The End of Times

franklin · Aug 1, 2002

Originally posted by e4God
And what of Daniel's 70 weeks?
The prophecies of Revelation?
Trumpets, vials, bowls, oceans turned to blood?
Christ's triumphant return?
The final battle ?
IF not the end times, what are these ?

Hi e4god, sorry I am a little late on entering in to this thread but I am getting the impression you are very curious about the preterist position on end times events, prophecy etc..... I am somewhat new in preterism as I am approching my one year anniversary of adopting the full preterist position, I would like to refer you to an author who helped me last year with the same questions you have listed in your quote/post. He has a book called "REVELATION: KINGDOMS IN CONFLICT" the author's name is Gene Fadeley.... That book will answer a lot of questions for you as it did for me.  I would also recommend the video: "The Last Days"  .... they also just recently have come out with a new video:  "The second coming on trial" ..... I don't have that one yet, but I am thinking about ordering it soon.  When I say soon, I mean within my lifetime

http://www.bibleprophecy.com/bible_prophecy_books.html

BTW, on your list of questions.... all those things have taken place during the lifetime of those living just as Jesus said.  I'll take His word for it!  Do you believe every word that Jesus spoke?

Pastor N.B. · Aug 1, 2002

Hi eforGod,
Where did you go? :scratch:

I am not much for reading books 'about' the Word, other than the Word itself! Matt. 4:4. I see James gives a site, (that I went to) but there is to much 'human talk' in reaching a point of view for me.

Scripture alone sets my feet secure, or I do not except it until I am convinced! (See 2 Tim. 3:16's 'ALL')
Case in point: The movie 'Left Behind'. And because it takes much prayer & time to post here, (that I cannot emaile in-for future use)
I will give you a site to try that uses scripture to understand the movies 'theme'?

This is the site:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pastornb/messages

It is a 'publick' library site for me to save some of my reformatory work on.
It is not for the 'milk' fed babes or the week in heart.

Anyway, at the top of all messages it says: MSG# [ ] (that is supposed to be a blank box)

If you want to write Post No. [132] in the box & then click on the [GO] button, you will see a part one, of a two part post, on "Left Behind" ?
Part No. 2 is the next message. No. 133.

Will you agree with these missives? Maybe not, but you will find a lot to think about that is printed by our Master's Word.

Pastor N.B.

Patmosman_sga · Aug 1, 2002

Hmmm. I don't recall posting a link to a web site on this thread. Perhaps you refer to Franklin's post.

Pastor N.B. · Aug 1, 2002

Hi,
'i' stand corrected. You are right!
P/N/B

Patty · Aug 1, 2002

Originally posted by e4God
Do you suppose that the Modern Church will be as clueless at the End of This age as the Synagogue was at the end of the last one?

Will today's Church be ready? 

Or will they defend the status quo even in the face of miracles and the obvious presence of God?

 

The Modern Church is already clueless in too many things.

The Church WON'T be ready.

The Church, it seems, shows evidence that it will defend the status quo even in the face of miracles and the obvious presence of God. 

Dogma imposed on men does not result in freely given love.  You cannot require a man to love anyone.  You cannot force or oblige a man to do things for love.  You cannot threaten a man with the terror of losing his soul if he does not comply with dogma, and expect him to give the object of your dogma freely given love from the heart.

 

Patty

e4God · Aug 1, 2002

Hey all. Thanks for the posts.

I have been checking in, reading, following discussion, digesting, but have been working too many hours to do all the suggested reading, much less stop and post .

Though feeling challenged in regard to my conventional (or-whatever-you-call-it) position, I find that it takes a lot of human reasoning to support what seems to be called the Preterist position.

Can somebody flesh that out for me? Is there a good definition of Preterism here? Have a link for me?

Though not a 'trained bible scholar' I have good working knowledge of the word. 

Are there something like 3 fairly well defined schools of thought in scholarly circles re the end times teachings, or a lot more than that?  What are they and what are their main differences?

franklin · Aug 1, 2002

Originally posted by e4God
Though feeling challenged in regard to my conventional (or-whatever-you-call-it) position, I find that it takes a lot of human reasoning to support what seems to be called the Preterist position. Can somebody flesh that out for me? Is there a good definition of Preterism here? Have a link for me? 

