Danials 70th was completed at the cross!!!

BereanTodd said:

You say that my understanding of the 483 years being sound, but then you say that it was all accomplished then. So what is the importance of a date 7 years after the resurrection? Because that would be the end of the 70 weeks. To say that the 69 weeks are years, leading up to the entrance into Jerusalem during the Passion week, but that the 70th week is not representative of years is to be inconsistent and foolish in our hermeneutics.

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I don't believe we can be exactly precise in the dating, although your overall dating is sound. (Not adding a 2000 year gap like Dispenationalism does).

Since Christ is 'cut-off' after the 69th week...(remember Daniel describes the 7 weeks of rebuilding, then "AFTER" the next 62 weeks, Messiah is cut off.

This places the crucifixion "AFTER" the first 69 weeks (7+62=69), and therefore venues it within the final 70th week.

And that harmonizes perfectly with verse 9:27 which tells us that in the midst of the 70th week that Messiah the prince causes the sacrifice and offering to cease.

The duration of time used to fulfil the prophecy given to Daniel by Gabriel was 70 weeks of years...but I simply do not believe that it is strict down to the final minutes, seconds, etc....and that once Messiah the Prince was cut-off and ended the sacrifice and offering in the midst of the final 70th week, then the prophecy was fulfilled.

Some folks get too stringent on wanting to account for every minute and second of the final 70th week after that point, to which I don't think were needed to be accounted for. The prophecy was completed in the 70th week....whether in the first week of it, or the first year of it, or the seventh year of it...

Dave Taylor said:

I don't believe we can be exactly precise in the dating, although your overall dating is sound. (Not adding a 2000 year gap like Dispenationalism does).

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1. I believe we can be very precise with the dating, it just takes a good amount of work because of the many various callendars that come into effect.

2. I am a dispensationalist, and what I have said is dispensational teaching. The 69th week culminated on His entrance into Jerusalem. This also makes sense because if that were the 70th week then at what point would He have been cut off?

But if we accept that the "sevens" (the word week is not in the Hebrew) are years, then once again. The 483 years culminate with the entrance to Jerusalem ... what then is the purpose of the last 7 years? What happens seven years later that is of importance to us, and why has it not been preserved for us?

Since Christ is 'cut-off' after the 69th week...(remember Daniel describes the 7 weeks of rebuilding, then "AFTER" the next 62 weeks, Messiah is cut off.

This places the crucifixion "AFTER" the first 69 weeks (7+62=69), and therefore venues it within the final 70th week.

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Unless the 70th week were delayed. Why is that such a hard concept? Paul talked of him being given mysteries that had not been revealed before ... why is the possibility of this gap being a mystery so hard to accept?

Some folks get too stringent on wanting to account for every minute and second of the final 70th week after that point, to which I don't think were needed to be accounted for. The prophecy was completed in the 70th week....whether in the first week of it, or the first year of it, or the seventh year of it...

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Then why were 70 "weeks" prophesied? Because according to you it only took 69 "weeks" plus a few days. You make the entire prophecy nonsense. It was not 69 weeks plus a few days prophesied. It was 70 weeks. And if the 69 weeks before were all full periods of time, then you are being extremely inconsistent by insisting that the 70th week is somehow different.

Dave Taylor said:

I believe the entire point of Daniel 9:24-27 points to complete fulfillment in Christ in the 1st century AD.

Your breakdown of the timing of weeks 1-69 (483) going from the rebuild up to Christ's earthly incarnation and ministry is sound.

But notice that Messiah is cutoff after the 69 week period...which puts his being cutoff "within" the final seventy week period.

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That is a possible interpretation, but it could also mean the Messiah was cutoff after the 69th week was completed. After all Daniel marked the restoration of Jerusalem after the 7 "sevens" but before the 62 "sevens." Also the 70th "seven" is not specifically mentioned until Daniel 9:27.

The covenant mentioned in 9:27 said it is for one "seven." If that covenant is equated with the New Covenant, then the 70th week for a myriad of reasons is necessarily symbolic, not literal. That would beg the question of taking the 69 "sevens" as literal, as BereanTodd said...

Dave Taylor said:

That is when Messiah the prince stopped sacrifice and offering.
That is when Messiah the prince executed the Covenant to the many....as Matthew 26 says, in His blood, for the forgiveness of sins (remember Dan 9:24's 'to make an end of sin' parameter?)

