Why are Manger scenes not graven images?

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Rick Otto

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No sense in arguing over it.

"Why are Manger scenes not graven images?"

>>They ARE graven Images, who told you they weren't, & why would you think they aren't?


"Many Protestants (not all) condemn us Catholics for having "graven images", which are condemned in the Bible."

>>I DON'T condemn you. That is something we do to ourselves, but I WOULD advise against them if my advice were asked.

"And yet these same Protestants have manger scenes on their lawns and even in their churches. Why is it wrong to have a statue of Mary, Joseph, or Jesus unless it is in a manger scene at Christmas time?"

>>It's wrong then too. Don't get confused by what people do, focus on the commandments!

P~Dove says:
"I doubt if you have ever met a single Catholic, Orthodox who have told you they worship any statue or the person it depicts, unless it is of the Lord, himself."

>>>So then it is okay to worship a statue, if you pick the right one!?!:thumbsup:
How will I know which one is the right one? His hair is perfect?:D
I have never met a single OR married Catholic or Orthodox who was willing to admit ignorance or hypocrasy in the use of 'holy hardware' or 'pious periphanalia' to accessorize their faith with flair.
But in all fairness, I have to admit I gave up trying a while back.:sorry:
 
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ArcticFox

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****Supposed photo of Jesus' impression on the Shroud of Turin, deleted by ArcticFox****
:bow:


I wouldn't worship the shroud if I were you.

If you want to worship who you think appears on the shroud, that's your greatest purpose in life, and is a wonderful thing.

I just wouldn't worship the shroud. Certainly posting a picture and then immediately posting a 'worship' emoticon is probably misleading as to what you are worshipping.

I'll assume you meant the worship to Christ, not the questionable shroud?
 
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PaulAckermann

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I'll never have a Nativity scene again if Catholics will drop the stuff they do. Deal? :thumbsup:


No deal.

From my perspective, there is nothing wrong with the Nativity scene, or Catholic statues.

But from your perspective, Cathoic statues are wrong, and you have not shown how this is any different than a Nativity scene, so then you should give it up not because of some deal, but out of obedience to God.

Take the log out of your own eye, and then maybe we Catholics will at least respect your sincerity.
 
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BigNorsk

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Well, I would say that Catholics are basically correct that the prohibition on graven images isn't actually a prohibition on all statues and such because we do see things like the snake on the pole and the cherubims and such.

But rather we need to see what we are told not to do. We are told not to bow down to them or to serve them. Whenever people bow down to or serve statues and such in the Bible, that is when God is angry because idolatry is being committed.

So we see the snake on the pole being set up so people can look at it and be saved from a snake bite. Obviously looking at it is not idolatry. Yet we see it getting destroyed later because people have started to worship it.

What we never see in the Bible is this idea that when one bows down to an object that it isn't really the object it's what the object represents and even if what it represents isn't even God, you are still worshipping God and not the object because it all flows right through the object and what the object represents to God.

So if you see some Protestants bowing down before a manger scene or serving it, then please just go ahead and destroy it so that they could be saved from their idolatry. Thank you in advance.

Marv
 
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Peaceful Dove

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No sense in arguing over it.

"Why are Manger scenes not graven images?"

>>They ARE graven Images, who told you they weren't, & why would you think they aren't?


"Many Protestants (not all) condemn us Catholics for having "graven images", which are condemned in the Bible."

>>I DON'T condemn you. That is something we do to ourselves, but I WOULD advise against them if my advice were asked.

"And yet these same Protestants have manger scenes on their lawns and even in their churches. Why is it wrong to have a statue of Mary, Joseph, or Jesus unless it is in a manger scene at Christmas time?"

>>It's wrong then too. Don't get confused by what people do, focus on the commandments!

P~Dove says:
"I doubt if you have ever met a single Catholic, Orthodox who have told you they worship any statue or the person it depicts, unless it is of the Lord, himself."

>>>So then it is okay to worship a statue, if you pick the right one!?!:thumbsup:
How will I know which one is the right one? His hair is perfect?:D
I have never met a single OR married Catholic or Orthodox who was willing to admit ignorance or hypocrasy in the use of 'holy hardware' or 'pious periphanalia' to accessorize their faith with flair.
But in all fairness, I have to admit I gave up trying a while back.:sorry:

Part of the problem with these online forums is the problem of clear communication.
I think you read my post incorrectly. I hi-lighted the part you missed.:)
 
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Peaceful Dove

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Your assertion is ridiculous.

With all due respect, it is even more ridiculous for folks to assume that they know that we (catholic/orthodox) worship saints, statues, icons, etc. in the face of our denial of that act. We repeatedly say we do not worship and many folks here insist we do not know what we do.

THAT, is ridiculous.
 
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Rick Otto

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meaning none, judging by your previous mocking posts!

no problem, as long as you take what you dish.

I accept your correction of my reading, emphasis is difficult in text.

Denial of fact can often indicate being in denial, instead of actualy refuting alleged facts.

Even if you're not technicaly worshipping the image, shouldn't you remove the 'stumbling block' in consideration of your 'weaker brothers'?

The technicality I object to (worship/veneration - tomato/tomahto) is owing to my broader definition of worship.

So ridiculous is as ridiculous does, but ridicule will not win converts or convince skeptics.
 
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Miss Shelby

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I used to attend a charismatic Protestant Church. It was barren of any graven images, save for a teeny tiny lil ole cross on a brass pole. One day, a friend of mine showed up to Church with an atheist friend of hers. She'd invited her for evangelism purposes and wanted her to see how great the people were and service.