Hi e4god,  Maybe this link will help... it's by David Curtis.....

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/paradigm.html

I hope this helps brother.......

 

also...... http://www.preteristarchive.com/

Patmosman_sga · Aug 1, 2002

Here is what I have said before. . .

The discipline of eschatology has long been maligned because of its association with bizarre "end times" scenarios and speculations. However, eschatology is not merely the study of "end times" and apocalyptic prophecy. It is the study of salvation, how it is accomplished and being accomplished; how God's plan of redemption, not only for humanity but for all of creation, is complete and being made complete.

There are two basic approaches to the question of eschatological salvation:

1) The Systematic Approach: This view is the predominant view in most of Reformed Christianity. Although there are numerous variations, this is the general approach followed by three divergent "schools" of eschatology:

(a) The Preterist School (all prophecies have been fulfilled)

(b) The Historicist School (all prophecies are being fulfilled)

(c) The Futurist School (all prophecies will be fulfilled)

The common thread in each of these three schools is an attempt to develop a systematic explanation for how God's plan of salvation was accomplished, is being accomplished, or will be accomplished. Careful attention is paid to charts, maps and timelines. All things connected with salvation--redemption, resurrection, parousia, etc.--are looked upon primarily as concepts which are, perhaps uninetentionally explained in human, materialistic terms.

2) The Incarnational Approach: This approach is presently gaining notoriety within the Anglican/Wesleyan community. It sees salvation and all things associated with it as concrete realities to be experienced in Christ who, through his life, death and resurrection, reveals decisively the eternal will and purpose of God to reconcile all things to himself. While events in human history serve as a means to point to the "end," that is, the eschatological kingdom of God toward which all of history is moving, the ultimate fulfillment of all things is Jesus Christ: God's ultimate revelation of himself. In him all things are restored, are being restored, and shall be restored; our salvation is complete, is being completed, and shall be completed. Thus, the history which this approach is most concerned with is salvation history which, unlike human history in general, is relentless in eluding any and all attempts to systematize it along a linear, chronological scale. According to the grace we have received through the power of the Holy Spirit, we must live with the history presently before us, trusting that God, in Christ, is always at work reconciling all things to himself. The completion of that work may seem nearer today than it will tomorrow, but we must trust that, in whatever degree the kingdom is apparent at any moment, that is precisely the degree which God has ordained for that moment in order that his grace may have its greatest effect in our lives and his kingdom may have its deepest impact upon the kingdoms of this world.

It should be pointed out that there are pitfalls associated with the incarnational approach. When taken to extremes, it can degenerate into a form of idealism which ultimately makes the reality of the eschatological hope merely symbolic. Taken in another direction, it can lead to a form of realized eschatology which places an undue emphasis on the present age.

Such caveats aside, however, the incarnational approach has numerous advantages over the systematic approach.

First, it avoids the either/or trap which inevitably plagues the systematic approach. Preterists, historicists and futurists are constantly arguing over the question of past vs. present vs. future fulfillment. Understanding Christ as Gods ultimate revelation of himself, and the cross as the center of Gods redemptive plan, the incarnational approach replaces either/or with both/and. This paradox preserves a decent respect for the mystery of faith. A faith free of paradox is a faith free of mystery; and a faith free of mystery is no faith at all.

Second, it avoids the excesses of the systematic approach. Consigning all of Gods mighty acts of salvation to the past or delaying a good portion of them until the future leaves us stranded in the present without any sense of Christs incarnational presence among us. It is the deepest desire of Gods heart to be Emmanuel, God with us, always and especially right now!

Third, it cultivates an awareness of the profoundly eschatological dimension of our own lives. Life in this world is a journey toward wholeness. Through the indwelling Holy Spirit, God is working within each of us to conform us to the image of Christ, in order that we may at last be able to stand blameless before him and be welcomed into the joy of his eternal kingdom. As God has decreed from the foundation of the world that all things are to be reconciled to him in Christ, so if we live our lives here in Christ, we are already participating in the ongoing fulfillment of Gods eternal plan, the completion of which is the outcome of all of history.