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The sequence in the passage is this:
1. The Anointed One (Messiah) will be cutoff (9:26a).
2. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary (9:26b).
3. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed (9:26c).

So after Jesus' death (1), then (2) and (3) will happen. The "people of the ruler who will come" is a different person, one who has a hand in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Then:

4. He will confirm a covenant with many for one "seven" (9:27a).
5. In the middle of the "seven" he will put an end to sacrifice and offering (9:27b).
6. On a wing of a temple, he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him (9:27c).

The He could refer back to either the Anointed One or the "ruler who will come." Based on (6) alone, I wouldn't think the Messiah would be the one who would setup an abomination that causes desolation, just as Antiochus Epiphanes did, so it must be the "ruler who will come."


LDG

BereanTodd said:

Then why were 70 "weeks" prophesied? Because according to you it only took 69 "weeks" plus a few days. You make the entire prophecy nonsense. It was not 69 weeks plus a few days prophesied. It was 70 weeks. And if the 69 weeks before were all full periods of time, then you are being extremely inconsistent by insisting that the 70th week is somehow different.

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You are assuming that I and everyone else agrees with your numbering scheme that ends up with the 69 segment being completed on the day of His triumphant entry.

I don't believe you can accurately be that correct.
I have also seen well-derived studies of the timeperiod that show the 70th week began at His earthly ministry, and he was cut-off at the mid-point, 3 and a half years into the 70th week.

The reason the entire 70th week itself doesn't have to be totally completed, is because the prophecy was taking us up through until the 70th week....it held the climactic fulfillment of what was described in Dan 9:24-27.....and when that climax was completed (Messiah being cut off, and Him ending sacrifice and offering), then the fulfillment arrived.

If I proclaimed that 50 years from now a blue hot-air balloon piloted by the President would fly under the St Louis Arch, across the Ohio Valley, and get caught upon the spire of the Empire State Building, ---and it all occured exactly like that in the year 2056, then there would be no arguing that the prophecy had been fulfilled to the letter. You wouldn't have people speculating against its accuracy because it didn't occur exactly on December 15th or December 31st of that year.

Daniel predicted specific events that would occur and be fulfilled and concluded by before a span of 70 weeks of years had completed.

He got it right, and many Christians, mostly from the Dispensational camp, just can't be satisified with that, and give that glory to Christ. They want to change it to be unnatural, filled with unmentioned gaps and fulfilled by speculative antichrists instead.

For the record, I used to believe what you believe. I was grown up in the dispensational pretrib view, and it was the only view I ever knew for 20 years. It isn't that I am unfamiliar with it, it is that I am very familiar with it, and have come to see it is a flawed and failed system of interpretation that is based on alot of similar unnatural premises like that that are 'read into' the scriptures.

Instead of simply accepting 'from the scriptures' what they clearly say.

Thanks for the reply!

LamorakDesGalis said:

The covenant mentioned in 9:27 said it is for one "seven." If that covenant is equated with the New Covenant, then the 70th week for a myriad of reasons is necessarily symbolic, not literal. That would beg the question of taking the 69 "sevens" as literal, as BereanTodd said...

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Actually the duration of the covenant of 9:27 isn't given. The English structure of the sentence can be misleading, and appear to be giving duration, because of the way 'for' is added to the text. If you examine the original Hebrew you will find this addition is not present; all it is saying is that this occurs in the 70th week, not how long it is.

And since Jesus Himself quoted that specific part of Daniel 9:27 reguarding the Covenant for the many, and it being the one He shed in His blood via the cross; I find that a very acceptible reason from the NT itself, to understand the interpretation of that OT phrase. Much more so, than reading something into the text that no scripture anywhere else suggests.

For me, to have the 70 weeks of Daniel be fulfilled in the 1st century AD is much more literal and natural than to stick a 2000 year gap inbetween one set of the sevens and then claim that is a more literal reading.

LamorakDesGalis said:

4. He will confirm a covenant with many for one "seven" (9:27a).
5. In the middle of the "seven" he will put an end to sacrifice and offering (9:27b).
6. On a wing of a temple, he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him (9:27c).

The He could refer back to either the Anointed One or the "ruler who will come." Based on (6) alone, I wouldn't think the Messiah would be the one who would setup an abomination that causes desolation

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I don't agree with the interpretation above that it is Messiah the prince who sets up an abomination. That is a poor translation of the Hebrew IMO.

I believe these English versions better convey the Hebrew, as well as better convey clearly exactly what Messiah the prince did in causing the sacrifice and offering to end.

