriptural sources I will only post those on demand and when they apply to specific topics. Otherwise things become too cumbersome.

peace and blessings
assalamu alaikum
shalom
 
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Originally posted by Brian45
Ansarthemystic , it is not the size of a mans brain nor the knowledge that fills it , that enables a man to believe in the bible and that jesus is the christ , the son of God .

It requires something else , something quite mystical .

I will leave you with a bible verse which I think you should meditate upon .

1 Corinthians 2
13These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy[1] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

should I suppress reason and logic, given to me by Allah(SWT) and accept something on blind faith and its emotional attractiveness? I have studied christianity and the bible thoroughly and conclude that it is not the truth.
And giving me the quote of a man to ponder on does not help me. It sounds like a brainwashing technique to suppress genuine inquiry into the atrrubutes of the Divine and Truth.

peace and blessings
assalamu alaikum
shalom
 
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bouncer

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should I suppress reason and logic, given to me by Allah(SWT) and accept something on blind faith and its emotional attractiveness? I have studied christianity and the bible thoroughly and conclude that it is not the truth.
And giving me the quote of a man to ponder on does not help me. It sounds like a brainwashing technique to suppress genuine inquiry into the atrrubutes of the Divine and Truth.

I'd like to see the reason and logic that makes you reject Christianity, more importantly the logic that makes you accept Islam.&nbsp; You accept Islam because of your faith as well.&nbsp; If there was any sound proof of the validity of the Quran and Islam, we would all be Muslim.

Besides, I wonder if you studied Christianity with Christians. Obviously, your sources are mostly Jewish and Muslim....if that is not brainwashing then I wonder what is....

&nbsp;
 
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Originally posted by bouncer


I'd like to see the reason and logic that makes you reject Christianity, more importantly the logic that makes you accept Islam.&nbsp; You accept Islam because of your faith as well.&nbsp; If there was any sound proof of the validity of the Quran and Islam, we would all be Muslim.

Besides, I wonder if you studied Christianity with Christians. Obviously, your sources are mostly Jewish and Muslim....if that is not brainwashing then I wonder what is....

&nbsp;

great link you sent me! haven't finished it yet though....when i do I will give a proper response.

Anyway, it is both reason and faith that makes me a muslim. About your comment that if there was sound proof that Islam and the qur'an is true, everyone would be muslims, well there is proof and people are STILL NOT muslims. And despite the evidence peole are STILL christian. So it is not the prioof, but whether people choose to accept the proof. The first set of sources I gave you are just the beginning. I studied religion for 10 years. My sources alone could make a refernce book.

My sources include Jews, Muslims, Christians, Libertarians, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-Day Adventists, Catholics, Hindus, Skeptics, Atheists, Agnostics, Atheists, Baha'is, Zoroartrians, Gnostics, Nuwabians, pagans,etc....The importance is not on the source, but on the Truth. Doesn't matter who gives it, the Truth is the Truth.

As far as the brainwashing issue, I have been a christian most of my life. I studied christianity with christains. My parents are still christians. My whole family is christain!

peace and blessings
assalamu alakum
shalom
 
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Brian45

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Originally posted by ansarthemystic


great link you sent me! haven't finished it yet though....when i do I will give a proper response.

Anyway, it is both reason and faith that makes me a muslim. About your comment that if there was sound proof that Islam and the qur'an is true, everyone would be muslims, well there is proof and people are STILL NOT muslims. And despite the evidence peole are STILL christian. So it is not the prioof, but whether people choose to accept the proof. The first set of sources I gave you are just the beginning. I studied religion for 10 years. My sources alone could make a refernce book.

My sources include Jews, Muslims, Christians, Libertarians, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-Day Adventists, Catholics, Hindus, Skeptics, Atheists, Agnostics, Atheists, Baha'is, Zoroartrians, Gnostics, Nuwabians, pagans,etc....The importance is not on the source, but on the Truth. Doesn't matter who gives it, the Truth is the Truth.

As far as the brainwashing issue, I have been a christian most of my life. I studied christianity with christains. My parents are still christians. My whole family is christain!

peace and blessings
assalamu alakum
shalom

&nbsp;

Ansarthemystic&nbsp; ,&nbsp; you mention brainwashing&nbsp; ,&nbsp; may I ask which christian denomination your family belong to ,&nbsp; and which denomination of christians you studied with&nbsp; ?

&nbsp;

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