And, I would also add. . .

Apocalyptic imagery is often employed in ancient eschatological writings, and those writings are, in large part, prophetic in nature and provide some insight into the final outcome of history. However, the study of eschatology as a whole places these components in their proper perspective and within their proper context. Indeed, eschatology itself must be understood as only one component of a fully integrated theology, interacting along the way with such related issues as patrology, Christology, pneumatology, harmatiology and soteriology. Its specific concern is with the question of salvation: how it is complete and being made complete. Holistic eschatology addresses this question at three complementary levels: individual, corporate and cosmic.

Pastor N.B. · Aug 2, 2002

Originally posted by e4God
This seems to refer to individuals, not the church. I could be wrong here. Just wondering out loud.

Do any of you know scripture that points to a role for the church in the end times prophecies?

********

Hi,
Rev. 3 speakes of the 'seven' Virgin 'Church' denominations. (see Rev. 1:19-20 & Rev. 2:5) These are not the Great harlot or Her Daughters. And again, if God can be trusted, this is nothing new under the sun! (I should say, if we can believe God :sleep:

) It has been, and it will be again, at the end! Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15. See also Amos 5:1 & 2 for the first total fall of a Virgin denomination.

As had the first chosen Virgin denomination in Christ's day (John 1:11-12)
rejected their leader, so will the last True Virgin denomination in our day.
(I say Virgin as in Doctrine only!-see Matt. 23:2)

OK:
Now for Christ, the Word with His answer for your question? The last time/ frame of Rev. 3 has two denominations on the scene at the same time with identical Virgins doctrines. (as did Israel of old & Christ's new 'offshoot' denomination)

They are called Philadelphia & Laodicea. One will be kept of God, & the other is described as the synagogue (denomination) of 's'atan. See verse 9 ibide. Yet, they still claim doctrinal Virginity!

Verse 14-17 ibide. sorts out the two denominations. Here is what is said of Laodicea,
"I know thy works, [that thou art neither cold nor hot:] (LOVE WISE)
I would that thou wert [cold or hot.] (even the cold sinner could be reached before these next refered to ones)
So [because thou art lukewarm, , and neither cold or hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth]." A sickening love for the Master. Talk, talk, talk, yet [second place or 'beyond' in a love relationship!] Now, notice that Christ does not despute their doctrinal wisdom! Just their from 0-10 degree of love for Him... (notice that He did not say that they had not been born again! see Heb. 64-6)

"Because [thou sayest,] I am [rich,] and increased with goods, [and have the need of nothing:] (notice!) AND KNOWEST NOT THAT THOU ART [WRETCHED,] and [MISERABLE], [POOR,] [BLIND] and [NAKED]: ..."

Some will say that the next verse gives hope! Yes, [the verse] does, yet they will go the same route as Israel of old, by [free choice]. (see Isa. 5:3) They became Christless by their own self rightous nakedness!! Yet they have flawless doctrinal teachings, as did Israel of old! So said the Word of Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15

see Luke 19:41 & Matt. 23:38 "Your house (denomination) is left unto you desolate." And: as the Master was rejected, who replaced Him in Rev. 3:9?

Remember: These are not Rev. 17:5's 'Mother [of] Harlots' even.

In the Master's quickly finished for the House of God [first] as seen in 1 Peter 4:17,
Pastor N.B.

SnuP · Aug 13, 2002

Here's my take on the subject.  As the rapture draws near the church will experience a might outpouring of the Holy Spirit as prophesied by Joel.  God's glory will flood the earth and there will arise many prophets and apostles to lead the people.  They will be as those of old, carrying the full wait of God's annointing and authority, with demonstrations of God's power and love.  This will cause a great stir within the denominations as many step out to follow the presence of God, and many resist.  God's will will be honored once more as reverencial fear floods the church again.  Those who resist will raise themselves up and will lead many more astray.  Many will be won and many will be lost as God saperates the wheat from the tares.  But those who remain true untill the end will be saved.

parousia70 · Aug 13, 2002

Originally posted by SnuP
Here's my take on the subject.  As the rapture draws near the church will experience a might outpouring of the Holy Spirit as prophesied by Joel. 