9:27 KJV "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation"

9:27 NASB " in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations [SIZE=-1][/SIZE]will come one who makes [SIZE=-1][/SIZE]desolate, even until a complete [SIZE=-1][/SIZE]destruction"

9:27 Geneva "in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate"

9:27 Holman "in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction"


What a beautiful OT Messianic prophecy of what Jesus would accomplish at Calvary by ending the imperfect sacrificial system with the perfect sacrifice of His own body, once forevermore!

Unworthyservant, quote.
“The Beast was Rome, the mortal wound was a representation of the fallen Julio Caudian family line of the Caesars.
After Nero died, Rome fell into a civil war and their Empire appeared to crumble. But Vespasian, and his two sons Titus and Domitian, brought glory back to Rome, especially after completing a destructive and brutal seven year war against the Jews. Upon victory, Domitian erected the Roman Collasium in honor of his brother Titus, the Prince of Rome for his success against the Jews. Sadly, the collosium turned out to be the blood shed for the Saints as many were killed by sword and wild beast for game.” Unquote.

THE BEAST IS NOT ROME.
Gen 3: 13. And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
Gen 3: 15. “And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15And I will put ENMITY between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; IT SHALL BRUISE THY HEAD, and THOU SHALT BRUISE HIS HEEL.” unworthyservant, quote ‘The Beast was Rome,’ unquote.

That is not so, the beast is the ‘serpent beast’ as stated in the last above verse.
He will receive his wound because he will bruise His heal. The Lord saw that he had tempted the woman in the garden of Eden and said “Because thou hast done this, you are cursed.” I will put ENMITY between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;
Nothing whatsoever to do with your suggestion.
Now we can see the manifestation of this in Revelation’

Rev 12: 17. And when the DRAGON saw that he was CAST UNTO THE EARTH, he PERSECUTED the WOMAN which brought forth the man child. 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, FROM THE FACE OF THE SERPENT.

The woman is NOT hiding from Titus.

Rev 12: 15. And THE SERPENT cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which THE DRAGON cast out of his mouth. 17And the DRAGON WAS WROTH with the WOMAN, and went to make WAR with the REMNAT OF HER SEED, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I think you should read the following again unworthyservant.

Gen 3: 13. And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
Gen 3: 15. “And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15And I will put ENMITY BETWEEN THEE AND THE WOMEN and BETWEEN THY SEED AND HER SEED; IT SHALL BRUISE THY HEAD, and THOU SHALT BRUISE HIS HEEL.”

Rev 13: 3. And I saw ONE OF HIS HEADS as it were WOUNDED TO DEATH; and HIS DEADLY WOUND WAS HEALED: and all the world wondered after the beast.
He was ‘wounded to death’ but ‘his DEADLY WOUND was healed.’ Deadly wounds don’t heal on Earth. The beast is a fallen angel, he will be wounded in Heaven by Michael/Jesus, or one of the Lord’s angels before being thrown down here to Earth.

Rev 13: 4And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the BEAST, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5And there was given unto him a MOUTH SPEAKING great things and BLASPHEMIES; and POWER was given unto him to continue FORTY TWO MONTHS.
6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7And it was GIVEN UNTO HIM TO MAKE WAR WITH THE SAINTS, and to OVERCOME THEM: and power was given him over ALL KINDREDS, and tongues, and NATIONS. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

How is it so many will fall into the trap of worshiping the beast?
2 Cor 11: 16. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, TRANSFORMING THEMSELVES INTO THE APOSTLES OF CHRIST.
14And NO MARVEL; for SATAN HIMSELF IS TRANSFORMED INTO AN ANGEL OF LIGHT. 15. Therefore it is NO GREAT THING IF HIS MINISTERS ALSO BE TRANSFORMED AS THE MINISTERS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS; whose end shall be according to their works.

Also unworthyservant, you mention quote ‘the seven year war against the Jews,’ unquote. You also mention quote, “the coliseum turned out to be the blood shed for the Saints as many were killed by sword and wild beast for game.” Unquote.

Well just in case you suggest that those events have something to do with the tribulation, in any way shape or form, let me show you that the beast with the mortal wound is only in power for 42 months as read in Rev 13: 5 above, and NOT ‘seven years,’ so what happened back then for seven years or longer, has no relevance or bearing on or to the tribulation period where Daniel 12: 12. states a time of 1335 days.