So the service goes on like usual, very high energy, alot of worshiping Christ through praise and raising of hands, some people knelt down if they felt led, others clapped --but whatever the case may have been, it was clear that everyone in this Church was worshiping Christ and was excited about it.

After the service, my Christian friend asked her atheist friend what she thought of the serivce. Her response was : 'well, it was okay I guess, but I really couldn't figure out what all of those people were waving their hands to? What were they doing? And then I saw it, it was that teeny little Cross which I could hardly see up on the back of the stage and I thought --oh, okay, now I see what they're doing, they're waving to that cross.'

Obviously, she was misunderstanding things, much like some folks here in this thread.

Anyone who knew better knew those people were worshipping the Lord, not the cross and all it took was a little explaining from my friend and myself and the girl accepted that.

It's easy for me to see how it can be misconception, but when Catholics and Orthodox folks, and even some Charismatic Protestants explain what they're doing and the explanation is dismissed and ignored, not only is that rude it's also very ignorant.

Michelle
 
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KEPLER

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Many Protestants (not all) condemn us Catholics for having "graven images", which are condemned in the Bible.

And yet these same Protestants have manger scenes on their lawns and even in their churches. Why is it wrong to have a statue of Mary, Joseph, or Jesus unless it is in a manger scene at Christmas time?
Because Jesus Christ really came in the flesh, and human eyes really saw him, human hands really touched him.

To apply the commandment against graven images to Christ is to deny the incarnation.
 
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Miss Shelby

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Even if you're not technicaly worshipping the image, shouldn't you remove the 'stumbling block' in consideration of your 'weaker brothers'?
No. We shouldn't change our worship practices because non Catholics reject them. That's just plain silly-willy.
 
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ModernDaySpyridon

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Even if you're not technicaly worshipping the image, shouldn't you remove the 'stumbling block' in consideration of your 'weaker brothers'?

Let's not rip terms violently out of their contexts, shall we?

And I'm not sure how much more clear we could be on this point, but I'll try...

It is not that we are not "technically" worshiping icons...

We aren't worshiping them AT ALL!

:doh:
 
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Davis

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As I said earlier, I do believe that Protestants worship the Nativity Scene and also crosses. I use to be a Protestant but I left the Protestant denomination because of some of this. I know lots and lots of ex Protestants in the Catholic Church who will testify to this. There are a few other items they worship too.
That is not in the Bible.
Where in the Bible does it say you should worship the Nativity Scene or the cross??? Huh?
Please give me a scripture.
That is a load of crap I might say.
I don't know one person that worships nativity scenes or crosses................

That is ridiculous.
 
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Peaceful Dove

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meaning none, judging by your previous mocking posts!

no problem, as long as you take what you dish.

I accept your correction of my reading, emphasis is difficult in text.

Denial of fact can often indicate being in denial, instead of actualy refuting alleged facts.

Even if you're not technicaly worshipping the image, shouldn't you remove the 'stumbling block' in consideration of your 'weaker brothers'?

The technicality I object to (worship/veneration - tomato/tomahto) is owing to my broader definition of worship.

So ridiculous is as ridiculous does, but ridicule will not win converts or convince skeptics.

You are wrong again!
When I said "with all due respect", I meant it.
And, my posts were not meant to be mocking but teasing or humorous. I am a former Protestant and I know very well that Protestants do not worship nativities or crosses.
It is my sense of humor that must have gone astray here.

I do believe I can take what I dish out. I am not a sensitive youngster as you can see by my age.

Please explain what you mean about "removing the stumbling block". I think you mean, remove the statues from our homes and churches but am not fully sure you do. Please make it a little clearer to me so I might comment.

I do apologize for allowing you to think I was disrepecting you and beg your forgiveness.
 
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Davis

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WELL, put like that, I am inclined to believe you.

If I used your words about us Catholics, do you think some of the folks here would believe me???;)
I never accused you of worshipping things.
Thats problem around here. Everybody stereotypes people too much.
 
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midnightbirdgirl

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Beg pardon, but they had MYTHOLOGICAL gods, not human statutes.:)
Example; Venus, Zeus or what not. They indeed were their gods. It was Christianity that removed them from this....
but the 'mythology' renamed, became a fiction instead of the seriousness they held it as prior.
:wave:


:sigh: God did not mean we could not use Heavenly reminders.
HE said not to make 'gods' we worship so IE...[in other words] dont create a god or gods and worship them.

This is not to be confused with...'looking towards Heaven..'
As Christ said to do.

What better reminder than to think on Heaven when we see our role models and other rememberances of Jesus?

I think an ABSENSE of icons, statutes, and religious items allows our minds to be distracted from the TRUE GOD, and we then give over our worship to worldly materials.

Hey, if you are not givena constant reminder...you might be likely to be more distracted.

EI........glued to the TV, or in some situtations things that are very bad for you...

WHEN I see a statue of Jesus or Mary... I feel I should pray and think about the Lord.

To suggest Catholics make graven images to worship is way way off the mark.

AND I wish ppl would stop stating as if fact, that we do these things.
All I quoted was scripture. You can argue with it if you like. I do not need an explanation of what the Word says, thank you none-the-less. It is clear:

Leviticus 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 4:23
Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.

It is clear over and over again. I need no reminders of what Christ did. He is with me always. God made heaven so I can lift my head and pray. Again, I am going strictly by what scripture says. If that is not sufficient for you, that is up to you. But it is enough for me. I have no idea what Jesus, looks like. The bible gives us no indication and I think guessing, and making Jesus in ones own image is pretty dangerous. My opinion, you do not have to agree. The statue you gaze upon could actually be the likeness of who knows what?
MBG
 
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