Peter Said that he was an eyewitness to the fulfillment of Joel's "last days" prophesy. (Acts 2:16-17)

Are you saying it will be fulfilled again?

How many times must Joel's prophesy be fulfilled before we can accept it has been completely fulfilled?

Peter claimed infallibly that it was fulfilled and he was an eyewitness.

Who today will be able to make such an infallible claim?

You?

Me?

That brings up something interesting:

Who today is capable of infallibly claiming that any particular event is the fulfillment of prophesy?

Wasn't that an ability that was given only to the original apostles?

Pastor N.B. · Aug 13, 2002

Originally posted by SnuP
Here's my take on the subject.  As the rapture draws near the church will experience a might outpouring of the Holy Spirit as prophesied by Joel.  God's glory will flood the earth and there will arise many prophets and apostles to lead the people.  They will be as those of old, carrying the full wait of God's annointing and authority, with demonstrations of God's power and love.  This will cause a great stir within the denominations as many step out to follow the presence of God, and many resist.  God's will will be honored once more as reverencial fear floods the church again.  Those who resist will raise themselves up and will lead many more astray.  Many will be won and many will be lost as God saperates the wheat from the tares.  But those who remain true untill the end will be saved.

*****
Hi,
Do you not think that your remarks of Joel 2 & Acts 2 might be in this process even now? And what about the message in Mal.4:5, that seems perhaps in the same time frame? If I remember correctly, Christ said that John the Babtist was Elijah if one could handle that? And John was sent to Christ's people only! Even the disciples in Matt. 10:5, 6 were such commanded! The Virgin House of God FIRST. (1 Peter 4:17) And how many in this history [followed] the Master?

Christ's Word states: "And Jesus said, For judgement I am come into this world, (notice, two key Holy Spirit fullfillments!) That they which see not MIGHT SEE, and that they WHICH SEE might be MADE BLIND." John 9:39,
(spiritually also) read verse 41?

Let me just add: The Holy Spirit was to come after the Masters departure. He was to do many things, yet, [number one] was that He was to [UPLIFT CHRIST], and not speake of Himself. So, for a short time the Master was right there IN [PERSON] for ALL OF HIS PROFESSED BELIEVERS to SEE & HAVE THE MASTERS GRACE "IF" they so chose? HE WAS GOD IN PERSON! This next time around we will see Matt. 10:20 & 27 & 25 all being done through the POWER OF THE HOLY GHOST! Yet, these ones will be called such words as Beelzebub! Cults? Fanatic's? Hate mongers? UnChristlike? And on & on ????

Also, the number comparison for the wide gate & the narrow path? Does it not seem that a narrow path will find a much smaller group of these saved ones to you?

Another thought: :idea:

Surely we are seeing the rejection of the Holy Spirit in todays setting in every day print & on national T.V., as well as internet stuff. The 'Quenching & Grieving of the Holy Spirit away'. (Gen. 6:3)But as this is happening, we see the Promise from the Master in 2 Cor. 12:9 of extra grace. What 'i' am suggesting is this, perhaps the Holy Ghost is, & has, been falling all around while a great portion of the ones looking for this, do not recognize Him?

It is amazing to me, how quickly an honest seeker of truth moves forward, while a professed Christian will not even consider more truth. Try John 12:42-43 for perhaps the reason?

I did enjoy your 'take' on this.
P/N/B/

Pastor N.B. · Aug 13, 2002

SNUP:
Pastor N.B. here,
Do you see what I meant? :scratch:

(Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15)
*************************************************

Originally posted by parousia70

Peter Said that he was an eyewitness to the fulfillment of Joel's "last days" prophesy. (Acts 2:16-17)

Are you saying it will be fulfilled again?