The ram you speak of in Daniel 8: has nothing to do with, quote ‘the Domitian Flavian dynasty.’

There are two horns on the ram NAMED.
They are named the Medes/Iraqis and Persia/Iranians. They are clearly identified, so where ever you get quote ‘the Domitian Flavian dynasty.’ Is certainly not from the Bible.


Daniel 8: 2. And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai. 3Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
Daniel was standing in Shushan which was within the Medes/Iraqis part of the Medo/Persian empire by the river Ulai which is now called the Karun river, which is located within IRAN, which was called PERSIA.

So the two horns on the ram are Iraq and Iran. The smaller of the two horns that comes up first which is IRAQ, then the second higher horn IRAN, will come up last.
So there you have it the Bible says it is MEDES/IRAQ and PERSIANS/ IRANIANS. The ram will get attacked by the rough goat by the Ulai/Karun river located within IRAN. The ram is the…… I will deal with the ID of the RAM and ‘yavan’ the ‘rough goat in Daniel 8 later when I have time.

Dan 8: 4. I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great. 5And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
15And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. 16And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. 17So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be THE VISION.

At the ‘time of the end’ also called the ‘LAST END’ was not back at 70AD
Daniel 8: 19. And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in THE LAST END of the indignation: for at the time appointed the END shall be.
He did not say the second from the last end of the indignation. That would not make any sense at all.
I could tell you in detail about Daniel 7: and link that chapter with Daniel chapter 8: I could explain in clear detail how the lion loses his eagle’s wings, but you are not ready to receive it.
If there are any readers that have any questions about the lion, bear, leopard or the Ram and rough goat, no matter what the questions are, please feel free to ask me and I will try to answer them for you. I promise to be kind to you.

May His return be soon.
PC.

inhisdebt said:

False understanding of Danial 9v27

Many presume that danial 9v27 is in referance to a future 7 year period of tribulation. Expecting the AC to come and bring in an establishment of the sacrificial system, then to remove it. That is incorrect!!!


Danial 9v24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

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can we understand the mysteries???? 1 cor 13:2

or gal 3:28 or
eph 2:11-12, eph 3:6

just a little study

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

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for argue ments sake why does 2 thes 2:4 which was written in 51 ad refer to dan 9:27

The ramifications for this to a futeristic understanding of eschatoligy is staggering.

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very true...

In Hebrew, "cut-off" means, death. In the passage in Daniel, in Hebrew, "Messiah," is used - not, "Antichrist."

Jesus ministered for 3 1/2 years, and was cut-off. Then, the disciples continued to take the Gospel to the Jewish nation, for, another 3 1/2 years, until, the stoning of Stephen.

You are correct.

unworthyservant Quote:
“Daniel's prophesies are all finished brother." Unquote.

No Brother, they are not! Let’s use other supporting verses and also Daniel, to prove that assumption as simply that, an assumption.
THE Lord’s great ARMY. Please read Ezekiel 37: 1 to 9.
Ezekiel 37: 10. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.

11. Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the WHOLE HOUSE OF ISRAEL: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O MY PEOPLE, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.

The whole house of Israel could not have been raised in the past. Two thousand years later many numbers of people are still being added to it, so the WHOLE HOUSE OF ISRAEL is still not quite entire, full, complete, or not yet ‘whole.’
The Roman army of 70AD were killers and also of the Christ and some of the Disciples, along with countless Christians, over THE AGES, but that does not relate to the predetermined tribulation time span of 1335 days of Daniel 12: 12 which. The cruelties heaped upon the Disciples, and on all our brothers and sisters over the centuries is far too long a period to be the tribulation period. After all the whole of Daniel 7: 8: 9: 10: 11: and 12: spans no more than 2300 ereb boqer. Which is no more than SIX and a BIT YEARS just before ‘the last end.’
Ezekiel 37: 11. Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the WHOLE HOUSE of ISRAEL: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
It cannot be that ‘the whole house of Israel,’ was ready to be raised into HIS GREAT ARMY until all of His children, have been born, died during the following 2000 years or so and wait for the resurrection.
Is it so difficult for a preterist to understand that the time of the end is not ‘70AD’ but in fact is at “THE TIME OF THE END” called the “LAST END.” Spoken of in the vision of Daniel 8?
It is the Lord that will lead His resurrected ‘great army’ on the day of the Lord, not Titus! The Lord was not leading the Roman army, against Jerusalem in 70AD.
Joel 2: 11. And the LORD shall UTTER HIS VOICE BEFORE HIS ARMY: FOR HIS CAMP is very great: for he is strong that EXECUTETH HIS WORD: for the DAY OF THE LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Where was the Lord in 70AD? Did Josephus Flavius see HIM or His great army? Of course not, all he saw was the cruel Roman army led by the murderous Titus. They had no right whatsoever trespassing on another country!
I think from memory it was Titus Flavius Vespasianus, that led that army in 70AD.
It seems the preterist cannot distinguish between God’s great army that is to fight on the DAY of the Lord from that of the evil Roman army in70AD.

Since when did the Roman army execute God’s WORD IN FULL by attacking Jerusalem, and NOT pulling down every ‘stone upon stone’ of the wailing wall which is intrinsic to within that prophecy being fulfilled in Matt 24: 3.
The wailing wall still stands ‘stone upon stone,’ today as a result of a Roman strategic military decision. They decided to leave it standing as a military vantage point. The fact that this one decision stands against Matt 24: 3. and many other prophetic requirements not completed within the fine detail mentioned in Matt 24: Mark 13: and Luke 21, along with Daniel, Isaiah and Revelation in 70AD should, 2000 years later, ring alarm bells about preterist theories!

Rev 11: 2.” But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.”
The timing again is restricted to within 3 ½ years. The two witnesses are to be murdered in Jerusalem and left there for 3 ½ days until the voice of trumpet seven is heard. Where did that occur if as unworthywervant, insists that everything has been fulfilled, except the return of Satan?
Resurrection time is at trump seven. The resurrection of the Christ after three nights and three days in the sepulchre, He rose and a few Saints were raised with Him, was not the resurrection at trumpet seven.
Jesus hadn’t even left Earth at that time. He came up out of it from the tomb. So how could He return in great glory and power from the clouds with the Father?
Mathew 24: 29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
It is at His return, when they all shall see Him thatis when He raises the dead.
Mat 24: 30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The angels are sent to collect His chosen.

Mat 24: 31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Yet we are told that it was at HIS resurrection after three days that the ‘graves were opened,’ which is vastly different from the preceding description of the resurrection to life at trumpet seven in matt 24: 29 – 31!
Compare the above verses with these following and note the differences which is so obvious that I have no idea why unworthyservant, can associate them with the second advent or resurrection unto life at trumpet seven.. Matt 27: 52. And the graves were opened; and MANY bodies of the saints which slept arose, Matt 27: 53. And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Please not that it does not say ALL the bodies of all the Saints rose. It just says, ‘many bodies.’

Matt 27: 54. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
Also what happened to those that were to be raised to see Him return in great glory, you know, those that pierced Him? In Rev 1: 7. Matthew 27: 54, mentions the centurion but omits those that pierced Him, even Josephus dose not mention them. The reason for that is obvious, it was not His second advent nor was it His day of vengeance in 70AD.
Neither was there anyone resurrected on 70AD.
The resurrection of the quote ‘whole house of Israel’ back then did not happen. The whole generation of Israel, had not been born at that time.
The whole house of Israel can only be raised to immortality at the fullness of time at trumpet 7 when a fulfilling, a completed, accomplishment of all prophetic tasks have occurred, including the two witnesses and Josephus did not even mention Elijah or Moses being present within Jerusalem. Yet Josephus was a Jew and would have known that they were to precede the Christ, for some 1260 days before His return plus the three and a half days that they are to lay dead in that city for 3 ½ days after being killed in the midst of the LAST week.
Their needs to be two witnesses for sound lawful reasons to convict Satan, of their murders, see Rev 11: which is yet to be fulfilled.
Deut 17: 6. At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Look at the Lord’s immortal army which Josephus Flavius, NEVER saw.
Joel 2: 8. Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when THEY FALL UPON THEIR SWARD, THEY SHALL NOT BE WOUNDED.
See Joel 2: 1 – 11. and see that the great army of God’ was not there in 70AD. The differences between Rome’s and God’s armies are simply astounding.
It is the immortal Heavenly army of GOD, that He will lead not the mortal Roman army led by Titus in 70AD.
Where was God’s great army back then, it was being added to as righteous people died and were laid to rest waiting for the resurrection. If there was a supposed resurrection of the whole house of Israel numbering millions upon millions, where were they?
If as the preterist claims this is God’s kingdom where was God’s great army? Only a few Saints were raised at His resurrection because of course, Jesus Christ, is the Resurrection. Not only will His army be made up of His children from Earth but the angels are a part of His great army as well and the number of which, is staggering.
The resurrected from Earth are noted in Rev 19: 8. “And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.”
Notice the word ‘armies’ plural is used. Made up of angels and the Saints
In Rev 19: 14. And the armies in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
That is why we are told. Dan 7: 18. “But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.”
His servants are to fight.
Rev 19: 19. “And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army..”
Compare how earthly men will be persuaded to fight at the real battle of Armageddon.
Rev 16: 13. “And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the KINGS OF THE EARTH AND OF THE WHOLE WORLD, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.”
Nothing remotely like that happened in 70AD and nothing like the statements made within the seventy weeks were completed in any way shape or form.