How many times must Joel's prophesy be fulfilled before we can accept it has been completely fulfilled?

Peter claimed infallibly that it was fulfilled and he was an eyewitness.

Who today will be able to make such an infallible claim?

You?

Me?

That brings up something interesting:

Who today is capable of infallibly claiming that any particular event is the fulfillment of prophesy?

Wasn't that an ability that was given only to the original apostles?

e4God · Aug 13, 2002

OK. You have me really thinking. Examining what I thought I knew.

I still have a problem with the preterist position saying that all prophecy is fulfilled. But I can see that the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord is not some Post millenial judgement. It has taken place already if you take Acts 2 at face value.

Matthew Henry says:

(1.) The text itself that Peter quotes, v. 1721. It refers to the last days, the times of the gospel, which are called the last days because the dispensation of Gods kingdom among men, which the gospel sets up, is the last dispensation of divine grace, and we are to look for no other than the continuation of this to the end of time. Or, in the last days, that is, a great while after the ceasing of prophecy in the Old-Testament church. Or, in the days immediately preceding the destruction of the Jewish nation, in the last days of that people, just before that great and notable day of the Lord spoken of, v. 20. "It was prophesied of and promised, and therefore you ought to expect it, and not to be surprised at it; to desire it, and bid it welcome, and not to dispute it, as not worth taking notice of. The apostle quotes the whole paragraph, for it is good to take scripture entire; now it was foretold, [1.] That there should be a more plentiful and extensive effusion of the Spirit of grace from on high than had ever yet been. The prophets of the Old Testament had been filled with the Holy Ghost, and it was said of the people of Israel that God gave them his good Spirit to instruct them, Neb. 9:20. But now the Spirit shall be poured out, not only upon the Jews, but upon all flesh, Gentiles as well as Jews, though yet Peter himself did not understand it so, as appears, ch. 11:17. Or, upon all flesh, that is, upon some of all ranks and conditions of men. The Jewish doctors taught that the Spirit came only upon wise and rich men, and such as were of the seed of Israel; but God will not tie himself to their rules. [2.] That the Spirit should be in them a Spirit of prophecy; by the Spirit they should be enabled to foretel things to come, and to preach the gospel to every creature. This power shall be given without distinction of sex-now only your sons, but your daughters shall prophesy; without distinction of age-both your young men and your old men shall see visions, and dream dreams, and in them receive divine revelations, to be communicated to the church; and without distinction of outward condition-even the servants and handmaids shall receive of the Spirit, and shall prophesy (v. 18); or, in general, men and women, whom God calls his servants and his handmaids. In the beginning of the age of prophecy in the Old Testament there were schools of the prophets, and, before that, the Spirit of prophecy came upon the elders of Israel that were appointed to the government; but now the Spirit shall be poured out upon persons of inferior rank, and such as were not brought up in the schools of the prophets, for the kingdom of the Messiah is to be purely spiritual.

While this supports some of what has been discussed here, it does not say that this outpouring ended (fulfilled = past tense) But Matthew Henry says it continues until the end of time ???

How then shall we understand end of time? This phrase is not in the NASB.  Not that this is the only bible, but it is the easiest one for me to search.

I had to ask if Revelation speaks to this same day, the Great and Terrible day of the Lord...  I checked.  It does not.  Hmmm....

According to the preterist position, does this mean we are presently in the millenial reign? Christ has returned in each of us and we reign with him??? (A personal wondering of some time)

Or have we passed even beyond that?

<DT>Then what do you do with 2 Peter 3:10 ?

<DT>

<DT>

[But the <B>day of the Lord</B> will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

<DT>

<DT>Is this only an allegory for the way an individual believer becomes a new creation when born again ?</DT>

Patmosman_sga · Aug 13, 2002

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost continues to empower the Church for witness and ministry to this day. However, it is stretching things a bit to suggest that the "last days" which began at Pentecost continue indefinitely. If the outpouring of the Spirit was a sign of the commencement of the "last days," then it is obvious that a particular period of history was coming to an end. It makes perfect sense to say that the period in question was the age of the Old Covenant, which ended with the fall of Jerusalem.