One more thing unworthyservant, you tried to make out that when Jesus said ‘IT IS FINISHED,’ you say He meant ‘everything prophesied was finished.’ You also said it meant ‘quote ‘mission accomplished.’ Unquote.

Jesus did not know when ‘the mission was to be accomplished.’ He was referring to His suffering and then died.

This is the real finish when there is ‘TIME NO LONGER’ and we are still here 2000 years later, so time continues.
Rev 10 : 5. And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that THERE SHOULD BE TIME NO LONGER:
Rev 10: 7. But in the days of THE VOICE OF THE SEVENTH, when he shall begin to sound, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
So we come back to the seventy weeks.
And in those weeks what was told to the Prophets?

Daniel 9: 24. SEVENTY WEEKS are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Daniel, was written in Aramaic, not Greek the translation is lost using the Septuagint.
A week is a week.
7620 shabuwa` { shaw-boo’-ah} or shabua` { shaw-boo’-ah} also (fem.) sh^ebu`ah { sheb-oo-aw’}

properly, pass part of 7650 as a denom. of 7651; TWOT - 2318d; n m

AV - week 19, seven.

So the question in Dan 9: 24 is put to Daniels people the Jewish nation and city. “Upon thy people and upon thy holy city!”
Did the Jews quote. ‘Finish the transgression?’ No, it got worse!
Did they make an end of sins? No it got worse!
Did they ‘make reconciliation for iniquity? No!
Did they ‘bring in everlasting righteousness? No!
Did they to seal up the vision and prophecy? No!
Did they ‘anoint the most Holy? No!

Daniel 9: 25. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment TO RESTORE AND TO BUILD JERUSALEM unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Was there a commandment ‘to restore and to build Jerusalem? No there was not one made by Cyrus!
Was there a completely different decree about BUILDING THE HOUSE OF GOD? Yes there was! The following one made by Cyrus.

Ezra 6: 4. In the first year of Cyrus the king the same Cyrus the king made a decree concerning THE HOUISE OF GOD at Jerusalem, LET THE HOUSE BE BUILDED, the PLACE where they OFFERED SACRIFICES, and let the foundations thereof be strongly laid; the height thereof threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof threescore cubits; 4With three rows of great stones, and a row of new timber: and let the expenses be given out of the king’s house:

TWO DIFFERENT DECREES.

One in Ezra 6: 4. to quote “LET THE HOUSE BE BUILDED, the PLACE where they OFFERED SACRIFICES,”

Another in Daniel 9: 25. a completely different decree. Containing “the commandment TO RESTORE AND TO BUILD JERUSALEM.”

Let me repeat them for the preterist.

From Dan 9: 25 “LET THE HOUSE BE BUILDED, the PLACE where they OFFERED SACRIFICES,”

From Ezra 6: 4. “the commandment TO RESTORE AND TO BUILD JERUSALEM.”

No application of Daniel 9: 25 can be made to the differently worded decree of Cyrus, or that time period including 70AD.
Unless a forced reading of it is made out of context, to make it fit a preconceived idea that is unsound biblically.
That is a very long bow to draw when Daniel 9: 25 is forced into a time that it has no link to! Therefore the seventy weeks are also not applicable to that historical time of Cyrus.

It's been a long while since I've been on this board. I have a great deal of catch-up reading to do. Things have changed a little from my perspective, but some things have not changed.

On one hand, I was a Full Preterist, but after studying writings from the Gnostics, I realized that Full Preterism takes away the hope of the resurrection, and denies a bodily resurrection to come. Thus, my view is as it was before I became a Full Preterist. I am now a Partial Preterist.

Having said this, allow me to answer quickly, some of the long posts made by the one in objection to my comment "Rome is the Beast".

You believe Rome was not the beast, and that is your opinion. But knowing that the original audience of Revelation, it was they who needed hope and salvation from the sufferings they endured. Tell me, if Rome was not the Beast which tortured them, or killed more than 1.5 million Jews in 68 - 70 AD, then what exactly would you classify as a "Beast"? If they did not suffer at the hands of a Beastly Kingdom, should mankind look for an evil Kingdom far worse than the Roman Empire of that time?

I'm sure you'll have an answer to this. The only enemy I believe exists now are terrorists. Yet even these are in no comparison to what Nero Caesar did, or Domitian, Trajan, Marcus, Diocletian, and so forth. In fact, no persecutions have exceeded that of the Pagan Roman Empire under Emperors who thought themselves as divine beings in their quest for Emperor worship.

Think about it. I only hope you're not one of those who believe a micro chip will be the tool of a future beast. Revelation speaks nothing of electronic advances. Those who follow this path watch too much telelvision. :o)

Joseph

On one hand, I was a Full Preterist, but after studying writings from the Gnostics, I realized that Full Preterism takes away the hope of the resurrection, and denies a bodily resurrection to come. Thus, my view is as it was before I became a Full Preterist. I am now a Partial Preterist.

Click to expand...

I don't see how one can either Partial Preterist or even Historicist myself.
Whatever happens will be over pretty quick it seems and EVERYTHING IS FINISHED at the last Bowl in Reve 16. I am coming of the view that all of Daniel is fulfilled but not sure yet.

Revelation 1:1 A-from-covering/apo-kaluyiV<602> Yeshuwa` Mashiyach, which gives to Him, the God/YAHWEH, to show to the bondservants of Him, which is behooving to be becoming in swiftness.

I don't see how one can either Partial Preterist or even Historicist myself.
Whatever happens will be over pretty quick it seems and EVERYTHING IS FINISHED at the last Bowl in Reve 16. I am coming of the view that all of Daniel is fulfilled but not sure yet.

Revelation 1:1 A-from-covering/apo-kaluyiV<602> Yeshuwa` Mashiyach, which gives to Him, the God/YAHWEH, to show to the bondservants of Him, which is behooving to be becoming in swiftness.

Click to expand...

Hello friend. Keep reading and studying is the best thing I could offer. I can only offer you my thoughts on my studies over the past decade or so. But not all will agree.

From what I know about Historicists, they tend to be from the Reformation Protestant sect aimed at blaming the Roman Catholic Church as the kingdom of the Beast. Their view stems from two things:

1. The Inquisition against the Reformers in the 13th - 15th century
2. The "possible" establishment of the RC by Simon Magus, whom the RC believes the Apostle Peter, was the first pope of Rome. Simon Magus was also called Peter, so their view might be correct, considering that there is an image of Simon Magus sitting on the Vatican with a star or ring above his head. I don't quite follow this, but it is possible. Simon Magus and St. Peter were the two which clashed before Peter's death. According to legion, Peter prayed as Simon used Demons to lift him high in the air, proving that Simon Magus was the Son of God; The Messiah. But after Peter prayed, Simon fell to the ground and nearly all his bones were broken. Simon later died somewhere in Samaria....again, this only legion in writings believed to be by the Gnostics.

The Preterist view is held to the significance of Jerusalem's destruction in 70 AD. Full Preterist assumes that all things were completed and fulfilled in 70AD. I don't believe this because the 1000 years did not start until after the Harlot was destroyed in 70 AD. The Harlot was Jerusalem, and the Beast was the Roman Empire which burned her with fire. Full Preterism also denies a future final judgment of all mankind, and also denies a bodily resurrection. (That's saved for another thread)

Rome had two Beasts: one from the sea with seven heads and 10 horns, and one from the earth which looked like a Ram and two horns of a lamb.

THE SEA BEAST

The Sea Beast was the Roman Empire under the Caesars. This matches Daniel's 4rth Kingdom with 10 horns, plus the additional little horn which subdued three before it. The 11th little horn, which over-powered the Jews, was Vespasian, who gained the throne by flattery and domination of the Jewish Revolt in 70AD, along with this two sons (Domitian and Titus: two horns of a lamb). Prior to Vespasian, there were three kings subdued within a year, in 68 AD, who were Galba, Otto, and Vitelius. After Vitelius lost his throne, he sided with Vespasian, and thus Rome was finally with an accepted king. How did Vespasian acheive what three prior to him could not?