I grow rather weary in explaining 2 Peter 3:10, but here's an article on that and related texts: http://www.iosjpatmos.org/baptismdayoflord.htm

Pastor N.B. · Aug 13, 2002

<DT>Then what do you do with 2 Peter 3:10 ?

********
-THIEF IN THE NIGHT??-
V. 10 in part: "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; [in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise], ..." Sounds future!
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a [great noise], and the elments shall melt with fervent heat, [the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up]."

1 Cor. 14:32 tells us that.. "The prophets [are subject to the prophets.]"
(wish we were , huh?)

Now: Darkness & Night?? Past or Furture? Remember Christ's day first. 1 Peter 4:17 & Christ's day in our day, & again FIRST! 1 Peter 4:17

Darkness or light?? "But of the [times and seasons, [brethern] ye have no need that I write unto you. (some at least?) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night" Wow that is plain huh? :sleep:

Which ones are we? Then, we stop at that verse, for that proves our point, some might say, huh?

But in verse four we 'see' that there is more... "But ye, [brethern], are not in darkness, that, that day should overtake [you] as a thief. Ye are [all the children of the light, and the children of the day]: we are not of the night, nor of darkness." verse 4 & 5 ibide. (compare 1 Jn. 4:6)

Over on the site below is a two part series on the movie "Left Behind"

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pastornb/messages

If one were to go there, there is at the top of every message a box at the top right side. It looks like this, MSG#[___] {GO} <a go button.
If you insert the number 132 in the box, the first page will come up. The second page is number 133. (just two parts)

I think that a sincere person looking for truth will find these bible verses of much interest.
Pastor N.B.

SnuP · Aug 13, 2002

So Jesus has been born of a virgin before and Jesus has died on the cross bearing the weight of the world on His sholders before.  He has taken the keys of death hell and the grave before.  I guess that means that saten stole them back.  So He had his beard plucked out and was beaten with a cat of nine tails before.  So He has been a spotless lamb paying for the sins of mankind before.  why would He have to do everything twice?  Wasn't it good enough the first time?

Ecclesiastes:  solomun is trying to show that man can do nothing in himself, that all his efforts are folly, even his ability to create is limited by what God has already created, thus there is nothing new under the sun.  You have taken the verse out of context and built your own religion.  Keep reading and I will show you. 

Verse 2, Utterly meaningless!  Everything is meaningless.  Does that mean that salvation is meaningless?  No, but rather mans efforts are meaningless.

Verse 8, All things are wearisome.  Does that mean serving God is wearisome, that displaying God's love is wearisome?  No, but rather, all of mans efforts without God are wearisome.

Verse 15, What is twisted cannot be straightened; what is lacking cannot be counted.  Isaiah 40:4  Every valley shall be made low:  and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5  And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together:  for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

God has the ability to do what man cannot.  Even do something new.

SnuP · Aug 13, 2002

Notice in all of the scriptures sighted about the Day that there is reference to distructive forces released upon the earth.  The porpose of which is to bring mankind to repentence.  I have not seen such catostrophic events that lead to repentence, nor has history.  How then can any of you think that all of this has been fulfilled.  Peter, in Acts 2, did not even say that it was all fulfilled, the prophesy of Joel will continue to be work out until the Day of the Lord, which could only be God pouring out His judgement upon the earth.  The same judgement that most of Revelations speaks about.

Mathew 24:

Click to expand...

   13  But he that endues unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preaced in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come... 21 For there shall be geat tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesn be saved (survive):  but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened... 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets (psychics), and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect... 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Taken in context, the generation refered to hear is the one that shall see all these things.  Not the generation that Jesus was directly talking to for they did not see these things.  Also notice that the last verse says that the prophesy will be fulfilled over a length of time.

Pastor N.B. · Aug 13, 2002

Originally posted by SnuP
So Jesus has been born of a virgin before and Jesus has died on the cross bearing the weight of the world on His sholders before.  He has taken the keys of death hell and the grave before.  I guess that means that saten stole them back.  So He had his beard plucked out and was beaten with a cat of nine tails before.  So He has been a spotless lamb paying for the sins of mankind before.  why would He have to do everything twice?  Wasn't it good enough the first time?
**************
Perhaps we are all from a different planet? Try Eph. 6:12 If so just deleat the post here.
And that is not meant in sarcasm. I have always believed & still do, that ALL Scripture is the Word of God. Not just the so-called 'four' Gospels. And that 2 Tim. 3:16 included the Word ALL, for the complete 66 books. To be used for several reasons, doctrine as one reason.

Your understanding of scripture does not change the verses in Eccl. 3:9-10 or Eccl. 3:15 that states:
"The thing that hath been, it is that which [shall be;] and that which [is done is that which shall be done:] (and it is the Word that states) [and there is no new thing under the sun]. Is there [anything whereof it may be said, see this is new?] [it hath been already of old time, which was before us.]"
Thank God that the Master answers this Himself, before any here have the oppurtunity to garble it up!
But it seems clear that some are calling the Word of God a LIE?

Look friend: If it does not happen a second time, GOD TELLS US! Your above missive sounds like Rev. 3:16-17 to me. "Because thou sayest.."!

Of course there was a rainbow put in the sky, & God said that there would not be another world flood! And that: "sin would not arise a [second] time" Na. 1:9. (or it would have!) And what about the Matt. 24:14 verse? God would be a liar if this was not a repeat! Read Rom. 10:18, Paul states inspiration! "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound [went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world]" If this is Truth, why did God void out Matt. 24:14? [[Or why did He not come at this time?]] Because the 'prophets are subject unto the prophets' (1 Cor. 13:32) It was to happen a [[second time]], unless He told in His total Word differently! (there are fewer of these than history repeats)

Now, about your perhaps sarcasm above? I am not going to do all of your homework, but read Rom. 6:10. "For in that He died, he died unto [sin ONCE]: .." Heb. 7:27 "... for this He [did once, when He offered up Himself]."

Matt. 24 is to be twice repeated with [another stated] exception, as stated by the Master Himself, and Paul, in verse 22 ibide. & Rom. 9:28, that this last time around it will be cut short in rightousness. (no more 39 years from 34AD-like to the 70 AD slaughter) Then even Eze. 9 tells of THIS TWICE REPEATED SLAUGHTER of His past Virgin denomination! (true Fold in doctrine only)

Even the Sabbath day flight prayer of verse 20-21 of Matt. 24 will be a repeat! But remember that this was the Masters Own ex/Virgin denomination here. See Matt. 10:5-6 & the Matt. 25 Virgins!

Now some say that the Word has a different meaning? Well that is your freedom of choice. But lets just look at Eccl. 3:15. If fact, lets stray for a second, for the last couple verses in the Words ending? (Rev. 22) That of ADDING TO OR REMOVING FROM THE WORD, WHICH REQUIRES THE PERSONS NAME TO BE REMOVED FROM THE [BOOK OF LIFE]. You look it up for exact wording. Is that even something new??? God states that it is not! Lets see verse 14 & then verse 15 of Eccl. 3.

"I [know that], whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [NOTHING CAN BE PUT TO IT, NOR ANY THING TAKEN FROM IT].." (sounds familar to me!)

Now verse 15 ibide. "That which [hath been IS NOW; AND THAT WHICH IS TO BE HATH ALREADY BEEN]; And [God REQUIRETH THAT WHICH IS PAST]." But some say, NOT SO LORD! Have it your own way!

In the Master's quickly finished for the House of God, First, (1 Peter 4:17)
P/N/B/

SnuP · Aug 13, 2002

I will say this real clear for you.

There is nothing new (of man) under the sun.  (sin, weakness, fear, hope, pride, love, and lust, etc.)

Don't tell me that I'm adding words in for the rest of the context shows that it is talking about what man has in himself.  This should be obvious to you.  Are you so eager to prove you theology that you over look the obvious.

The End of Times

Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

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