Sea according to scripture is a picture of Gentile nations. This represented the Roman Empire under the Caesars, and the Empire itself in control of all the nations. When Nero died, the line of the Caesars had been destroyed, and Rome was without a King for one year. This caused a civil war in Rome as Galba, Otto, and Vitelius sought after the throne. Because of Nero's death, the war in Jerusalem was abandoned as Vespasian, then Roman General, left Jerusalem and returned to Rome to claim the throne.

After the three failed attempts by the three kings which were uprooted, Vespasian claims the throne, and sent his two sons Titus, with the power of the entire military combined with that of the nations, and surrounded Jerusalem with a huge wall, three totals. By 70AD, Jerusalem had been completely destroyed, victory was declared once again to Rome, and she who had been cursed on the throne, was now restored as a result of Jerusalem's defeat. Rome had been born again!

THE BEAST FROM THE EARTH

Earth, according to scripture, represents Israel. In Isaiah chapter 1, we see that "Heaven and earth" was a picture of Israel. As stated, the Flavian family (Vespasian, Titus, and Domitian) brought fame, power, and victory back to the Roman Empire by destroying Jerusalem (The land / earth). Through Israel's death, blood, and destruction, Rome had been revived. In honor of the three, Titus was built an arch in memory of him (The Arch of Titus) which exists even to this day. They also built the Roman Arena, which as we all know, was the place where many Jews and Christians met their deaths. Ironically, according to some documents, these three were worshipped as gods. And it was Vespasian who ordered the seeking-out of all Jews born in the family line of David, in order to have them all killed to prevent another rebellion. Eventually, some 60 years later, another final Jewish rebellion would occur, under a Jewish leader named Shimon Bar Kaphba, who was thought by the Jews to be the promised Messiah. Ironically, this rebellion in 132 AD also lasted 3 1/2 years, and resulted in over 800,000 thousand Jews being killed. By this time, Jews were forbidden to enter Israel.

The Beast who "once was" and "now is not" and "Yet will come" was a picture of Nero's reign returning from the dead. In 66 AD, many rumors spread that Nero would return and avenge himself upon the Senate, which sought his life and led to his suicide. The angel of John explains to him that an eighth physical king, but spiritually counted among the seven of the sea beast, would do everything in honor of the first Beast. This was Domitian, who is believed to be the one who sent John to Patmos; the only question is when this happened. Some sources show that Domitian banished John to Patmos around 66AD, but I have a very difficult time believing this. I, for one, believe this happened in his reign as Emperor. According to Eusebius, 3rd century Church Bishop, Domitian's reign ended around 98 AD, so folks such as Irenaeus (2nd century Bishop) taught that John was banished to Patmos around the mid 90's. This continues to be a heated debate.

As for Daniel's prophesy, rest assured that those visions were all fulfilled in the first century. Daniel's people met their end, as the prophesy foretold, and the seventy sevens were completed at Christ. From King Cyrus, unto the day Christ was Baptized and declared "The Anointed" completed the 69 sevens. Christ himself also shows that his Baptism by John the Baptist was His anointing, for He himself says after reading a portion of Isaiah in the assembly, "Today this has come true...." The final seven was completed either at the stoning of Stephen, which sealed the fait of the Jews, or the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Either way, we know that Daniel's people met their end, the sanctuary was destroyed (As Christ also testifies), and the Kingdom set-up in the "days of these kings [the Caesars]" came to pass. And since that time, the 4rth Beast (Roman Empire) was destroyed by the Church without lifting one single spear or sword, thus fulfilling Isaiah's prophesy regarding the swords into plowshares, and spears into pruning hooks, showing that God's army was the word of God, and His Saints the sower's of the field.

In conclusion, the Beast from the sea represented the Roman Empire of the Caesars, and the 10 horns were the provincial kings or rulers, 10 nations total. The Beast from the earth was Rome regaining power through the destruction of Jerusalem (The land), and the over-powering of the saints at the hands of the second Beast. The second Beast does everything in honor of the first beast. Ironically, both Nero Caesar, and Domitian in hebrew equate to 666. On coins, Domitian's name appears, and when translated using Gamatra, into Hebrew, his name equals 666. In the same way, the Hebrew spelling (as shown on some Jewish documents) of Nero Caesar, equals 666.

I hope this helps. I apologize for any spelling errors. I'll edit later.

God bless and peace to all.

Joseph